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Bob Ford
08-27-2017, 05:47 PM
Found a site that has Radar for all Texas.

http://www.wfaa.com/weather (link is external)

tincture500
08-27-2017, 09:28 PM
Found a site that has Radar for all Texas.

http://www.wfaa.com/weather (link is external)Yes, a termendous storm of the century, godspeed for safety of all.

Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk

HWooldridge
08-28-2017, 07:56 AM
I live in New Braunfels. We only had about 6 inches of rain and wind never topped 35 mph but it's a real mess east of here. They will be cleaning up the coast and areas around Houston for months.

Abner
08-28-2017, 08:32 AM
This reminds me of Katrina, just where are you going to house that many people? Hopefully the death toll doesn't rise. Read somewhere only 1 in 6 has flood insurance. The economic toll has to be enormous, damaged homes, vehicles, businesses and the loss of employment. I suspect many will leave and never go back.
Went through Biloxi, MS 2 yrs after hurricane Camille. Concrete steps, damaged chimney's but no house. Motels with the front and back walls blown out - looked like the TV show Hollywood Squares. Friend and I picked up some nasty infections swimming in a pool there, both required Dr. medical attention.
Forecast sounds terrible. :(

CCWKen
08-28-2017, 01:08 PM
I'm about 25 miles SW of San Antonio and we've had less than 3/4" of rain for the entire event. San Antonio has had more rain but we've been blessed by being just outside the rain band's limit. It's still cloudy here but we didn't have any rain yesterday and none so far today. The poor folks on the east side of the eye or low pressure center are really getting hammered. The Weather Channel has been full of reports of citizens taking their private boats out to rescue people. The mayor and LEO chiefs have finally asked that anyone with a boat to help where you can. It's not over yet. Rain is expected to continue the rest of the week for SE Texas and Louisiana. Sad days ahead for many.

In the months to come and you're thinking of buying a used car, make sure it didn't come from this event. The Houston police chief said there's already over a million cars affected by the floods and that's just Houston. They've even set up a special website to locate towed/recovered cars. I bet you'll see used car prices and building supplies going up nation wide. Supply and demand! There could be an immediate demand for 2-3 million vehicles in the region. As well as housing for an equal amount of people.

garyhlucas
08-28-2017, 09:35 PM
My boss called me on Sunday. Someone reached out to him to possibly supply potable water filtration equipment for FEMA. What is interesting is we build wastewater treatment plants that generate near drinking water quality effluent from sewage. However the membrane technology we employ is the same as for drinking water filtration which I have done. The neat part is that our equipment used to produce drinking water from polluted well or river water would actually work far better than a clean water plant because we already have the equipment in place to suck up water from any source and keep all the big stuff out while filtering all the way down to 0.03 microns. No bacteria and virtually no viruses. A little UV redundant disinfection and a pinch of chlorine so it remains safe and you have 10,000 gallons a day of drinking water for as long as you need it. The system runs on single phase power using less than 5 Kw so a small generator can easily run it.

Don't know if we'll actually be asked to deliver but it would be interesting and maybe help a lot of people.

TGTool
08-28-2017, 10:47 PM
If you are seeing good deals on used machines, you might also check that gearboxes are running on oil, not water. Check the electronics boxes for high water marks and minnows.

aostling
08-28-2017, 11:42 PM
... No bacteria and virtually no viruses. A little UV redundant disinfection and a pinch of chlorine so it remains safe and you have 10,000 gallons a day of drinking water for as long as you need it. The system runs on single phase power using less than 5 Kw so a small generator can easily run it.


This article describes the health hazards of Vibrio, a nasty organism which thrives along the Gulf Coast: https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/hurricane-harvey/hurricane-harvey-may-leave-behind-health-hazards-water-n796791. The technology you describe would be able to filter that out, preventing a lot of misery.

JoeLee
08-29-2017, 08:40 AM
I know this is probably scifi stuff but.................
You would think by now NASA or some one would have developed a way to break up and disperse a storm like this while it was developing out at sea before it reaches land.
Like a huge concussion bomb detonated in the eye of the storm.
OK, we'll now return to normal programming.

JL................

CCWKen
08-29-2017, 09:00 AM
It would probably take 100 or more nuclear bombs to disperse a storm like Harvey. The risk, besides nuclear fall out, is that the heat generated would make it worse. It might be more effective to drop millions of tons of dry-ice pellets to cool it down. Even then, the problem is getting the pellets to stay at the surface. Warm water is necessary to generate hurricanes. There's plenty of that in the Gulf. Before the storm, the surf temperature was 87* at Corpus Christi.

Abner
08-29-2017, 09:04 AM
Small business computers. Having lost access to my hard drive on my business machine running QB twice( I now keep that machine off the internet - no problems over 10 yrs+). It is a pain if your back up is 1 month old assuming you have access to your paper copies. How much soggy paper?
How much can you realistically load up in advance? Cash registers, phone systems, credit card machines, any sort of restaurant equipment, ovens, ranges, microwaves. Those big Hobart mixers used in pizza joints cost several thousand. Sanitizing what is salvageable, wow.:( Add unemployment to the destruction, this is a bad, bad situation.

Edit update: NWS is reporting rain falling at 2" an hour right now. 6:40 AM PST.

Dam's - One at 2" the other 3.5" from over flowing. Oh man, this is bad.

JoeLee
08-29-2017, 04:44 PM
It would probably take 100 or more nuclear bombs to disperse a storm like Harvey. The risk, besides nuclear fall out, is that the heat generated would make it worse. It might be more effective to drop millions of tons of dry-ice pellets to cool it down. Even then, the problem is getting the pellets to stay at the surface. Warm water is necessary to generate hurricanes. There's plenty of that in the Gulf. Before the storm, the surf temperature was 87* at Corpus Christi. I remember seeing something on maybe Discover channel where scientists cold make it rain by dropping some kind of crystals in the clouds from above. Hopefully not far off in the future they will be able to control these storms.

JL...............

RichR
08-29-2017, 04:52 PM
I remember seeing something on maybe Discover channel where scientists cold make it rain by dropping some kind of crystals in the clouds from above. Hopefully not far off in the future they will be able to control these storms.

JL...............

It's called cloud seeding. I think it's done with something like silver iodide.

J Tiers
08-29-2017, 06:30 PM
Been around for decades, not done much, if at all.

Storms contain so much energy that you have to somehow dissipate, that it is almost surely impractical to really stop one once it gets going. That energy has to GO somewhere.

lynnl
08-29-2017, 06:32 PM
Yeah, they were doing some cloud seeding in the Black Hills, in the vicinity of Rapid City, SD just prior to the big flash flood there in 1972.
http://www.blackhillsknowledgenetwork.org/issue-hub/black-hills-flood-of-1972.html#.WaXrPVGQx2E

Of course no cause and effect could be established, and the weather service said "no way Jose'." But I always wondered.

When you start tinkering around with nature you may well invoke those unintended consequences.

