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J Scott Fischer
02-28-2017, 12:31 AM
Hello Friends I have a mystery lathe here, seems old and a "hobby" type lathe but it works like a charm. I need a stud gear (or I need to make one) and wanted to see if I could find a quick change for it... but cant ID it. Anyone with any info would be great, otherwise, its baptism by fire for gear making for me!

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/attachments/f38/192060d1488043617-help-identifying-old-lathe-2017-02-25-11.14.59.jpghttp://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/attachments/f38/192062d1488043720-help-identifying-old-lathe-2017-02-25-11.14.40.jpghttp://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/attachments/f38/192064d1488043757-help-identifying-old-lathe-2017-02-25-11.13.30.jpg
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/attachments/f38/192063d1488043742-help-identifying-old-lathe-2017-02-25-11.13.42.jpg

J Tiers
02-28-2017, 01:28 AM
I have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA what kind that is, and I do not know about the stud gear.

BUT....

You own the second one of those that I have seen. I saw one at a tag sale a year or so back. Absolutely must be the same type machine. The crazy people at the sale thought it was an Atlas, but that was just because an atlas catalog sheet was on top of the pile of paper with it. Next one down was a Southbend catalog sheet.... It's quite obviously neither of them.

Photobucket is AFU for me this evening, so I can't post the pics I have, but I asked about it here at the time.

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/68860-Mystery-probable-hybrid-lathe-ID?highlight=mystery+lathe

I searched all over for the thing, trying to identify it. Never could. I eventually decided someone put it together out of parts from several machines.

Now here you come along, and you have ANOTHER one....! Proving that the one I saw was not a hybrid, unless you bought it from Missouri, or it came from here.

Too bad I didnt open the gear case and take a good pic of that. Might have helped, but I didn't know you would be along and need parts.

It looks like you either have a lot missing, or much of yours is taken off for cleaning.

Mcgyver
02-28-2017, 08:15 AM
go to Tony's lathe site and start looking - lets see how obsessive compulsive you are. (I've failed that test before)

vpt
02-28-2017, 08:20 AM
That is an Atlas milling attachment anyhow.

The lathe, no idea.

Seastar
02-28-2017, 08:26 AM
The little pink attachment with the small rubber tires has me really confused?
Maybe it's just a toy lathe for kids?
Bill

TGTool
02-28-2017, 10:03 AM
It does look similar to early Clausing lathes but not quite. Style is close but yours has the headstock cover hinged at the front and the clutch and half-nut controls are in different positions. I suppose it's not out of the question that there might have been more model changes than Tony's site has pictures for. There's also the Clausing/Atlas confusion. Atlas bought Clausing, put their own name on Clausing machines at first and then found that customers had less respect for the Atlas name so they returned the Clausing name for that line. However, there was that brief period of Clausing designs with Atlas badges.

wdtom44
02-28-2017, 10:12 AM
Do you have the change gears and banjo they go on?

danlb
02-28-2017, 10:34 AM
They (change gears and banjo) are on the table behind the lathe in one picture.

J Tiers
02-28-2017, 11:14 AM
I looked through Tony's site when I saw that one at the sale. No dice.

When thinking of "what it looks like", you need to remember some other facts here:

1) It has two flat ways and two V ways, BUT the V ways are only for the carriage, the flat ways are INSIDE. THAT is a more unusual setup than most.

2) There are some other very distinctive features which cannot be discounted, because they are known to be on TWO machines in widely different places. These include the belt cover, the two bosses on the crosslide, and the small hole in the tailstock, among others.

3) It's no good assuming it was assembles out of different pieces from various machines, because we know of TWO with the very same features. Unless someone bought leftovers from several makers, modified them, and made them into lathes on something of a production basis, assuming it is a "frankenlathe" is just not the answer.

BCRider
02-28-2017, 03:30 PM
The key features such as the bed rail arrangement and head stock shape are things that don't change. But I can see mid run changes to things like covers based on various reasons coming along. So I'd tend to look for "that's close to what I've got" then focus on the "fingerprint" features such as the bed rail configuration and main casting shapes. As Jerry is saying the way this lathe uses the bed is very much a key feature of its "fingerprint".

J Scott Fischer
02-28-2017, 05:10 PM
Thanks for the replies! Yes its the worlds most unusual lathe!. The banjo and gears are fine I just took them off because I am exploring/cleaning and I need a new stud gear. Its fullsize, by that I mean its capable of machining steel about 6-9" in diameter probably 30" ++ I havent measured. It does work just fine I have some peices I have machined for experimentation.

