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View Full Version : Help with pronunciation of a german to English translation.Please? Alistair



Alistair Hosie
03-11-2017, 05:08 PM
Ok to get this sorted once and for all. Which is correct HARDINGE.
Is it properly pronounced as I believe after living in Deutschland for five years and speaking THEN (not quite so perfect today of course LOL )

Hard ding-geh?

or
Hard in jeh?

I know Dinge is pronounced Din-geh when using it in normal Deutsch or German if you prefer, I.E The spoken word. Dinge means * thing.*

I know of no JEH ending as to my knowledge Dinj or hard-dinj pronunciation does not exist help me if I am wrong? Please Black Forest or Evan,or any other Meister Deutsch Sprecher? LOL

This ending is nearly always used by English speakers as dinj. From what I hear when the word is used say for example by Tubal-Mr pete who ends the word ending with geh a hard guttural as in Hard - dingeh

I understand the typing I.E My typing is incorrect I just altered it as best I could to get as near to what the sound comes across as to me . MY attempt at explaining what I hear for better or worse.
Brotherly love as always Alistair

Evan
03-11-2017, 07:59 PM
In this case since the H is at the end then do not pronounce it. Pretend it doesn't exist. There are some (just a few) German words that break the usual rules such as der Flagge which has two g's to give a hard "geh" (not the J sound but the g as in "gut", not usual in German. (Flag)

Har-ding-eh is correct. Ding as in ding-dong. Not as in the English "dinge" as in "din-jy"

bl00
03-11-2017, 08:03 PM
Here's one of their promotional videos. The name is pronounced 5 seconds in. Sounds like Har dinj to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzDiC74qQic

Evan
03-11-2017, 08:07 PM
English mispronunciation in that video.

Go here and listen to the German 3, 4 and 5. They have real German accents.

http://www.pronouncekiwi.com/Hardinge%20Brothers

When I speak German in Germany I am mistaken for a local. That actually applies to any language I speak and even English in different parts of North America. Don't know why I do that, it is some sort of habit. Wherever I am within a sentence or two I always sound like a local. Most likely thanks to my mother that speaks five languages flawlessly.

I do have to be a bit careful though. If I start thinking in Danish I will speak English with a Danish accent.

bl00
03-11-2017, 08:20 PM
I suppose it's one of those "when in Rome" things. I'm guessing that a German promotional video for Hardinge would pronounce the name like a German just as the American one pronounces it like an American. Is it correct that the company is American and founded by Canadians with a German name? If the company made the video then I would assume they believe the name is pronounced correctly.

Evan
03-11-2017, 08:31 PM
May well be but we commonly import words into English. If we are going to do that then we should also import the correct pronunciation. The name is Scandinavian/German. So am I.

I neglected to mention that the "r" should have a bit of a roll on it, at least in the Southern half of Germany.

Weston Bye
03-11-2017, 08:51 PM
Everyone who I have ever heard pronounce the name here in Michigan pronounced it "-dinge," even some German transplants. When in Rome, I suppose.

Of course, I live in a town named Grand Blanc, but the proper pronunciation is Grand Blank. Ask anyone who lives here. Might have been otherwise in 1822, but today it is Grand Blank for any local alive to speak the name.

J Tiers
03-12-2017, 12:03 AM
As far as I know the is no "jeh" sound in "German". so "har- ding - geh" seems right.

These things are strange sometimes.

St Louis is a French origin city, to a considerable extent. There are some street names which seem to be pronounced wrong wrong but may be correct.

1) "Gravois". French would be something like "gra-vwah". It is actually pronounced "gra-voy" here. Research seems to indicate the "gra-voy" is actually close to how the French who lived here really DID pronounce it.

2) "Chouteau". French should be something like "shoo-tow". The actual pronunciation is "Show-tow". Again, it seems that Monsieur Chouteau may have actually pronounced his name similarly to "Show-tow".

On the other hand, "Des Peres" (a local town) is pronounced as it should be in French, something like "day-pair".

The "proper" pronunciation is what the persons with the name say it is, frankly. So if they called themselves "Har-dinj", then that is what it is.

Myself, I learned German long ago (and have forgotten much through disuse). But some of it has stuck. To me, when I see German names, I always think of them in German pronunciation. "Weber" is to me pronounced "Vay-ber", for instance. usually however, the folks with the name would of course say "web-er".

