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Abner
10-10-2017, 08:05 PM
Interesting article about the millennial generation's lack of skills.
You might be tempted to think the video is some sort of joke -NO

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-10/home-depot-panicked-over-millennials-forced-host-tutorials-using-tape-measures-hamme

The video-

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=how+to+use+a+tape+measure+hom e+depot

Dan Dubeau
10-10-2017, 08:24 PM
urgh....

I'm really not looking forward to the next 20+ years I've got in this trade working with, as I call them "meme-lennials". Been getting a taste of it the last couple years, and it's....interesting. Couple good ones though, but for the most part it's everything you read about and more....

Bmyers
10-10-2017, 08:25 PM
What generation is or isn't teaching the millennial generation?

J Tiers
10-10-2017, 09:00 PM
There are plenty of folks in previous generations with no clue which end of the screwdriver to grab..... And they exist now as well. Probably offspring of parents who had no clue either.

The present generation is used to going online to find some video on how to do nearly anything. You could never do that before, so nobody did. There were brocures etc on hpw to do it.... Starrett put out ones on hoow to read a mic, maybe on how to use a tape, for all I know.

This is not to say the present generation is perfect, by any means. HAsn't been a perfect generation yet.

3 Phase Lightbulb
10-10-2017, 09:17 PM
There are plenty of folks in previous generations with no clue which end of the screwdriver to grab..

I grab both.. Sometimes I'll grab the top if there is a straw, and other times the bottom.. Depends on what we're celebrating too.. :)

https://cdn.liquor.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/10171258/screwdriver.jpg

barracudajoe
10-10-2017, 09:27 PM
Several years ago he had to start asking people during interviews if they knew how many 1/8's, 16ths, 32nds and 64ths were in an inch and only about 1 in 25 could answer correctly. One guy went right through them, answering correctly until, just screwing around I asked "how many 124ths", he stopped for a moment then said "You got me on that one, I never got that high in school". We've also given them items to measure and have them write there answers down and then go over them after they leave. One answer I remember was 12 and 3 medium lines (correct answer of course was 12 3/8") A lot of our work is metric and most young people don't seem to even know what that is but I bet if I asked them to divide a kilo cocaine into 4 equal portions, they'd have it down to a fraction of a gram!

3 Phase Lightbulb
10-10-2017, 09:30 PM
I bet if I asked them to divide a kilo cocaine into 4 equal portions, they'd have it down to a fraction of a gram!

If you're interviewing people that have experience dividing a kilo of coke, then I'm sure their salary requirements are off the charts for the position they are applying for :)

AD5MB
10-10-2017, 09:34 PM
I remember old coots saying the same things about my generation back in '72.

softtail
10-10-2017, 09:34 PM
Some of the finer points.. joist/stud spacing, tricks for measuring insides, why the tip/hook is loose..aren't necessarily obvious unless someone grew up framing, had a parent who knew/cared, etc.. not that the video mentioned covered any of that.

tincture500
10-10-2017, 10:37 PM
It's hard to drive nails with an iPhone app! Need I say more?

Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk

Paul Alciatore
10-10-2017, 11:09 PM
Nah, it really is easy. Just call up the app with an image of a hammer. Then hammer the nail in by hitting it with the part of the screen where the head of the hammer is.

But you should check to be sure your phone replacement insurance is currently paid first.




It's hard to drive nails with an iPhone app! Need I say more?

Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk

epicfail48
10-10-2017, 11:47 PM
Yeah, lets not all go crazy mocking millennials guys. Yeah, theres a pretty high portion of 20 year olds who arent mechanically inclined. Theres also an insane portion of people over the age of 40 who are completely incapable of using anything more complicated than a TV remote, if that.

And lets face it, nowadays youre a lot more likely to be using a computer day-to-day than you are a table saw

BCRider
10-11-2017, 12:12 AM
It's not just today's youth. About 15 years back I stopped to help a family out on the highway. I was following them and it seemed like their back lights were going dim. Then they went dark and the car coasted to the side of the road. It was winter and miles from anywhere. The guy said nothing was lighting up and the starter did not want to turn over. I asked him to pop the hood and he didn't know how. I looked inside and could not see a fan belt. I asked him something else about the engine, don't recall at this point, and he looked like a deer in the headlights.

Clearly he had no idea of what was under the hood on a car.

Now I don't expect everyone to rebuild an engine or even know how to do an oil change. But anyone that owns a car really should at least know a few basics..... like how to check oil and other fluids and maybe how to know that when the "CHG" light comes on that it is a bad thing.

Mind you the "smart ones" aren't all that smart either. I went about 10 miles back to the park lodge to call for a tow truck. When I got back some "helpful sort" was charging the guy's battery off his engine. He had told the guy in trouble that 15 or 20 minutes and he would have enough charge to make the next town. And that town was a good hour away..... So no, it wasn't going to happen. I told him that and that the "helpful sort" was blowing smoke and to just wait for the tow truck that was on the way. The HS started arguing with me so I just repeated that he should wait and drove away.

So not only are there ignorant folks out there in droves that simply do not know stuff but even those that are trained and should know better can't always be trusted.

enginuity
10-11-2017, 12:22 AM
Can you blame the latch key kids that they don't know how to use tools? Who was going to show them?

Who are the people pulling all the shop classes out of schools? Is it the millennials? No, it is the baby boomer administrators.

They tell the millennials that it is a "knowledge" world and tell them to sign the next 40 years of their life to paying off student debt.

This is a true story:

When I was in high school (I would be considered border line millennial being in my mid thirties although some classify me in the previous generation) I took as many shop classes as I could. I had an amazing machine shop teacher. I remember sitting in class one day and the teacher lamented that the guidance department (made up of ... you guessed it ... boomers) put all the kids who couldn't do math in his shop class. The teacher was trying to teach how to use a sine bar. Wait ... there is math in shop class?

Blaming millennials for their lack of tactile skills falls primarily on the parents and further generations. The millennials themselves don't know any better really. I feel sad for them. So many don't even know the joys that come with tactile labour.

I love working in with my hands. But my Dad was a tradesman who taught me the importance of hard work and always had me in the shop with him.

J Tiers
10-11-2017, 12:22 AM
Per that know-it-all and the battery/\.......It is interesting. At a certain level of intelligence, people are so used to being "right" about "most" everything, that they think they are right about "absolutely" EVERYTHING.

I have family members like that. maybe a little has rubbed off on me, too. One needs to decide whether one really IS right, before expressing an opinion or disgorging facts.

Very smart people do not usually consider that they CAN be incorrect, because they have very little experience at being wrong. They don't know what it looks like.....