I just cant get over that there is NO INFO for this, and it seems like a mutt... like its built from other lathes but because there is at least 2 others that I have seen... one from this site and another from another site, It had to have been made by someone. Maybe a startup company that didnt make it very far? I have no idea.

The reverse headstock cover is totally whack, I cant see that on any other major brand. I think I will be fine, I just love trying to find out all the details of something.

I have a friend in the metals industry I will be visiting in the next couple weeks to purchase some stock for the gears I want to make, Ill keep you posted!

Scott

J Tiers
02-28-2017, 05:41 PM
The one I saw appeared to be about a 12" swing.

Is yours smaller? You said a 6" to 9" diameter..... maybe you meant swing over crosslide, which would be about right.

bob_s
02-28-2017, 05:45 PM
There are a myriad of South Bend model A clones, including one made in Canada.

The bed configuration matches that of Matthew Moody and sons, but head stock and carriage 'ne match pas'.

Your picture of the tail stock seems to show a slot cut on the back to allow clamping of the slide. To me that would suggest Jerry's 'frankenlathe' hypothesis.

BCRider
02-28-2017, 05:52 PM
I'm in the same boat with my big all cast iron wood bandsaw. It was made for only a couple of years as a new direction by a Canadian foundry in Quebec. It didn't catch on and the outfit went on to other pursuits or just folded. So me and maybe 50 folks in the world are now the caretakers of a saw of which there were only a few hundred ever made.

It may be that you and the other two folks are in the same situation.

You and the fellow that JTier's found are both located back east. What about the third fellow? If they were a very limited production and the outfit folded before striking the market big I can see where the first run that was sold off during the liquidation of assets might stay in the same geographical region. THAT might be a clue to work with. It would also explain the lack of information on the Lathes of the World web site.

I don't think it's a "bitsa" lathe since the main parts of any lathe are all highly reliant on each other. Any metal lathe is going to be a well thought out product if it has any chance at all. That's not to say that some designer at the company didn't find it easy to take their inspiration from shapes that were already well known in the market place. And that use of well known shapes could be why all of us are saying that different angles look like this or that lathe. But they would not be parts taken directly from other makers and put together.

A search for "bankrupt metal machining companies east coast usa" would not be a bad first search phrase to start the investigation.

J Tiers
02-28-2017, 06:44 PM
I'm NOT buying into the "Frankenlathe" theory..... I'm against it.

With two widely separated examples, each having the same odd features, it seems unlikely. The odd headstock.... the weird bed.... tailstock with that hole in it for no apparent reason..... two bosses on the crosslide. That's the SAME odd features on two machines, with one odd feature on each of the major parts of the lathe....?

Nope, strains the imagination too far to imagine two folks putting the same thing together independently.

Now, if perhaps it was a kit machine? Possibly so.... Or as mentioned, someone's failed product that was made only in one small batch, that's quite possible. There are not very many Minton milling machines around, but there are some. All the odd features seem to bevery possible for a crackpot inventor who didn't know much about what people expected to see in a lathe, or perhaps had some "better ideas" that he believed in even if they hurt sales ("People just didn't understand how much BETTER it was").


.....
You and the fellow that JTier's found are both located back east. What about the third fellow? .......

A search for "bankrupt metal machining companies east coast usa" would not be a bad first search phrase to start the investigation.

I don't know that Missouri counts as "back east" unless you are in the far West.... it's a long way to New Jersey from here.

BCRider
02-28-2017, 06:57 PM
It's a bit more "middle" after all. Please excuse the Canuck that isn't up to speed on his US geography. I was pretty sure it was in the eastern HALF at least. And it looks like I was just BARELY right.

J Scott Fischer
03-01-2017, 12:30 AM
I see how it could be a small run, but there are NO... i mean ZERO numbers, letters on any of the castings anywhere. To me that is very strange, if I made something I would stamp it somewhere... anywhere.

Thats actually not entirely true, I havent looked INSIDE the headstock. I could probably dissasemble that and see if I could look underneath, inside. Maybe it was tagged? there are 2 screws in the front - operator side of the headstock. Maybe that was for a metal nameplate?

