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blckbx
12-29-2016, 03:42 PM
I'm in the uk and looking for a good bench top grinder for tool grinding and finishing. I've got a decent general purpose grinder/wire wheel setup but I am struggling to find something with a decent 'table' that can be set to create the desired angles for grinding your own HSS tooling.

Any recommendations?

BCRider
12-29-2016, 03:58 PM
A few options. A basic purpose made grinder for doing what you're after is something similar to this dual cup stone grinder;

http://www.grizzly.com/products/Heavy-Duty-Tool-Grinder/H7762

Just find a local British outlet for this Asian product.

Another option since you will soon have your lathe back together is to pick up a reasonably decent basic bench grinder for a lower cost and on the lathe make a really nice fitted flange that swaps out for the useless cup washer and which fits a cup stone of this style. Then make your own table in the shop that mimics or is better than the angle and spacing setting of this grinder. The other side of the grinder can be fitted with some other wheel option as well. In effect with a little effort you can make a basic bench top grinder into a tool grinder.

The trade off is all about time and money.

Of course if you're flush you could look into other options that are more advanced and cost a LOT more.

blckbx
12-29-2016, 04:44 PM
A few options. A basic purpose made grinder for doing what you're after is something similar to this dual cup stone grinder;

http://www.grizzly.com/products/Heavy-Duty-Tool-Grinder/H7762

Just find a local British outlet for this Asian product.

Another option since you will soon have your lathe back together is to pick up a reasonably decent basic bench grinder for a lower cost and on the lathe make a really nice fitted flange that swaps out for the useless cup washer and which fits a cup stone of this style. Then make your own table in the shop that mimics or is better than the angle and spacing setting of this grinder. The other side of the grinder can be fitted with some other wheel option as well. In effect with a little effort you can make a basic bench top grinder into a tool grinder.

The trade off is all about time and money.

Of course if you're flush you could look into other options that are more advanced and cost a LOT more.

Just what I want!

You would think you could find a similar product in the UK but I've yet to find one ?

EddyCurr
12-29-2016, 05:53 PM
As an interim measure, consider adding a Veritas Grinder Tool Rest (sku: 5M23.01) to your existing bench grinder and fabricating a few simple guides/jigs to position tools at frequently-used angles.

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=32973&cat=1,43072,45938

Then keep watch for a Baldor Tool & Cutter grinder, its Rockwell equivalent or perhaps UK/Euro versions of this type of grinder.

I agree that it is surprising that Arc Euro Trade does not appear to offer the machine currently sold by Grizzly (which was also available through HF several years ago.)

.

boslab
12-29-2016, 05:57 PM
Ive not seen them in the uk yet either, whilst they are generic over the pond, nothing like that is available here, you'd struggle to go out and actually buy a 123 block on a weekday, yes available mail order but locally no way, there a firm on eBay that has started selling woodworking and metalworking kit from Austria, they do some actually very nice lathes, aparently made in Austria, they have a range of grinders, I'll go find the link,
Mark
No tool grinder I'm afraid, could do with one myself
Sorry
M

BCRider
12-29-2016, 06:25 PM
If that sort of stuff is seriously that hard to find you might be locked into making your own wheel mount flange on the lathe and making up your own table to use in conjunction with a basic bench grinder. Once the lathe is running it's really not a big job to make up a really nice light press fit flange that will run true and to then make up a nice rest that has some settings for angles and the like. I've done a couple of such things over the years. Not with angle scales on them but items that are WAY nicer to use than the cheezy sheet metal rests that attach to the sheet metal guards. It sure doesn't need to be as crazy fancy as a Quorn or anything like that. Or at least making something that fancy can wait for later on.

John Stevenson
12-29-2016, 07:14 PM
This one.

http://www.chesterhobbystore.com/lathe-tool-grinder-5307-p.asp

Or this ?

http://www.hemingwaykits.com/acatalog/Worden_Mk3_Tool___Cutter_Grinder.html

Couple of grinding rests for normal grinders.

http://www.axminster.co.uk/search/?q=bench%20grinder&nR[visibility_search][=][0]=1&

BCRider
12-29-2016, 07:33 PM
That first link is 500 Pounds for THAT! ? ! ? ! ? GOOD GRIEF!!!!! It's a bit of a toy with nothing much for a table but at a King's ransom of a price ! ! ! !