The other end of the spectrum are folks who are not smart enough to see when they are wrong. That's a different problem, and may be what the "helpful sort" had going on.

MattiJ
10-11-2017, 12:43 AM
It's not just today's youth. About 15 years back I stopped to help a family out on the highway. I was following them and it seemed like their back lights were going dim. Then they went dark and the car coasted to the side of the road. It was winter and miles from anywhere. The guy said nothing was lighting up and the starter did not want to turn over. I asked him to pop the hood and he didn't know how. I looked inside and could not see a fan belt. I asked him something else about the engine, don't recall at this point, and he looked like a deer in the headlights.

Clearly he had no idea of what was under the hood on a car.

Now I don't expect everyone to rebuild an engine or even know how to do an oil change. But anyone that owns a car really should at least know a few basics..... like how to check oil and other fluids and maybe how to know that when the "CHG" light comes on that it is a bad thing.

Mind you the "smart ones" aren't all that smart either. I went about 10 miles back to the park lodge to call for a tow truck. When I got back some "helpful sort" was charging the guy's battery off his engine. He had told the guy in trouble that 15 or 20 minutes and he would have enough charge to make the next town. And that town was a good hour away..... So no, it wasn't going to happen. I told him that and that the "helpful sort" was blowing smoke and to just wait for the tow truck that was on the way. The HS started arguing with me so I just repeated that he should wait and drove away.

So not only are there ignorant folks out there in droves that simply do not know stuff but even those that are trained and should know better can't always be trusted.
Dunno, its a close call if 20 minute charge with cables gets you 1 hour of drive.
Good batt might charge initially at 60 amps and if you turn off everything else than headlights the car might consume around 20 amps. I did once 3 hours and about 200 miles without alternator but it was daytime and full battery.

BCRider
10-11-2017, 12:51 AM
In this case it was the dead of a winter's night and cold as blazes. The wife and kids would have wanted the heat on. And even then headlights were pretty much a must have as it was cloudy and snowing lightly. So no, wasn't going to happen. He'd only gotten about 20 to 30 miles on the battery once he noticed the light had come on when the fan belt dumped.

If it had been day time I'd have said just bundle up, pull the plugs off the head lights for him and told him to get it fixed at Princeton an hour and a bit down the road. But at night when you NEED the headlights? Nope

Abner
10-11-2017, 12:57 AM
It was my father in law that taught me how to cut stair jacks as he called them. Remembered the lesson very well, use it rarely but have not forgot. Obviously not everyone has a father in law like that, and I can only guess how many machining video's I have watched....
He liked cutting stairs, said it was the more interesting parts of framing a house because of the math and layout. I fell once at a hospital parking garage on a stairs, one tread was 1" too low,made me think of him and how precise he laid it all out.

The tape video was well done in my opinion, it's more a thing of never building anything as children. There is a satisfaction from the act of building, I don't understand why younger people as a group don't get that. That it has fallen on Home Depot to be the teacher seems sad. Good grief I sound like an old fart....
.

JRouche
10-11-2017, 12:58 AM
..It is interesting. At a certain level of intelligence, people are so used to being "right" about "most" everything, that they think they are right about "absolutely" EVERYTHING.

Hahaaa.. From Jerry :D I kid in good fun :) JR

danlb
10-11-2017, 01:07 AM
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. The Dunning-Kruger effect ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect ) is where people who are incompetent are generally unaware of their deficits, and often feel that they have superior skills or knowledge. On the other end, intelligent, skilled people tend to be aware of their limitations and are much more likely to underestimate their skills. This effect has been duplicated in many psychological studies.

This explains the guy who was certain that he knew enough about batteries to insist in no uncertain terms that he was right.

It also explains the boss who insists that the job can be done quicker, even though he does not know how to do the job.

Dan

Willy
10-11-2017, 01:07 AM
In this case it was the dead of a winter's night and cold as blazes. The wife and kids would have wanted the heat on. And even then headlights were pretty much a must have as it was cloudy and snowing lightly. So no, wasn't going to happen. He'd only gotten about 20 to 30 miles on the battery once he noticed the light had come on when the fan belt dumped.

If it had been day time I'd have said just bundle up, pull the plugs off the head lights for him and told him to get it fixed at Princeton an hour and a bit down the road. But at night when you NEED the headlights? Nope

I'd have to agree as well. Most cars now with an ECM at the helm will shut off totally when the system voltage drops below the 9 volt threshold.

Arcane
10-11-2017, 02:04 AM
There's 10 types of people....those who know binary and those who don't.

lakeside53
10-11-2017, 02:23 AM
.. and those that are off by one.

MattiJ
10-11-2017, 02:48 AM
In this case it was the dead of a winter's night and cold as blazes. The wife and kids would have wanted the heat on. And even then headlights were pretty much a must have as it was cloudy and snowing lightly. So no, wasn't going to happen. He'd only gotten about 20 to 30 miles on the battery once he noticed the light had come on when the fan belt dumped.

If it had been day time I'd have said just bundle up, pull the plugs off the head lights for him and told him to get it fixed at Princeton an hour and a bit down the road. But at night when you NEED the headlights? Nope

Well, cold winter wasn't mentioned in the original assessment. ;)
Or driving trough backstreets in Bronx.


I'd have to agree as well. Most cars now with an ECM at the helm will shut off totally when the system voltage drops below the 9 volt threshold.
Battery is pretty much 98% empty in any case when the voltage has dropped to 9 volts.
The 3 hour drive I did once was with "modern" multi-point fuel injection.
Old diesel volkswagon might run for days without alternator as those need electrical power only for the fuel shutoff valve.

Black Forest
10-11-2017, 04:01 AM
If he lost the fan belt then cooling the engine might be a bigger problem unless air cooled I would think but I am not a mechanic.

MattiJ
10-11-2017, 04:48 AM
If he lost the fan belt then cooling the engine might be a bigger problem unless air cooled I would think but I am not a mechanic.

Cooling problem in winter blizzard? ;)
If the fan belt runs also water pump then it might be a problem.

dave_r
10-11-2017, 05:03 AM
I've driven a Toyota compact truck, with a 4 cylinder diesel, for about 100 miles, at it's top speed (just over 75 mph) with no water (yes, it was COLD in the truck) in the middle of winter going on a ski trip (I was young and didn't put together why the heater wasn't putting out heat, even though I had done all kinds of auto repairs with my dad, who was a mechanic). But, when I had to stop for more diesel, that's when I realized the problem, got lucky in where I stopped was an auto parts/mechanics shop, and it was still early enough in the day for them to get a water pump in from the nearby big city, and then I got the pleasure of changing the water pump in -20C weather while it was snowing. Got it all together, filled up with more coolant, and...went a couple miles down the road... Walked back to the town, phoned our parents (I was with a friend for this ski trip), our dad's drove over to pick us and the truck up. Get there, the truck starts right up, no problem.

