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View Full Version : Taig Mini Lathe or CX704 from Busy Bee (Newbie Question)



JohnnyTK
01-09-2017, 10:16 AM
I'm currently enrolled in the George Brown College Machinist Certificate Program, with the intention of taking this new knowledge and transferring it to model engine building. Previously I was a model free flight plane builder and have decided to move in a different direction and work with metals, plastics and not solely with balsa. For the near future I will be setting up a shop in my apartment that is constructed of concrete and with non-carpeted floors, so size and only having 120v power are limiting factors.

I understand both have limitations but with my Zero practical experience up to date and besides the book learning that is occurring at this moment the question is which would be the best choice for this application? Both are about the same price when converted to good old Canadian funds.

P.S. The better half will only let me get one for my apartment, as she knows that I will want another lather for the house up north.


Thanks

dian
01-09-2017, 10:51 AM
look at this guy, what can be done:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEgSaWHbNO0

BCRider
01-09-2017, 11:41 AM
Would you be getting a comparable size table top mill to go with the lathe? I ask because while some amount of milling in the lathe is possible the small size of the Taig (or Sherline) will really crowd you for some objects. If the intent is to do the milling in the lathe then I'd suggest that the mini lathe is a better option. The vertical slide for the mini series will provide you with roughly double the room for holding parts. The travel is a little more too but it's primarily the amount of space between the spindle axis and the bed. Also the 7x machines are a little heavier. If the intention is to get a companion mill then all that concern goes away of course.

Or if you want to stick with Taig then be prepared and spend some additional money on things like their riser kit to increase the swing to 6.5". Then you give up very little to a mini lathe other than mass. Mass at this size of machine isn't a huge deal if you are turning aluminium and plastics. But when you're doing steel parts a light weight machine like the Taig will require very thin cuts and a bit of delicacy. You'll get there but it'll seem like it takes you a bazillion passes to whittle a bigger hunk of steel down. By "bigger hunk" I'm talking about crankshafts and the like suitable for anything larger in displacement than a 1cc engine. Imagine whittling down a hunk of 1" 4140 (really tough and strong) suitable for a 2.5cc and you may want to shift to a mini lathe or even a touch bigger to get that mass which is needed to allow you to work with reasonable depths of cut. The Taig might be able to manage but on a part like that it'll seem like it takes just shy of forever.

The thing is that the mini lathes (the CX704 is one of these) have their own set of issues. You Tube is full of "mini lathe improvements". Do a search with this key word phrase and watch a few to get a feel for what is important and pretty much mandatory and which are only nice to have. Figure on some time and cost to really get the lathe up to snuff for the more important improvements. The gearing is a big one. Little Machine Shop seems to be the source for the key items for a number of improvements including the improved gearing.

I watched part of that video link posted by dian about the bed wipers that the guy made. Like the Sherlines in that video the Taig has nothing for bed wipers. And small swarf that gets between the bed and carriage will tear things up just as the video suggests. So Taig and Sherline are not immune to needing upgrades that are just about mandatory as well.

All in all for what it sounds like you want to do I'm sort of thinking that the CX704 is the better option just for the reasons of the model engines you wish to make and the need to turn some larger hunks of fairly tough steel to make the crankshafts. The companion mill could be a CX605 mill and fit right nicely alongside the lathe. Certainly folks have made lots of nice stuff on micro lathes like Taigs and Sherlines. But making something like a 2.5cc model airplane engine would be quite "large" on that size and weight. If I'm missing the mark on which style or size of model engines it is you wish to build then this could alter things in favor of the smaller Taig. But if you're after something in the 2.5cc or larger size range then the larger and heavier mini lathe is the way to go.

JohnnyTK
01-09-2017, 11:53 AM
look at this guy, what can be done:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEgSaWHbNO0

Thank you for the video and Sherline has a dealer here in Toronto, so would not have to import from the states. They have a 24" but at this point just starting out think that the Ultimate Package - 4400A Lathe and 5400 Mill might be the way to go they have a model 2000 8-directional milling machine but have read that are hard to "Zero". So many options and once you start reading everyone has it's pluses and minuses.

mars-red
01-09-2017, 11:58 AM
They're very different machines, and one is quite a bit smaller than the other, so I think it's much less a matter of comparison, and more a matter of what you intend to do with the machine. It might help us to see some examples of the sort of work you'd like to do, if that's possible.

I guess my general advice would be the Taig if you plan on doing a lot of very delicate work (the collet holding spindle and the lever feed tailstock will be wonderful for that). Otherwise, if you want something better with slightly larger or more general work, the 7x12 will be much more useful (once you disassemble it, thoroughly clean, lube, and reassemble it, of course). My hunch is that neither one will much fun for turning steel parts anywhere close to the diameter of their respective capacities, but I haven't had personal experience with either machine. Also keep in mind that the compound slide for the Taig seems to be an additional option. It adds US $50 to the price, not the end of the world, but if you look at the photos it's quite thick and bulky. May or may not be an issue, but thought I'd point it out.