The Worden kit looks somewhat promsing but that's a LOT of machine to just grind a few HSS tool bits. And it IS a kit with some considerable work needed before it is ready to use I suspect.

And finally in the last link I see that they have the Veritas rest further down the page. But here again knowing how much 50 Pounds is and how easily a similar rest is made in even a casual home shop I just have to shake my head. When I got mine I paid about 1/3 of that price given our conversions and even then it was a case of "what the hell....". I later turned out a cheapie from some scrap 1/8 steel, a door hinge a few bits of 1/2x1/4 and some scraps of 1/4" all thread. Total cost even if I had to buy all of it would have been under 5 bucks.

I appreciate that Sir John is trying to be helpful. But for me those links just confirms that you both are better off with a DIY table and jigs to run with the table and base it off a basic two wheel bench grinder.

Ohio Mike
12-29-2016, 07:49 PM
Just what I want!

You would think you could find a similar product in the UK but I've yet to find one ?

Do consider there are very limited choices for aluminum oxide wheels on the Baldor and clone tool grinders. They're intended to be carbide grinders so you'll mostly find silicon carbide wheels. The most common wheel you can find is a 46K others are much harder to find and are expensive for what they are.

waumbek
12-29-2016, 08:39 PM
I just finished the acute tool sharpening system from Eccentric Engineering this week and am quite pleased with it. So far I've been sharpening lathe tool bits with it and it does marvelously. It will also sharpen end mills which I've yet to try out but I've no doubt it will perform quite well. Gary of Eccentric has some nice youtube videos to take a look at. Here's my effort just finished and then mounted on my grinder:

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m221/waumbek/acute2b.jpg (http://s105.photobucket.com/user/waumbek/media/acute2b.jpg.html)

and:

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m221/waumbek/acurite.jpg (http://s105.photobucket.com/user/waumbek/media/acurite.jpg.html)

I have to say that Gary's prints and kit of parts are among the best I have ever seen and not too dear. Shipping time to the states was about a week, he also sells in the uk and may have a distributor there. Usual disclaimer here, I'm not part of his business, just a very satisfied customer.

cheers, Charles Morrill

EddyCurr
12-29-2016, 11:30 PM
waumbek, thank you for posting. That turned out quite nicely.

BCRider. I posted a suggestion about the Veritas with the thought that if the OP was disinclined or in a hurry he could buy one, but implicit was the notion that having provided a link to an image, a motivated person could build their own from materials at hand.

I'll repeat that it seems an oversight that AET hasn't done a deal with Central Machinery to improve and import their 6" Tool Grinder. I bought one years ago from HF when these sold for less than 100. HF moved aside, leaving the market to Grizzly and Enco/MSCDirect who continue to offer the same basic grinder currently for 325-400. One would think there might be some money to be made while fulfilling a need?

Lastly. Blckbx, consider calling around to machinery dealers to inquire about used Baldor 500 series, Rockwell 23-501 series and equivalent tool grinders. I don't know whether the Baldor and Rockwell models made their way to the UK, but with the shift to insert tooling I imagine whatever machinery was used to sharpen HSS there in the past is becoming redundant.

.

dian
12-30-2016, 12:46 AM
those (grizzly type) grinders are a waste of money and not very practical in the end. find a decent benchtop grinder or balance one that you have. put it on a flat base, mdf is good enough. then make a little table that can be adjusted to different angles with precision similar to a sine plate. make contraptions of your choise to guide/attach tools to it. now you can moove the table from one side to the other, the face of the wheels or a second grinder you set up for honing/polishing taking advantage of the fact that by shimming the table you can vary the angle just so slightly to just hone the edge of the tools if you wish.

my version:

http://i973.photobucket.com/albums/ae218/romandian/x094.jpg (http://s973.photobucket.com/user/romandian/media/x094.jpg.html)

elf
12-30-2016, 01:19 AM
Is this (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/U2-Universal-Cutter-Grinder-Grinding-Machine-for-mini-cnc-router-tool-bits/32780538734.html?spm=2114.01010208.3.1.wxwz6v&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_4_10065_10 068_10000009_10084_10083_10080_10082_10081_10060_1 0061_10062_10056_10055_10037_10054_10059_10032_100 99_10078_10079_10077_427_426_10103_10073_10102_100 96_10052_10050_10107_10106_10051,searchweb201603_2 ,afswitch_4&btsid=76a1dfff-d00f-4309-a292-c569f405fa11) what you're looking for?

