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J Tiers
03-03-2017, 11:04 AM
I have a model 4353 H/V bandsaw, which has the hydraulic damper feed mechanism.

The idea is fine, but I have found that all the action is in a tiny bit of the adjustment. From "0" to "1" on the dial is more than enough to go from no feed, to a feed best used for pinewood, or maybe balsa. Set to "1" is no good for metal, even aluminum.

I would like to spread out the adjustment, at least doubling it, so that there is much more settability. it is so sensitive now that it is very difficult to set for any slow feed, and I end up having to hold the tip of the saw frame up during cuts of maximum size steel rounds or bars, so that it does not jam or break the blade.

Some of this may be that I use an intermediate tooth count blade for everything, instead of replacing the blade for each different size of cut. But the feed is still sensitive and hard to set.

Options to change the feed to allow more adjustment include:

A more tapered needle, more like an SU carburetor needle

A different orifice

heavier oil

?????

The manual specifies SAE10 oil. It may be that a heavier oil might change the behavior. I am by no means sure whether it would really spread out the adjustment, though. Might just move it so the action is from 0.5 to 1.5, instead of 0-1.

A change in orifice seems as if it might be about the same as a change of oil.

I have not taken the unit apart yet (I use it enough to not want to have it out of action), so I do not know if there is room for a more tapered needle.

Has anyone modified their feed to spread out the adjustments?

garyhlucas
03-03-2017, 01:54 PM
Are you sure the needle isn't actually damaged? Happens real easy.

BCRider
03-03-2017, 02:00 PM
Have you looked at the needle yet? If you are contemplating an actual mechanical switch then one way or the other you need to strip down the cylinder anyway. At least partially. So inspecting the existing needle and seat would seem to be the prudent first step.

If it is a really fast taper that looks more like a cone than a taper then I'd say that you need to look into a new needle that has an actual taper. Nothing as long and slow as a carb needle. That would be gross overkill.

Consider too that you will likely need to work within a limited length since the threads on the needle are only so long and allow only so much travel. So likely as not you will need to start with a fairly low angle taper that just allows you to fully close the valve and then thru trial and error adjust the taper to spread out the leakage rate while still allowing the dialing to "10" to fully unblock the orifice for easy movements.

If it were me I think I'd also look at the idea of a parallel ball valve I could use for bypassing the restrictor for manual positioning. That way I can easily lower it to the work then close the bypass and still have the setting for soft feeding intact without needing to fuss over it.

mattthemuppet
03-03-2017, 04:47 PM
heavier oil would be the easiest by far. Made an oversize (and not in a good way) difference to my hydraulic press..

George Seal
03-03-2017, 04:55 PM
j
give us a picture

Will PM you

Alistair Hosie
03-03-2017, 05:34 PM
If you use any kind of thinner oil it will not work well. I learned this at my cost to end up having to buy a much thicker variety, as the thinner stuff was useless quite useless actually. I was advised by one of our friends here what to buy ,bought it and never looked back. The pot in general will show a marked improvement in overall performance. Alistair

Paul Alciatore
03-03-2017, 10:45 PM
What about the balance? If there is too much weight pulling it down, then it will go too fast. Could it need a counterweight or perhaps a counteracting spring has become weak or broken. I have one of the ever popular 4X6s and it has a spring that can be adjusted for more or less downward pressure on the blade.

J Tiers
03-03-2017, 10:52 PM
OK, nobody has an Atlas saw.... The thing is pretty standard looking, but has the hydraulic damper to regulate feed. The feed source is the weight of the saw frame, which is considerable. The damper slows the "fall" of the frame. No springs are used, no counterweights, none of the "make do" garbage on many import saws.