Turns out, got a crappy fill of diesel, it had gelled up. In the time it took for the parents to arrive, the temp had warmed up a bit (yay, a chinook), and the fuel was good to go again.

Good times.

alanganes
10-11-2017, 07:37 AM
As a few others have noted, this is not a new phenomenon.

About 25 years ago I was running a small manufacturing shop that made transformers. All of the drawings and build documents for things like cutting sheet insulation and such were dimensioned in fractions, typically 1/8's being the finest graduation required. When I started having to hire in new people I was sort of taken aback by how many adults, many older then me, could not read a steel scale. I ended up buying steel rules with separate 1/4, 1/8, and 1/16 scales on them so that is the drawing called for say 3-5/8" they could just flip to the 1/8's scale and count out five marks after 3".

I found in the end that these were not "stupid" people, it was just they had never been taught how and just never really had need to exercise that skill that I grew up with. So it seemed easy to me. Once I got over how "smart" I was and just showed them what was up, most figured it out just fine.

vpt
10-11-2017, 07:55 AM
I lost a belt on my truck once in the middle of nowhere. I used my bootstring around the alternator and water pump and drove slow and made it all the way home, about 100 miles worth.

tincture500
10-11-2017, 08:37 AM
Again, the political correct gang has contributed to society ills in placing barriers to education. Few high schools offer " industrial arts", wood or metal shop, auto mechanics , wet chemistry or other classes where harm may exist. Without exposure to areas of work, no choice can be made. Schools spend more dollars on bussing in major cities than expenses for education. We see a uptake in " makers" these days, but this is" learn on your own generally" , with the student not being exposed to structured basics us older guys got from shop class.
So often, we see entergetic and creative stimulus for learning stunted by ritious intention of political efforts.

Livelyhood and earnings is very adequate for manual skills. I frequent flea markets and it's sad to see the tools of mechnical trades being sold. We are loosing the small shops and skills at a great rate today with retirement. Hard today to hire trades or get adequate. fixes even at high per hour costs . Tom

Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk

tincture500
10-11-2017, 08:43 AM
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. The Dunning-Kruger effect ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect ) is where people who are incompetent are generally unaware of their deficits, and often feel that they have superior skills or knowledge. On the other end, intelligent, skilled people tend to be aware of their limitations and are much more likely to underestimate their skills. This effect has been duplicated in many psychological studies.

This explains the guy who was certain that he knew enough about batteries to insist in no uncertain terms that he was right.

It also explains the boss who insists that the job can be done quicker, even though he does not know how to do the job.

DanLet's include our brilliant elected officials for whom they beleive they are able to pickup a turd by the non-stinky end . Tom

Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk

Mcgyver
10-11-2017, 09:11 AM
Some of the finer points.. joist/stud spacing, tricks for measuring insides, why the tip/hook is loose..aren't necessarily obvious unless someone grew up framing, had a parent who knew/cared, etc.. not that the video mentioned covered any of that.

That's the advanced course.

There are useless ones, in a mechanical diy context, of all ages. Are there more today? " I think its likely. The pace of change say the last 150 years has meant every generation grows up in a very different environment from the previous generation. Its not unreasonable to suggest how these differences affect the result or that some are negative.

Baz
10-11-2017, 09:51 AM
I thought the idiots who put something on ebay that needs a dimension but they just slap a rule down in the general vicinity for the picture were lazy but now I understand they came from deprived households where their parents were technically illiterate.
Don't think I've ever worked on a house where the studs actually were 16in, guess the framer didn't have the red mark on their tapes.

J Tiers
10-11-2017, 09:55 AM
If he lost the fan belt then cooling the engine might be a bigger problem unless air cooled I would think but I am not a mechanic.

Not necessarily.

I had a Saab 96 that had the fan come off the shaft of the "front cover bearing". Drove that car for a year without it, and only had trouble a time or two on the highway in construction zone stopped traffic. Shut off engine instead of idling for 15 min... no problem.

Eventually did find the parts and fixed it.

Black Forest
10-11-2017, 10:04 AM
Not necessarily.

I had a Saab 96 that had the fan come off the shaft of the "front cover bearing". Drove that car for a year without it, and only had trouble a time or two on the highway in construction zone stopped traffic. Shut off engine instead of idling for 15 min... no problem.

Eventually did find the parts and fixed it.

OK I stand corrected!

3 Phase Lightbulb
10-11-2017, 10:39 AM
I thought the idiots who put something on ebay that needs a dimension but they just slap a rule down in the general vicinity for the picture were lazy but now I understand they came from deprived households where their parents were technically illiterate.
Don't think I've ever worked on a house where the studs actually were 16in, guess the framer didn't have the red mark on their tapes.

Even when they are exactly 16in between centers, I hate when the drywall screws miss the studs. The "magnetic" stud finders are only as good as the person that built the wall. The real stud finders are a PITA sometimes too.

rkepler
10-11-2017, 11:10 AM
It's not just the mechanical arts, folks. I used to hire a bunch of software developers and tech folks. I always insisted that they fill out an application, and they were told that "see resume" was not an answer on the application form. The number of folks who couldn't fill out an application was quite a bit higher than you'd expect. Major differences between their resume and application were also common. Both were disqualifiers. But the display of any simple ability to communicate with the written word generally caused a hire if they had the skills we were looking for. Note that many of these had degrees in the fields we were looking for and presumably 4-5 years of college classes.

(The worst were those on unemployment who, I suspect, we simply trying to get an "I applied here" stamp as they were completely unsuitable for anything we had listed. They just wanted to put their name on the application and walk away.)

danlb
10-11-2017, 11:59 AM
If he lost the fan belt then cooling the engine might be a bigger problem unless air cooled I would think but I am not a mechanic.

Not necessarily.

I had a Saab 96 that had the fan come off the shaft of the "front cover bearing". Drove that car for a year without it, and only had trouble a time or two on the highway in construction zone stopped traffic. Shut off engine instead of idling for 15 min... no problem.

Eventually did find the parts and fixed it.

There is a big difference between losing the fan belt and the fan blade. The belt in virtually all installations turns the water pump. The fan just draws air through the radiator when needed, generally when driving slow or stopped. Loosing power to the water pump leaves you with convection to cool the engine.

The person in BCRider's story lost the fan belt, so would have had no cooling except what the engine block radiated to the cold air flowing by. I can tell you from experience that you don't get far without a water pump. Maybe 15 minutes or so.

