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View Full Version : Battle Shaper - *clank* - I can't figure it out. HELP ???



Dan_the_Chemist
12-18-2017, 08:48 PM
So the Battle Shaper is clean, green, and in place. I've done some surfacing with it, cleaning off the mill scale of some cast iron bars to make straightedges, etc. Then I began to notice a *CLANK*. I don't know if it's been there the whole time and I just noticed it of late, or if it has developed the clank.

I've looked for the source of the clank. I can't find any gibs that are loose, any gears that are loose, etc. I have watched the works on the inside and I can't see any sudden resetting or shifting. The one part I can't see is where the yoke connects to the pin on the ram.

Anyway, I thought I'd enlist the help of the hive-mind. To this end I've made a 2 minute video showing the Battle Shaper in action with and without *clank* Don't worry, this isn't "click bait" - I have not monetized anything, I have 6 subscribers, and I don't put up videos often enough to make it worth your time to subscribe. :) I just can't think of any other way to describe the problem better than letting you see and hear it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBFte42sS_8&feature=youtu.be

Thanks in advance for your help. :)

dave_r
12-18-2017, 08:53 PM
It definitely is about to explode, taking out both your garage and your house.

I better come by and haul it away for you.

Bob Fisher
12-18-2017, 09:05 PM
No idea about the " clank", but you just GOT to love that pink 4 X6 bandsaw! Bob.

danlb
12-18-2017, 09:12 PM
It's always at the same point of ram travel... when it's stopped and about to change direction. The wheel at 1:57 is always at the point where the pin in the rotating part is at the same position. I'd look there???

J Tiers
12-18-2017, 09:28 PM
Check the block that slides in the ram yoke (inside) for slop at the location where it clanks.

BTW, I found one of the tools, and a big tool blank, but am still looking for the other big brazed tool that should be here...

reggie_obe
12-18-2017, 09:28 PM
Maybe it's pissed off because you've got that pink chinese bandsaw parked next to it?
Only seems to happen when the ram reverses.... That's a clue.

The Artful Bodger
12-18-2017, 10:01 PM
It does appear that the machine is set for a rather long forward stroke and perhaps that is bringing you close to a 'top dead centre' situation somewhere. I suggest shorten the stroke and see if that changes the noise.

John

BCRider
12-18-2017, 10:07 PM
Check the block that slides in the ram yoke (inside) for slop at the location where it clanks.

BTW, I found one of the tools, and a big tool blank, but am still looking for the other big brazed tool that should be here...

My thought too.

It's correctly called a "Scotch yoke" or "Scottish yoke" but you get the idea.

There is likely some play that is producing the clank. But when running at lower speed the time from pushing to pulling and for the block that slides between faces is moving more slowly so you don't get the CLANK.

That block is supposed to be lubed at the start of each session. A thick way oil would be my suggestion.

Oh, and I found my own smaller shaper was doing that a little too. I had lubed the ram dovetail with my bed way thick lube. When I unlocked the ram from the Scottish yoke I found that it "oozed" along easily enough but when pushed a little faster that there was a lot of viscous drag. I've since switched to the same lighter 10W non detergent oil I use for my lathe head main bearings and a lot of my own clank is gone. Depending on what sort of oil you're using for the ram you might be in the same boat.

Dan_the_Chemist
12-18-2017, 10:22 PM
No idea about the " clank", but you just GOT to love that pink 4 X6 bandsaw! Bob.


Maybe it's pissed off because you've got that pink chinese bandsaw parked next to it?

It's not pink. It's ... um ... faded red. It's also right in the doorway and brightly lit. It's an old Horrible Fright bandsaw that seems to fail the color-fast test. It's not my fault. *sob*

Geeze guys, stop embarassing me. Yer as bad as my wife. Speaking of my wife, you can see the color she called sea-foam on the top handle and crank in the tool shelf. Yeah, I repainted all the rest with straight hunter green. Don't make me re-paint the band saw... :p



Here is an addendum video showing what happens when I hand crank the Battle Shaper. I didn't include it because you can't really see anything other than the fact that it does really happen exactly as the ram starts to reverse.