My saw is in very good condition, it is not a "beater", and shows no evidence of modifications or abuse. This link has pics

http://vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/detail.aspx?id=13354

Cylinder is this, located on the backside of the saw.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0803/jstanley/machines/Atlas%204353%20saw/IMG_3968_zpszbxepn32.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/jstanley/media/machines/Atlas%204353%20saw/IMG_3968_zpszbxepn32.jpg.html)

Dial for regulating is this, seen above the cylinder in previous pic

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0803/jstanley/machines/Atlas%204353%20saw/IMG_3969_zpsetvaufvs.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/jstanley/media/machines/Atlas%204353%20saw/IMG_3969_zpsetvaufvs.jpg.html)

So....

The feed is nearly zero with the dial at zero. At "1",as shown in the pic, it feeds at between 1 and maybe 1.5 mm per second, which is not useful for much. At 3 or 4, it is essentially a "rapid", feeding at 5 or 10 mm per second, which is good for nothing but warm butter.

The 1.5mm per second is a feed rate I would prefer to have at maybe 2 or 3 on the dial. The useful feeds now are mostly between "zero" and maybe "0.5" on the dial. I do not recall ever using even "1", and certainly not "2" or "3", at least not for anything except a "rapid". I could live with a slower "rapid" if I could get a slower feed and more spread-out useful range.

The design is a one-way valve, so it resets when lifted, no adjustment needed. It then descends at the rate set on the dial. That works, and since it stays "up" at "zero", I do not suspect a leak of any sort that could bypass the valve. If there were any such leak, it should descend even with the flow shut off. But it stays up at zero, and that setting can be used to hold it up while clamping the material, adjusting the blade guide , and so forth.

The progression of rates seems linear enough, or at least seems to have no spots of sudden change, such as a damaged needle might produce.

The problem is simply that the useful range of the dial is from zero to perhaps "0.6" or so (estimated) on the dial. resetting is not possible, because the dial has no provision for a pointer, etc, so the tight range is harder to use than would be preferred. With the same range spread out, one could have a better shot at adjusting to a useful rate.

Also, related to that, the very slow rates, usable for the largest solid pieces to be cut, are compressed into a microscopic range near zero. So I have to manually lower the saw for such pieces, the "damper" is of little use, at least during the middle of cuts on large rounds.

I have NOT taken it apart, I actually do not know that I need to, yet. I do NOT know what oil is in it now, but since the specified oil, SAE 10, is nearly the thinnest motor oil one can buy, the odds are that there is not a thinner than spec oil loaded into the cylinder. Without a viscosity measurement setup, I won't know what is in it now, so I have no "starting point".

The question is because I figured others may have already solved this "problem", and may have successful experience to share about it, either in terms of modifications, or in terms of good SAE numbers for thicker oil to use.



heavier oil would be the easiest by far. Made an oversize (and not in a good way) difference to my hydraulic press..

Not exactly sure what is meant there.... presume it slowed the action, pumped much slower and harder, etc.

But what I want is to spread out the range of flows through an adjustable orifice. That might be different, or it might be just what I want. Was hoping someone had tried it and could report they changed from SAE 10 to SAE XX and had such and so results.

becksmachine
03-03-2017, 11:26 PM
No experience with that specific model, but much with the hydraulic feed regulating system such as that.

Greater viscosity might help the existing feed regulation problem, but might create another. If it is always in a climate controlled environment temperature won't be an issue. If not, viscosity changes due to temperature will be accentuated with the heavier oil.

There is no rocket science in that valve, probably not even any algebra. It sounds like it might not even be a needle type. Pull it apart and see what it takes to make it like one.

Dave

digr
03-03-2017, 11:41 PM
I had to rebuild the cylinder on my Kalamazoo saw and I was surprised how small the hole was that the needle valve seated in, take a look and see what you have. Both my Wellsaw and the Kalamazoo have helper springs to aid the cylinder. I take it that your saw doesn't use springs.

digr
03-03-2017, 11:47 PM
I suppose that you already have the manual (http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/51/16693.pdf) for the saw. The needle may be busted off.

J Tiers
03-03-2017, 11:48 PM
It's a needle type, moved in and out by turn of the dial, IIRC, as stated somewhere that I cannot recall, by one who DID take it apart.