EddyCurr
12-30-2016, 01:39 AM
those (grizzly type) grinders are a waste of money and not very practical in the end. I disagree.

Tool grinders like the Baldor 500, Rockwell 23-501, Grizzly H7762, MSCDirect 32739245 and others of this style all offer several useful features. These include side-facing grinding wheels (with shielding), reversible motors, mitre gauges, tilting tables, coolant pots w/ flow valve, coolant catch trays, work lamps and so on.

The import versions of these grinders have been pretty thoroughly discussed here back in the days when HF was offering them for under 100. There are some YT videos from the era with useful tune-up tips. (Whether the current import models offered at upwards of 400 have had their rough edges smoothed off is something I cannot speak to.)

.

BCRider
12-30-2016, 01:39 AM
Is this what you're looking for?


That's a helluva deal for those of us on this side of the pond. But the shipping price to England might add a considerable sting to the price.

EddyCurr
12-30-2016, 01:46 AM
Is this (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/U2-Universal-Cutter-Grinder-Grinding-Machine-for-mini-cnc-router-tool-bits/32780538734.html?spm=2114.01010208.3.1.wxwz6v&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_4_10065_10 068_10000009_10084_10083_10080_10082_10081_10060_1 0061_10062_10056_10055_10037_10054_10059_10032_100 99_10078_10079_10077_427_426_10103_10073_10102_100 96_10052_10050_10107_10106_10051,searchweb201603_2 ,afswitch_4&btsid=76a1dfff-d00f-4309-a292-c569f405fa11) what you're looking for?Possibly not.

Mr Stevenson held forth quite extensively on the short-comings of such machines back in 2013


Universal T & C Grinder Shortcomings (http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/61461-Universal-T-amp-C-grinder-shortcomings) 2013.11.17

.

BCRider
12-30-2016, 01:52 AM
.....

BCRider. I posted a suggestion about the Veritas with the thought that if the OP was disinclined or in a hurry he could buy one, but implicit was the notion that having provided a link to an image, a motivated person could build their own from materials at hand......
.

Pictures that inspire to make something are always good.

It's just that price in Sir John's link made my jaw just about fall off my face. Mind you I don't feel that there is any way that LV's grinder rest is worth the $50 Cdn they are asking for it either. I think I recall buying mine only a few years ago for $30. And even then it was a gulp and a little voice in the back of my head saying "oh, what the hell...".

EddyCurr
12-30-2016, 02:13 AM
Perhaps you noticed, but one offering combined the Veritas Grinder Tool Rest together with an optional jig. Nearby was the Veritas Tool Rest by itself for a less exorbitant price (35.46 ~ C$58.70). Then there was a more expensive non-Veritas combo version lower down on the page.

With the means, inclination and desire one can certainly put together a suitable facsimile for much less than what a Veritas sells for. There is still the issue of conventional bench grinder wheels only being suitable for grinding on the circumference, compared to the wheels for a tool grinder, but grinding on the circumference hasn't been a deal-breaker for countless other people.

Edit: non-Veritas is more not less expensive.

.

metalmagpie
12-30-2016, 04:25 AM
Can you get your hands on the Rudy Kouhoupt video on grinding lathe tools? He has a very simple and elegant design for a grinding rest. It was probably written up in "Home Shop Machinist" years ago if you have back issues.

metalmagpie

Circlip
12-30-2016, 05:24 AM
Since the O/P just wants to waft a bit of tool steel across a grinding wheel he should look at Harold Halls tool grinding rest. Will probably do more than capability of poster.