So strange. Maybe I will look up "bankrupt east coast machine companies" and see what comes up. I dont know if I have the heart to spend the next few months researching, Im heading towards just making a stud gear and making my own quick change gearbox or adapting an atlas or south bend unit to fit my machine and be done with it.

If anyone comes up with anything else in their spare time, Id love to hear it! Thanks again for the support guys!

J Tiers
03-10-2017, 01:03 PM
While looking for an unrelated picture, I found yet ANOTHER picture of one of these machines. I do not recall anything about the machine or circumstances, but it IS another example and more evidence of the machine being a legitimate product.

This may be one that somebody thought was a Logan. It is not.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0803/jstanley/mystery%20lathe_zpsgnas2obn.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/jstanley/media/mystery%20lathe_zpsgnas2obn.jpg.html)

BCRider
03-10-2017, 02:52 PM
And NONE of the darn things has any sign of any labeling. It's like it's a conspiracy ! ! ! ! :)

The Frankenlathe thing just doesn't pan out anyway. Aside from finding three examples now there are simply far too many features that all need to dovetail together on any lathe. And the chances of matching up a bit of this machine to those parts over there from another lathe are just too wildly unlikely to occur in enough of the features to make this work. It HAS to be a factory made machine.

This latest one sure has seen a rough life. We've got two different size oilers on the head stock and what appears to be chromed lug nuts on the bearing cap hold down studs. Not to mention it almost looks like someone has tested their angle grinders on the machine covers on a regular basis...... poor thing......

bob_s
03-10-2017, 07:37 PM
Sanches and Blanes, judging by the rounded bed pedestals, and the tail stock. The cover on the head stock is different, but the 3 v-belt pulley, back drive is muy como.

Look for a bunch of YouTube videos in Portugese.

kitno455
03-10-2017, 07:46 PM
Sanches and Blanes, judging by the rounded bed pedestals, and the tail stock. The cover on the head stock is different, but the 3 v-belt pulley, back drive is muy como.

Look for a bunch of YouTube videos in Portugese.

I don't think so. Sanches and Blanes were South Bend based- very different apron design, different compound mounting, different tailstock shape, and every one I can find a picture of had a gearbox. They did update to a more square design later, but this is not it. I think we are looking at some kind of Clausing copy.

allan

J Tiers
03-10-2017, 07:49 PM
Sorry, no cigar.

Everything about the Sanches is "somewhat similar". NONE of it is the same.

The S&B has THREE V-ways. Mystery has 2.

The mystery tailstock is different.... The mystery bed is different....The mystery "pedestals" are different... The mystery crosslide is different... the mystery headstock is different.

No, it is a good guess, but it is emphatically not the same.

J Scott Fischer
03-14-2017, 03:04 PM
Its looking like the sanches and blanes thing is lining up as good as anyone could have guessed. Made in mexico south bend clone it appears? Anyone know if a south bend gearbox would fit on this?

softtail
03-14-2017, 03:59 PM
I would actually contact Tony, not just search his site. I suspect he is sitting on much more info than just what is on the site.

J Scott Fischer
03-15-2017, 01:04 PM
Ive contacted tony, he said it looks like a lot of things but not definitive. He said hes putting it in his "mystery machine" pages. I guess thats not a good sign! Im thinking I can adapt a south bend gearbox to this. This is what I really want to know, everything else on the machine works great.

BCRider
03-15-2017, 03:50 PM
Anything is possible with enough work and time of course. But it won't be a simple bolt in place addition by any means. Your first picture in the first post shows that there are no faced off pads or bolt holes to allow a QC box to simply bolt on. The simple bearing for the lead screw is hardly a stable enough point to mount a box. So I'm thinking that some fairly major work would be needed to mount a box and adapt the lead screw and ensure the box holds the lead screw in the original axis to mate with the apron half nuts.

Another thing in looking at your original pictures and those of some SB Model A lathes with boxes is that it looks to me like the lead screw on the SB sits up higher towards the bed than your lathe. That would throw a big wrench into the idea as well. But perhaps get someone with a SB Model A to measure up the lead screw in relation to the bed and post it up so you can check. Pictures are often misleading for any number of reasons.

In the end you may be stuck with locating a set of suitable change gears. It may be a set from a SB or buying individual gears from some supplier then boring them out or bushing them to fit your lathe if required.