I really didn't want to make it a project right now, basically looking for anyone who has experience working with it.

The whole thing came up when I wanted to cut some medium diameter stock for a totally different project. Got the feed a little fast, and ended up having to take apart the saw to un-jam the blade. So I figured to set the ball in motion to see if there was any wisdom out there.

It IS in controlled temp, 60 to 80 deg year 'round, so viscosity changes are not a very big deal.

Looks like I may be the only owner of one of these on the forum..... I did not think they were that rare.

Google drive has the manual, which shows the parts list and breakdown at the end

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6wRLMxPeVaiNzNmMTcxZWUtNjNlYy00ZjEyLTg1MjktYWFlM GZkNGM1OGI4/view?ddrp=1&hl=en

gvasale
03-04-2017, 12:31 AM
Same saw was sold as Craftsman. I have one. Never paid too much attention to numbers when cutting.
i saw one at a flea market last summer...left it there. The nylon bevel gears are a weak spot. Probably NLA by now as with most stuff from Sears.

J Tiers
03-04-2017, 01:04 AM
Same saw was sold as Craftsman. I have one. Never paid too much attention to numbers when cutting.
i saw one at a flea market last summer...left it there. The nylon bevel gears are a weak spot. Probably NLA by now as with most stuff from Sears.

OK, so you are saying it never is an issue for you? Does it still feed slowly enough to be reasonable when set at 2 or 3?

The gears do not worry me too much. I can make bevel gears, but so far no issues, so no need.


I had to rebuild the cylinder on my Kalamazoo saw and I was surprised how small the hole was that the needle valve seated in, take a look and see what you have. Both my Wellsaw and the Kalamazoo have helper springs to aid the cylinder. I take it that your saw doesn't use springs.

And does not NEED springs. Obviously a spring would only increase the feed, unless it was somehow used to counterbalance the saw.


I suppose that you already have the manual (http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/51/16693.pdf) for the saw. The needle may be busted off.

I do not see just how that would be even possible.

The saw adjusts fine, over a large range, which seems to suggest the valve is working.

If it went instantly from "off" to a large feed, THEN I would suppose it might be broken off. But the adjustment is smooth and wide range, and shows no sort of instant jumps. it CAN be set to any speed you want, from zero to too fast, without the sort of action I'd expect from a broken valve. The problem is that the range is biased toward the higher speeds.

I've no idea what would reach in there and break the valve anyway. The unit does not look like it was ever taken apart.

flylo
03-04-2017, 01:37 AM
I'm betting the needle valve or seat is bad, worn, damaged & needs repaired or replaced. A heavier oil may be a fix but I doubt the right one but if it works. #100 Mineral oil is 50 wt aircraft oil with no additives for about $6/qt. Or can you restrict the air intake?

Boostinjdm
03-04-2017, 01:46 AM
Of the half dozen or so saws I have used, they all had the same issue. Ideal feed was about a quarter turn off lock. All of those saws also had counter balance springs. I think my Ellis manual says to adjust till the head takes 8 lbs to lift off horizontal. My HF saw didn't have a cylinder. Only a spring. Once adjusted, it worked well.

carlquib
03-04-2017, 01:58 AM
Maybe not actually broken off. I have a different saw, but same arrangement. I bought mine in pieces for a pittance. I ended up replacing the needle valve because it had been screwed in so tight it deformed the needle and seat. It exhibited the behavior you are describing. With the new valve it spread the useful adjustment back out to almost a full turn. I also had to replace some o-rings in the bypass valve in the piston, probably the cause of the valve being closed to tightly in the first place.

Hello, my name is Brian and I'm a toolaholic

wierdscience
03-04-2017, 04:40 AM
Could be the needle valve is damaged,the one on our Wellsaw at work is,the hole is worn out too big and the 0-10 scale goes from 0 to free fall drop at 1.

Increasing the viscosity might make a difference,but most likely will just shift the fall off the Earth point further down the scale.I well say that hydraulic jack oil works better than common lube oil or GP hydraulic oil in the Wellsaw.