Regards Ian.

flylo
12-30-2016, 08:00 AM
[QUOTE=BCRider;1088626]A few options. A basic purpose made grinder for doing what you're after is something similar to this dual cup stone grinder;

http://www.grizzly.com/products/Heavy-Duty-Tool-Grinder/H7762

Harbor Freight sold the same one for about $100 a few years ago. Keith Fenner ha a YouTube on how to balance a HF one. I bought one the 2 name brands so it's still on the shelf in the box.

softtail
12-30-2016, 09:14 AM
A search for 'bench grinder' on Ebay UK brings up many interesting options.

blckbx
12-30-2016, 02:04 PM
A search for 'bench grinder' on Ebay UK brings up many interesting options.

Thousands of variations of bench grinders but none with a decent graduated table.:( (without spending a fortune)

Lots of good advice here and the conclusion is; make one.

Sigh. I'll put it on the list.

blckbx
12-30-2016, 02:26 PM
Since the O/P just wants to waft a bit of tool steel across a grinding wheel he should look at Harold Halls tool grinding rest. Will probably do more than capability of poster.

Regards Ian.

Absolutely, I do need to do some accurate 'wafting' ASAP. I always appreciate that Yorkshiremen will take the time to imply other peoples shortcomings. Please don't trouble yourself again.

EddyCurr
12-30-2016, 03:22 PM
All in good fun.

In case you are not already aware, the tool grinding rests of Mr Hall's that Circlip suggested are discussed in "Tool and Cutter Sharpening" by Harold Hall, Workshop Practices Series #38. Mr Hall's website features simple and advanced versions.


Grinding Rest, Simple (http://homews.co.uk/page146.html)

Grinding Rest, Advanced (http://homews.co.uk/page145.html)

I believe he also has a page discussing usage, but will leave you to locate same.

.

thaiguzzi
12-30-2016, 11:07 PM
I've got a Stent T&CG. Love it. Its a downsized version of a Clarkson basically, bench mounted, and a small footprint. Show up from time to time on UK Ebay, often as unfinished projects (same as mine 175), casting kit is still available from Blackgates i believe. Nice bit of kit and far superior to the dreaded Quorn...

Black Forest
12-31-2016, 05:00 AM
Now that the OP has received several valid replies and options I will take this thead to the side tracked territory!

Have any of you all that are whinning about the price of some of the tools in the supplied links ever brought any product to market? The costs for administration and marketing make up a substantial portion of the price. Sure the cost of the raw materials might be a small fraction of the overall price and as a HSM'er yes most all of it could be made for 5 cents on the dollar. BUT that ain't how a business works.

Do any of you know what it costs for a business to write and post just one letter? Think about the costs of a business before you criticize to hard about price. And remember Christmas has come and gone so Santa is history for another year. Now you have to pay for what you want no gifts!

elf
12-31-2016, 01:55 PM
Who needs a grinder when you can have one of these? (http://www.jimbodetools.com/Rare-And-Exquisite-Holtzapffel-Goniostat-In-Its-Original-Mahogany-Case-With-Ivory-Pulls-p12335.html)

Alistair Hosie
12-31-2016, 04:36 PM
These are expensive in my sincere opinion. Especially the home made ones with the flimsy tin can table .
Elf showed the u2 Nice green model makes most sense overall pricewise to me . I bought mine recently as I mostly always do buying used industrial full cabinet model and thereby having the best bang for the buck and also you already know it is a tried and well tested machine. You use your common sense and buy one from a firm where the owners, hopefully were also the daily users, and they took better care of their own stuff doesn't always work that way. Good luck John S, looks like a bought well used one.Alistair

J Tiers
12-31-2016, 06:02 PM
Dian: That red thing in your picture with the wheel on it is a freaking hazard.



....

Have any of you all that are whinning about the price of some of the tools in the supplied links ever brought any product to market? The costs for administration and marketing make up a substantial portion of the price. Sure the cost of the raw materials might be a small fraction of the overall price and as a HSM'er yes most all of it could be made for 5 cents on the dollar. BUT that ain't how a business works....

