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View Full Version : OT: repair ancient Toro snowthrower or buy new?



gellfex
03-22-2018, 09:54 PM
I had my old 24" Toro supposedly tuned up a few years ago and it was totally crapping out on me today, I think the carb was flooding. Sadly, I'm not an engine guy, was raised a city boy by a city boy. The guy at the local garden center that worked on it commented that it weighs a ton compared to newer models, that seems a good thing! Old iron is what we're about, right? It has to be at least 30 years old, my dad gave it to me like 18 years ago, and he had gotten it used.

I'm too lame to screw around when I need this thing, I need a dependable unit. So....

A: should I repair or replace?
B: If repair, how do I find someone? Who works on these besides garden centers? You'd think I could find someone to work on it in my yard, rather than schlep it to their shop.
C: If replace, with what? I don't have a huge place, but about 80' of driveway and 50 of sidewalk to do.

I have a vague idea that when I no longer want to wrestle with one of these, I'll make a deal with a kid that he can use it to make money if he does my property for free. But maybe that would be only pennywise.

Thoughts would be appreciated, hopefully last night was the last snowstorm of our season!

digr
03-22-2018, 10:56 PM
Replace its not worth messing with.

paul463
03-22-2018, 11:12 PM
Pictures? The old machines were loaded with actual bearings instead of bushings, heavy gauge steel, and cast iron gear boxes. If it's in otherwise good shape maybe consider a repower.

Arcane
03-22-2018, 11:17 PM
Have you been using ethanol free gas in it?

Just as an aside, I have a Toro 20" "Snow Hound", around 50 years old now.

wtrueman
03-22-2018, 11:24 PM
Yes, keep that thing! If the unit is basically sound, you will be better off. The carb is probably the culprit but the ignition system could also use a check over as well. If it runs, it will likely out last you! Otherwise, just send it to me!

J Tiers
03-22-2018, 11:45 PM
At least you CAN repair old ones. I'd do it.

For one thing, that was probably made back when stuff was actually made to be used, and not made to sell, not made purely to a price in some low cost foreign nation. So, it was designed to work well, it was made to be repaired. I think the city boy needs to learn some basic carburetor and engine repair. I say carburetor, because that is the usual (but not the only possible) cause of problems. It may need cleaned out and washed out with solvent. Could be as simple as a blocked jet, something got through whatever filter is in place.

There are three things needed to run a gasoline engine. Gas, compression, and a spark. Compression is somewhat negotiable, gas is not, and a spark is a bit negotiable also. If it does not start, drip some gas on the air cleaner element, or down the carb. If it starts, probably a carburetor issue. (a half teaspoon or so down the carb, just slosh some on the air cleaner)*

To check basic spark, remove the plug, connect the wire to it, and lay it on some bare metal on the engine. have someone pull the starter while you look at the plug, shading the plug if it is bright out. You should see a good fat spark. Compression you usually can feel as you pull the starter, but it is rarely a problem, except in old engines where the rings are either worn or gummed up with carbon and not touching the cylinder walls reliably.

I got a free lawnmower last year. Friend of my wife was getting rid of it because it did not work. it has a PLASTIC carburetor, not meant to be repaired. Of course that was the problem. They are university profs, not engineering, and would rather pay for repairs, or buy another.

I did fix it, I found where and how to snap the plastic parts apart, and cleaned out a quantity of some sort of crystals, as well as gum and the usual crud from the machine being left with gas in it over winter. Worked on the third pull after it was re-assembled.

the usual repair would be to replace the carb, which probably would cost as much as the mower.

* someone is sure to warn about backfires lighting gas on the air cleaner..... I've never had it happen, but I put the cover back on, which should cool it too much to be lit.

lakeside53
03-22-2018, 11:53 PM
Fix the carb. Flooding is often as simple as new needle valve and/or seat. Trivial and cheap. Plenty of u-tube and DIY guides.

J Tiers
03-23-2018, 01:12 AM
Yes, forgot to mention flooding, and OP even mentioned it. Have seen it so bad that gas ran out the muffler.

Float valve jammed, crud in it, or needs a new seat and valve plunger. A few bucks only, plus a solvent washout.

Willy
03-23-2018, 02:10 AM
Do what it takes to learn how to fix it. Lots of info at your disposal if you choose to do so. You being here suggests you have some mechanical abilities and you can have the opportunity learn some new tricks along the way. Another feather in you cap if you will.
Buying a new one only prolongs the inevitable as it will still be fundamentally of the same working principle, only more difficult to actually fix, as in replacing components rather than being able to repair them. It's only a matter of time when it too will need some attention.