Black Forest
03-04-2017, 06:43 AM
I don't know why you don't just take the cylinder and valve apart and have a look. Seems like a simple and fast way to actually know what is going on. Or just put a larger diameter knob on top! Drain the oil, put heavier weight oil in the system and try it out. That shouldn't take but a few minutes. If the heavier oil doesn't help then put the original oil back in or not.

J Tiers
03-04-2017, 09:37 AM
I don't know why you don't just take the cylinder and valve apart and have a look. Seems like a simple and fast way to actually know what is going on. ....

Mostly because It is "usable" as-is, I have been using it for 15 years with the existing oil, AND I do not want a repair project inside of what I am doing now. But it has been an annoyance for 15 years, and I do plan to fix it when I get a chance.

I am hoping to collect info from folks who HAVE the same type saw and may have found a solution. No sense re-inventing the wheel. So far almost nobody here seems to have any first-hand knowledge of it, and most have never even seen one of the saws, so obviously well-meaning advice, but not from first hand knowledge of the machine.

From what Boostinjdm says, the issue seems to be common.

Carlquib says he had same symptoms with a similar unit, but that saw also had other problems, which this one does not seem to show, since only a light closure of the valve stops the movement.

Wierd: It has control clear through the range, no zero to free fall, the control is just in the wrong range of speeds.

boslab
03-04-2017, 10:10 AM
We had an old saw in work that had a broken cylinder, we decided (mainly me) to experiment, so I ordered a liner actuator about the same length, made some plates to adapt it set up a psu (electrician did, I was banned due to lack of certification) and bingo, it worked so well we did another saw as well, infinitely adjustable speed, the technician even rigged a speed display (very pretty)
Just an idea for you
You could alter sensitivity by having a variable angle on the cylynder think cosine error
But I'm going to think about that later
2 complicated?, change the oil, it's the easy way as all my learned friends correctly propose (just read a legal courtroom book and loved "learned friends")
Harder change the valve, as was in my exam once "throttling of a fluid is a constant energy process, explain and illustrate, show mathematical proof ((10 mid)) the valve orrifice may be too big
Mark

Seastar
03-04-2017, 11:41 AM
As Mark hints at, the needle valve may have been designed incorrectly to start with.
Those kind of things are common in all sorts of machines.
If that's the case, your solution will be very difficult unless you are an expert in fluid flow dynamics.
I have no advice for you.
Good luck.
Bill

jhe.1973
03-04-2017, 12:53 PM
.................................. and I do plan to fix it when I get a chance.
........................

Famous last words!

:D

J Tiers
03-04-2017, 11:58 PM
So I finished the other project, and took the advice to look into the hydraulic cylinder, against my better judgement.

SAE30 is much too heavy, a lot of pressure builds up in the system, and even opening it pretty wide does not give enough flow. Did I mention that the pressure is enough to splatter oil on the ceiling?

So I made another needle valve. There was nothing at all wrong with the original one when I took it out to look at it.

Don't ask me to explain why I made another one...........

The original, sorry for fuzzy picture.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0803/jstanley/machines/Atlas%204353%20saw/IMG_3971_zpshfxedaod.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/jstanley/media/machines/Atlas%204353%20saw/IMG_3971_zpshfxedaod.jpg.html)

The new one.... Needle a little longer and more shallowly tapered.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0803/jstanley/machines/Atlas%204353%20saw/IMG_3972_zpsk5igdi1z.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/jstanley/media/machines/Atlas%204353%20saw/IMG_3972_zpsk5igdi1z.jpg.html)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0803/jstanley/machines/Atlas%204353%20saw/IMG_3973_zpsjsphtrg9.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/jstanley/media/machines/Atlas%204353%20saw/IMG_3973_zpsjsphtrg9.jpg.html)

I do not yet know if it is suitable, I need to get some SAE 10 oil somewhere. Most places do NOT have it.

becksmachine
03-05-2017, 12:06 AM
Good on you!!