Not whining nor whinging, but as a matter of fact yes I have. Dozens and dozens of them. In a competitive business environment.

The key to success, aside from clever and lucky marketing and timing, is to have low cost of production while maintaining function and appearance. Yes, easy to say, hard to do, and for relatively low volume items, "low cost" is not what YOU might consider "low".

For an example.... Look at the original "Kreg Jig". Nothing to it, but it still is not the 5 bucks a person might expect when evaluating the materials. Yet it is "reasonable" in cost (must be, I bought one and use it). works nicely, and has virtually no serious competition now.

They hit it correctly, but note that the woodworker market is 10x the size of the metalworker market (outside of industry). They sell quite a few of those jigs

Let's have a show of hands here.... how many have bought a "carbide grinder" style machine NEW? Yeah, that's what I thought. Looking good for that market, isn't it?

But, half the world seems to have some sort of two-wheel grinder, even if it is a big-ass eye-poker like the one dian showed. So add-on tables and adapters for that kind of machine are going to sell better, particularly if they can service the wood chisel sharpening crowd as well as metalworking types.

But, even there, how many of you folks have at least one two wheel grinder AND have bought one of those add-on tables, NEW? Yeah, figured that too.

Youse guys got any more questions?

dian
01-01-2017, 02:14 AM
what hazard? that picture is probably 10 years old and i still use it, although sparingly, because i dont grind tools that often any more.

blckbx
01-01-2017, 05:32 AM
These are expensive in my sincere opinion. Especially the home made ones with the flimsy tin can table .
Elf showed the u2 Nice green model makes most sense overall pricewise to me . I bought mine recently as I mostly always do buying used industrial full cabinet model and thereby having the best bang for the buck and also you already know it is a tried and well tested machine. You use your common sense and buy one from a firm where the owners, hopefully were also the daily users, and they took better care of their own stuff doesn't always work that way. Good luck John S, looks like a bought well used one.Alistair

The same machine on UK ebay
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vertex-U2-Universal-Cutter-Grinder-with-CE-/361859532956?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368

Ouch!

The US machine with shipping is still 500. Probably import duty to pay as well.

Black Forest
01-01-2017, 05:46 AM
The grinding disk on Dian's red monstrosity is made by Kaindl in Germany. It is a metal disk with a diamond covering. There is absolutely nothing dangerous about that set up. The holes in the disk are there so when you mount the disk horizontally either in a drill press or a hand drill in a holder you can look through the disk and see the tool you are sharpening. It works surprisingly well. If you mark the end of a drill with a sharpie you can tell exactly where you have taken material off.

Circlip
01-01-2017, 07:18 AM
how many have bought a "carbide grinder" style machine NEW?

And how many have a milling vise with the rotary mount bit sat on a shelf?

Lot to be said for a sturdy toolrest and a protractor. And suggested cutting angles for whatever materials? Look at any selection of hand ground bits (NOT the carbide insert brigade) that different "TURNERS" use, each would attest "This is what you need for turning - - - - - "

Accurate grinding? Yep, needed for threading tools but everything else is a compromise.

Toolmakers grinder? Yep, used 4 over the years, Christensen, Clarkson, Jones and Shipman and last one Hauser.

Regards Ian.

J Tiers
01-01-2017, 10:36 AM
Where is the hazard?

If you do not see it, perhaps there is no point to explaining it to you.

However, the lack of any sort of even rudimentary guard on the wheel is the main issue. The wheel itself is unlikely to fall apart, as it is solid. But the wheel itself can throw particles off, either particles from the wheel, or more likely, particles from the item being ground.

And, of course, unguarded wheels are subject to things falling on them or otherwise coming in contact while they are turning. Including parts of the person operating it.

Finally, the grinding table appears to be far enough away from the wheel that the item being ground may be caught in between, jamming the wheel, or being thrown by it. The holes in the wheel, which are handy when using it on a portable device, are capable of catching smaller work that gets jammed in between the table and wheel.

Since the motor unit very obviously has visible provisions for a guard, and there is a guard on the other end, it would seem that the guard could easily be re-installed to prevent most of the potential issues, without bothering the use of the grinder in any way whatsoever.