One thing's for sure, I'd expect the Taig to be in a totally different league as far as build quality.

-Max

danlb
01-09-2017, 12:52 PM
I've watched the Taig and Sherlines at conventions, but have not used one. I have owned and used 3 different 7x?? lathes, including a 7x12 that appears to be identical to the CX704.

None of the 3 lathes needed any specific "fixes" other than the same adjustments that should be done to any machine tool before running it. You have to adjust various screws and oil a few spots, but that's also part of normal maintenance.

Since you are learning, it would probably be best to go with the CX704 for one simple reason. It's designed essentially the same way as the bigger lathes that you will be learning on in class. The change gears are where they should be. So are the handwheels. The tailstock works just like the one you'd find on a Logan, bridgeport, etc. The other two lathes use unique designs that will not translate as readily to the classroom.

Dan

Beazld
01-09-2017, 01:47 PM
Johnny, I consider myself a modeler, FF, C/L & R/C. I have always wanted to get into Home shop machining. I haven't the space or funds for a full size lathe or mill, and wasn't crazy about the Chinese mini machines. I purchased a Sherline 4400 lathe package around 2001 and later bought the Sherlone 2000 mill package with DRO. Both machines are much more capable than I am. I really enjoy them and use them for my modeling work. I have built a couple PM steam engine casting kits with them. As long as you keep within their capabilities and don't take heavier cuts than they are designed for you will have years of enjoyment like I have. Would I like larger machines? Heck yes, but I don't have the facilities at present. I hope this helps your decision process.

JohnnyTK
01-09-2017, 02:20 PM
I've watched the Taig and Sherlines at conventions, but have not used one. I have owned and used 3 different 7x?? lathes, including a 7x12 that appears to be identical to the CX704.

None of the 3 lathes needed any specific "fixes" other than the same adjustments that should be done to any machine tool before running it. You have to adjust various screws and oil a few spots, but that's also part of normal maintenance.

Since you are learning, it would probably be best to go with the CX704 for one simple reason. It's designed essentially the same way as the bigger lathes that you will be learning on in class. The change gears are where they should be. So are the handwheels. The tailstock works just like the one you'd find on a Logan, bridgeport, etc. The other two lathes use unique designs that will not translate as readily to the classroom.

Dan

http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k623/tknavi/PM-3BIM_zpsbkcm4lrd.jpg (http://s1119.photobucket.com/user/tknavi/media/PM-3BIM_zpsbkcm4lrd.jpg.html)

http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k623/tknavi/02_V-twin_ts_03_zpswarr4tmg.jpg (http://s1119.photobucket.com/user/tknavi/media/02_V-twin_ts_03_zpswarr4tmg.jpg.html)

These are the types of models I would like to start with the Elmer Series of engines and the wobbler is the kit I ordered.

JohnnyTK
01-09-2017, 02:44 PM
I never thought about the control functions and how they relate to my upcoming classes, but that is a very valid point for me to ponder. Before I started down this path, I never realized all the tooling required and now wish I had never disposed of all the tooling in my dads old shop as he was a machinist at one point in his career. Hindsight is 20/20.

danlb
01-09-2017, 03:21 PM
Johny,

Having those models gives you some important information. It establishes the work envelope needed on the lathe and mill.

The Sherline 4400 has a max disk size (swing over bed) of 7 inches but a maximum cylinder size (swing over cross slide) of 3.5 inches. I can't figure out how far the carriage moves; that determines the longest rod that you can turn in one operation. You need to compare the size of the kit's parts to the equipment's limits when you chose the equipment. Once you buy the machinery you then have to limit the kits to fit the equipment. :)


Dan

mygrizzly1022
01-09-2017, 03:44 PM
Hi

My advise is don't hurry. You have the option of using a variety of gear at school. The more you learn the better equipped you are to make an informed decision.
Watch the used market. The little guys pop up with a fare degree of regularity. If a taig suits your need have a look on kijiji there are a couple listed.
I am sure folks here will tell you the purchase of any lathe is just the entry fee. Tooling costs will in time be damn close what you pay for the lathe, or more!
That is where buying used can offer the biggest bang for the buck because you often get the tooling for a fraction of the cost.

Robert

David Powell
01-09-2017, 04:35 PM
Hi

My advise is don't hurry. You have the option of using a variety of gear at school. The more you learn the better equipped you are to make an informed decision.
Watch the used market. The little guys pop up with a fare degree of regularity. If a taig suits your need have a look on kijiji there are a couple listed.
I am sure folks here will tell you the purchase of any lathe is just the entry fee. Tooling costs will in time be damn close what you pay for the lathe, or more!
That is where buying used can offer the biggest bang for the buck because you often get the tooling for a fraction of the cost.

Robert

If you are interested please simply search for our web site. Membership may well be advantageous to you in many ways. Regards David Powell.