At the point of the clank I feel almost no resistance to turning. The circlular path that sliding block is traveling is nearly parallel to the axis to the ram, and it moves very easily. At that point I can easily turn the handle more rapidly. The the block starts to press against the side of the yoke and it gets HARD to turn the crank anymore. I wonder if it's sort of "getting ahead" at that point and then "taking up slack" as the block presses against the side of the yoke.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpID875iT3M&feature=youtu.be

Dan_the_Chemist
12-18-2017, 10:28 PM
It does appear that the machine is set for a rather long forward stroke and perhaps that is bringing you close to a 'top dead centre' situation somewhere. I suggest shorten the stroke and see if that changes the noise.

John

It was set that long because I had been taking the surface scale off of some 22.5 " long dura-bars that I've had sitting around waiting to be turned into straight edges. Yes, the clank is much reduced when taking shorter strokes. Amazing machine that can handle such a job with ease.... it did take forever, but I got a nice finish. :)

The Artful Bodger
12-18-2017, 10:39 PM
Obviously approaching the end of the stroke the movement drops to zero for a moment which is when you feel the lack of resistance. I think the sliding block would need quite some clearance to make the 'clank' and am wondering if it is slack at the top end of that swinging arm where it connects to the ram.

achtanelion
12-18-2017, 10:56 PM
My guess is that the block has some clearance against the slot in the crank arm of the whitworth mechanism. The clank is it tilting to a different angle in the slot as the force begins to change direction.

Dan_the_Chemist
12-18-2017, 11:02 PM
There is likely some play that is producing the clank. But when running at lower speed the time from pushing to pulling and for the block that slides between faces is moving more slowly so you don't get the CLANK.

That block is supposed to be lubed at the start of each session. A thick way oil would be my suggestion.

Oh, and I found my own smaller shaper was doing that a little too. I had lubed the ram dovetail with my bed way thick lube. When I unlocked the ram from the Scottish yoke I found that it "oozed" along easily enough but when pushed a little faster that there was a lot of viscous drag. I've since switched to the same lighter 10W non detergent oil I use for my lathe head main bearings and a lot of my own clank is gone. Depending on what sort of oil you're using for the ram you might be in the same boat.

INTERESTING. Yes, I used way oil (Vactra) for the ram ways. The clank has only been noticible when the temperature is low... Since my shop is not heated, low means 35- 40 F. I never noticed it when the temperature was a balmy 55 F.

Well, this will be a new line of enquiry. Thanks for the place to look.

J Harp
12-18-2017, 11:03 PM
On the first "clank with the crank" I think there is visible motion of the sliding block, from right to left.

I suggest you rock it back and forth at the clanking point while videoing it, and see if you can spot motion there. Is there provision for taking up wear in the block?

_Paul_
12-18-2017, 11:22 PM
Possibly a worn "Die Block" or/and the bush/pivot it runs on? looking at your video's it seems to be at the extreme of the stroke where the forces change on the bush at bit like a worn car big end bearing, I dont know how your particular machine is put together but as a test I would personally be tempted remove the bush/pivot in the centre of the die block inspect for wear and then as a trial pack with heavy grease try a few runs and observe the difference.

I have 5 shapers and my 1940's Alba used to clank very similar to yours the cure for that was a new shop made die block and bush/pin, lately I have noticed my Elliott 10m is starting to "knock" a little so I may have to repeat the same job with that.

Paul

Optics Curmudgeon
12-18-2017, 11:53 PM
One place to look is the stroke adjustment mechanism. This machine has a through the bull gear shaft adjustment setup with the stroke adjustment screw turned via a bevel gear pair at the center of the bull gear. If the nut that shifts the pivot pin wears this exact clunk will happen. I had the same clunk (at the same point in the stroke) on an Atlas shaper I was refurbing, turned out to be the adjustment nut. Then again, it could be in any part that slides against another surface. There should be no significant clearance between any of the moving parts. All of this being said, it's more of an annoyance than anything. As for lubrication, the best plan is way oil on all sliding parts and heavy open gear lube on the gears.

Danl
12-19-2017, 12:20 AM
I think I'd try fitting a feeler gage at the 'clank' position at the pivot bearing and a couple other likely wear points, starting with 0.005" and trying thicker ones until I found the maximum wear. If you could then somehow slide a similar thickness shim in that position while hand cranking it, you might have a better idea of where to focus your attention.