PStechPaul
08-29-2017, 06:45 PM
Imagine flying windmill-generator kites in a hurricane with tethers to suck the energy down to earth and into the grid. Such technology exists, and it might be possible to deploy in a tropical depression or storm, if not in a hurricane. How much energy is contained in a storm such as Harvey?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airborne_wind_turbine

The following shows that the rainfall from a hurricane is equivalent to:

5.2 x 1019 Joules/day or 6.0 x 1014 Watts. (600,000 GW)

And the kinetic energy in the wind is:

1.3 x 1017 Joules/day or 1.5 x 1012Watts. (1500 GW)

http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/tcfaq/D7.html

J Tiers
08-29-2017, 07:07 PM
The turbines have to

1) stay in place, more-or-less

2) absorb some reasonable percentage of the total energy

3) SEND it somewhere once it is absorbed

4) to do that the turbines have to be big, they have to work over a VERY wide range of wind speeds, etc. Wind energy is the cube of speed. A turbine that takes in 2 MW at a 30 mph wind speed, has to take on 16 MW at 60 mph, and 128 MW at 120 mph.....

All 4 of those demands are hard to do.

And, the energy contained in the rain potential is not affected directly by winds, although it may be indirectly affected.

PStechPaul
08-29-2017, 07:46 PM
Yes, it would be quite a challenge. But that's what engineers live for!

If the rainfall could be channeled into hydraulic turbines to make power, perhaps it could be used to pump flood waters uphill into dams for energy storage.

The energy for storms ultimately comes from the sun, so I did a rough calculation for a storm 16 miles wide and insolation of 1 kW/m^2. That's an area of 200 square miles or 517917622 square meters, which would be 518 GW. Of course, the energy builds up over weeks and months over a much larger area of water, and the transfer from the water to the storm takes many days. But it is fascinating to ponder the energy stored in such storms, and the power that is exerted as it is transferred from the wind to the ground in a matter of hours.

The energy in the largest nuclear device detonated by the US was 63,000 TJ, or 17.5 TW-h. The largest for Russia was 4 times that!

https://hypertextbook.com/facts/2000/MuhammadKaleem.shtml

CCWKen
08-29-2017, 07:48 PM
...Having lost access to my hard drive on my business machine running QB twice( I now keep that machine off the internet - no problems over 10 yrs+). It is a pain if your back up is 1 month old assuming you have access to your paper copies. ...
I did my QB entries in batch mode so it wasn't updated every day. After I was finished I did a backup and ran a copy of the files out to one of three thumb drives. If I had a crash or some other problem during entry, I only had to reenter what I was working on that day. I never waited a month to do backup.

If you're updating throughout the day and track inventory, time, costs, etc, I would be running back ups no less than at the end of the day. !!!

Joel
08-29-2017, 10:56 PM
And still it rains. Some areas have exceeded 50" and are set to break the US single storm rainfall record.

Paul Alciatore lives east of Houston in Beaumont. They were expecting 10" and have gotten 30" so far - 16" in the last 24 hours and it is still coming down. Hope his new shop isn't under water.

Abner
08-30-2017, 07:10 AM
I did my QB entries in batch mode so it wasn't updated every day. After I was finished I did a backup and ran a copy of the files out to one of three thumb drives. If I had a crash or some other problem during entry, I only had to reenter what I was working on that day. I never waited a month to do backup.

If you're updating throughout the day and track inventory, time, costs, etc, I would be running back ups no less than at the end of the day. !!!

We are close to what you describe today. Lumping office work to one day a week and backing up. Loosing my hard drive was a painful lesson about back ups. Had an acquaintance who suffered a fire, had back ups but no off site storage. In his words he "got schooled" on back ups.

Abner
08-30-2017, 07:17 AM
Does moisture content of the air effect the force transmitted against buildings?

Never mind, found it. Dry air is heavier.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/nature/climate-weather/atmospheric/is-humid-air-heavier-than-dry-air.htm

CCWKen
08-30-2017, 08:34 AM
For Texas:

The state song is "Texas, Our Texas" by William J. Marsh and Gladys Yoakum Wright. The lyrics are:


Texas, our Texas! All hail the mighty State!
Texas, our Texas! So wonderful so great!
Boldest and grandest, Withstanding ev'ry test;
O Empire wide and glorious, You stand supremely blest.


[Refrain] God bless you Texas! And keep you brave and strong,
That you may grow in power and worth, Thro'out the ages long.

Texas, O Texas! Your freeborn single star,
Sends out its radiance to nations near and far.
Emblem of freedom! It sets our hearts aglow,
With thoughts of San Jacinto and glorious Alamo.

[Refrain]

Texas, dear Texas! From tyrant grip now free,
Shines forth in splendor your star of destiny!
Mother of heroes! We come your children true,
Proclaiming our allegiance, our faith, our love for you.

[Refrain]

SteveF
08-31-2017, 09:03 AM
Yes, it would be quite a challenge. But that's what engineers live for!



Engineers have already solved the problem.

You put up perimeter wall forms at least 500 year flood plain plus 2 feet high, 12" apart, insert rebar, pour in concrete. Then build the house on top of that. You require that no material that could be damaged by wate immersion be placed in that space.

From the pictures I've seen on the news that would have prevented the vast majority of the damage done by this storm instead of massive problems and billions in damage.

Why we continue to allow wood frame construction in floodplains and along the Atlantic coast beaches will forever remain a mystery to me.

Steve

J Tiers
08-31-2017, 09:09 AM
Simple.

Insurance for houses etc there costs 1/3 the house price including contents per year.

Problem solved.

HWooldridge
08-31-2017, 10:57 AM
Engineers have already solved the problem.

You put up perimeter wall forms at least 500 year flood plain plus 2 feet high, 12" apart, insert rebar, pour in concrete. Then build the house on top of that. You require that no material that could be damaged by wate immersion be placed in that space.

From the pictures I've seen on the news that would have prevented the vast majority of the damage done by this storm instead of massive problems and billions in damage.

Why we continue to allow wood frame construction in floodplains and along the Atlantic coast beaches will forever remain a mystery to me.

Steve

I don't think anyone expected 50" of rain...but your point is valid. Regular floods are one of the reasons they build houses on stilts along the bayous in Louisiana.

And locally, we had two "500 year" rain events four years apart - the flood of 1998 and 2002. First one was around 26" over about 36 hours and the second was around 32" in the same approximate time period. After that, they started using the term "1000 year rain event"...

SteveF
08-31-2017, 01:00 PM
Simple.

Insurance for houses etc there costs 1/3 the house price including contents per year.

Problem solved.

We tried to do that here. North Carolina got hit by a big hurricane in 1996 and two in 1999. The insurance industry decided it needed to greatly increase rates for property owners within 50 miles of the coast. The Speaker of the House was from the coast and got a law passed preventing "discrimination" against those folks. So all of us in NC subsidize the property insurance of those on the coast.

Steve

J Tiers
08-31-2017, 01:53 PM
I Understand that Houston is knwn to flood, and that virtually nothing has been done to effectively mitigate flooding in nearly 100 years.