6PTsocket
03-12-2017, 01:10 AM
This sounds like a repeat of the recent thread over the pronunciation of Knipex, that went on for pages, complete with video ads from the US and Germany.The fact is people change or mispronounce names all the time, even in the same country. Houston, a city in Texas is also a street in New York City where it is pronounced HOUSE-ton St. We import and mispronounce foreign place names all rhe time. LEE-ma, Peru became
LIME-a, Ohio. ma-DRID, Spain became New MAD-drid, Missouri. BO-ga-taw(Bogota), Columbia is Also a town in NJ pronounced ba-GO-duh. We say tamale in English. The word does not exist in Spanish. One is a TAMAL, more than one are TAMALES. People are not even straight on Porshe. That little e that is pronounced like an a on the end of German words is often dropped in English.

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Black Forest
03-12-2017, 03:20 AM
Har-ding-eh

Arcane
03-12-2017, 03:31 AM
My name is Mace. There is only one pronunciation to that word regardless of all the meanings it has but you should see...err...hear some people try to pronounce it.

Evan
03-12-2017, 04:08 AM
While we are on names my name, Evan is from the Welsh for John. Then I recently looked it up in Hebrew and it actually does have a very direct meaning, Rock. As in a piece of a rock, a stone. I kind of like that better than John, not sure why. It is finally becoming a little more common, for some odd reason it used to be rare. I like it because everybody knows how to pronounce it and is very easy to spell. Although in Germany they say Eevan (long E). Close enough.

Alistair Hosie
03-12-2017, 06:38 AM
Evan same name is also IAN, Jan or John, in Welsh it could also be Ieuan there are different ways of spelling pronounce yayan . Thanks guy you are spot on there as I said is a German or Deutsch word dinge pronounced din-geh.
Phew Some arguments I have had over many years with that one. As some people getting annoyed as it is usually called in incorrect English translation as dinje.
OK all back to bed till dinner time LOL Alistair HEh HEh Poor George is going to have a nightmare sorting out if this is political or not sorry George. lol just kidding Alistair

J Tiers
03-12-2017, 11:14 AM
My name is Mace. There is only one pronunciation to that word regardless of all the meanings it has but you should see...err...hear some people try to pronounce it.

So the one way would then be to pronounce it "mah-chay"? That's what it seems like to me.

Paul Alciatore
03-12-2017, 11:32 AM
Well if you ask me, we can't even settle on one pronunciation of words in our native languages so why should we expect one, proper way for words in others. Heck, we can't even get proper spelling.

Why worry about it?

tlfamm
03-12-2017, 11:34 AM
Perhaps our UK colleagues could help with the pronunciation of this English surname:

Featherstonhaugh

I haven't a clue where I encountered it, much less how to pronounce it.

Evan
03-12-2017, 01:27 PM
Fetherstun-haw

Jim Stewart
03-12-2017, 04:18 PM
Fanshaw.

-js

tlfamm
03-12-2017, 04:41 PM
Fanshaw.

-js

I thought maybe I remembered a British TV drama with actor Nathaniel Parker (maybe the Inspector Lynley Mysteries) in which a Lord "Fanshaw" was featured. How I learned of the spelling ("Featherstonhaugh") - maybe in the credits?


So, "Featherstonhaugh" is pronounced "Fanshaw" - guess the thrifty Brits didn't want to spew out all of those syllables?

J Tiers
03-12-2017, 04:43 PM
Or Cholmondeley.....

Hint.... think of that Las Vegas Pawn shop reality show........

I think the guide to pronunciation of stuff like that is to say it quickly with a mouth full of marbles.

Juergenwt
03-12-2017, 04:58 PM
Har-ding-eh

I second that.

Jim Stewart
03-12-2017, 05:14 PM
I thought maybe I remembered a British TV drama with actor Nathaniel Parker (maybe the Inspector Lynley Mysteries) in which a Lord "Fanshaw" was featured. How I learned of the spelling ("Featherstonhaugh") - maybe in the credits?


So, "Featherstonhaugh" is pronounced "Fanshaw" - guess the thrifty Brits didn't want to spew out all of those syllables?

I have a long-ago recollection of the Inspector Lynley mysteries, geez, maybe 25 years ago. Thirty?

OTOH, I believe I last saw the name in the "Jeeves and Wooster" series.

Oh, yeah: hello, everyone. New here, but not new - in fact, well past my "best by" date...

-js

Paul Alciatore
03-12-2017, 07:51 PM
I'm in the southern US but I would say

Feather-stone-ah

or just

Feather-stone

I would bet that if you asked 100 British citizens at random you would get 150 different pronunciations.