Obviously a rather tiny orifice, find some synthetic.

Dave

BCRider
03-05-2017, 12:07 AM
I got some ISO something that is the same as the 10wt from NAPA. And I believe they are pretty common through most of the US?

Or try a motorcycle shop for fork oil. Good stuff used in the forks. No idea if it's got any detergent or not but it's intended for forks which are largely like the cylinders on bandsaws. They have it in a wide variety of weights to allow folks to tune their suspensions.

J Tiers
03-05-2017, 12:16 AM
Yeah, gotta look around. There may be an ISO hydraulic oil that is thinner. ISO 68 seems to be SAE 20, might work, but I'd like to try 10 first, whih seems to be ISO 46


Good on you!!

Obviously a rather tiny orifice, find some synthetic.

Dave

The needle OD is 0.070 point on original was 0,020.

Boostinjdm
03-05-2017, 12:17 AM
Isn't hydraulic jack oil about 10w? Available at any wally world or part store.

Willy
03-05-2017, 01:10 AM
If it were me and I didn't want to look for a single grade SAE 10 oil I would try a common 10w30 engine oil.
Don't forget that there is always going to be a bit of latitude on oil viscosity from various sources, no hard and fast definitive or precise standards.
The common 10w30 will definitely get you in the ballpark and you can always use it one of the vehicles if need be, unlike a straight 10 weight or an ISO hydraulic oil.
Just a thought.

https://assets.hemmings.com/blog/wp-content/uploads//2014/04/viscosity_03_600.jpg

https://assets.hemmings.com/blog/wp-content/uploads//2014/04/viscosity_01_450.jpg

J Tiers
03-05-2017, 01:26 AM
Problem with the 10W30 is it is really SAE 30 oil.

The 10 part as I understand it is that it acts, in winter (when cold), like straight SAE 10, but when warm is SAE 30. I already know SAE 30 is way too viscous for the machine, it hardly moved even when unscrewed almost all the way, which is how the trouble started.

The oil that was in it may have been too thin. Might have been a thin oil, or cut with kerosene, or ??? It was more like water than oil as far as "visible" or "behavioral" viscosity.

jhe.1973
03-05-2017, 01:36 AM
What we were taught back in auto shop was that 10w30 is the thickness of a 10W but has the film strength of a 30W. When heated, it is also supposed to keep from thinning as much as a straight 10w.

If that is true, you should be fine with a 10W30.

J Tiers
03-05-2017, 01:56 AM
Seems to be more or less as I said.

I looked at a few resources, varying from wikipedia to auto sites and engineering sites. Result is that the 10W30 acts like SAE 10 at cold temps, and acts like SAE 30 at engine operating temps. What it is at room temp is not known / not specified, but will be thicker than 10, and thinner than 30, most likely.

basically the 10W30 multigrade oil is made to be some intermediate grade, with additives that prevent it from thickening more than a straight 10 would at a cold temp, and also prevent it from thinning more than an SAE 30 would when hot. Who knows what it is at medium temps, nobody cares.

Mostly, 10W30 always has poured like a thicker oil when putting it in the vehicle, so I don't think it really acts like an SAE 10 unless cold.

Black Forest
03-05-2017, 04:10 AM
S

Don't ask me to explain why I made another one...........



Lets see, you were testing the needle in the valve body holding the saw up with your other hand and when you lowered the saw the oil squirted up covered the needle and it launched like a missle. Just look in the ceiling. It is probably stuck like a dart! :cool:

Now don't ask me how I know!

J Tiers
03-05-2017, 11:08 AM
Lets see, you were testing the needle in the valve body holding the saw up with your other hand and when you lowered the saw the oil squirted up covered the needle and it launched like a missle. Just look in the ceiling. It is probably stuck like a dart! :cool:

Now don't ask me how I know!

Nein.......

If you MUST know, one is supposed to raise ans lower the saw several times to drive out the air from the system. The oil was so thick the needle had to be unscrewed a lot. In fact until it was no longer screwed in, although it stays in, LOOKS / FEELS as if screwed in, because of an o-ring.

