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View Full Version : Should I have bought a smaller vise ?



tbsrokks05
03-16-2017, 01:31 AM
So I have this mill ,1979 go well Taiwan import . Might be a little over kill ,but I ran into an issue after a new purchase.i previously had a 3 inch milling vise and bought a 6 inch vise. With the new vise I'm losing about an inch and half of travel in the y . I'm thinking about milling off the front of the vise to give me about an inch more of travel .Does this sound like a stupid idea?anyome have any other ideas?PS it's a import vice https://image.ibb.co/g0yTmF/IMG_20170316_005314464_HDR.jpghttps://image.ibb.co/eEGsDv/IMG_2017...330604_HDR.jpg


Edit ended up cutting the vise now I have enough clearance
https://thumb.ibb.co/nBFpBF/IMG_20170317_222648161_HDR.jpg

J Tiers
03-16-2017, 01:46 AM
I'n not one to be squeamish about modifying machinery.

But, yeah. kinda.

I'd just turn the %$#@! thing 90 deg after cutting off the long studs, and go with that.

You are not getting an inch off that without messing things up. A half inch of rim, maybe.

tbsrokks05
03-16-2017, 01:56 AM
Yeah the studs are just temporary but yeah that seems to be a better idea

PStechPaul
03-16-2017, 03:14 AM
I have essentially the same mill/drill, and that vise looks a lot like the one I bought from Enco a year or so back.

http://enginuitysystems.com/pix/tools/Milling_Vise_1920.jpg

If you don't need the swivel, you can remove it and gain an inch or so.

Toolguy
03-16-2017, 09:54 AM
That vise is too big for the machine. A 4 inch would be just right. If you don't want to buy another vise, turning it 90 degrees is next best.

David Powell
03-16-2017, 10:14 AM
That vise is too big for the machine. A 4 inch would be just right. If you don't want to buy another vise, turning it 90 degrees is next best.

Some years ago I bought a similar vice to use on my Busy Bee B0 48 mill. I soon found that the lip at the back( Ie the fixed Jaw edge) got in the way of giving me the travel I needed. I tried it at 90 degrees and found it " Unnatural". After a bit of totally unnecessary worry I bandsawed the lip off, squared it up on the mill, checked to see if there was any measurable distortion, there was not any. I have been using the vice virtually every day since, and it is still fairly square and straight ,within a thous on any test. Until I saw the posting I had totally forgotten about my modification. Hope this helps David Powell.

J Tiers
03-16-2017, 10:28 AM
The rim , yeah.

Looked like an inch would cut into the jaws.

1-800miner
03-16-2017, 10:32 AM
dump the swivel and bolt the vise to the front slot.

adatesman
03-16-2017, 10:44 AM
If you clamp on the edge rather than the clamping slots you can position the vise wherever you want.

becksmachine
03-16-2017, 10:53 AM
Silly, last I looked it's not against the law to have two vises.

Pun entirely unintentional! :)

Dave

flylo
03-16-2017, 10:57 AM
Buy a bigger mill, problem solved!:o

David Powell
03-16-2017, 11:06 AM
I never cease to be amazed at how much you seem to know about items you have never seen. Maybe you could tell me the winning lottery number for this week.s 6 /49. I KNOW I chopped off about an inch of lip. There is a little of the lip left before the vice proper. I know because I went and had a look. Maybe my vice came from a different mould than the one in the photos, Regards David Powell.

J Tiers
03-16-2017, 11:20 AM
I never cease to be amazed at how much you seem to know about items you have never seen. Maybe you could tell me the winning lottery number for this week.s 6 /49. I KNOW I chopped off about an inch of lip. There is a little of the lip left before the vice proper. I know because I went and had a look. Maybe my vice came from a different mould than the one in the photos, Regards David Powell.

Hey, now..... take a chill pill.

There's a pic, so it's not like nobody can see what is meant.... it's right there.

All I said was it looked proportionally more like half an inch in what I SAW in the pic.... so I was surprised it was an inch. But if you took a full inch off, OK, you know what you cut off, I believe it.