Perhaps our UK colleagues could help with the pronunciation of this English surname:

Featherstonhaugh

I haven't a clue where I encountered it, much less how to pronounce it.

elf
03-12-2017, 09:33 PM
Did someone change the pronunciation since last year? http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/70343-calling-Black-Forest-in-deautschland?highlight=Hardinge+German

Juergenwt
03-13-2017, 03:46 PM
I guess a lot depend on whether people are familiar with the product and the pronunciation in English. A person in Germany being familiar with the company would probably pronounce it "Har-dinj as in the US. Someone not familiar with the name or not an English speaker would read "Har-din-eh" .
When Henry Kissinger was a familiar name on the news his name was pronounced as "Kis-sin-jer" even in Germany, yet people not into politics would read it as "Kis-sing-er" as it should be.

boslab
03-13-2017, 04:57 PM
I'm thinking Blackforest is right, and I speak fluent perfect German, like a demonstration?
Ok "ein beer" followed by danke, see, perfect like I said.
You don't need the other words they are just spare ones in case ein beer is broken
( an unusual colleague in work could speak perfect German, we had visitors from Tyssen Krupp and the bos said as your German is good you can meet and greet, he did, turned out he learned German in a stalag camp as a POW, he was screaming obscenities in German for 5 mins before being dragged away, then he started shouting what you gonna do now shoot me again!, it was an interesting visit)
Mark

Baz
03-13-2017, 07:23 PM
Local rules apply. Television has spread throughout the world but each country pronounces the word their own way, following local practice. It is obvious when the words are different - we don't try to pronounce 'window' as 'fensta' just because some foreigners do because it is obviously different. When a word crosses a border, even if the spelling remains the same, it should take on the local pronunciation.

Other interesting ones are the TV adaptor maker Hauppauge who have a pronunciation guide on their website and my favourite the nutty fictional Spanish knight Don Quixote which pretentious people who first went on holiday in Spain in the sixties (exotic at the time) wanted to spanishise missing the point of the name when pronounced the English way.

Alistair Hosie
03-13-2017, 08:09 PM
It is as follows feather stone hauch in pronunciation the Hauch sound as opposed to haw which most people might think is actually from a Scottish derivation so actually is featherston hauch or hoch with the ending as ch which you would say in the word ( back )so sounds like hawk . so Featherstone hawk crudely translated in the guttural sound seriously Alistair

tlfamm
03-13-2017, 08:49 PM
Alistair, note the variations given here ("Fanshaw" being 'preferred'):

Fetherstonhaugh or Featherstonhaugh – /ˈfnʃɔː/; variants /ˈfɛstənhɔː/, /ˈfiːsənheɪ/, /ˈfɪərstənhɔː/, or as /ˈfɛərstənhɔː/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_names_in_English_with_counterintuitive_pro nunciations

Edwin Dirnbeck
03-13-2017, 09:24 PM
Ask these guyshttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170314/32a3d5cf79976cc7e1e9b3f7a6af3186.jpg


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Evan
03-13-2017, 09:41 PM
he was screaming obscenities in German for 5 mins

Which are actually usually very mild in translation. The Germans just don't know how to swear properly, at least not in High German. Platz Deutsch is a different matter.


which most people might think is actually from a Scottish derivation...

I should have remembered that. My ex mother in law is Scottish as are/were a couple of uncles. I have heard it for over 40 years. For some odd reason that is one accent I never picked up automatically although I have picked up some of the ways of saying some things in English.

h12721
03-13-2017, 09:52 PM
What is Platz Deutsch ?
HM

Evan
03-13-2017, 10:12 PM
Spoken mostly in Northern Germany, "flat or low German". It is a local dialect. Hoch Deutsch (High German) is the official language but there are various dialects, in particular East German. The Swiss also speak their own form of German with quite a few differences. It's no different than English in North america or pretty much any language in a country bigger than a few square kilometres.

It has always surprised and interested me how we humans somehow developed so many different ways to do oral communication. The Chinese have just one official written language but a thousand different dialects/languages.

The entire concept of different languages also gives some idea of just how many different groups of people there were in the distant past. There were very many different independent tribes of us humans back when the total population was far smaller. In some ways it must have been a nice time to live in. Very little disease and plenty of food for everyone.