Yes, it came out of there like a Katyusha, and it did NOT stick in the overhead. But the oil did.

Willy
03-05-2017, 01:18 PM
Problem with the 10W30 is it is really SAE 30 oil.

The 10 part as I understand it is that it acts, in winter (when cold), like straight SAE 10, but when warm is SAE 30. I already know SAE 30 is way too viscous for the machine, it hardly moved even when unscrewed almost all the way, which is how the trouble started.

The oil that was in it may have been too thin. Might have been a thin oil, or cut with kerosene, or ??? It was more like water than oil as far as "visible" or "behavioral" viscosity.


Not quite, more accurately is that the 10 weight simply does not see a reduction in viscosity, still meeting SAE 30 weight viscosity specs at 212 F.

At 0 F it has the properties of a 10 weight oil. Due to the viscosity index stabilizers and the polymers inherent to multi grade oils, and the 10W30 in particular, the viscosity of the oil is very stable.
Unlike a straight grade 10 weight oil the viscosity of 10W30 meets the viscosity requirements of a 10 weight at 0 F and still meets the SAE 30 weight viscosity specification at 212 F. A SAE 30 weight oil at room temperature is very viscous yet at 212 F it's viscosity has decreased considerably. A straight grade SAE 10 weight oil would of course be much thinner at elevated temps.

This is the beauty of a multi weight oil, it's viscosity is very stable. The 10W30 might be ever so slightly more viscous at room temperature than a straight grade 10 weight but you would require some fairly specific lab equipment to be able to discern the difference. This only due to effect of the polymers in the multi grade oil not allowing much change in viscosity and the relatively narrow temperature range in question.

Case in point is the front suspension on a motorcycle I have that requires the use of An SAE 10 weight oil in the forks. I find that in most cases this works fine. However in extremely hot weather the dampening effect of the now very warm oil is insufficient to meet my requirements. However simply switching to an SAE 10W30 oil allows me to enjoy the compliance that I need in cooler weather without loosing that level of dampening on a very hot day. The 10W30 simply stays in grade much better. The fact that these types of applications do not expose the oils to the stresses of shear forces during their use means that the stability of the polymers used as viscosity index improvers will remain virtually unchanged for decades.

mattthemuppet
03-05-2017, 03:10 PM
I'd 2nd the recommendation of motorbike fork oil. the dampers in those (and bike forks, which is what I use it for) have very small orifices and you can get them in a very wide range of weights, from 5 to 20W (perhaps 25W), usually about $6-8 for a small bottle. They're alot thinner than hydraulic jack and engine oil. You can also easily mix them to create intermediate weights and there are probably online calculators somewhere that tell you what volume of each weight will = what weight.

I've even added a squirt of hydraulic jack oil to some 5W fork oil to thicken it up a bit. Not to increase damping rate but to slow the rate at which is was pissing past the damper seals. Seems to have worked :)

lakeside53
03-05-2017, 03:14 PM
For something maybe lying around, check your spindle oil weight. I use Velocite 6 and 10... just light weight hydraulic oil.

J Tiers
03-05-2017, 03:53 PM
What spindle oil? Nothing here uses anything but grease. When I get the 608 in operation, then I will need some. What uses oil uses heavier oil.

It sure is hard to find oil to buy.... I can get lots of ISO46, which would be fine, except I have to buy a pail of it. I need about 6 oz. The pail would replace oil for everyone on this forum who has an Atlas saw, and there would be leftovers.

Jack oil is "allegedly" the same as SAE10, and it "kinda sloshes like that", but I don't know what it is, because AutoZone. O'ReillyZone, NAPAZone, and AdvanceZone etc have stuff that merely says what part numbers it replaces. Or else the bottle assures you that it is "really good stuff" in one way or another.

Have not got to a cycle store, they are way out and I won't get to one for a while.