Now, my question to you is: If the OP takes off an inch and a half, will he cut into the jaw, or not? Cuz the whole point of my comment is that it would not be a great idea to cut off part of the jaw.... especially when he can just turn the vise.

tbsrokks05
03-16-2017, 11:22 AM
Bolting the vice to the front slots would cause it not to hit but I'd still have the issue on the work envolope here . There's a little over an inch of rim on the vise before getting to the back jaws if I do decided to cut it .

tbsrokks05
03-16-2017, 11:28 AM
I would like to have a bigger mill ,the Dro on my mill is supposed to be for a Bridgeport ,using the y as the x and z as the y but anyways having a bigger mill would be too big of a wiring issue

vpt
03-16-2017, 11:42 AM
https://image.ibb.co/g0yTmF/IMG_20170316_005314464_HDR.jpg

Wiring issue? Looks like you got at least one more slot left on that power strip for a bigger mill! :D

mikem
03-16-2017, 11:44 AM
How about making an adapter plate to mount between the vise and the table? Then you could move it toward you an inch without cutting anything on the vise!

J Tiers
03-16-2017, 12:11 PM
How about making an adapter plate to mount between the vise and the table? Then you could move it toward you an inch without cutting anything on the vise!

I see it that he wants to be able to move the table as far as it will go back, so that he loses no movement. With a too-big vise, the vise hits before the table would have to stop.

Yes, the vise is too big, it overhangs. But he owns it. If he was asking "should I buy this too-large vise?", folks who have that mill could point him at a better one.

If he wants/needs to cut off some to make it fit, OK.... it's his vise, and cutting the lip, or a slice off the base, won't hurt it much if any.

AND....

I don't know if anyone else spotted it, but another poster has a pic of the vise mounted with the base angled, with a mount screw in each slot. Looks like that would move the center of the vise back about as much as could be gained by cutting off bits of vise.

Dan_the_Chemist
03-16-2017, 12:44 PM
Buy a bigger mill, problem solved!:o

"Honey, I had to buy a bigger mill. I was told to by the guys on Home Shop Machinist." :)

Yeah, that wouldn't work in my house, either.

Does the lip of the vice run into the green casting that clamps the bottom of the round column? If so, then raising the vise on blocks could cause the lip to go up and over the green casting, thus gaining some distance.

A more ambitious project would be to remove the head and column, and remove the four bolts that hold the green casting that connects the column to the base. Make a plate out of honking thick steel (1" or so) that is rectangular. Drill 8 holes in two square patterns with a 1 or 2" offset between the two patterns, counter bore 4 of them, tap 4 of them. Screw the plate onto the base using the counter sunk holes to create a new mounting place that has the 4 tapped holes set back about 1 to 2" from the current location. Then attach the green casting using 4 bolts and the tapped holes. From the side the round column will be shifted back by 1 or 2". Rebuild from there on up. If you are worried about flex you could weld or bolt a plate to the back of the mounting plate that either rests on the base or is bolted to the outside face of the base in the back using 2 drilled and tapped holes.

What I find attractive about this idea is that it doesn't permanently change any tool... If it doesn't work well the mill can be returned to as manufactured condition by removing the bolts and the mounting plate. All you've lost is time and a hunk of steel that goes into the "too good to throw away" use again bin.

BCRider
03-16-2017, 12:56 PM
If cutting off the flood coolant control gutter on the back edge will get you back your travel then go for it. Few home shop sorts use flood coolant. And certainly you don't with your setup. So you don't need the gutter around the vise. Just don't cut into the material supporting the fixed jaw. That would be a no-no.

After that if the vise still sticks out past the rear edge and you just can't live with it then consider some of the options mentioned or some other option not yet mentioned to shift the vise a little.

While you're at it some sort of better and more solid stand for the mill/drill would not be amiss either..... And maybe treat the DRO panel to a shelf of it's own? (dig-dig) :)

Dan, at first glance the extension plate for the column might seem tempting. But if he were to do that it would prevent his reaching the whole area of the table. So while it might help with the vise issue it would hamper and limit for other setups that don't use the vise.