JohnnyTK
01-09-2017, 05:29 PM
If you are interested please simply search for our web site. Membership may well be advantageous to you in many ways. Regards David Powell.

Thanks David. I have made plans to attend the meeting this Friday and look forward to gaining more knowledge. Want to Thank everyone for their advice and guidance. Now I have more questions that I must answer before I take the jump in purchasing as I'm very impulsive and would have been out shopping this week. Going to put the breaks on do a ton more research and will most likely have a ton of questions as I move forward.
TKS.

J Tiers
01-09-2017, 05:46 PM
Having seen up close, but not used, both the Sherline and Taig, the Taig looks pretty crude by comparison, clumsy big chucks, etc. I was not impressed. The Sherline is slicker and appears to work nicely.

Neither one seems to have the capability of a larger machine, like a 7 x 14, unless you get the longest bed Sherline.

Some very fine work comes off Sherline machines. Of course some very fine work comes off 3 in 1 machines and cheap round column mills.

BCRider
01-09-2017, 06:13 PM
Have you journeyed down to the local libraries yet? When my own shop interests changed and I was keen on learning the basics and more a few trips to the local libraries turned up a bunch of great books.

One in particular is "The Amateur's Lathe" by L.H. Sparey. The lathe showcased in this book is primarily the Myford which is a fair bit larger than what you are considering. But the information and methods given are timeless and well worth soaking up. You may also find a book that was called "Micro Machining" or some such thing. It was a book dedicated to smaller size lathes and the projects suitable for that size of machine. Sorry I can't be more specific with the title but it was well over 10 years back when I saw it last.

One of the masters of micro machining and small engines of all sorts was Rudy Kouhoupt. The Home Shop Machinist's store has many of Rudy's books for sale. And in particular is his collected "Micro Machining" columns reprinted in one volume.

https://secure.villagepress.com/store/items/detail/item/1216

Some of it may seem like babble at this point. But if you were to buy such a book in the meantime and study it I'm sure you'll get more of a feel for what the smaller lathes such as the Taig and Sherline can really do well. And if you are not put off by the bundle price of all four of Rudy's books I'm sure you'll find them a valuable resource and a great teaching aid. I know the two of his books I've got are worthy of repeated reading or just to pass through in search of inspiration.

JohnnyTK
01-09-2017, 08:29 PM
Have you journeyed down to the local libraries yet? When my own shop interests changed and I was keen on learning the basics and more a few trips to the local libraries turned up a bunch of great books.

One in particular is "The Amateur's Lathe" by L.H. Sparey. The lathe showcased in this book is primarily the Myford which is a fair bit larger than what you are considering. But the information and methods given are timeless and well worth soaking up. You may also find a book that was called "Micro Machining" or some such thing. It was a book dedicated to smaller size lathes and the projects suitable for that size of machine. Sorry I can't be more specific with the title but it was well over 10 years back when I saw it last.

One of the masters of micro machining and small engines of all sorts was Rudy Kouhoupt. The Home Shop Machinist's store has many of Rudy's books for sale. And in particular is his collected "Micro Machining" columns reprinted in one volume.

https://secure.villagepress.com/store/items/detail/item/1216

Some of it may seem like babble at this point. But if you were to buy such a book in the meantime and study it I'm sure you'll get more of a feel for what the smaller lathes such as the Taig and Sherline can really do well. And if you are not put off by the bundle price of all four of Rudy's books I'm sure you'll find them a valuable resource and a great teaching aid. I know the two of his books I've got are worthy of repeated reading or just to pass through in search of inspiration.

I really appreciate all the input from everybody. I have purchased The Home Machinist Handbook by Doug Birney and also waiting on a few others I ordered.
The Milling Machine, The Metal Lathe, The Metal Workers Workshop for Home Machinist by Harold Hall.

Now I really appreciate conference calls at work gives me the time to start to absorb all this information. If the dollar was not so bad would look at Micro Lux 7 x 16 if only I had taken this up when the dollar was at par.

mygrizzly1022
01-09-2017, 09:03 PM
Hi Johny

Do you have plans for the weekend? Perhaps you could take your better half on a little road trip. I am sure she would be delighted to take this in http://www.cabinfeverexpo.com/
In my earlier post I made no particular recommendation. My choice would lean toward the bigger more capable lathe from BB. That is where I started, and my only regret is like a dummy I sold it when I got a bigger lathe. How ever I would suggest you consider this option for your wish list, as it is substantially more lathe than the mini but still a manageable size for an apartment.
http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=3540

Robert

David Powell
01-09-2017, 09:21 PM
Hi Johny

Do you have plans for the weekend? Perhaps you could take your better half on a little road trip. I am sure she would be delighted to take this in http://www.cabinfeverexpo.com/
In my earlier post I made no particular recommendation. My choice would lean toward the bigger more capable lathe from BB. That is where I started, and my only regret is like a dummy I sold it when I got a bigger lathe. How ever I would suggest you consider this option for your wish list, as it is substantially more lathe than the mini but still a manageable size for an apartment.
http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=3540