There is only so much you can do when the place is at sea level, and you get a uniform 50" of rain, but still......* There ARE things that can be done to handle more reasonable situations.


We tried to do that here. North Carolina got hit by a big hurricane in 1996 and two in 1999. The insurance industry decided it needed to greatly increase rates for property owners within 50 miles of the coast. The Speaker of the House was from the coast and got a law passed preventing "discrimination" against those folks. So all of us in NC subsidize the property insurance of those on the coast.

Steve

That WAS rather broad-brush.

Better to look at the height above flood level to assess the risk of flooding. And the type of construction for wind damage, etc, a house up on pilings does NOT have the flood risk of a house at grade in a low spot. They issue insurance as specific policies, they can afford to look at those factors.

I was thinking about the houses right on the beach. Or those in regular flood zones.

Insurance is supposed to be about individual risk, not just categories.

* As for stupid amounts of rain..... We are located about 75 feet above the local drainage ditch. Almost on top of a hill, with a good slope off from us. But with 30 to 50 inches of rain in a short time, I would expect some issues here as well. Water in basement, etc. Possibly sewer backup, etc. We might need to install a backwater valve, despite our location, if that much water is expected.

In a flat area, there is no slope to remove the water, so it is going to "pile up" and that's a bout the size of it, unless you can send it into lower catch basins that you excavate. And for 50" you need an awful lot of catch basin volume, you will never have enough for that..

But in the center of the US, we are much less likely to get that. Most I have heard of is 7 to 10" in a few hours a bit South of us. There probably is no source of that much water other than hurricanes blowing North out of the Gulf, and they drop most of it on the way up.

Despite good drainage, 7" in a short time is going to cause trouble here. It already did with Ike a few years ago. 50" would be a big problem despite all the drainage, rivers, etc etc. If you are going to get that, there are a lot of places you just should not build in.

lugnut
08-31-2017, 03:13 PM
It’s sad to see so many people in trouble from a situation like what Harvey has caused in Texas. I would hope those effected are made safe and well.
This should be a wakeup call to everyone to prepare themselves for disasters like this. In this case only a very small portion of the country was in the danger area. What would the people do if a very large area was involved with a storm or other type of trouble? I’m sure only a very, very tiny percentage of the US population could fend for themselves beyond a couple of days without all the services we have come to depend on.

Abner
08-31-2017, 04:03 PM
It’s sad to see so many people in trouble from a situation like what Harvey has caused in Texas. I would hope those effected are made safe and well.
This should be a wakeup call to everyone to prepare themselves for disasters like this. In this case only a very small portion of the country was in the danger area. What would the people do if a very large area was involved with a storm or other type of trouble? I’m sure only a very, very tiny percentage of the US population could fend for themselves beyond a couple of days without all the services we have come to depend on.

Well, I have been thinking what will happen when we get our subduction zone earthquake. And you are on the coast. Not that I want/wish anything close to the Texas flood on anyone but it did occur to me with flood water you can get around in a boat, in a big subduction zone quake that will not be an option.
We know we can/will get hit no different than anyone else in the hurricane areas.

I started to carry a 'go bag' when I leave the house. IF I'm not injured I figure the farthest I would need to walk is 100 miles in the usual course of my journeys, so 5-6 days if I'm lucky. I should get a folding bike, or a skate board. Also a water purifier. Bolted my shop wood stove to the floor, made a locking mechanism for the door, the vision of it hopping around the floor dumping burning wood everywhere was motivation enough.

HWooldridge
08-31-2017, 04:49 PM
I started to carry a 'go bag' when I leave the house. IF I'm not injured I figure the farthest I would need to walk is 100 miles in the usual course of my journeys, so 5-6 days if I'm lucky. I should get a folding bike, or a skate board. Also a water purifier. Bolted my shop wood stove to the floor, made a locking mechanism for the door, the vision of it hopping around the floor dumping burning wood everywhere was motivation enough.

"Bug-out bag" - can contain cash, couple bottles of water, K-rations, some kind of fire starter, spare set of eyeglasses, toothbrush, flashlight, a knife, some paracord, maybe a .22 pistol and a box of ammo - the choices are almost endless. I leave mine packed and hanging in the closet.

Major diameter
08-31-2017, 05:44 PM
We tried to do that here. North Carolina got hit by a big hurricane in 1996 and two in 1999. The insurance industry decided it needed to greatly increase rates for property owners within 50 miles of the coast. The Speaker of the House was from the coast and got a law passed preventing "discrimination" against those folks. So all of us in NC subsidize the property insurance of those on the coast.

Steve

And we will all be paying higher Ins. prices for years to come because of Harvey.

Major diameter
08-31-2017, 05:51 PM
It is funny how no one is "confiscating " guns in Texas, as they did in New Orleans during Katrina.

Let's hope they learned they're lesson, In my state they passed laws against doing just that.

DR
08-31-2017, 11:05 PM
From media reports it seems a good deal of the losses in Houston are the owners own doing.

Recently there's been a substantial number of home owners no longer carrying flood insurance. This morning one report was of a nursing home where the residents were waist deep in water. It was built in a flood plane.

Then we've got Paul Ryan talking about taking a billion out of FEMA's disaster fund to build the border wall. Great timing Paul.

Coincidently, Trump signed an executive order in the last week that, as things stand now, will allow billion$ of FEMA money to be used to rebuild in flood plains. We gotta get rid of all those regulations that hamper growth and job creation.....huh?

No doubt the oil companies will claim they need to jack gas and oil prices. And, of course, the cost of building materials will sky rocket as they did after Katrina. The infrastructure rebuilding countrywide will be stalled because all the trades people will be in Houston raking in big bucks.

In short, we're all going to get screwed by this storm.

Doc Nickel
08-31-2017, 11:23 PM
Coincidently, Trump signed an executive order in the last week that, as things stand now, will allow billion$ of FEMA money to be used to rebuild in flood plains. We gotta get rid of all those regulations that hamper growth and job creation.....huh?

-Nice conflating of two entirely unrelated subjects.


No doubt the oil companies will claim they need to jack gas and oil prices.

-Damn those people for having to rebuild damaged refineries and pipelines! We should nationalize them! After all, that worked out so well for Venezuela!


And, of course, the cost of building materials will sky rocket as they did after Katrina. The infrastructure rebuilding countrywide will be stalled because all the trades people will be in Houston raking in big bucks.

-Since this is the second such incongruity, you appear unfamiliar with the concept of "supply and demand". Would you like me to Google that for you?

And as an aside, how, might I ask, might we better serve the situation? Arrest everyone that raises their prices? Force store owners to sell only at pre-storm prices despite the fact they'll have to then re-stock by buying materials that will suddenly cost more than they sold the stuff for? Or perhaps we should simply nationalize everyone- you know, from everyone according to their ability, from everyone according to their need? I seem to recall that didn't work out very well the last forty or fifty times it's been tried, but that's almost certainly simply because we didn't have you in charge. :D


In short, we're all going to get screwed by this storm.