Paul Alciatore
03-16-2017, 01:34 PM
Choices:

1. Sell it. Get a 4". Be happy.

2. Get a bigger mill.

3. Put it on a shelf for when you do get a bigger mill. And get a 4" and be happy.

I would not take anything off of it. It probably would only half solve the problem because that vise is just too big for that machine. So you still will not be happy, especially when you have a larger part and still can't get to all four sides of it.

tbsrokks05
03-16-2017, 01:44 PM
Wiring issue? Looks like you got at least one more slot left on that power strip for a bigger mill! :D

I'll be more clear ,the cost of buying a Bridgeport or clone with moving costs ,wiring a 220 line underground to a detached garage on a rented property,then buying a phase converter or vfd just isn't practical ,that's why I have this mill running on a normal household plug

tbsrokks05
03-16-2017, 01:56 PM
If cutting off the flood coolant control gutter on the back edge will get you back your travel then go for it. Few home shop sorts use flood coolant. And certainly you don't with your setup. So you don't need the gutter around the vise. Just don't cut into the material supporting the fixed jaw. That would be a no-no.

After that if the vise still sticks out past the rear edge and you just can't live with it then consider some of the options mentioned or some other option not yet mentioned to shift the vise a little.

While you're at it some sort of better and more solid stand for the mill/drill would not be amiss either..... And maybe treat the DRO panel to a shelf of it's own? (dig-dig) :)

Dan, at first glance the extension plate for the column might seem tempting. But if he were to do that it would prevent his reaching the whole area of the table. So while it might help with the vise issue it would hamper and limit for other setups that don't use the vise.

Yeah I'm in the process of welding a mill stand for it I'm surprised it didn't collapse when I put that vice on there,but rotating the vise would solve the issue of it not hitting but I'd still be limited on travel inside the vise. As for the Dro I have it mounted on a big dresser that has my lathe on it because the cords are not long enough.as for the extension plate like you said I'd still be limited when I'm not using the vice

tbsrokks05
03-16-2017, 02:03 PM
I could raise the vise about 2 inches so the vise hits the column and not the base giving me more room but I'm trying to keep as much rigidity as possible

Highpower
03-16-2017, 02:27 PM
Turn the 6 inch vise sideways and get yourself an inexpensive toolmakers vise:

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41sO%2BRuvvRL._SX342_.jpg

Then you can hold the smaller vise inside the larger vise and slide it back close to the column if need be. They work great for holding parts at add angles as well.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Highpwr/CMMG/PC120108.jpg

BCRider
03-16-2017, 02:46 PM
Another option would be to remove and store the swivel base when you do not require angles. Then the space used by the swivel base could be used for an offset mount of some form to hold the vise so that the back surface of the fixed jaw just lines up with the back edge of the table. I guess how much you gain from that would depend on how far the vise sticks out past the edge of the table after the coolant gutter is removed. If you only have something like 1/4" of protrusion it may not be worth the effort.

J Tiers
03-16-2017, 02:47 PM
I could raise the vise about 2 inches so the vise hits the column and not the base giving me more room but I'm trying to keep as much rigidity as possible

First, try moving ONE of the studs to the other slot. That gains you half the distance between slot centers, which looks like an inch or so. Maybe a little more.

tbsrokks05
03-16-2017, 03:00 PM
I think some people are confused on what I'm trying to do here.say I put a piece of material that's 5 1/2 wide in the vise and a 1/4 drill in the Chuck this is hypothetical .I'm trying to be able to to drill in as many locations as possible on that stock without being limited on travel.the travel of the table in the y is about 6 1/4 and the vise opens at 5.9

danlb
03-16-2017, 03:10 PM
The problem with the Y axis work envelope is that there is no ram on the head of this type of mill. Your work envelope is constricted by the relationship of the column and the table. You can usually move the table in just far enough to get the cutter over the front edge the table. At that point the table is touching the column. At the other extreme of travel you can crank it out far enough to get the cutter over the very back of the table.

If you use a vise with big thick fixed jaws and mount it at 90 degrees to the length of the table, then you lose that much Y travel. If that's a 6x20 table, then losing an inch and a half is a lot.