I only ever did a couple of single point thread jobs on my old change gear Myford. But it didn't take all that long to set it up each time.

wombat2go
03-15-2017, 04:04 PM
Im thinking I can adapt a south bend gearbox to this. This is what I really want to know, everything else on the machine works great.
I can put up some close up photos of the 9A gb tomorrow.

Another option, and I am thinking of trying this on the SB 9A, is to add a separate motor drive for the leadscrew, for turning, while retaining the change gears just for threading.
But I am not sure of the effect on the surface finish, of asynchronous speed between the chuck and the leadscrew. ..Anyone know?

BCRider
03-15-2017, 04:14 PM
If you can include a dimension from the bed down to the lead screw that would likely help J' as well.

A separate drive for the lead screw for for feed should work fine. The only factor is that you'd loose the set cutting depth per rev that gearing provides. Instead you'd end up with x inches of travel per minute much like a milling machine. And that would translate to a different DOC at the tool as the spindle speed changes. Not a big deal and it seems like it would be something that you could adapt to in short order.

It would be rather slick if you' do this on the outboard end of the lead screw to also include a way to attach a hand wheel and graduations dial to allow precise longitudinal travel amounts. On a machine the size of a Model A SB it would not be an overly awkward reach. I wanted to add such a wheel on my Myford but sold it before I got around to it.

wombat2go
03-15-2017, 04:36 PM
If you can include a dimension from the bed down to the lead screw that would likely help J' as well.

It would be rather slick if you' do this on the outboard end of the lead screw to also include a way to attach a hand wheel and graduations dial to allow precise longitudinal travel amounts. On a machine the size of a Model A SB it would not be an overly awkward reach. I wanted to add such a wheel on my Myford but sold it before I got around to it.

There is a small overhang of the leadscrew on the tailstock end that could be adapted to a coupler.
I don't want to do destructive mods to the old lathe.
I was looking at it recently and i think the easiest non destructive way would be to bolt adaptor on to the idler quadrant, and drive the idler with a gear.
Some of the features I do here, for example "cotton reel" profiles for the bike hubs, would be easier, if the feed had a potentiometer control and a reversing switch.

ieezitin
03-15-2017, 07:01 PM
I dont see any problem mounting a QC-Box... bolt it to the vertical face of the V-way and seat it from underneath, the bolts will be in the horizontal position, you will have to modify the start of the lead screw, all the alignment X Y Z will have to be taken up in the gearbox by packing or removing material, if you take your time and study it it should not take no longer than a weekend worth of work.

Anthony.

J Tiers
03-15-2017, 08:06 PM
Well, the big deal is getting the leadscrew drive to line up with the screw position on the machine. That may require milling off the mounting flange and putting a new one on in a different position, or other invasive things to do.

Depends on what the box is like. If the box is short of the right position, and needs to be moved out, and/or down, that's one thing. If it is too big and puts the screw out too far and too low, that's quite another proposition, requiring a lot more work.

It is much easier to put a "shiim" or "filler piece" in, than it is to remove material or an entire feature and have to re-create it in a different position.

BCRider
03-15-2017, 09:00 PM
And let's not forget that once the box is mounted after a lot of checking and possible modifications then he needs to cut down the lead screw and stub it so it fits into the socket and gets cross drilled for the shear pin.

A weekend? Maybe a SLEEPLESS weekend.......

wombat2go
03-16-2017, 10:08 AM
Anyone know if a south bend gearbox would fit on this?
Photos of SB9A gearbox:

https://app.box.com/s/whbdo049lx1ljnkrnyk98al257u0h1x6
https://app.box.com/s/5plvavdy6vqsccdwnizd70xmkcrvei42
https://app.box.com/s/egk5qafpe4p0hyuioeh9rs19o04klwuw
https://app.box.com/s/jih6fjmjtsuaq7nh4md91dpglp3e8xu5

J Scott Fischer
03-18-2017, 09:26 PM
Wow thanks! This makes it much easier to see. Obviously im gonna spend as much on the box as i did the lathe but.... still a great option to have all those feed rates without having to switch gears all the time. The other thing I was thinking about is making my own gearbox, but Im either going to have to make all those gears or Ill have to buy a full gearset, all of these options probably cost about the same. I have a connection where I can get cast iron, bronze and brass at mill prices but still have to go through all the rigamarole and hours of machining welding etc.

Very very cool. Ill keep everyone posted although I wont be able to get to it just yet, Im in the middle of moving out of state with my family... so ... lots to do!!!