-And there's the mentality that's undermining the country right there: "How is this going to affect ME?"

Hundreds of thousands displaced, dozens dead, billions in damages, millions of people facing years to rebuild- if they even can- and there you are complaining that your gas prices might go up by ten or fifteen cents, or plywood might cost an extra dollar a sheet.

Doc.

Major diameter
09-01-2017, 03:30 AM
Well said Doc

DR
09-01-2017, 07:53 AM
Wow...!!!!!!

"-And there's the mentality that's undermining the country right there: "How is this going to affect ME?"

The nation's 4th largest city is devastated to the tune of 200 billion (media estimate) and my concern how this is going to affect me (and you too) is undermining the country???

Seems like I have every right and duty to be concerned how it'll affect me and the rest of the country. It's not as if climate scientists and engineers haven't been concerned and warning about Houston/s potential for catastrophic flooding for years.

Abner
09-01-2017, 08:28 AM
Recently there's been a substantial number of home owners no longer carrying flood insurance.

If it's anything like earthquake insurance for us the premiums and coverage were out of sight. Something like 20K a year and they wouldn't cover the first 50%.
After a few years of that I could buy a new house.
[QUOTE=DR;1133088

In short, we're all going to get screwed by this storm.[/QUOTE]

Less screwed than the people directly effected, and yes storms do create shortages and price increases, I hope this isn't news. We have roads that were abandoned after the flood of 96'. Building codes here are getting people who rebuild either above flood depth or out of flood zones completely so this doesn't become a repeat of stupid.

mattthemuppet
09-01-2017, 11:29 AM
not a pinch on what people in Houston are suffering, but San Antonio went through a city wide panic buying of petrol yesterday. Some rumour went out that stations were running out of petrol and suddenly every station had lines 20, 30, 40+ cars long. I was glad I was on my bike. Seemed to have calmed down some this morning, although the prices are still 30% or so higher than before the storm.

I'm with Abner - I hope that this manmade catastrophe starts people thinking about where and how they should be building. Obviously you don't want regs so restrictive that nothing gets built and house prices are unaffordable (hi Portland, Or), but not building on flood plains or concreting over wide swathes of wet lands/ low lying drainage areas would be a good idea. No building regs sounds like a great idea, but someone's going to end up paying for it and it's usually the poor saps that live there long after the developers have packed up and moved on. Providing billions of federal money to rebuild in the same spots (hi Hurricane Sandy!) seems like the definition of stupid - doing something the same way twice and expecting a different outcome.

SteveF
09-01-2017, 12:20 PM
...........

Better to look at the height above flood level to assess the risk of flooding. And the type of construction for wind damage, etc, a house up on pilings does NOT have the flood risk of a house at grade in a low spot. They issue insurance as specific policies, they can afford to look at those factors.

I was thinking about the houses right on the beach. Or those in regular flood zones.

..............

Personally I think this guy deserves an award for planning ahead and building the way it should be required to be done by law.

http://www.cement.org/docs/default-source/newsroom-pdfs/katrina-d6.pdf?sfvrsn=2

Steve

J Tiers
09-01-2017, 01:54 PM
-Nice conflating of two entirely unrelated subjects.

....

Not at all. The "regulations" about building in flood plains limit your personal freedom to live where you please and send the bill to the rest of us... the way those folks want it to be. Tightly related, to most people.

Nationalize? Talk about straw man arguments... and unrelated ideas.... Sheesh.

Hardly a "me first" thought to note that prices everywhere will go up.... AND it's worth noting that one REASON they will go up, is the personal choice of many to live where they will regularly have this happen and need to be "bailed out", and rebuillt, USING YOUR MONEY to rebuild where it will happen again, on YOUR dime, as well as driving up costs.

No problem with folks in a disaster rebuilding, but it would be better if they learned and did not rebuild the same way in the same place and keep costing US money for THEIR choices.

And, with all this "personal responsibility" stuff being touted, what about them rebuilding on their OWN dime 100%, this time, next time, and so on? Seems THAT is taking personal responsibility, and relying on FEMA is not. A LOT of folks seem to be "gaming the system" with FEMA.

FEMA serves a purpose, but when folks rely on gaming the system then everyone loses out, especially people who have legitimate unforseen disasters.

Just WHO is being "ME FIRST"?

The folks who build and rebuild and re-re-build in places where it will cost everyone else money? Or the folks who notice the selfishness of financing YOUR choices on OUR dime?

It's a disaster, a tragedy, and it was also to a reasonable extent avoidable. It's not as if it is a surprise that the area floods. That's been known for a couple centuries. This just flooded much more than usually floods. There are folks who have been flooded out multiple times, and still were living in the same place this time. Some of them who have shops have been mentioned elsewhere on forums, so that's not an internet legend.

The area down the hill from me floods regularly. Rather than keep paying and paying, the city here co-operated with the Feds to buy out the residents and get rid of the houses. Cheaper in the long run. That's WAY more sensible.

Black Forest
09-01-2017, 02:27 PM
The only people I feel really sorry for are the children. They are there by no bad judgement of their own. I feel/felt the same way about Katrina. The people that make the choice to live in areas known for natural disasters should not be looking to others to bail them out.

Joel
09-01-2017, 02:40 PM
New Orleans is below sea level - it is crazy for lots of people to live in such a circumstance, in my opinion. Houston OTOH is 80' above sea level so not quite the same. Many of the areas got about 50" of rain and that is a very unusual/difficult and not particularly expected situation.

softtail
09-01-2017, 03:01 PM
I should get a folding bike, or a skate board.

Folding scooter in conjunction with good shoes and fitness. If the pooh ever really hits the fan, the less attention one draws to one's self the better. I get a chuckle out of the these bug out loons and their big fancy trucks.. they'll be the first to get jacked for all their gear in spite of any delusions they have about being a one man army.

Doc Nickel
09-01-2017, 03:03 PM
I'm with Abner - I hope that this manmade catastrophe starts people thinking about where and how they should be building. Obviously you don't want regs so restrictive that nothing gets built and house prices are unaffordable[...]

-In many cases, you can't have both.


Personally I think this guy deserves an award for planning ahead and building the way it should be required to be done by law.

-As long as people don't mind paying $750,000 for a $200,000 house.


The nation's 4th largest city is devastated to the tune of 200 billion (media estimate) and my concern how this is going to affect me (and you too) is undermining the country?

-It's not just this one instance. Your original statement was basically complaining about a possible rise in gasoline prices and lumber/rebuilding materials prices- both of which, from recent history with Katrina, will be relatively minor- and the fact that thousands will likely flock to Houston to rebuild, leaving a deficit of trained personnel elsewhere.

You defined this minor disruption as "we're all screwed".

My (admittedly sarcastic) reply attempted to point out several things: One, it's not like we haven't see fuel price spikes before. It wasn't that long ago we were paying $5 a gallon, not due to any disaster, but thanks to the policies of a previous administration. Two, it's not like we haven't seen variable lumber prices before either, and third, it's not like this is the first time in our history that craftsmen have flocked to the scene to help build or rebuild.