If you move the mounts to the front T slot then you lose the thickness of the fixed jaw and you lose another inch or two by moving the jaw toward the front. That's not a good solution.

If you mount the vise sideways you still have the full depth of the table available. You just won't be able to put a 1 foot long piece in it and mill both ends.

A smaller "screwless" toolmaker's vise is a good compromise for smaller work. A 3 inch model will open to almost 4 inches, yet is light enough (10 lbs) to easily move off the table to allow you to clamp larger pieces directly to the table. That's what I do on my micro mill. :) The ancient 40 lb vise on my knee mill is a pain to move on and off so I usually leave it in place, though I'm considering a 4 or 5 inch screwless vise for daily work.

BCRider
03-16-2017, 03:55 PM
I think some people are confused on what I'm trying to do here.say I put a piece of material that's 5 1/2 wide in the vise and a 1/4 drill in the Chuck this is hypothetical .I'm trying to be able to to drill in as many locations as possible on that stock without being limited on travel.the travel of the table in the y is about 6 1/4 and the vise opens at 5.9

In that case it is a little more simple. Or it may be more complex depending on what is needed and how far you want to go.

For starters lets forget about where it actually clamps up. And lets assume that you cut off the gutter on the rear. With that done run the table fully back to the column. Now slide the vise fully back on the table until it contacts the column. Maybe put a piece of card stock between just for a minimal clearance. Now measure from a centering point in the spindle to the rear jaw face. That is your maximum possible reach. At that point I'd run the table with vise back out and ensure that you can get the point in the spindle to reach the fixed jaw and confirm that you have full access to anything in the jaws that does not over hang them. You should since the travel is greater than the opening.

But now the issue is to figure out a way to mount the vise in that particular location. It is highly unlikely that it will be polite enough to do this with the slots for the clamping studs to be sitting directly over a T slot. So now you need to make a decision. Can you swivel the base to span two T slots and will that get you really close to the vise being in that position? Or do you suck it up and drill and tap for bolts to mount the vise directly? This is not as bad an idea as it seems at first glance. Or do you make up some custom strap clamps that allow you to use existing T slots in some way to hold the vise in that location and which are still low enough a profile to allow the vise to swivel?

J Tiers
03-16-2017, 04:38 PM
I think some people are confused on what I'm trying to do here.say I put a piece of material that's 5 1/2 wide in the vise and a 1/4 drill in the Chuck this is hypothetical .I'm trying to be able to to drill in as many locations as possible on that stock without being limited on travel.the travel of the table in the y is about 6 1/4 and the vise opens at 5.9

Don't think so.....

Just turn the vise, AND clamp it more centered on the table. That takes the jaw out of the equation, and probably the base as well, as the jaw is no longer between the work and the column, and the base is probably within the table outline. Can't really see how far the base extends, so you might want to trim off some of it.

As long as you insist on putting the vise how you have it, you lose the jaw thickness. Can't avoid it. That is not an issue if you turn the vise on its base to point along the table

Rich Carlstedt
03-16-2017, 04:44 PM
I have one mill with the vice turned 90 degrees and it is not a problem. gives lots of options.
Just go buy a inexpensive box wrench that ratchets either way for fast jaw movement, or use a speed wrench and socket

Rich

wdtom44
03-16-2017, 05:24 PM
I have lucked on to several different sizes of vises and while the smaller 4 or 5" fits my Rockwell mill better sometimes the larger 6" Bridgeport is needed. I wouldn't regret having the larger vise if I was you, you can use the smaller one if you want until you need the big one. And as for cutting it, why not, you probably aren't going to use the coolant drain chanel anyway. I would not use the swivel base until I need it.

boslab
03-16-2017, 06:44 PM
Over the years I have seen many lathes and mills that had been butchered with an angle grinder, I think it's somthing I couldent do, I just couldent, anyway that confession over (20 hail hardinges)
Back to the vise, yeah it's a little too manly for the old girl, get a smaller one!
Mark

Dan_the_Chemist
03-16-2017, 06:52 PM
... get yourself an inexpensive toolmakers vise:

There is such a thing??? Do you have an inexpensive toolmakers vise you can sell to me? I have been wanting one for a few years, but every time I look at the price (even eBay used) I cry a little and then go on about my day...

boslab
03-16-2017, 07:04 PM
The good ones are expensive, I had a few, they were branded, the starret 4" was over 1000, the job paid for it but I work for nothing really.
I had an interstate one I fetched home from work, that was cheap at 139
Mark

tbsrokks05
03-16-2017, 08:30 PM
I thinking I'll just cut an inch off the front with a horizontal bandsaw face it square and put away the rotating base till I need it but I'll let everyone know how it went when I get around too doing that

vpt
03-16-2017, 08:54 PM
I don't think there will be any issues cutting off that lip of the vise. If that gives you enough room go for it.

tbsrokks05
03-17-2017, 10:39 PM
Hopefully I have enough clearance now https://thumb.ibb.co/nBFpBF/IMG_20170317_222648161_HDR.jpg

Andre3127
03-18-2017, 04:28 PM
Here's the question. Do you need such a big vise? Remember the weight of the vise doesn't help with eventual way wear and just makes the hand cranks harder to turn

Sent from my XT1053 using Tapatalk

tbsrokks05
03-18-2017, 06:54 PM
Here's the question. Do you need such a big vise? Remember the weight of the vise doesn't help with eventual way wear and just makes the hand cranks harder to turn

Sent from my XT1053 using Tapatalk

Short answer yes

RB211
03-18-2017, 10:19 PM
What are you milling with that setup? Hopefully just Plastic and Balsa?

vpt
03-18-2017, 10:24 PM
I can imagine a huge vise will add some "meat" to the table which might very slightly reduce some harmonic chatter. Plus it is nice to be able to stick bigger parts in the vise. It does suck when you have a part that is just ever so slightly bigger than the vise can hold.

J Tiers
03-18-2017, 11:55 PM
.... Plus it is nice to be able to stick bigger parts in the vise. It does suck when you have a part that is just ever so slightly bigger than the vise can hold.

That's when something like this is very handy:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0803/jstanley/vise1.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/jstanley/media/vise1.jpg.html)

tbsrokks05
03-19-2017, 12:34 AM
What are you milling with that setup? Hopefully just Plastic and Balsa?haha best joke I've heard all day

tbsrokks05
03-19-2017, 01:00 AM
What are you milling with that setup? Hopefully just Plastic and Balsa?

I raised the head to show a better photo of the vise main point of this post . But as for the mill itself being a mill drill it can do alot more than cut bulsa or plastic I can cut pine too lol but seriously it can cut anything a Bridgeport can

BCRider
03-19-2017, 01:14 AM
How is it with the cutter you show in the first picture in the first post? I ask because I had a mill drill that was the next size up but not the larger "usual" size seen out there. If I'd tried to run that large a cutter with that much extension it would have been a chattering monster. But when I made up some lower extension end mill holders to get the cutting action closer to the end of the spindle it was able to take much more off per pass than I would have expected. So I can't help but think there's some gains to be made in your case as well.

RB211
03-19-2017, 02:27 AM
I raised the head to show a better photo of the vise main point of this post . But as for the mill itself being a mill drill it can do alot more than cut bulsa or plastic I can cut pine too lol but seriously it can cut anything a Bridgeport can

I haven't tested a cutter that big in my Bridgeport yet. Looks can be deceiving. Curious to see the results.

JRouche
03-19-2017, 02:59 AM
So I have this mill ,1979 go well Taiwan import .

With the new vise I'm losing about an inch and half of travel in the y . I'm thinking about milling off the front of the vise to give me about an inch more of travel .]

In the X direction, not Y right? Yes, mill off the offending pieces of the Vise plate. It will weaken the vice but not enough for your machining. Good to go. JR

tbsrokks05
03-19-2017, 01:35 PM
In the X direction, not Y right? Yes, mill off the offending pieces of the Vise plate. It will weaken the vice but not enough for your machining. Good to go. JR

Y to and from you