Robert

There are plenty of relatively small older out of production machines which might suit your needs. Sometimes buying secondhand you can get lots of tooling thrown in for the price. Some are good, some to be avoided, and some are useful, but only for small work. Simply watching for Lathe on Toronto Kijiji for a month or two will give you an idea of what is around and at what sort of prices. As for size I have used a Myford ML7 in an apartment closet successfully. Generally advice would suggest get the biggest machine you can find a space for. You can do small work on a big machine, but big work on a small machine presents a lot of problems, if it is at all possible. Regards David Powell.

JohnnyTK
01-09-2017, 09:24 PM
Hi Johny

Do you have plans for the weekend? Perhaps you could take your better half on a little road trip. I am sure she would be delighted to take this in http://www.cabinfeverexpo.com/
In my earlier post I made no particular recommendation. My choice would lean toward the bigger more capable lathe from BB. That is where I started, and my only regret is like a dummy I sold it when I got a bigger lathe. How ever I would suggest you consider this option for your wish list, as it is substantially more lathe than the mini but still a manageable size for an apartment.
http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=3540

Robert

Would have loved to taken that trip but my course starts at George Brown this weekend. I appreciate all the information and now I have to some serious reading to see what makes the best sense for me 7, 8, 10 or micro to start off?

BCRider
01-09-2017, 09:49 PM
One truism about metal working machines is that bigger and heavier is ALWAYS better. If you have a whole room to work with then you could look at something like a 10x20 or 10x22. Still a bench top machine and not all that bulky. The crunch comes though if the machinery must be movable on short notice. A 10x20 lathe isn't something you want to move on a more or less daily basis... or even a weekly basis. The lift to work and lift to store option pretty well tops out with the 7" mini lathes. Although an 8x16 might be movable if your back does not have regular conversations with your nerves.... but that's about it.

You haven't said much about the proposed work area in terms of size. Just that it's in "an apartment". That might mean that the whole works has to fit onto and into an old office desk. Or it might mean you have the closet size storage room off the front hall. Or it might mean you have half or all of the spare bedroom. What you've got for space will be a huge determining factor in how large you can go with the machines.

Keep in mind you need room for not only the lathe and mill but also a complementary size drill press, a well mounted bench vise and a clear area for laying stuff out and marking off and other jobs that do not employ one of the machines or the vise. You'll want some way to cut stock down to size as well but I figure you can buy one of those hand held bandsaws. You COULD use an angle grinder and cut off disc. But you would not be popular with the wife due to the smoke and noise nor the neighbors due to just the noise. It may be a concrete building but the loud stuff still carries really badly.

J Tiers
01-09-2017, 10:47 PM
In an apartment, if you are not on the lowest floor, put some padding between the floor and the table legs of whatever you use as a work table. If they are small, use small (2 x 2 or so) pieces of wood under the legs, and the pads under that. Thickish but fairly soft rubber pads are likely best. Cuts the higher frequency noise transmitted into the structure by a lot.

JohnnyTK
01-09-2017, 10:55 PM
One truism about metal working machines is that bigger and heavier is ALWAYS better. If you have a whole room to work with then you could look at something like a 10x20 or 10x22. Still a bench top machine and not all that bulky. The crunch comes though if the machinery must be movable on short notice. A 10x20 lathe isn't something you want to move on a more or less daily basis... or even a weekly basis. The lift to work and lift to store option pretty well tops out with the 7" mini lathes. Although an 8x16 might be movable if your back does not have regular conversations with your nerves.... but that's about it.

You haven't said much about the proposed work area in terms of size. Just that it's in "an apartment". That might mean that the whole works has to fit onto and into an old office desk. Or it might mean you have the closet size storage room off the front hall. Or it might mean you have half or all of the spare bedroom. What you've got for space will be a huge determining factor in how large you can go with the machines.

Keep in mind you need room for not only the lathe and mill but also a complementary size drill press, a well mounted bench vise and a clear area for laying stuff out and marking off and other jobs that do not employ one of the machines or the vise. You'll want some way to cut stock down to size as well but I figure you can buy one of those hand held bandsaws. You COULD use an angle grinder and cut off disc. But you would not be popular with the wife due to the smoke and noise nor the neighbors due to just the noise. It may be a concrete building but the loud stuff still carries really badly.