Dan L

J Tiers
12-19-2017, 12:44 AM
I had a loose block on one of mine (a much smaller machine).

I ended up soft soldering a shim onto the block to fill the space, when I got tired of hearing the clank. Very much like that one, IIRC it was loose all along the yoke, but it only clanked on one position (not at BOTH reversals) because of the way the motion and ram speed worked.

Soldering went OK after I burned off all the oil and excess carbon from the block surface that I wanted to solder to. That took some cooking of the cast iron.

3 Phase Lightbulb
12-19-2017, 12:57 AM
I would apply pressure to it with my hands while it's running. See if that changes the loudness of the clank. You may also feel something that might help narrow it down. It sounds like play as the lobe changes from a push-pull. Get in there and inspect everything.

But before you do anything, get rid of that pink horz saw - that should not be in anyone's shop ;)

Mark Rand
12-19-2017, 04:37 AM
The other place to look is the one where my 10" Royal shaper gets its clank from. That's the pivot at the bottom of the arm. Over time, these can wear eliptical.

boslab
12-19-2017, 05:51 AM
No idea where but you might want to learn the dark art of listening to the end of a long screwdriver, it works rather well, don't like stethoscopes, when you listen you can home in on an area by intensity, we used it on bearings in the steelplant (a water board((the company not the interrogating method)) leak rod was handy to keep back from big shafts, a steel rod with earcup)
It helps get the area of the problem.
Mark

Abner
12-19-2017, 08:02 AM
No idea where but you might want to learn the dark art of listening to the end of a long screwdriver, it works rather well, don't like stethoscopes, when you listen you can home in on an area by intensity, we used it on bearings in the steelplant (a water board((the company not the interrogating method)) leak rod was handy to keep back from big shafts, a steel rod with earcup)
It helps get the area of the problem.
Mark

Dark art? I'm all in. I agree. I once used a mechanic's electronic stethoscope to isolate a transmission noise noise that sounded like it was coming out the opposite end of the car. Never heard of the screw driver thing but that makes complete sense.
Do they make a magnetic stethoscope or could you rig one up to keep your digits a safe distance away?

Chin up Dan - It takes a very secure man to have a pink bandsaw. ;) I use pink paint on my axes etc. Best color to find something laying on the ground imho.

Edit; Nice shaper btw.

thaiguzzi
12-19-2017, 08:09 AM
Click Clack - greatest Captain Beefheart song ever.
Sorry, couldn't help myself, carry on....

metalmagpie
12-19-2017, 09:58 AM
Is that big lever on top of the ram loose? That makes a hell of a clank if so. Otherwise, like everyone says, measure the gap next to your sliding block with feeler gauges. Shouldn't be more than .005" or so.

metalmagpie

3 Phase Lightbulb
12-19-2017, 10:02 AM
Actually, the pink paint is probably the best theft deterrent you could possibly have. Nicely done :)

BCRider
12-19-2017, 11:22 AM
When I'd previously used the thick stuff on my own Alba's ram it was always fairly warm. But this last time I used it a few weeks back it was pretty cool in the shop what with winter and all. I think it was the temperature that really brought out the clack at the reversal point. It also only really occurred at the front switch over where the geometry of the yoke motion slipped from the lower "over the top" drive at the slower speed to the faster retraction.

If you're going to check for play (and there will be SOME) then the point to check is right at the transition point where the bull wheel's connection point is at right angles to the yoke slot. With it there you'll easily feel any play and can even measure it. You could also reach down towards the lower pivot and see if it's moving too. Any excessive wear in the lower pivot would certainly support the clacking.

I'm not worried about the lighter oil for cool weather operations because there's so much surface area even when the ram is running quite a long reach. But I'd say to be sure it would require re-oiling just a little about once every half hour of actual run time to make up for easier oil migration out of the sliding surfaces. And once it warms up I'd go back to the thicker stuff.

Unlocking the ram lock bolt to the arm and simply sliding the arm back and forth in the slow oozing way and then with rapid motion really shows how much viscous resistance there is. It was like trying to move a pretty stiffly damped shock absorber.