We weathered those "screwings" quite well, thank you.

The "undermining the country" part comes from the same mindset that has been argued on this very board many times before- essentially, a sense of selfishness. Kids that don't want to go into a "dirty" trade, they'd rather sit at home and play video games. Employees that won't stop using their cell to text or watch movies while at work. People that would rather not work at all, than work at a job that doesn't pay them what they think they should be earning.

People that say "oh god, the gas prices are gonna go up a nickel! We're screwed!"


Not at all. The "regulations" about building in flood plains limit your personal freedom to live where you please and send the bill to the rest of us...

-One, I'm pretty sure the "bill" will be paid largely by insurers, and two, I don't recall Trump talking about loosening building code regulations.


Nationalize? Talk about straw man arguments... and unrelated ideas....

-Um, yes, exactly. That was quite obviously a form of communication known as sarcasm. :D

But, sarcastic or not, the point stands: Do we limit, at a Federal level, the ability of a company or industry to set prices for it's own goods and services? What if the Feds decide that no machine shop can charge more than $20 an hour for machinework? What if you worked in a big machine shop, that was so busy it was already behind on deliveries, and somebody came in with an emergency, rush repair. Your normal shop time is $100 an hour, so you tell him yeah, we can do it but that'll be $200 an hour? Except no, you can't do that anymore, the Feds set the price now.

Oil and gas prices are the same thing- there's been some damage to the refineries, deliveries have been disrupted, there's localized shortages. Supply and demand, which is, like it to not, how the United States works, says the price is gonna go up in those conditions.


AND it's worth noting that one REASON they will go up, is the personal choice of many to live where they will regularly have this happen and need to be "bailed out", and rebuillt, USING YOUR MONEY to rebuild where it will happen again, on YOUR dime, as well as driving up costs.

-Odd, nobody seemed all that concerned about those people living in below-sea-level New Orleans, or so-near-sea-level-it-got-swamped-by-a-storm-surge Manhattan, or regularly-nailed-by-hurricanes Florida, or frequent-earthquake-prone, arid-desert southern California, all of which have been built or rebuilt using Federal money at one time or another.

Anchorage, Alaska, far removed from any hurricane or tornado alley, and of a high enough elevation it is unlikely it'll ever flood, once required Federal intervention after the 1964 earthquake. Another earthquake could happen at any time, doing even more devastation today. Are you suggesting we abandon Anchorage and move everyone elsewhere?

And that's not a straw man- you're essentially suggesting we abandon Houston- as you note, one of the largest cities in the US- and move everyone elsewhere. It was founded something like 170 years ago- should we have had the government tell everyone no more, stop building, the city is full, at some "manageable" number like half a million people?


No problem with folks in a disaster rebuilding, but it would be better if they learned and did not rebuild the same way in the same place and keep costing US money for THEIR choices.

-Like it does with health insurance, auto insurance, homeowner's insurance, small business insurance...

[And, with all this "personal responsibility" stuff being touted, what about them rebuilding on their OWN dime 100%, this time, next time, and so on?[/quote]

-It's my understanding that quite a few people did just that, with flood insurance in the area being astronomically high (go figure) so they went without insurance at all. Yes, some people will get Fed money to rebuild, but not all, and few will get the money to replace lost momentoes and personal possessions.

Over on the PM boards, regular contributor John Oder narrowly avoided catastrophe thanks to his house being on a slight rise. But even if he had homeowner's insurance and lost everything, he owns something like a dozen antique lathes, and certainly tens of thousands in tooling. No FEMA check would pay for any of that.

So yes, those people very much made the decision to live there, and are paying the price. We'll pay some of that price too.

Doc.

Seems like I have every right and duty to be concerned how it'll affect me and the rest of the country. It's not as if climate scientists and engineers haven't been concerned and warning about Houston/s potential for catastrophic flooding for years.[/QUOTE]

Abner
09-01-2017, 03:26 PM
Folding scooter in conjunction with good shoes and fitness. If the pooh ever really hits the fan, the less attention one draws to one's self the better. I get a chuckle out of the these bug out loons and their big fancy trucks.. they'll be the first to get jacked for all their gear in spite of any delusions they have about being a one man army.

Yup! Doomer truck porno. Won't be long before he is stuck in traffic and "Hey, he has all the supplies we need".
Read a good article on Argentina after their currency collapse. The macho guys with rifles over their shoulders usually died first. I agree that you do not want to stand out. Being prepared well in advance is the only option if you think it through, but the mass of humanity will act surprised and angry that they were not warned. I watched the aftermath of Katrina on TV, when people have nothing to lose - they lose it.
In my opinion I will have 1 maybe 2 days where cash will help. Once people wake up to the value of physical supplies it will be something else completely.

I just need to get back home, and barring injuries I can walk the distance. A folding bike would be useful and faster, a skate board less so, but probably super cheap at Goodwill. I'm old enough where I know the value of good footwear, I could not agree more.

mattthemuppet
09-01-2017, 04:08 PM
-In many cases, you can't have both.

that's a very binary way of looking at it. Many places and countries have managed to strike a balance between a free-for-all and overly constrictive regulation. However, the moral hazard of providing federal funds to rebuild houses in the exact same spot where they've been destroyed by a natural disaster and in the exact same way they were built before just means this is only going to happen again and again. If you're happy to have your federal taxes pay for rebuilding on flood plains, sand bars and other disaster prone areas then I'm happy for you, but it's a struggle for me to see how that squares with demands for more limited government and lower taxes being heard around the country.

Joel
09-01-2017, 04:39 PM
I watched the aftermath of Katrina on TV, when people have nothing to lose - they lose it.

Yet, essentially none of the nasty stuff has occurred in Texas. Few if any reports of anger or violence, looting or any real problems of that nature like we saw right after Katrina. Color me impressed. The massive outpouring of personal assistance, made almost exclusively by regular folks with any useful capability to share, was immediate, self organized and logically carried out. No one just sat there and waited for someone else to take care of things. Most everybody it seems, quickly sprang into action and simply did the right thing.

The difference between the two events is remarkable.

Doc Nickel
09-01-2017, 05:07 PM
If you're happy to have your federal taxes pay for rebuilding on flood plains, sand bars and other disaster prone areas then I'm happy for you, but it's a struggle for me to see how that squares with demands for more limited government and lower taxes being heard around the country.

-Actually, that was precisely my point with the first line of my first reply.

Those who, to put it charitably, basically want the government involved in and regulating everything, very frequently- and almost certainly intentionally- misrepresent the "small government" crowd as wanting no government at all.

Which is, of course, not true.

The two conflated topics I was referring to was the recent call, after an eight-year administration that added a record number of new regulations, to scale back some of the more onerous ones, to help businesses succeed. And then the claim that disaster-recovery efforts are somehow contrary to that call.

Even the most extreme-end small government type allows there is, indeed and of course, a need for some government- fire departments, police, military, roads, certain regulations, immigration control, etc.