Well I'm lucky when it comes to space as I can have the whole living room area which is the length of a single car garrage as the wife lives north of the city and this is my Monday to Friday residence. Only one concession is that that my work bench in the bedroom for model plane building leaves the room. I agree with you on the weight being a factor and think I will be limited to the 7" x 12" as getting it in and installed with the least amount of attention is key. Also all the other tooling that is required must be factored into the budget and wife is only so tolerant. What I spend on my hobby= What she will want for her endeavours. So weight and $ are a factor. But I have watched a lot of youtube tonight and think this is the most practical way to go to start. Then I will start to look for a bigger lathe as I gain experience for the homestead shop. 7" x 12" from review the drawings I have looked at will allow me to make the type of models that I'm interested in and like any hobby, with experience you evolve and venture down different paths. Think I will have to make a sales call to Busy Bee on Tuesday.

RB211
01-09-2017, 10:58 PM
Having seen up close, but not used, both the Sherline and Taig, the Taig looks pretty crude by comparison, clumsy big chucks, etc. I was not impressed. The Sherline is slicker and appears to work nicely.

Neither one seems to have the capability of a larger machine, like a 7 x 14, unless you get the longest bed Sherline.

Some very fine work comes off Sherline machines. Of course some very fine work comes off 3 in 1 machines and cheap round column mills.

Those big ugly Taig chucks use "2 piece soft jaws", a luxury that I wished 3 and 4" chucks had. People complain about runout on a 3 jaw, those ugly taig chucks will give you zero runout. With that said, Sherline stuff looks nice too. As far as mills, I'd get the Taig CNC, lathes, the Sherline CNC. These small machines I'd use for small scale railroading, Z thru gauge 1. Just picked up a Z scale Marklin starter set in Germany. Was envisioning what I'd need to make my own Z scale stuff. A case where bigger machine tools wouldn't be better. Also, if I was stuck in Apartment, yes, small is way to go.
Depending on size of work being done, hands down the Sherline and Taig lathes, besides being made in the USA, are of a substantial better engineered, and higher quality than the 7xXX stuff. If you need the capacity, then you need the capacity, no way around that.

danlb
01-09-2017, 11:23 PM
Johnny,

Since you will be working in an apartment you will want to do something to protect the walls and surrounding area from the inevitable spray of cutting oil which will be slung off the spinning part like oil off a bicycle chain at high speed. A chuck spinning at 2000 RPM will throw oil quite a ways. I use a roll down window shade behind my 7x12 to catch the metal chips and oil before they get to the storage rack behind it. When I need to get to the storage rack I roll up the shade :)

Of course, you will also want to do something to protect the floors and ceiling too. Metal chips WILL go every where and will need to be cleaned up frequently.

JohnnyTK
01-09-2017, 11:52 PM
Johnny,

Since you will be working in an apartment you will want to do something to protect the walls and surrounding area from the inevitable spray of cutting oil which will be slung off the spinning part like oil off a bicycle chain at high speed. A chuck spinning at 2000 RPM will throw oil quite a ways. I use a roll down window shade behind my 7x12 to catch the metal chips and oil before they get to the storage rack behind it. When I need to get to the storage rack I roll up the shade :)

Of course, you will also want to do something to protect the floors and ceiling too. Metal chips WILL go every where and will need to be cleaned up frequently.

I was going to lay down some flooring over the original flooring and use 1" rubber mats to absorb the sound transmission, but did not think of the wood to help. In regards to the oil spray from the tooling, I thought about making a containment system that would have 3 sides and a top that would have LED lighting wired into. Then some old office dividers to contain rest. Will have to do some measuring etc and do a formal design as this progresses, as after I read everyone's post something that I did not think of presents a new challenge to overcome. My original design for the lathe and mill area had a fully contained work area made out of office divider panels to contain the sound and swarf. I'm lucky I work with a creative bunch of welders and wood workers that are always willing to take up challenges. For swarf cleanup I have a shop vac already installed in a sound deadening box, as I used this when I was building my model planes to clean up.
'

BCRider
01-10-2017, 01:52 AM
It sounds like you've got all the tricks to running quiet and keeping things clean and tidy already in place. I think you'll do just fine. And given all the facts I'm thinking that the 7x lathe is a dandy choice to get started.

I'd suggest that the next thing is a drill press. Or do you already have one for the model airplanes?

JohnAlex141r
01-10-2017, 10:10 AM
Johnny;

A quick reply - maybe already mentioned above - but fellow Canadian J Bentley used to have a comparison between his Busy Bee lathe and his Taig.

You might find it on:

http://www.jrbentley.com/origindex.html

or by following one of his links there.

I seem to remember that his site was WELL WORTH reading, for those of us who like to make small, precision things.

Gotta run - JohnS.

BCRider
01-10-2017, 11:23 AM
Here's the direct link.

http://www.jrbentley.com/workshop.html

Two things jump out at me from his description of the Taig. First is that it functioned so well for him even with larger items. I would not have expected that from such a small lathe. Although from his description I suspect that a lot of the larger work involved worrying the metal down only a few thou per cut. But it did the job apparently. The second is that he too added wipers to the carriage to aid in keeping swarf from getting between the bed and the carriage ways. To my mind wipers on the carriage of any lathe is not an option if one wants to keep the machine in good condition for the long term.