Dan

flylo
10-11-2017, 12:41 PM
I used to run a lumberyard & contractors didn't know why the ends of tape rules were loose. We kept having problems with blown off shingles so I went to every roofer & showed them how not to high nail a shingle & many responses of I've been putting on shingles since before you were born. We sold yard shed kits that came with a set of card board patterns. The people who never used a hammer had no problems but everyone we sold to a contractor came up short on material. Just like the shingles they knew too much to read the instructions. Had one church where 300+ squares of shingles were high nailed & had to be replaced. I don't care where you live read the package & use 1 extra nail as it shows for high wind areas & you'll never have a problem.

engineerd3d
10-11-2017, 12:57 PM
Being a millennial, I have to say the old timers are always complaining. My grandpa complained about my dads generation, and my dads generation complains about my generation and I complain about my kids generation. Remember this, you get what you pay for in this world, you invest your time in the next generation and get something back. I was lucky enough that my parents tough us right from wrong, and my dad taught me how to use tools and my mother taught me how to cook, which is another useful tool. At the end of the day my generation has allot of flaws, but the previous generation is responsible for allot of those flaws.

Mcgyver
10-11-2017, 01:20 PM
Being a millennial, I have to say the old timers are always complaining. My grandpa complained about my dads generation, and my dads generation complains about my generation and I complain about my kids generation. Remember this, you get what you pay for in this world, you invest your time in the next generation and get something back. I was lucky enough that my parents tough us right from wrong, and my dad taught me how to use tools and my mother taught me how to cook, which is another useful tool. At the end of the day my generation has allot of flaws, but the previous generation is responsible for allot of those flaws.

Its not a team thing. No universal statement applies to any generation. Its a discussion of averages and you were perhaps raised differently than the average as were my kids. However the environmental differences between how generations grow up are more pronounced with the high pace of change. I'd say that's true and been building for the last 150 years. 1500 years ago there was probably little change generation to generation. Observing and analyzing the results of these changes isn't complaining, nor is there any rule of universe that says the results from the change has to positive.

Have you seen this video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXWNChoIluo As an employer, it does resonate. (his name, "Sinek", has got to be clever pseudonym)

I take it you are an engineer. There is a large problem with the employ-ability of millennial's (haha the spell checker almost put in a Freudian "menials"), however with the young engineers I've hired the last couple of years the problems aren't there - my theory is the engineering degree is a filter. They had to understand striving for something, and the cause and effect of hard work to get into school and graduate, this and the cost of failure is something the average person who never saw a classmate fail a grade and also saw everyone get a trophy doesn't understand. If you got that enough to get through engineering school, you're probably more like us than you realize, vs your generation as a whole

MattiJ
10-11-2017, 02:09 PM
There is a big difference between losing the fan belt and the fan blade. The (altenator)belt in virtually all installations turns the water pump. The fan just draws air through the radiator when needed, generally when driving slow or stopped. Loosing power to the water pump leaves you with convection to cool the engine.

Dan
Maybe true on american cars but on the european cars probably good 80% use something else than alternator belt to turn the water pump for the last 30 years.

J Tiers
10-11-2017, 02:19 PM
There is a big difference between losing the fan belt and the fan blade. The belt in virtually all installations turns the water pump. The fan just draws air through the radiator when needed, generally when driving slow or stopped. Loosing power to the water pump leaves you with convection to cool the engine.

The person in BCRider's story lost the fan belt, so would have had no cooling except what the engine block radiated to the cold air flowing by. I can tell you from experience that you don't get far without a water pump. Maybe 15 minutes or so.

Dan

On the Saab, the fan and the water pump/alternator were separate belts and pulleys. It's been a while, but I ran the alternator and water pump without the fan, and had no adaptation to do it, so they were either separate, or separable.

On a US car, the water pump often had the fan on the front of it, so you would lose BOTH, and not have any backup. Presumably the car was a US car, and would be that way.

Hence: "Not necessarily".... That comment means "while it may be so for some, or many, it is not so for all".

As a note, early cars often were "thermo-syphon", with no pump at all. Admittedly, they were lower power and set up to use the system, but it may not be correct to say there would be "no" use of the radiator in a modern car. Might be good to pull the thermostat however.

pinstripe
10-11-2017, 02:42 PM
I thought the idiots who put something on ebay that needs a dimension but they just slap a rule down in the general vicinity for the picture were lazy...

That's not lazy. This guy photographs his stuff on the lid of his garbage bins.


https://i.ebayimg.com/thumbs/images/g/DSMAAOSwA3dYHGhj/s-l225.jpg https://i.ebayimg.com/thumbs/images/g/fj8AAOSwx2dYHGbq/s-l225.jpg https://i.ebayimg.com/thumbs/images/g/h4IAAOSwc1FXYi9V/s-l225.jpg https://i.ebayimg.com/thumbs/images/g/kN4AAOSwnNBXYi3Q/s-l225.jpg

engineerd3d
10-11-2017, 03:28 PM
Maybe true on american cars but on the european cars probably good 80% use something else than alternator belt to turn the water pump for the last 30 years.

Your right, however most american cars these days can go on for anything from 30 miles to 80 miles with no water in the block at all. Having cylinder banks allows them to air cool on alternating banks while using the pistons as air pumps and setting the cams to basically retain valves open at any point except TDC. At least all of my ferds do that.

engineerd3d
10-11-2017, 03:35 PM
Its not a team thing. No universal statement applies to any generation. Its a discussion of averages and you were perhaps raised differently than the average as were my kids. However the environmental differences between how generations grow up are more pronounced with the high pace of change. I'd say that's true and been building for the last 150 years. 1500 years ago there was probably little change generation to generation. Observing and analyzing the results of these changes isn't complaining, nor is there any rule of universe that says the results from the change has to positive.

Have you seen this video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXWNChoIluo As an employer, it does resonate. (his name, "Sinek", has got to be clever pseudonym)

I take it you are an engineer. There is a large problem with the employ-ability of millennial's (haha the spell checker almost put in a Freudian "menials"), however with the young engineers I've hired the last couple of years the problems aren't there - my theory is the engineering degree is a filter. They had to understand striving for something, and the cause and effect of hard work to get into school and graduate, this and the cost of failure is something the average person who never saw a classmate fail a grade and also saw everyone get a trophy doesn't understand. If you got that enough to get through engineering school, you're probably more like us than you realize, vs your generation as a whole

I may be like the previous generation, however the previous generation is not a bed of roses either. As for engineering schools being a filter. Honestly I have gone through the higher education system. I have very little respect and fairly high contempt for it. It did not teach the values that are necessary for survival in the field. You see it seems even higher education gives participation trophies. Knowing what I know now, I would have saved myself 3 years(I completed my 4 year degree in 3 years because I was an idiot) and I would have gone in the work force sooner.