Yes, we- I'm very much a small government proponent- like our roads and enjoy the protection of our local police, etc. And catastrophic-event coverage, after a flood or earthquake, is right in that same purview.

I'm happy to pay my taxes to keep the roads in good shape, to keep the fire department well supplied, and to have services I can fall back on if I'm displaced by fire, flood or other calamity.

I'm NOT so happy to pay taxes that go to making sure the 0.001% of people out there that have taken it upon themselves to surgically rearrange their gender, have an adequate bathroom specifically for themselves to that they may feel 'safe' in there. Or paying to force a privately owned business to produce a product in contravention to their religious beliefs.

Or to help finance a billion dollars in cash money airlifted in the dead of night to a terrorist-sponsoring foreign power. Or to aid corrupt Secretaries of State in skimming tens of millions in kickbacks.

Doc.

tlfamm
09-01-2017, 05:57 PM
Shifting to a different aspect of Harvey, I received this email from Maumee Supply of Ohio, supplier of PVC pipe and fittings:


"You may have heard of the various chemical plant explosions in and around Texas and Lousiana due to Hurricane Harvey and flooding knocking out the power which keeps the volatile chemicals cool. Due to the abundance of oil and natural gas, this area is a large producer of chemicals for various manufacturing processes - many of them being the feedstocks necessary to make PVC pellets, used to produce PVC pipe and fittings.

In the last 2 days we have seen two price increases on PVC pipe, totaling nearly a 30% jump! Manufacturers are putting us on allocation, only allowing us to order 1/24 of what we had ordered last year at a time, and are no longer honoring any quotes. Although we have not received increases on PVC Fittings, CPVC Pipe and Fittings, or Glues and Primers, we anticipate price increases and possible allocation on those as well.

PLEASE BE ADVISED All PVC pipe will be priced when shipped.

We don't know what the future for the PVC market looks like, but it's a rough and rocky one for the foreseeable short term future.

We aim to keep you up to speed with info as we hear more."

J Tiers
09-01-2017, 06:00 PM
It's OBVIOUSLY not about abandoning areas. but CHOOSING the area WITHIN the area.

People NEAR John Oder are flooded. Some flood every few years, and yet they stay. It costs money to save and house them when it floods, even if they never get any FEMA money for rebuilding.

There are low areas, and higher ones. If it floods regularly, why build there and have to be rescued, housed, etc as a result?

Around here,there are areas that have flooded in the 90s. There wasn't much there then, but it is known to flood, because the levees are low, and have failed, in the 90's flood, for instance. So, now, there is a huge commercial development down there. Wanna take a bet who is gonna pay for that next time? The flood insurance rates are way too low to cover it, despite the fact it is a known risk.

But, as I mentioned, where there have been frequent floods, there was a buyout, and those folks are out of there. No more flood insurance payments, FEMA stuff, etc.

Bailout? Sure, ONCE. After that, its a case of learning...

And Anchorage? I remember that earthquake. That is not a predictable thing, yet, so there is no more prudence in leaving than staying. New York City apparently has a fault, that may actually be ready to pop. Do YOU suggest we force everyone out of there? And, earthquakes are one thing you can build for. Floods are also, but unless forced to by law, nobody DOES build for them.

Yes, Anchorage IS a straw man, compared to other examples.

New Orleans is the WORST POSSIBLE EXAMPLE in the US. They have a good levee system, and possibly the largest pumping system in the US, which has been there for about 100 years. They are as ready as the Netherlands, in principle. TOTALLY unlike Houston. The problem with N.O. is partly to do with starving the flood control system of money and power for the pumps. AND taking away the shore areas that used to protect against the surges that more recently have caused problems and flooding.

Houston is KNOWN to flood, apparently NOTHING has been done for decades, AND even in this flood area, folks build on what there is for lowlands, and get flooded every few years. If they pay for it themselves, fine, but that isn't the only cost. And I doubt they all pay.

Florida? Not all of it is the same risk. Waterfront property has a lot different insurance risk than other areas, and I have heard that the rates reflect that. Charge insurance based on the risk, and people will vote with their feet on where to live.

Except for rich people.... they will live there, build there, try to avoid paying insurance, and work the system for every penny of Federal, State, and local money they can before they spend any of their own money. And YOU pay for that.

Abner
09-01-2017, 06:11 PM
Yet, essentially none of the nasty stuff has occurred in Texas. Few if any reports of anger or violence, looting or any real problems of that nature like we saw right after Katrina. Color me impressed. The massive outpouring of personal assistance, made almost exclusively by regular folks with any useful capability to share, was immediate, self organized and logically carried out. No one just sat there and waited for someone else to take care of things. Most everybody it seems, quickly sprang into action and simply did the right thing.

The difference between the two events is remarkable.

Yes, I did notice that, a little looting, but all in all nothing like New Orleans. Good on Texans!
They have been talking about the "Big One" (Subduction Zone Earthquake, 8 or 9) for years. I find it sad but amusing hearing people say they have thought it through and "have a plan" which starts with getting in their car and driving somewhere else. That's it, end of plan A. Maybe a little food and a bottle of water plan A version 1.1.

randyjaco
09-01-2017, 07:35 PM
I posted this elsewhere a couple of days ago.

One of the most amazing things happened today. Our neighborhood was devastated by the Harvey floods. Over half of the houses got flooded. Most of our neighbors could be considered to be senior citizens, so this was an extra hardship. About 10:00 a bunch of cars and busses showed up full of high school kids from Friendswood High school. The kids swarmed the previously flooded houses and with permission of the owners, ripped up all the wet furniture, carpets, etc. They literally cleaned out houses in minutes. I guess I am going to have to take back some of the bad things I have said about today's youth.

*This whole Harvey thing, although miserable, has brought out the best in my fellow Texans. Instead of whining for the government to help them. Houston mayor Turner seeing he had insufficient resources requested volunteers with small boats to help out. Volunteers and private businesses have showed up from all over (including out of state) with monster trucks, fishing boats, air boats, chainsaws, you name it; and have gone into affected areas and rescued people and animals from the floods. They have pretty much got the job done before FEMA, the Red Cross and the National Guard got organized and on site. I haven't heard anything yet about government malfeasance and ineptitude such as the debacle at the Super Dome during Katrina. Things just came together with a minimum of government control, mainly just Texans helping Texans . It one of those things that makes me proud to be a Texan.

randyjaco
09-01-2017, 07:43 PM
Yesterday the National Guard showed up in Friendswood with about a dozen APCs. The city and the many volunteers had already rescued those that needed it. The Guard had nothing to do, so they headed off to the next town.
I shudder to think what the Houston area situation would have been if we had waited for the federal and state governments to show up.

Randy

Doc Nickel
09-01-2017, 08:04 PM
Innovation in the face of catastrophe: What do you do if you have three expensive sportscars and the waters are still rising?