AND, I really have little idea what I want..... IF what was in it was actually SAE 10, it's probably too thin. SAE 30 is WAY too thick. But I cannot be sure that the original stuff was 10, it seemed thinner, as if it might have been cut with kerosene etc, although I cannot claim to be a judge of oil viscosity by eye.

I may end up with jack oil.

Willy
03-05-2017, 05:38 PM
Do you have the means to perhaps do a rudimentary viscosity test to order find some basis of the oil to be used? All it takes is a small fixed orifice, a graduated beaker or two and a stop watch in order to time a predetermined volume of the oil in question thru the orifice.

Like Matt mentioned, you can blend your own custom weight. This isn't a very stressful application for the oil. You can dilute an existing oil that is too thick in order to achieve the viscosity requirements you need. It doesn't have to meet any rigorous application requirements. Any left overs can be used for general lubrication or rust prevention around the shop. You need not spend a lot for anything exotic that you have no other purpose for. The raw materials are probably already on your shelf. Just keep a record of your test samples so that the winning formula can be repeated in the future.

I know this sounds like a lot of hurdles to jump thru but given that you are so close this may be another tool to fine tune your existing combination.

J Tiers
03-05-2017, 05:57 PM
Oh, I figure to dilute it as needed. Not sure what with, as the problem is getting thinner oil. Most of what is available is thicker than needed. What I have for thin oil is not in quantities sufficient for dilution.

There seems to be a real conspiracy to prevent anyone from knowing what the oil in the bottle really is.... It is listed by application "to make it simple for the consumer" so you buy as many different products as possible, without knowing that half or more of them are the same thing.

I actually want to try real SAE 10, and then proceed from there.

Knowing 30 is way too heavy, I am guessing 20 is also. That leaves 10, which I can "dilute" with lighter or heavier to get where I like it. SAE 10 is not available locally with a rating on it. Jack oil may be the same, without a rating.

No viscosity stuff, other than what is used for paint. But it is no matter, the old oil was not caught in enough quantity to get a reading anyhow. I had been meaning to top it up in any case, and the way it comes out is hard to catch.

10KPete
03-05-2017, 06:26 PM
I have found that lamp oil or kerosene works very well in the cylinder on my saw. Made the system myself with an air cylinder and a flow control valve.

Water would have been fine except I don't like rust.:rolleyes:

Pete

Willy
03-05-2017, 06:30 PM
If the system is sealed any petroleum based solvent should do as it's use in a sealed system should preclude the loss of any of the aromatic constituents, or at least should be negligible over the long term.

becksmachine
03-05-2017, 06:36 PM
I don't think "too thin" is an issue, especially given your beautifully made replacement needle.

A "to thin" fluid may shorten the usable range of adjustment, compared to an optimum fluid, but of what consequence is 2 turns vs 4 turns or 3 vs 8 given the original range was 1/4 turn.

I did suggest synthetic oil earlier, maybe you saw that? Readily available in the thinner viscosities.

Dave

ww_big_al
03-05-2017, 06:59 PM
couple choices. Mobil DTE 24 is a good 10 wright hydraulic oil, As mention earlier Volocite 10 spindle oil, or transmission oil. Dextron III

J Tiers
03-05-2017, 07:13 PM
....

I did suggest synthetic oil earlier, maybe you saw that? Readily available in the thinner viscosities.

Dave

I didn't see that to be available locally, I'd have bought it if I had seen it.

Gonna do jack oil and go from there. Hopefully will only need heavier mixed in, if anything. I guess when I get done I WILL know jack (oil).

mattthemuppet
03-05-2017, 08:04 PM
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0041CDW7G/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=3GXE3MGU54W68&coliid=I17LDDZSBZR2DM

click, pay, delivered. Buy a 5W one while you're at it. Super simple.

lakeside53
03-05-2017, 08:14 PM
yep... select what you want and, click. As I just posted on PM, buying "jack oil" without an actual ISO rating is like buying "compressor oil"; there is no "one size fits all"; you might get lucky or not.