J Tiers
10-11-2017, 03:47 PM
I may be like the previous generation, however the previous generation is not a bed of roses either. As for engineering schools being a filter. Honestly I have gone through the higher education system. I have very little respect and fairly high contempt for it. It did not teach the values that are necessary for survival in the field. You see it seems even higher education gives participation trophies. Knowing what I know now, I would have saved myself 3 years(I completed my 4 year degree in 3 years because I was an idiot) and I would have gone in the work force sooner.

The best and highest function of the degree is to allow you to get past the HR department and talk to the actual department who wants people. HR is required to filter out folks who do not have the "pre-requisite" degree, no matter how much of a horses ass they really are, and no matter if they are clueless and unmotivated, or an alert and competent person. The degree is the ticket in, the rest is up to the individual.

There is NOTHING else that a sufficiently motivated person could not learn independently of the university. But, the university turns out "stamped and certified beef product" which is assumed to mean a uniform degree of competence. The facts are different, but the HR dept is obliged to check for the stamps and certs, letting the department folks decide which one they hire.

MrFluffy
10-11-2017, 04:42 PM
Wow a lot of people seem to me to think they know everything about everything. I'm sure we're supposed to start off thinking we know everything then as the years roll on realize how little of the everything that is...
So I'm in my late 40's now, not sure what generation label that makes me but I remember when I was 20 or so, fresh out of tech college & my brother dragged me along to a building site and got me a start as the shuttering joiners apprentice (him being the actual real shuttering joiner), for more money that I'd ever got before in my life so far. On day one, he found me trying to clinch up the rivets on the end of my new super cheap budget tape measure, and asked me what I was doing and I told him "its loose, it shifts by about a mm or so when you wobble it, it'll make my work less accurate" and he explained to me that it was intentional and there to allow the thickness of the hook to be accomodated between interior and exterior measurements. Once he said it, it was obvious, but until then I didnt know and at that point I'd spent two years on a ND in general (mechanical) engineering course. It covered a lot about calculus, stress and strain, grain structure of materiels or how to run nc machinery and stuff, but not so much on the small details like why a tape measure has a loose hook.
Years later I'm still finding I dont know everything about everything. And isn't it brilliant?

BCRider
10-11-2017, 04:45 PM
Again, the political correct gang has contributed to society ills in placing barriers to education. Few high schools offer " industrial arts", wood or metal shop, auto mechanics , wet chemistry or other classes where harm may exist. ....

I was shocked when I learned of the loss of shop areas in many of our schools as well. We'll never all be white collar workers or CEO's. And the lack of shops in our schools means that we're sending out a whole generation of young without even the basics that such classes provided.

But it's not only the schools to blame. The boards are simply responding to the general culture. I know it's a pat answer but our communal societal approach today is messed up and this is just one more example.

Anyone seen the YT video of Jerry Kimmel asking Americans in the street where North Korea is located (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ugJZhL-cbc)? Now I don't expect folks to all be geography wizards. But this is a pretty hot topic. You'd sort of imagine that many would want to find out a little more..... or at least be familiar enough with OTHER parts of the world to not point at Canada, Australia and Europe while asking "here?"

engineerd3d
10-11-2017, 05:19 PM
Years later I'm still finding I dont know everything about everything. And isn't it brilliant?

It would be a very very sad existence if I ever found out I knew everything. One thing is for sure, everyday I find out more and more things I had no clue about and some of those things end up being quite interesting topics on their own and a source of entertainment and brain expansion.

Mcgyver
10-11-2017, 05:33 PM
I may be like the previous generation, however the previous generation is not a bed of roses either. As for engineering schools being a filter. Honestly I have gone through the higher education system. I have very little respect and fairly high contempt for it. It did not teach the values that are necessary for survival in the field. You see it seems even higher education gives participation trophies. Knowing what I know now, I would have saved myself 3 years(I completed my 4 year degree in 3 years because I was an idiot) and I would have gone in the work force sooner.

I didn't suggest the degree prepares you for anything or teaches values (or suggest it doesn't), only that I think its a filter. Those who don't understand the simple concepts of hard work is required to achieve something aren't, usually, the ones getting into or graduating with a professional degree. Its not a criticism or accolade to the institution, just an explanation for an observation. You could of course find work ethic duds in the graduating class, and stars in the gen pop. The idea of a filter though has to do with probabilities

As a value sort of thing, I would have thought what it qualifies you for would have made it worth it. Reality is we have to quickly assess and rate those we encounter and its done in large by credentials. Imperfect yes, but practical. Not just jobs either, a professional degree gives you credibility in front customers, financiers, etc

J Tiers
10-11-2017, 05:46 PM
A filter for those who are willing to work hard? Sure.

Also a filter for those who like the field and do not consider it "hard work".

Either way, out the end you get folks who are more likely than average to be what you want, if you are looking for folks to do engineering work. That does not mean they are all suitable for your workplace, of course. But the hit rate is much higher, which is one reason why HR USES it as a filter, even though there are non-degreed folks who could do as well, or in some cases, better..

Dan_the_Chemist
10-11-2017, 06:39 PM
Yup. These millennials don't know how to use a tape measure.

Okay, I want all of you who have built a house using a story stick to stand over here next to me. Those who cut the mortises and tenons by hand and used trenails stay, the rest go. Now, how many of you have woven wattle, and then daubed the walls? How many of you thatched the roof? Gosh, not a big crowd left...

Yeah... I've done all those things. But, I can't figure out how to get this damned android phone to stop chirping at me...

Mcgyver
10-11-2017, 07:09 PM
A
Either way, out the end you get folks who are more likely than average to be what you want, if you are looking for folks to do engineering work. That does not mean they are all suitable for your workplace, of course. But the hit rate is much higher, which is one reason why HR USES it as a filter, even though there are non-degreed folks who could do as well, or in some cases, better..

you're thinking skills, etc. I'm talking about is something entirely different: attitude and inclination to show up on time all 5 days of the first week of work. The experience between the engineers and the shop floor has been quite different. My suggestion (and admitted its based on a personal anecdote not a national study) I think is logical: that those with the gumption to complete a professional degree exhibit a different mix of characteristics than the generation at large; aka the filter. Of course its generalization or average, not an absolute

J Tiers
10-11-2017, 07:19 PM
you're thinking skills, etc. I'm talking about is something entirely different: attitude and inclination to show up on time all 5 days of the first week of work. The experience between the engineers and the shop floor has been quite different. My suggestion (and admitted its based on a personal anecdote not a national study) I think is logical: that those with the gumption to complete a professional degree exhibit a different mix of characteristics than the generation at large; aka the filter. Of course its generalization or average, not an absolute

Actually, I assume the basic skills are there, as that is how you graduate... you learn, and demonstrate learning by passing exams.