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--9Kq0if15--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/aszn0hazevqsckm5qkmx.jpg

From Jalopnik (http://blackflag.jalopnik.com/quick-thinking-and-garden-blocks-saved-this-guys-bmw-x5-1798527553). :D

As bad as the overall situation is, I love how they're getting things done down there. Bass boats, literal monster trucks, jet skis... There's a picture of a van that was submerged, and as the waters receded, a guy took a picture of an odd pattern of regular scratches on the roof. It'd been run over by an outboard engine prop at least twice. :)

During Katrina, I got the feeling everyone, from news reporters on down to the individual people, all wanted to "blame somebody else". Why didn't X do this? Why didn't the government save us? [Politician] should have warned us sooner, etc. (I was not there, of course, I'm only going by what got reported.)

During Harvey, I much more get the impression everyone there is going "how can I help?"

I also got the impression more than a few reporters were in the area hoping to turn Harvey into Trump's Katrina- which was a definite (if entirely media manufactured) turndown in support for President Bush. But the Houstonites weren't having it. There was far more "shut up and get out of my way so I can help these people!" then there were people complaining the government didn't swoop in and save them in time.

Doc.

wierdscience
09-01-2017, 09:17 PM
Yet, essentially none of the nasty stuff has occurred in Texas. Few if any reports of anger or violence, looting or any real problems of that nature like we saw right after Katrina. Color me impressed. The massive outpouring of personal assistance, made almost exclusively by regular folks with any useful capability to share, was immediate, self organized and logically carried out. No one just sat there and waited for someone else to take care of things. Most everybody it seems, quickly sprang into action and simply did the right thing.

The difference between the two events is remarkable.

And I would point out that even in Katrina it was primarily only happening in New Orleans proper.The Northshore and Mississippi Coast saw very little bad behavior.People where I was were polite and more than willing to help anyone in need.Heck,we went nearly two months with no functioning traffic lights and not a single accident.

I think Houston will do fine given the response we are seeing.I did have to laugh at some of the absurdity put forth by the talking heads in media and social media.The controversy over Osteen not opening his church auditorium up as a shelter was one example.Did those people not remember the Super Dome during Katrina?Large auditoriums and sports arenas make lousy shelters.

The other was the obsession with what shoes the FLOTUS wore on the Houston trip.Okay,we just had a Hurricane and 50+inches of rainfall,most of SE Texas is flooded and tens of thousands are homeless-but breaking news TFL wore heels :rolleyes:

wierdscience
09-01-2017, 09:33 PM
As bad as the overall situation is, I love how they're getting things done down there. Bass boats, literal monster trucks, jet skis... There's a picture of a van that was submerged, and as the waters receded, a guy took a picture of an odd pattern of regular scratches on the roof. It'd been run over by an outboard engine prop at least twice. :)

During Katrina, I got the feeling everyone, from news reporters on down to the individual people, all wanted to "blame somebody else". Why didn't X do this? Why didn't the government save us? [Politician] should have warned us sooner, etc. (I was not there, of course, I'm only going by what got reported.)

During Harvey, I much more get the impression everyone there is going "how can I help?"

I also got the impression more than a few reporters were in the area hoping to turn Harvey into Trump's Katrina- which was a definite (if entirely media manufactured) turndown in support for President Bush. But the Houstonites weren't having it. There was far more "shut up and get out of my way so I can help these people!" then there were people complaining the government didn't swoop in and save them in time.

Doc.

Yup,I lived it,rode out the storm in my house along with my eldest brother.Listened to the local radio and EMS scanners at night the week after the storm.There was plenty of blame to go around,New Orleans was in the situation it was in due to decades of political incompetence and corruption.The Mayor and Governor both made some pretty lousy decisions and Bush made a mistake in not staying on top of his people soon enough.

All that said though,many people ordinary and not simply misjudged the storm and didn't realize the threat until it was too late.I think you are right about Bush though,the media and his political foes capitalized on the disaster and played it up for all it was worth.

ulav8r
09-01-2017, 10:02 PM
My luck continues, had just started building when Katrina hit. The cost of building materials went up before I could get mine. Have been waiting for a builder to give me a quote and I am going to get caught again.

Filled up my truck and a 5 gallon can last Sunday, today gas was $.25 a gallon more.

softtail
09-01-2017, 11:16 PM
Comparisons between Katrina and Harvey are dubious at best.

RB211
09-01-2017, 11:33 PM
The powers that be have already succeeded in making the populace extremely dumb, now they are succeeding in dividing us, well, not Texans.

Tim9lives
09-02-2017, 12:47 AM
Yea....Should not build in areas at sea level. Then again...Its hard to have a port city 100' above sea level. Almost all port cities are only a few feet above sea level. And...if we are worried about floods...Why not say the same about earthquakes. And and what about tornado alley. Might as well add in no building around any area with forest fires.

Bottom line is that we can not avoid mother nature. The real answer IMO is for areas on the coast to prepare in ways as the Norwegian and Swedish did by embracing the water...Not trying to raise the seawalls higher and higher. FWIW.... PBS Newshour had a great segment the other night. Bottom line is that these 100 year floods are happening all over the world in multiple nations on multiple continents . It IS the new normal.

Tim9lives
09-02-2017, 01:12 AM
Innovation in the face of catastrophe: What do you do if you have three expensive sportscars and the waters are still rising?

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--9Kq0if15--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/aszn0hazevqsckm5qkmx.jpg

From Jalopnik (http://blackflag.jalopnik.com/quick-thinking-and-garden-blocks-saved-this-guys-bmw-x5-1798527553). :D

As bad as the overall situation is, I love how they're getting things done down there. Bass boats, literal monster trucks, jet skis... There's a picture of a van that was submerged, and as the waters receded, a guy took a picture of an odd pattern of regular scratches on the roof. It'd been run over by an outboard engine prop at least twice. :)

During Katrina, I got the feeling everyone, from news reporters on down to the individual people, all wanted to "blame somebody else". Why didn't X do this? Why didn't the government save us? [Politician] should have warned us sooner, etc. (I was not there, of course, I'm only going by what got reported.)

During Harvey, I much more get the impression everyone there is going "how can I help?"

I also got the impression more than a few reporters were in the area hoping to turn Harvey into Trump's Katrina- which was a definite (if entirely media manufactured) turndown in support for President Bush. But the Houstonites weren't having it. There was far more "shut up and get out of my way so I can help these people!" then there were people complaining the government didn't swoop in and save them in time.

Doc.

I think you misinterpreted what you perceived as "whining. I'm from New Orleans. And the day AFTER Katrina struck...The Times Picayune newspaper front page read... DODGED A BULLET.
There was no flooding until the levees failed. They failed a day after Katrina passed over the city. Why did the levees fail. Simply because the Corps of Engineers had a design spec of 65' sheet piles for the levee walls of all of the drainage pump canals. That was the specs... 65'.
The levees failed because the contractors put down 35' piles instead of 65' piles. After the specs were out by the engineers...They redesigned them to 35' to save 100 million bucks. After 48hours of high water and soaked ground...The base of the piles were in a slush of loose water soaked mud at 35'....and they failed. Had they have been to specs...I doubt they would have failed. http://www.nola.com/environment/index.ssf/2015/08/corps_decisions_not_orleans_le.html

mattthemuppet
09-05-2017, 03:44 PM
-Actually, that was precisely my point with the first line of my first reply.