The one exception to this is on watch makers lathe compound rests that have longer top slides that over hang the bases so swarf simply falls past. But regular lathes are not set up that way.

I still think you're doing the right thing in getting the CX704. But don't assume that the wipers, if there are any, are functional. My own lathe came with "wiper like" bits of soft plastic that were not even in contact with the bed. A placebo only. So if there are wipers on the 704 be sure they are correctly placed and functional. If not then plan on making your own that will function.

Me? I'm a big fan of the more traditional felt wipers. They work at keeping the swarf out and once soaked in oil picked up from the ways aid in keeping the ways lubricated. They are easily cleaned with the old machinist's trick of dribbling oil on the ways then running the wipers into the oil and backing off a little. The oil flushes out the swarf and holds it on the bed so it can be wiped away. Repeat two or three times and no more swarf comes away.

Here's one of the wipers on the "V" bed of the carriage.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y252/BCRider/Metalworking/wipers3.jpg

And I did the front of the tail stock while I was at it.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y252/BCRider/Metalworking/wipers2.jpg

As a result after around 30 years of owning this lathe the bed ways still show only slight signs of wear in the most used positions. It most certainly would not be as little as it is if I'd left the pointless bits of plastic in place.

EddyCurr
01-10-2017, 11:41 AM
Three pages in: time to mention the need for a bench grinder fitted with aftermarket white aluminum oxide wheels and some kind of improved tool rest for sharpening the HSS tooling that small lathes require to function.

The gray wheels that are standard on bench grinders are general purpose wheels that work on mild steel, but which are less than ideal for harder HSS. For HSS tool steel, the white aluminum oxide wheels cut better - these need to be found in the aftermarket.

The key is to get a grinder that accepts a standard size, readily available white A/O wheel. For Norton, this means 6" dia x 3/4" or 1" wide. They have wheels in 60, 100 and 150 grit: A 60 would do for most purposes; maybe a 100 for finishing. These wheels have a 1" arbour hole, so grinding wheel spacer/adapters will be necessary for machines with smaller dia arbours that are not already equipped to accept wheels w/ 1"
holes.


Norton Premium White Aluminum Oxide
Better Choice For Light Metal Removal And Sharpening Of High-Speed Tool Steels
(55 rc and Higher)

6 x 3/4 x 1:
#07660788246: Medium 60
#07660788247: Fine 100
#07660788248: Very Fine 150
6 x 1 x 1:
07660788261: Medium 60
07660788262: Fine 100
07660788263: Very Fine 150

An abrasive honing stone for finishing tool edges rounds out the basic equipment for preparing and maintaining HSS cutting tools.

Here is a link to a thread with information about sharpening and honing:


Sharpening Small Tools by Ian Bradley (http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/71411-Sharpening-Small-Tools-by-Ian-Bradley)

.

dian
01-10-2017, 11:57 AM
sherline goes 2800 rpm, taig 1800. slow. also sherline motor is 60w, taig no idea.

lakeside53
01-10-2017, 12:02 PM
60w? doubt it...

dian
01-10-2017, 12:19 PM
http://sherline.com/product/33050-dc-motor-speed-control-units/

i would have bought their 10 000 rpm unit long time ago if it had any decent power.

EddyCurr
01-10-2017, 12:20 PM
60w? doubt it...Dian is correct


Duty rating: Continuous–10 oz. in. at 6100 rpm, .85 amperes; Intermittent–30 oz. in. at 5500 rpm, 1.75 amperes (5 minutes on / 15 minutes off)
Output horsepower: .06 KW (60 W) at 10 oz. in. / 6100 rpm

Source: http://sherline.com/standard-dimensions-of-sherline-tools/

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BCRider
01-10-2017, 12:39 PM
Dian is correct


Duty rating: Continuous–10 oz. in. at 6100 rpm, .85 amperes; Intermittent–30 oz. in. at 5500 rpm, 1.75 amperes (5 minutes on / 15 minutes off)
Output horsepower: .06 KW (60 W) at 10 oz. in. / 6100 rpm

Source: http://sherline.com/standard-dimensions-of-sherline-tools/

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There's more to that story than what is given in your post. Let's look at all the data for that motor.

Type of enclosure: Totally enclosed, non-vented
Duty rating: Continuous–10 oz. in. at 6100 rpm, .85 amperes; Intermittent–30 oz. in. at 5500 rpm, 1.75 amperes (5 minutes on / 15 minutes off)
Output horsepower: .06 KW (60 W) at 10 oz. in. / 6100 rpm
AC voltage (input): Normally 115 VAC, 60 Hz, Single Phase to rectifier (Sherline electronic speed control converts any input from 100 VAC to 240 VAC, 50-60 Hz.)
DC voltage: 90 VDC to motor (60 Hz)
Speed in rpm: 6100 rpm continuous
Class of insulation: Class A, 105° (C.) insulation system
Normal full load current: .85 amperes
Starting current: 17 amperes instantaneous starting current

So it would appear that the 60W rating is more for very light use or might even be what it draws just to spin the head stock and due to the belt losses. If turning something larger it will go up rapidly and get into the 100 watt range pretty fast.