The folks who get through either have the "gumption" to work at something they hate, OR, and more likely, they have decided they like the field they chose, and so they have not only the engineering skills, BUT the sense to know or figure out what applies to each situation, AND the interest in doing a good job. That interest means they will learn as they go, and become more valuable.

Dan Dubeau
10-11-2017, 07:28 PM
Yup. These millennials don't know how to use a tape measure.

Okay, I want all of you who have built a house using a story stick to stand over here next to me. Those who cut the mortises and tenons by hand and used trenails stay, the rest go. Now, how many of you have woven wattle, and then daubed the walls? How many of you thatched the roof? Gosh, not a big crowd left...

Yeah... I've done all those things. But, I can't figure out how to get this damned android phone to stop chirping at me...

Ask a millennial. They do have SOME redeeming qualities. lol

danlb
10-11-2017, 10:30 PM
As a hiring manager, I often found certificates backed up by experience to be worth twice what a diploma alone is worth. A person with just a diploma has to be trained just as any other new hire, and yet is more likely to think that they are already smart enough. A person with experience in the field and appropriate certifications is likely to be more trainable.

As a person who has taken many, many university courses as an adult, I found it astounding that so many students were less interested in the coursework than they were in the way the individual teachers graded. I found those taking tech courses outside of a degree program were more likely to be motivated and performed better.

And don't get me started on schools like Stanford that don't give failing grades. They cheapen the whole institution of education.

One common discovery in a 40 year career was that a degree did not assure any level critical thinking skills, nor communications skills. It's way too easy to pay someone else to "proofread" and "edit" your papers, essentially doing your work for you. I've worked with dozens of people with degrees who could not write a simple RFQ or document a procedure. One, with a double Masters, could not write a letter advising clients of an upcoming system outage.

A degree is a good thing to have, and I wish I had the luxury of getting one. But they are no guarantee of anything. So look for experience as well as education/certification and you will find yourself more likely to find good employees.

Dan

Joel
10-12-2017, 12:52 AM
However the environmental differences between how generations grow up are more pronounced with the high pace of change. I'd say that's true and been building for the last 150 years. 1500 years ago there was probably little change generation to generation.

It really amazes me how many people overlook this obvious and very significant fact.
In this informational and technological era which we currently live, change accumulates at a pace that no one can possibly keep up with. The continually added complexity ensures that there will be more and more to know, and individuals will tend to know less and less.
This cannot possibly be good for us long term.

3 Phase Lightbulb
10-12-2017, 01:05 AM
It really amazes me how many people overlook this obvious and very significant fact.
In this informational and technological era which we currently live, change accumulates at a pace that no one can possibly keep up with. The continually added complexity ensures that there will be more and more to know, and individuals will tend to know less and less.
This cannot possibly be good for us long term.

I get concerned about that too for our next generation. We're doing things today that was absolutely impossible to even comprehend 20 years ago if you only had 10-15 minutes to explain. It would be like describing calculus to someone that just finished learning how to add and subtract numbers.

Black Forest
10-12-2017, 01:11 AM
It would be a very very sad existence if I ever found out I knew everything. One thing is for sure, everyday I find out more and more things I had no clue about and some of those things end up being quite interesting topics on their own and a source of entertainment and brain expansion.

When I was 16 I thought my father didn't know anything. When I was 25 I was really surprised at how much he had learned!

vpt
10-12-2017, 07:54 AM
In the older vehicles if you lost a belt you just had to drive fast enough for the wind to turn the fan which turned the water pump.

3 Phase Lightbulb
10-12-2017, 08:04 AM
Just curious... How many of you followed your Father (or mother) into their profession? I grew up being able to ask my Dad anything and thinking he knows how to do everything. When my father bought the family a computer (Commodore VIC-20) back in the early 80's I was absolutely fascinated with it and for the first time my Dad couldn't really offer much help as he didn't have much computer experience. Computers have been my passion and career ever since but I always wondered why I.. Was it because it was something my Father couldn't help me with? Or was it just a coincidence..

Puckdropper
10-12-2017, 11:29 AM
Just curious... How many of you followed your Father (or mother) into their profession? I grew up being able to ask my Dad anything and thinking he knows how to do everything. When my father bought the family a computer (Commodore VIC-20) back in the early 80's I was absolutely fascinated with it and for the first time my Dad couldn't really offer much help as he didn't have much computer experience. Computers have been my passion and career ever since but I always wondered why I.. Was it because it was something my Father couldn't help me with? Or was it just a coincidence..

Skipped a generation with me. My grandpa was the sort of guy who'd fit in here perfectly; my dad was a pastor. I'm really fortunate to have shared my life with both men.

rkepler
10-12-2017, 11:40 AM
Just curious... How many of you followed your Father (or mother) into their profession? I grew up being able to ask my Dad anything and thinking he knows how to do everything. When my father bought the family a computer (Commodore VIC-20) back in the early 80's I was absolutely fascinated with it and for the first time my Dad couldn't really offer much help as he didn't have much computer experience. Computers have been my passion and career ever since but I always wondered why I.. Was it because it was something my Father couldn't help me with? Or was it just a coincidence..

I landed in computers *because* my father didn't know anything about them - he was a physicist with Sandia National Labs. His dad did everything during the depression from hard rock mining to greengrocer. My son followed my father into physics, almost into astrophysics which would have been cool for a Kepler (but high energy lasers was still pretty cool).

I'll add that my father wasn't (he's still here in body but his mind is pretty much gone) some highbrow scientist to me - he taught me how to tune an engine, work on a differential, taught me how to fish, hike and camp; he and my mother made sure that we seldom spent a weekend at home with things from skiing in the winter to touring national and regional parks in the summer. My wife has not found a state park or monument I didn't visit as a kid, and we took our kids to a bunch of them. I wish now that I had found the time to get them out backpacking more, but I spent 20 years travelling with a lot of that time out of the country.

flylo
10-12-2017, 12:04 PM
In the older vehicles if you lost a belt you just had to drive fast enough for the wind to turn the fan which turned the water pump.

Left a Mint low mileage mint suzuki samurai set up for off road at camp in the UP. We broke a fan belt neat Mass City, tied a rope on but the water pump only turned when the knot hit it but got us to town where they had a gas station/ store/ parts store. The parts store was closed but they said ir you can find it go ahead & we found it & popped it back on with no tools.

BCRider
10-12-2017, 03:05 PM
Just curious... How many of you followed your Father (or mother) into their profession? ......