J Tiers
03-13-2017, 11:17 PM
Alistair, note the variations given here ("Fanshaw" being 'preferred'):

Fetherstonhaugh or Featherstonhaugh – /ˈfnʃɔː/; variants /ˈfɛstənhɔː/, /ˈfiːsənheɪ/, /ˈfɪərstənhɔː/, or as /ˈfɛərstənhɔː/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_names_in_English_with_counterintuitive_pro nunciations

What language is that wikipedia link in?

I did not recognize even one single example of the pronunciation guide..... it appears intended for someone for whom Cyrillic is the preferred alphabet.

h12721
03-13-2017, 11:40 PM
Evan, it is called Platt Deutsch.( Platt Dutch) and no it has nothing to do with the Netherlands.
HM

Black Forest
03-14-2017, 01:25 AM
Back in 1989 I was invited by a German Quarter Horse farm to come to Germany and do a seminar on training horses. Fifteen minutes into the seminar the attendees stopped me told me we could dispense with the German translator because they understood my English better than his German! Unknown to me the translator was speaking in his local dialect of German and the people from anywhere but the village the translator lived in did not understand him. He was the son of the owner of the farm that sponsored the seminar. We then got someone from the group to speak Hoch Deutsch and all was well.

Evan
03-14-2017, 02:28 AM
Evan, it is called Platt Deutsch.

Quite right. I don't use my German very often these days and I often mix up my languages. Platz is "place", close but not close enough. When it comes to languages I sort of think of them as just one big language. English has about 30% cognates to German and Danish also has about 30% but they aren't the same 30%. For instance, I always think of the days of the week in German.

Deutsch is pronounced Doych.

MattiJ
03-14-2017, 02:42 AM
What language is that wikipedia link in?

I did not recognize even one single example of the pronunciation guide..... it appears intended for someone for whom Cyrillic is the preferred alphabet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet ?

Pretty common in many countries.

J Tiers
03-14-2017, 10:52 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet ?

Pretty common in many countries.

Worthless in my view. I don't need a 4th language and 3rd alphabet.

Eurocentric, like the "universal" signs that are universal only to a member of a european or euro-derived culture. Worthless to half the world.

Worse yet, an "educational" language and alphabet. "Educators" have a special jargon of their own, to perpetuate their usefulness, despite extreme over-sophistication ("sophistication" in the bad sense, not the new meaning of "goodness")

Evan
03-14-2017, 03:07 PM
"Educators" have a special jargon of their own

Boy is that ever true and it is developed very strongly in every extremely narrow specialty. It is like a competition to show who knows more about their area of work. I sure found it interesting talking to the other lab members recently. I was able to hold a conversation just about general science and that highly impressed them. That sure does not impress me though. If you look up the word "generalist" (me) you will see what is now being said about generalist versus specialist. It is looking like the generalists will end up running this entire show. The specialists are reaching a point where they know a great deal about almost nothing.

Black Forest
03-14-2017, 03:19 PM
Boy is that ever true and it is developed very strongly in every extremely narrow specialty. It is like a competition to show who knows more about their area of work. I sure found it interesting talking to the other lab members recently. I was able to hold a conversation just about general science and that highly impressed them. That sure does not impress me though. If you look up the word "generalist" (me) you will see what is now being said about generalist versus specialist. It is looking like the generalists will end up running this entire show. The specialists are reaching a point where they know a great deal about almost nothing.

The definition of a specialist, learning more and more about less and less!

stefang
03-14-2017, 04:31 PM
The Germans just don't know how to swear properly, at least not in High German.

Haha. Wrong :)

Evan
03-14-2017, 06:25 PM
What it means in German to another German is very different than the translation. I am well aware of that.

Juergenwt
03-14-2017, 09:01 PM
Platt Deutsch or "Platt Dtsch" is unique to the North sea coast, and the Baltic see coast (slightly different).
Most regions in Germany have their own dialect and it can change slightly from Village to Village staying very close within a certain region. The big differences are between the States (roughly)
in the north, east,south and west. To big a subject to handle in this forum. Thank you Martin Luther for introducing "High German".

Evan
03-14-2017, 09:43 PM
Platt Deutsch or "Platt Dtsch" is unique to the North sea coast, and the Baltic see coast (slightly different).

In particular those places close to Denmark.

Mike Burch
03-14-2017, 09:48 PM
Worthless in my view. I don't need a 4th language and 3rd alphabet.

Eurocentric, like the "universal" signs that are universal only to a member of a european or euro-derived culture. Worthless to half the world.