And notice the starting current? 17 amps.

The motor for the Taig that is offered by Taig is a 1/10 HP. That's all it says. 1/10Hp equates to roughly 75 watts.

EddyCurr
01-10-2017, 01:01 PM
Duty rating is 60W / .85A / 6100 RPM for continuous operation.

If the load and draw go up, the motor won't be rated for continuous operation any longer. Without intermittant breaks for cooling (15 min off for every 5 min when loaded down to 5500 RPM at 1.75A) the magic smoke will eventually escape from the motor.

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BCRider
01-10-2017, 01:40 PM
Sorry, I wasn't suggesting otherwise.

But the current at .85A and the power rating at 60 W seemed at odds with each other so I dug a little deeper. Now motors tend to draw current that is out of phase with the voltage. So that might explain the discrepancy. It's also why motors tend to be rated in "volt-amps" instead of "Watts". I just found it interesting that the motor current for that DC motor varied by so much.

wmgeorge
01-10-2017, 02:14 PM
When I was downsizing my shop I looked briefly at the Taig and Sherline they seemed more targeted more toward toy or model making.

After a couple of false starts I ended up with the Sieg C3 7x14 lathe, the Little Machine Shop version which I did nothing, no tuning up or repairing out of the the box and it works fine. The LMS version is special to them and I think they pay a little extra to get the fine tuning done at the factory. I love it.

If you have room by all means get the Sieg mill from them also. Extra or needed tooling will be fun to acquire as you go along. I realize your in Canada and LMS is about as far away as you can get. But there is a home machine shop show near Detroit sometime soon, someone else already posted the details.

George Bulliss
01-10-2017, 02:49 PM
But there is a home machine shop show near Detroit sometime soon, someone else already posted the details.

The NAMES expo, April 22 and 23. Both LittleMachineShop.com and Sherline will be there.

Can't say with certainty that you can wrangle a deal, but I think they have brought machines to the show for display that were already sold. You pick it up on Sunday and save on the freight bill and perhaps any other show discounts they may have. Might be worth checking into.

RB211
01-10-2017, 02:55 PM
...But there is a home machine shop show near Detroit sometime soon, someone else already posted the details.
This is an excellent idea, go see the machines in person, talk to the users directly, get a feel for the capabilities of said machines, and if they will be a good fit for you. The catch 22 is that you won't know what you truly need until you are in the thick of things after having spent money. More times than not, the answer is usually larger and higher quality. Keep your projects within the size envelope of your machines, and you will be fine. If you want to fix real life size things, I can tell you that you want at least a 12x36 lathe and a 9x42 knee mill. You want to do model engineering, you can go as small as you want.

dian
01-10-2017, 03:57 PM
Sorry, I wasn't suggesting otherwise.

But the current at .85A and the power rating at 60 W seemed at odds with each other so I dug a little deeper. Now motors tend to draw current that is out of phase with the voltage. So that might explain the discrepancy. It's also why motors tend to be rated in "volt-amps" instead of "Watts". I just found it interesting that the motor current for that DC motor varied by so much.

90v x 0.85a = 76w. anything wrong with that calculation?

BCRider
01-10-2017, 04:00 PM
90v x 0.85a = 76w. anything wrong with that calculation?

Ah, good point. The reference to the AC to DC supply and speed control and the 90v max input to the motor slid on past my left eye without registering.

JohnnyTK
01-10-2017, 04:42 PM
Thank you for all your advice and today I went to Busy Bee to look at the 7x12 and other related things that I will require to draw up a budget for the new project. The plan is as follows: 1 List of all required tooling to start and be able to perform most tasks. (Your suggestions are appreciated and also what you feel are the best choices for a modeler and some gun accessories that are a real pain to obtain in Canada. I realize that one can never have enough or the exact tooling required and that additions will be required as I progress. 2: Layout the required tooling in manner that is user friendly and maximizes sound reduction, clean up and space. 3: Attend some model engineering meetings to get an accurate feel of what people are using and see some home setups in person.(gracious board member has already offered this, near me). 4: Read and gather as much information that my brain can absorb before spending the $ (buy smart plan) and not the buy and regret plan due to poor research. 5: Attend college machinist program, which will be a year long process and I will not be able to wait till the lathe and mill courses to purchase equipment. Want to get started. 6: The most important one! Ensure that I buy wife something nice and take her out to dinner to ensure a smooth introduction of my new found hobby and what is turning out to be a passion as I explore all the different avenues that one can take. 7: Always listen and learn from those that gone before you on this journey before making decisions(Repeat to myself as I internet shop). I only have one regret and that is, I never learned these skills from my father who started out as a machinist and also that I got rid of his tools not knowing the value of them. OK call it 2 regrets.