I followed my father in terms of some of my hobbies and interests. Wood working and metal working. But for a living I went into electronics. Trained in telecommunications specifically. Oddly enough my father sort of followed me when he took up some electronics as a hobby later in life in terms of building up audio amps and trying to find the "magic scratch filter" for his old 78 rpm records.

My father had this thing for BIG STRONG sanding machines for his wood working. Some of my most distasteful memories of woodworking center around breathing in the clouds of dust.... did I mention that he also poopoo'ed any sort of safety gear? So it's a freakin' miracle that I ever took up wood working. But when I did it was all about planes and shavings instead of grits and dust. To this day the ONLY power sander I've got in my wood shop came from his shop which he gifted to me one Christmas after he bought an even bigger one. And I still hate using it just because it's a sander.

One thing I did inherit or otherwise soak up was the ability to look at something and picture a way to work on it or otherwise see my way through steps to accomplish a job. Like he often did I frequently will build some tool or other item or adapt something instead of driving out and buying the specific tool. Generally I find I can make what I need in less time than it takes to find it on the interwebz or to drive out and back.

Dave C
10-12-2017, 03:16 PM
My grandfather was a core maker at Erie Forge and Steel. My dad started his career by pouring iron by hand in the foundry. Went to night school and worked his way up through the machine shop and retired as a manufacturing engineer. I guess I was born with the gene. Took metal shop in High School, then spent four years in electronics with the Air Force and hated it. Went right back into machining after the AF.

garyhlucas
10-12-2017, 06:14 PM
The degree filter as applied today would have kept Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Thomas Edison, George Westinghouse, and Albert Einstein from getting hired. How many others have we turned away?

J Tiers
10-12-2017, 06:54 PM
The degree filter as applied today would have kept Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Thomas Edison, George Westinghouse, and Albert Einstein from getting hired. How many others have we turned away?

I know of several. One other guy had the degree, but the HR guy didn't even forward the resume' to me, he didn't think the applicant was a good fit for the job. I did not know the applicant existed until he managed to call me. We hired him like a shot, and he was one of the best guys we had.

One of the worst things that has ever happened is this "rules are rules", "zero tolerance", "follow procedures and never deviate from them" crap. It's as if suddenly all those fussy librarians have taken over.

Even ISO9XXX, which has its very good points, is often abused. You can be ISO9000 making wineglasses, even if you hit each one with a big hammer after it is set in the shipping box. As long as the hammer is calibrated and the hitting procedure is documented, you are golden.

While I totally get the point of ISO, it seems to have somehow missed the OTHER point, in an odd way. The assumption is that if you follow all your procedures, you will make good product. And that should be true. Often is true. But focusing on that one thing tends not to necessarily improve the product, but sometimes seems to let it fall to the lowest acceptable level.

The riles for hiring, and the rules for who can and cannot be salaried, etc, are much like that also. They tend to drive toward the lowest acceptable level of employee, and you have to work hard to avoid that.

Paul Alciatore
10-13-2017, 12:48 AM
I think this is a slightly veiled example of a problem I saw a long time ago in schools. Too many "teachers" only teach by memory. They don't really understand a subject themselves so they make the students memorize the facts and then parrot them back on the tests. No understanding is imparted.

Math: just remember the tables. But forget any understanding of what is going on.

History: History is my favorite bitch about teachers. Just memorize the dates. Don't worry about what was actually happening. Just tell me what date this or that happened. I hated history until I finally got a good history professor in college. It was a required course and I was not looking forward to it. But he told the story and it was fascinating. I have loved reading about history ever since.

Science: Remember the names of the chemicals or just memorize the formulae. Don't worry about what they mean. This spills over to engineering. When you wonder why a bridge collapses or a building burns down, just look at engineering classes in our universities. Memorize, memorize, memorize. But understand nothing.

Literature: Oh boy! I think one of the best ways of explaining how I feel about the literature classes I took was a short story by one of my favorite authors, Isaac Isamov. Now he was a very prolific author in several areas, so I don't think any one can say his opinion does not count in this discussion. He told a si-fi story about the English author William Shakespeare being transported forward in time. Will, being amazed and curious about his works being the subject of university classes in our day, registers for one such course. And in the story, Shakespeare flunked Shakespeare. Even the author could not understand what the professors were teaching about his own works. Asimov did wonder if his works would ever be the subject of such courses and he wondered if he could pass such a class. Apparently his opinion of university professors ideas mirrors my own. I believe he was using humor to get a very profound point across.

Etc., etc., etc.

The last thing that our "teachers" teach is how to think for yourself.




Several years ago he had to start asking people during interviews if they knew how many 1/8's, 16ths, 32nds and 64ths were in an inch and only about 1 in 25 could answer correctly. One guy went right through them, answering correctly until, just screwing around I asked "how many 124ths", he stopped for a moment then said "You got me on that one, I never got that high in school". We've also given them items to measure and have them write there answers down and then go over them after they leave. One answer I remember was 12 and 3 medium lines (correct answer of course was 12 3/8") A lot of our work is metric and most young people don't seem to even know what that is but I bet if I asked them to divide a kilo cocaine into 4 equal portions, they'd have it down to a fraction of a gram!

IanPendle
10-13-2017, 06:55 PM
It's hard to drive nails with an iPhone app! Need I say more?

Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk

Surely your 'Tapatalk' can do that!

barracudajoe
10-13-2017, 09:45 PM
Some of this may be due to the dumbing down of the school curriculum. I learned to read a ruler in grade school. It was tied into learning about fractions. We even learned how to use a slide rule, Yes, I'm that old! Now you don't have to know anything except how to punch it into your calculator. Take that away from kids today and I doubt many of them would know how to add 5/8 + 3/16.

fixerdave
10-14-2017, 03:03 AM
... The last thing that our "teachers" teach is how to think for yourself.

I actually work with a lot of teachers, technology type teachers at a technical college, and this does not ring true for many. Now, said many often lament the quality of student coming into their classrooms, but even that ebbs and flows. Last year, the Mech instructors were raving about how amazing their students were. This year, half the new Elec students deserve to fail and the instructors are pulling their hair out trying to get them to actually, you know, think.

I've one instructor that forces his students to do labs with real stuff instead of the simulators, because the simulators snap the wires whereas breadboards let you miss by one, and learn why that matters. Students hate him. They want to do it the easy way. Simulators are easy; youtube vids are easy. Reality is hard.

I have a lot of respect for the instructors I work with. They try hard, most of them anyway.


David...

01-7700
10-14-2017, 07:22 AM
We had a great shop class in my high school back in the 70's. I wish I had taken greater advantage of what they had to offer back then. We had 6 lathes, a foundry and sand casting, small engine shop, woodworking, welding, automotive. All the things that I'm interested in doing now.