I am definitely NOT a safety-crazy person, but that is one item that would not be tolerated in my shop without a guard on it.

You don't want a guard? OK, your shop, your problem.

Mcgyver
01-01-2017, 11:53 AM
Lots of good advice here and the conclusion is; make one.

Sigh. I'll put it on the list.

This is where the trouble starts...... in a year you'll ten lifetimes of projects. Over the years I've tried to change focus - from making to save dough to only making if its something unique that wouldn't exist otherwise, something unique. That's where the time is deserved imo.

Anyway, its not my place to open your pocket book, but I would suggest a grinder like this is definitely a want not a need. An 8" bench grinder with no tables is what you need. I've a lot of tool grinders and tool and cutter grinders; but 99% of the time for hss I go to a bench grinder and do it free hand. Its just the easiest and fastest. Start with a protractor in hand and check as you go. Beside, every hss tool should have the edge stoned onto it after grinding and the hollow grind left by the bench grinder is an advantage here.

Threading tools? same way. With threading tool templates it quickly gets to the right shape. If you're realy trying get a great result, final hand stoning the template is superior in any event unless you go to extreme pains (there is greater resolution with tool, template and a crack of light vs the 1 degree graduations of the grinding fixture). The only advantage I've ever found to making threading tools with a T&GC is that the point is symmetrical to the bit - this lets you easily align the tool to the work with a square. Its a very minor thing, bit of convenience is all.

Black Forest
01-01-2017, 12:09 PM
Where is the hazard?

If you do not see it, perhaps there is no point to explaining it to you.

.

We are not so stupid or untrained that we can't actually use tools safely!

blckbx
01-01-2017, 12:29 PM
This is where the trouble starts...... in a year you'll ten lifetimes of projects. Over the years I've tried to change focus - from making to save dough to only making if its something unique that wouldn't exist otherwise, something unique. That's where the time is deserved imo.

Anyway, its not my place to open your pocket book, but I would suggest a grinder like this is definitely a want not a need. An 8" bench grinder with no tables is what you need. I've a lot of tool grinders and tool and cutter grinders; but 99% of the time for hss I go to a bench grinder and do it free hand. Its just the easiest and fastest. Start with a protractor in hand and check as you go. Beside, every hss tool should have the edge stoned onto it after grinding and the hollow grind left by the bench grinder is an advantage here.

Threading tools? same way. With threading tool templates it quickly gets to the right shape. If you're realy trying get a great result, final hand stoning the template is superior in any event unless you go to extreme pains (there is greater resolution with tool, template and a crack of light vs the 1 degree graduations of the grinding fixture). The only advantage I've ever found to making threading tools with a T&GC is that the point is symmetrical to the bit - this lets you easily align the tool to the work with a square. Its a very minor thing.

Spot on.
I love buying new tools but do not have an endless account to fund them. If I haven't got the right tool for a job it gets a bit obsessive. I bought an ancient richmond mill last year but the main spindle taper was so obscure I couldn't find any tooling. The only solution was to alter the spindle taper, i managed this by using the bed as a toolholder and cutting it in situe, quite pleased with the result but didn't really have enough 'meat' on the original to take the extra depth needed. What I really needed was a lathe to make a new spindle. So 2.2 tonnes of DSG arrived, (plus needed a big VFD to run it) Very nice but needs a new worm fabricating. So I need lathe tooling, so a decent tool grinder would be a good idea.......... ad infinitum I presume.
You're right, the grinder is not a necessity and no way am I spending 500 +. I've got some threading templates, it's just a twin start diametric acme thread. We will see.
But I'll just have a look on Ebay anyway.............

J Tiers
01-01-2017, 01:17 PM
We are not so stupid or untrained that we can't actually use tools safely!

Stuff happens. No use encouraging it to happen when there is no need to.

His shop, his problem.

polaraligned
01-01-2017, 01:39 PM
This is where the trouble starts...... in a year you'll ten lifetimes of projects. Over the years I've tried to change focus - from making to save dough to only making if its something unique that wouldn't exist otherwise, something unique. That's where the time is deserved imo.



This is so right on.