John

JohnnyTK
01-10-2017, 06:35 PM
LMS Busy Bee LMS Grizzly
7" x 16" 7" x 12" 7" x 14" 7" x 14"
$1829 $1000 $1291 $1267 Canadian funds with GST landed
4" 3" 3" 3" Chuck
Todays project as I wait out the freezing rain in my office.

BCRider
01-10-2017, 06:44 PM
To give yourself more room to work with I would pay for the 14" C-C for sure. But that extra 2" comes with a hefty price to up it to 16". Easier, and likely wiser, to just avoid anything large enough to need that extra spacing.

On the other hand that 12" really gets small in a hurry if you are working with some "big boy" sized drill bits and work piece. There is literally not enough room to mount a drill chuck and a 1/2" jobber drill and work on a piece that sticks out more than around 2" from the chuck jaws. So the 14" sure looks like the happy middle ground to me.

mygrizzly1022
01-10-2017, 07:38 PM
Mini Lathe Resource
http://www.mini-lathe.com/

darryl
01-10-2017, 07:40 PM
I take one look at the size of the chuck and my mind is pretty much made up. It's surprising how much chuck there can be for so little diametric holding capability. You'll be less limited with a 4 inch chuck. I haven't looked at the LMS 7x16, but it would seem offhand that you get more capability from it.

While we're at it- 500 watt brushless motor- not a very limiting 60 or 75 or whatever- and this one will be happy running at much lower power levels also without heating too much. Real power when you need it, and I'd bet it's pretty smooth as well.

Somewhere I read the weight at about 125 lbs- a significant increase over the others at 75 lbs or thereabouts. You can still handle this one alone if need be. This might be the top end of the lower size lathes- probably a good choice. My lathe is 8x18 and something like 250 lbs- not much larger but not manageable by one person safely.

BCRider
01-10-2017, 07:58 PM
But an extra $600 is a heap of money to pay for two more inches of bed and one more inch of chuck. He can buy a 4 inch chuck for a LOT less than that.

My real reason for saying no to the LMS 7x16 package is that for that much money he would be ripe for moving up to the next larger class of swing and much more bed length. But he's also stated that the goal here is to do all this on a small footprint in weight, room, noise and cost. And while a better choice the LMS package just pushes at too many of those factors...... especially since we all KNOW that once he's bitten that there will be a proper size machine shop at the house in due course......(Where's that Devil or evil grin smilie when we need it?)

darryl
01-10-2017, 08:22 PM
You definitely have to consider the stand also. The beds on these little machines look to be fairly flimsy and would probably benefit greatly by having a stand that would offer extra rigidity. Most stands offered seem to me to be little more than 'sounding boxes', although they must be capable of holding up the weight of the machine. How they could be capable of setting and holding a lathe bed alignment is beyond me- chances are pretty good that the lathe bed would twist the stand, and not the other way around. If it's needed to impart a slight twisting motion to align a lathe bed, then you need something very rigid to work from. So- here I offer an idea. Visit a granite shop and have them cut you two pieces of granite large enough to bolt the lathe to, and have them drill mounting holes to the pattern that you supply. You would sandwich the two pieces using epoxy to get a decent thickness. Not only will this be a very rigid base to mount the lathe bed onto, the extra weight will greatly help to reduce transmitted vibrations. You still need a stand of course to set this on, but that can be as simple as a plywood and 2x4 box- hint, use adjustable feet.

wmgeorge
01-10-2017, 09:31 PM
Everything I have in my shop is now on some sort of roller. The Sieg C3 is sitting on a chunk of 1 inch plywood, inside the top of a heavy duty 4 wheel cart. Its the right work height and the lower tray is great for storage.

lakeside53
01-10-2017, 09:39 PM
1/10hp is astonishingly small. My wife's sewing machine and my jewelers lathe have more than that! For comparison, my lathe motor is 75 times bigger, but let's not dwell on that. Even the chuck jaws extended at speed will make a fan that takes a good % of the available HP.

More practical - it takes about 1hp AT THE SPINDLE to remove 1 cubic inch of mild steel per minute. What do you get at the spindle - 1/30th hp? No idea, but let's say you did get that and if you did and were 100% efficient (not possible) at material removal , it would take 30 minutes to remove that 1 cubic inch. Now you can see where the 5 min per 15 becomes a painful.

So... I guess you forget about real material removal and use it to make pens from brass like it was designed ;)

But in all seriousness... Figure you what you want to make then choose the lathe to suit. If you don't know, go big as you can afford/fit. As everyone here knows, bigger tools lurk on every horizon, especially after you buy one.

wmgeorge
01-10-2017, 10:44 PM
Around here its hard, very hard to sell a used metal lathe, but from time to time on Craigslist. Once in a while a used Taig or Sherline comes up. Just a thought, but really love my 7x14 but smaller, I don't think so.