Those who, to put it charitably, basically want the government involved in and regulating everything, very frequently- and almost certainly intentionally- misrepresent the "small government" crowd as wanting no government at all.

Which is, of course, not true.

The two conflated topics I was referring to was the recent call, after an eight-year administration that added a record number of new regulations, to scale back some of the more onerous ones, to help businesses succeed. And then the claim that disaster-recovery efforts are somehow contrary to that call.

Even the most extreme-end small government type allows there is, indeed and of course, a need for some government- fire departments, police, military, roads, certain regulations, immigration control, etc.

Yes, we- I'm very much a small government proponent- like our roads and enjoy the protection of our local police, etc. And catastrophic-event coverage, after a flood or earthquake, is right in that same purview.

I'm happy to pay my taxes to keep the roads in good shape, to keep the fire department well supplied, and to have services I can fall back on if I'm displaced by fire, flood or other calamity.

I'm NOT so happy to pay taxes that go to making sure the 0.001% of people out there that have taken it upon themselves to surgically rearrange their gender, have an adequate bathroom specifically for themselves to that they may feel 'safe' in there. Or paying to force a privately owned business to produce a product in contravention to their religious beliefs.

Or to help finance a billion dollars in cash money airlifted in the dead of night to a terrorist-sponsoring foreign power. Or to aid corrupt Secretaries of State in skimming tens of millions in kickbacks.

Doc.

I think that's a great description of people who want small government - they don't want no government, they just don't want any government that themselves don't benefit from or see the point of.

For me small government would be no out of control and unaccountable military spending, no boondoggles and bridges-to-nowhere (isn't that in your neck of the woods) used to buy votes, no crazily generous early retirement and pensions at full pay for police officers and teachers that are bankrupting state governments and so on. Yet I couldn't care less about the tiny amounts of money spent on gender reassignments or viagra pills for veterans (the two of those per year = about a stealth fighter jet). It would be worth remembering that government is by the people for all the people, not just those that have it good or fit certain societal norms.

Mike Amick
09-05-2017, 05:23 PM
-
Or to help finance a billion dollars in cash money airlifted in the dead of night to a terrorist-sponsoring foreign power. Or to aid corrupt Secretaries of State in skimming tens of millions in kickbacks.

Doc.

Also .. I was waiting for someone else to correct you, but I guess not.

But .. you'll never hear this from Hannity ...

Back in 79 when Iran had our hostages, we put a freeze on their money that was here. International law dictates that
you have to put that money in an interest bearing account . The court battle has been going on for that many years
and had finally been mediated. IT WAS THEIR MONEY. Cash was their desired method of payment. The latest hostages
and the money had nothing to do with each other. Two totally different teams.

Look at any fact checking site of your choice.

I like how you try to be common sense about your politics, so I would like to think you will quit spreading the
palet of money "secretly delivered" myth.

H380
09-05-2017, 05:40 PM
I like how you try to be common sense about your politics, so I would like to think you will quit spreading the
palet of money "secretly delivered" myth.

Straight from your DNC mouthpiece.

"President Barack Obama approved the $400 million transfer, which he had announced in January as part of the Iran nuclear deal. The money was flown into Iran on wooden pallets stacked with Swiss francs, euros and other currencies as the first installment of a $1.7 billion settlement resolving claims at an international tribunal at The Hague over a failed arms deal under the time of the Shah."

http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/03/politics/us-sends-plane-iran-400-million-cash/index.html

J Tiers
09-05-2017, 06:12 PM
This will be closed soon, and should be.....

But it doesn't matter who got the job of paying back the money. If you owe money, you pay it back. German patents were honored in WW2, by the allies

I'm more interested in the very much NOT a DNC person ( a GOP hero, although he''d be an unelectable RINO now) who got us into the arms deal to begin with. What was THAT all about?

Mike Amick
09-05-2017, 06:29 PM
Straight from your DNC mouthpiece.

"President Barack Obama approved the $400 million transfer, which he had announced in January as part of the Iran nuclear deal. The money was flown into Iran on wooden pallets stacked with Swiss francs, euros and other currencies as the first installment of a $1.7 billion settlement resolving claims at an international tribunal at The Hague over a failed arms deal under the time of the Shah."

http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/03/politics/us-sends-plane-iran-400-million-cash/index.html

Actually not.
We are in agreement

The money that was seized ... WAS .. money that they paid for arms that they never got. The deal only got
half done because of the hostages.

During the Iran Nuke deal, we agreed to end the court case and pay them THEIR money.
That's not anything different than what I originally posted.

You just really want to leave out the part ... that it was their money.

Doc Nickel
09-05-2017, 06:53 PM
IT WAS THEIR MONEY. Cash was their desired method of payment. The latest hostages
and the money had nothing to do with each other. Two totally different teams.

-Oh, christ. Stop doing your part to add to the partisan divide for a minute, wouldya?

I'm quite well aware of all of those facts, and did not get them from FOX, Hannity, Rush, or whatever other righty boogeyman lives under your bed.

Yes, it was "their" money, but the fact remains, Iran is still the largest terrorist-supporting state in the region. There were dozens of fully-legal avenues available to the Obama Administration to delay or spread out the 'payments', and there were ZERO requirements we give them pallets of untraceable cash.

On the contrary, several people, supposedly, specifically warned Obama against sending them cash, specifically because it WAS untraceable.

Would you feel so blase` if by some quirk of the Armistice we signed with North Korea, that we "owed" them two billion and Trump airlifted it to them in cash money? Iran is doing the same thing- they put the bulk of that money into their nuclear program, and are running hard to build a workable nuclear bomb. That alone would have been reason enough for any decent administration to halt, delay or dole out the funds.

And don't tell me Obama's "hands were tied" or anything like that- he bombed Libya without the okay of and against Congress' permission- that's only a Constitutional Requirement, y'know.

No, sorry, letter of the law or not, it was a terrible, evil move on Obama's part, and will directly lead to a huge number of deaths when Iran gets the bomb.

Doc.

Mike Amick
09-05-2017, 07:54 PM
First off you can loose the smugness Doc.

You started the partisan talk.

Look at your list of you trying to look sensible. Every single one on the list was generic, "taxes paying for such and such" then
at the end you threw in a dead aim snark echoed and spun all over the web by your side. You did that.

I was just pointing out that the boog a boo in the story looses sting when you explain to the listeners that ...
yes .. it was their money.

Doc Nickel
09-05-2017, 08:13 PM
You did that.

-I did indeed. [edited, the rest was stupid. :D]

However, that hardly invalidates my argument. Obama gave almost two billion in untraceable cash to a terrorist-sponsoring state. If Trump had done the same thing, you'd be calling for his head on a pike.

Doc.