If you have a local "O'Reilly's Auto parts" - less than $5 and pick up in 24 hours. http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/PGDN/ND10/N0427.oap?ck=Search_non-detergent+oil_1270022_3709&keyword=non-detergent+oil

Many other possibilities.

J Tiers
03-06-2017, 10:53 AM
Well, the on-line sources would be just now processing my order.

But I filled it with jack oil and it is actually working fine. Gotta go do client work now.

Willy
03-06-2017, 11:16 AM
Ha ha ha ha!

We do tend to get a little esoteric now and then and in a quest for an answer over-think the obvious.

Was this with the new needle valve?

J Tiers
03-06-2017, 01:04 PM
Client has been made happy...... so more time to comment.

Saw now has the range at least 3x the way it was. Maybe more. Lots better.

The new needle may be doing some also. (After it was ejected, the old one looked like a banana, clearly was not gonna work.)

If anyone has to do the oil replacement:

1) take cylinder off.... loosen setscrew on top pivot. Remove drive pulley, take off ring clip, loosen the horizontal / vertical cylinder release nut, and remove cylinder.

2) Unscrew regulator needle and pull out.

3) Pour out what will come out into receptacle. turn over cylinder and work piston in and out to force out the remaining oil. It may help to put it vertical while pulling out, then push in while upsy down.

4) Re-install on saw.

5) Fill tube with oil t 1/2 inch below top, lift saw gently, let it bubble air out, let down gently. Fill again, repeat process until no more bubbling, oil stays at same level. Fill once more, then push in needle ans screw in place.

This will be MESSY. When you lift the saw, oil will come out if you go too fast. When you let saw down, oil will come out if you go too fast, in fact it will SHOOT out. When you put in the needle, oil will come out.

If you mess up the needle, I can help with ideas for making another. Not that bad to do, but takes some care.

aribert
03-07-2017, 12:27 PM
Interesting thread. I have the Sears version - never considered that it would be an Atlas (Clausing) - but it certainly makes sense considering the Sears/Atlas lathes. On mine the blades started jumping off all of a sudden back in '05. Monkeyed with it a bit, bushed several worn out rotating components and replaced the blade all with no positive effect so I shoved it into a corner to deal with "when I have time to get around to it". It serves a storage rack for other items. Fortunately I have a horizontal bandsaw and a messy chop saw that still work.

J Tiers
03-07-2017, 01:07 PM
Various causes for blades coming off.

Oil on the blade

Swarf on blade and pulleys.

Swarf jamming the guide wheels

Guide wheels misaligned

Blade tension wrong

Possibly one of the blade wheels has loosened its axle, or the axle has become bent or misaligned.

Wheel crown messed up

Pretty much all the same stuff that applies to a belt sander applies to the saw.

The exact cause depends on when the blade jumps. If during a cut, may be swarf rfelated, if just running but not cutting, other things.

JCHannum
03-09-2017, 11:20 AM
I have the same saw for 20+ years now, and have no problem with speed control when set up properly. The cylinder does leak and requires topping off from time to time. I use plain old spindle oil in mine.

I can't locate the manual right now, but do recall dismantling, cleaning and refurbing the cylinder several years ago. I am pretty sure I remember a cup leather on the piston. If this is worn, nothing can be done with the bleed valve to improve feed. You might need to make a new piston to use O-rings if cup leather is shot and a replacement cannot be located.

J Tiers
03-09-2017, 11:35 AM
I have the same saw for 20+ years now, and have no problem with speed control when set up properly. The cylinder does leak and requires topping off from time to time. I use plain old spindle oil in mine.

I can't locate the manual right now, but do recall dismantling, cleaning and refurbing the cylinder several years ago. I am pretty sure I remember a cup leather on the piston. If this is worn, nothing can be done with the bleed valve to improve feed. You might need to make a new piston to use O-rings if cup leather is shot and a replacement cannot be located.

No problems there, it was the valve. Seems to work nicely now.

You can easily tell which is the issue. If the saw stays up when the valve is shut off, then the cylinder is fine.