I remember a couple of incidents where the kid's projects required special permission to proceed. One kid wanted to change the stance on his party van's wheels by cutting the center disc from the barrel of his steel rims and rewelding it back on at a different offset. The shop teacher said no way but the kid explained that he and his father did it frequently on their race cars and after a lengthy discussion he was allowed to proceed.

The other time was when two kids did the math and figured that with the pennies we were being charged for materials, they could make something of real value to sell. They started making wood stoves out of plate steel and got them almost finished before they got shut down and not allowed to remove them from school property.

The rest of the kids were just doing the default projects at each station or making smoking pipes and bongs when the teacher wasn't looking.

A.K. Boomer
10-14-2017, 09:27 AM
In the older vehicles if you lost a belt you just had to drive fast enough for the wind to turn the fan which turned the water pump.

Never owned an old boat but the theory makes sense as the pump would be turned in the right direction, and the fan would get to wipping on most due to not having all the other crap in front of the radiator like engine oil coolers, tranny coolers and AC condensers .

might even get you out of the speeding ticket if the Cop was a motorhead too lol

good one Andy.

Puckdropper
10-14-2017, 12:55 PM
All you need is a common denominator, ANY common denominator
5/8 + 1.5/8 = 6.5/8
2.5/4 + .75/4 = 3.25/4

Some math purist is yelling right now, decimals in the numerator and left in my final answer!

ewkearns
10-16-2017, 07:54 AM
There are plenty of folks in previous generations with no clue which end of the screwdriver to grab..... And they exist now as well. Probably offspring of parents who had no clue either.

The present generation is used to going online to find some video on how to do nearly anything. You could never do that before, so nobody did. There were brocures etc on hpw to do it.... Starrett put out ones on hoow to read a mic, maybe on how to use a tape, for all I know.

This is not to say the present generation is perfect, by any means. HAsn't been a perfect generation yet.

Before retirement, I taught a technical subject in Community College. Over the last 20 years or so, I watched as incoming classes come in with less and less familiarity with tools, measuring, and common sense born of actually beginning a manual arts task and completing it. Prior to that, I taught in industry where I had to familiarize students with shop math, bluepint reading, hand work, and machine shop. While these folks weren't perfect, they had some basics on which to build. Millennials, on the other hand, grew up in homes where there were no tools and maintenance, repairs were services to be bought, not performed, and they never saw anything in K-12 that prepared them to work with their hands.. What changed? We are seeing the inevitable result of not teaching the manual arts in schools (things like Home Ec., Industrial Arts, and Vocational subjects), helicopter moms, standardized tests, and being told "good job" just for being able to fog a mirror.

Let me close by explaining my indictment of "standardized testing." When I was in school, if a student was injudicious enough to ask "Will this be on the test?" The stock answer was, "Anything we say, do, see, listen to, or read in this or these chapter(s) in the text(s) may be on the test," and the teacher was always good as his or her word. In the last 20 years or so, there was a quickening of this question until it got to the point it was a daily occurrence. Millenials have been trained to expect to know exactly what is on the test and, consequently, they have no interest in being truly prepared or well rounded in a subject. Their education has been built around an appropriate score on a particular test that for which they have been specifically prepared (you can read that, taught the answers to the test). These tests are structured, out of necessity, not as good assessment tools, but assessments that are easily (machine) scored. Millenials show little interest in "wasting time" learning that which is not on the test. One effect of this is that these kids have absolutely no idea when they know a subject and when they are clueless, If they can recognize a few words and characteristics associated with the subject they think they are prepared, but that is characteristics of the training gained from standardized testing. Bottom line is that Millenials have been handicapped by poor parenting and a system of education that has fostered the notion that education is a spectator sport with no prospect of failure. Yeah, they are different from prior generations, but they didn't just get that way.... it was a process.....

engineerd3d
10-16-2017, 11:52 AM
Before retirement, I taught a technical subject in Community College. Over the last 20 years or so, I watched as incoming classes come in with less and less familiarity with tools, measuring, and common sense born of actually beginning a manual arts task and completing it. Prior to that, I taught in industry where I had to familiarize students with shop math, bluepint reading, hand work, and machine shop. While these folks weren't perfect, they had some basics on which to build. Millennials, on the other hand, grew up in homes where there were no tools and maintenance, repairs were services to be bought, not performed, and they never saw anything in K-12 that prepared them to work with their hands.. What changed? We are seeing the inevitable result of not teaching the manual arts in schools (things like Home Ec., Industrial Arts, and Vocational subjects), helicopter moms, standardized tests, and being told "good job" just for being able to fog a mirror.

Let me close by explaining my indictment of "standardized testing." When I was in school, if a student was injudicious enough to ask "Will this be on the test?" The stock answer was, "Anything we say, do, see, listen to, or read in this or these chapter(s) in the text(s) may be on the test," and the teacher was always good as his or her word. In the last 20 years or so, there was a quickening of this question until it got to the point it was a daily occurrence. Millenials have been trained to expect to know exactly what is on the test and, consequently, they have no interest in being truly prepared or well rounded in a subject. Their education has been built around an appropriate score on a particular test that for which they have been specifically prepared (you can read that, taught the answers to the test). These tests are structured, out of necessity, not as good assessment tools, but assessments that are easily (machine) scored. Millenials show little interest in "wasting time" learning that which is not on the test. One effect of this is that these kids have absolutely no idea when they know a subject and when they are clueless, If they can recognize a few words and characteristics associated with the subject they think they are prepared, but that is characteristics of the training gained from standardized testing. Bottom line is that Millenials have been handicapped by poor parenting and a system of education that has fostered the notion that education is a spectator sport with no prospect of failure. Yeah, they are different from prior generations, but they didn't just get that way.... it was a process.....


When I was in High School, I was looking for shop class. They dismantled it before my eyes and the teachers that taught shop were teaching theater arts..... The auto shop was dismantled and turned into storage closet, even the chemistry lab was at risk at that time. The reason for all of this? People quick to sue, not enough students for any of those subjects and also a dwindling group of teachers that even wanted to teach such things. It was extremely sad to see the 50-60 years worth of equipment being sold off and scrapped. I have owned my own tool set both electronic and mechanical since I was about 6-7 years old. I love working with my hands, its my only therapy in life. Although my profession has me sitting behind a desk. Sometimes even after a 10-12 hour hectic work day I go into my shop and work there for 4-6 hours or sometimes just sit and think. My generation missed out on so much its sad to see and hear sometimes. None of my friends can spin a wrench for example. Most cant even perform an oil change on their own or change a spare tire.