Sorry, can't agree. IPA is deliberately culture-neutral.
Among those who need a neutral pronunciation guide which does not attempt to transliterate foreign words into the noises customarily made by non-speakers of the word in question, the International Phonetic Association's "alphabet" is invaluable, enabling even a resolute monoglot to pronounce at sight a word in a language of whose rules he is entirely ignorant.
In a former existence as a broadcaster I had to make announcements with names of performers, composers and their works from thirty different languages, in only one of which I was fluent. Without IPA I'd have been screwed.
Consider for example the last syllable of the word which is the subject of the original post, Hardinge. In German, that last vowel is a sort of indeterminate grunt, represented in IPA by a schwa, an upside-down "e" which I can't type here. Attempts to represent it with "eh"and "uh" and the like simply can't convey the correct sound, but IPA nails it instantly.
The biggest problem in trying to get native speakers of language A correctly to pronounce language B is to stop them using A's vowel sounds to mangle B's vowels into something with which they are familiar. IPA goes a long way to overcome that habit.

Evan
03-14-2017, 10:09 PM
Yep, it is impossible to correctly give the real pronunciation by approximating with screwed up English. The sounds just aren't the same. In Danish there are three "sounds" that I can make that must be learned when you are very young or you will never learn how to say them. In particular is a "swallowed" glottal stop that I can say no problem but adults that didn't learn Danish when young never can. Knowing Danish as basically my first language makes German a lot easier.

My father met my mother in Denmark just after the war and then when I was just 1 year old she took me back to Denmark to show me off to all the relatives and stayed there for quite a while to allow my father to finish his studies without a crying baby to get in the way. I also was showing failure to thrive, undoubtedly due to my celiac disease and back in Denmark they didn't have much bread to eat right after the war. Potatoes were a major part of the diet then since the wheat fields were filled with craters and unexploded ordinance. Getting me off gluten what exactly what I needed. It also helped a lot that the Danish usually eat very thin rye bread single layer sandwiches, not double layer wheat bread. Far less gluten in thin rye bread.

In fact this was how celiac disease was discovered in Holland around the end of the war.

J Tiers
03-14-2017, 10:37 PM
Sorry, can't agree. IPA is deliberately culture-neutral.
....

Sucks to be them, I guess.

You can be as sorry as you want, but the signs are NOT CULTURE NEUTRAL.

As for the "pronunciation language" ...... Have not got time to piddle around with language #5 just to find out pronunciations in the other 4. It probably is not culturally neutral either. But it is getting closer to the goal of being equally impenetrable for all, which is presumably the way you determine that.

Stupid.

You CANNOT make things culture neutral if you belong TO a culture. And it probably is not even useful. "Culture neutral" means NOBODY understands it directly. You have to LEARN what is meant for each symbol, no matter what you come from as background.

You can SAY that this symbol means <sound> but somehow that sound must be communicated. THEN what is written can be interpreted. But you must have that sound available in order to interpret it. And, when yu see the symbol, you do not HAVE that, unless you have memorized the full list of sounds already.

There are "words" in english that english alphabet cannot be used to write. They can be represented, but that is like calling the capital of china "Peking". So the theoretical utility is there. But when I see the link as per a few posts ago, it means nothing to me, and I just dismiss it. I have no other choice.

When a person DOES come from a given background, it is impossible to separate the two. You MUST start there. If you do not, then the result is as I just related..... immediate dismissal as useless, because in fact it IS useless. The PERSON is not "culturally neutral".

I am happy you found it useful. It was useless to me, but I do not have your level of need. If you did not learn it, you were unemployed.

Better to have some folks have to learn and others know inherently? Or is it better to have NOBODY get a clue until they are taught what it means?

One way you have less educating to do.

With all the "this neutral" and "that neutral" and "such and so free", we WILL have the legislated headsets with distracting noises to make everyone equally stupid. Just like the SF story. Or make everyone learn a new "culturally neutral" official made-up language and stop using their native one.

Nope, people are different. let them BE different. Recognize it, and use that as a base. You will find many folks from foreign countries to be FAR less "culturally neutral" than I am, and it will be a revelation to you.

Mike Burch
03-15-2017, 12:20 AM
To judge by all the shouting, I must have offended you. That was (obviously) not my intention.
May I say "sorry" again?

J Tiers
03-15-2017, 12:36 AM
To judge by all the shouting, I must have offended you. That was (obviously) not my intention.
May I say "sorry" again?

NO you may not.

I am neither offended nor shouting. I'm just too lazy to use the bold and italic functions.

BTW, the assumption that I was shouting is culturally based............