If this borders on a level you aren't comfortable with remember there is no shame in farming the snow removal out either. Everybody has their own comfort level.

johansen
03-23-2018, 03:35 AM
I live near the seattle area, and in this climate really the only problem i find is the ethanol separating out of the gasoline due to water soaking into the gas. this causes a jelly of aluminum hydroxide weird stuff in the bottom of the aluminum carb bowl that clogs the jet. no seafoam doesn't dissolve it.

most anything made in the last 20 years will probably not be affected by ethanol gas, but older systems will have orings that will expand and soak up ethanol, you will need to replace them.


it is possible the oring in the carb float needle valve has soaked up enough ethanol to expand and fold over itself, and that's why its flooding.


btw you can pull all the ethanol out of the gas simply by dumping about 1 fluid ounce of water into a gallon of gas and vigorously shaking it. the ethanol-water mix will separate out. no, i'm not tempted to drink it, although i've heard the phrase "jungle juice" came from doing just that.. some third world country we shouldn't have sent 20 year olds into.. but i digress.

but i doubt that you can put such ethanol free gas in your engine and suck the ethanol back out of the rubber. you will probably have to take it apart and replace the oring that the needle plunger sits against.



but if you can buy a gallon of ethanol free gas, you might be able to let the oring sit in that for a week and it might shrink back.


people keep talking about gas going bad. i burned 250 gallons of 4 year old gasoline in my 1996 s10 (4.3L vortec) (stored in a heating oil tank in 55F average temperature) and didn't notice any problems. we burned about a dozen gallons of it in my brother's vw jetta 1995 2L. he hesitated a bit saying "this doesn't even smell like gasoline" but we didn't notice anything different.

PStechPaul
03-23-2018, 05:07 AM
When I bought replacement keyboards for my laptops, I noticed that the seller also sells a wide range of replacement carburetors, mostly under $20. That might be a good option:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/pinellia2009/m.html?ssPageName=STRK%3Anull%3AMESOI&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2654

Another possibility would be replacing the entire engine with one of the new "Predator" gas engines from Harbor Freight. About $100 for a 6.5 HP:

https://www.harborfreight.com/65-HP-212cc-OHV-Horizontal-Shaft-Gas-Engine-EPA-69730.html?ccdenc=eyJjb2RlIjoiODU5NjY0NTEiLCJza3Ui OiI2OTczMCIsImlzIjoiOTkuOTkiLCJwcm9kdWN0X2lk%0D%0A IjoiODgxMCJ9%0D%0A

If it were mine, I'd be tempted to retrofit it with an electric motor. Quiet, clean, simple, and reliable. But obviously not suitable for the "electrically challenged". ;)

johansen
03-23-2018, 05:19 AM
]

Another possibility would be replacing the entire engine with one of the new "Predator" gas engines from Harbor Freight. About $100 for a 6.5 HP:

https://www.harborfreight.com/65-HP-212cc-OHV-Horizontal-Shaft-Gas-Engine-EPA-69730.html?ccdenc=eyJjb2RlIjoiODU5NjY0NTEiLCJza3Ui OiI2OTczMCIsImlzIjoiOTkuOTkiLCJwcm9kdWN0X2lk%0D%0A IjoiODgxMCJ9%0D%0A

you can't be serious.

Black Forest
03-23-2018, 06:20 AM
Only someone from NJ would say this about a tune up a few years ago and now it doesn't run right. My God man what do you exoect? Have you used it this year and it ran good?

rzbill
03-23-2018, 06:24 AM
you can't be serious.

Do you have direct experience or is this prejudice?

My local Honda power tool manufacturing plant makes Predator engines.

lwalker
03-23-2018, 07:50 AM
Depends.

I'd repair it, but I'm running a 35 year-old Murray garden tractor with a snowblower and a 15 year old Honda Foreman with a snowplow. Expecting 7" of wet snow tonight and the Murray won't start and I think the Honda has water in the gas, freezing the float in position. But I just need time to do that, you need money.

If you want to start working on small engines, I'd say you have the perfect platform to start with. The Tecumseh & Briggs motors are easy to work on and there's lots of help online.

If you can't be bothered learning to fix it, it's going to cost you more and more to keep it running over time as parts wear out. My Murray came with the house and I lost track of how many things I've had to replace in the 12 years I've had it. If I had to pay $100+ every time I needed work done, I'd have tossed it out years ago.

Me, I'd keep it, but I like working on that old stuff (when I don't have a snowstorm breathing down my neck...). I understand that some people just want things to work, though, and that's perfectly reasonable.

wmgeorge
03-23-2018, 08:24 AM
You guys missed the point. He is not a mechanic and pays someone to work on it. Since its more than likely had ethanol fuel and the oil has not been changed in years, let alone the spark plug.

So my free advice, put it on local swap sheet or Craigslist as not running. Find someone who sells and services new Toro or whatever snowblowers and get a new one. No ethanol fuel unless that's all you can buy, if so put the fuel treatment for that in the gas tank. Take to your serving dealer once a year.

wdtom44
03-23-2018, 08:46 AM
I would use a gas stabilizer and if you can at the end of the season run it out of gas. But if the machine is in basically good condition it is worth keeping going, way better than what you can buy, or buy without spending top dollar. If it has sealed ball bearings in different places around it you may be able to carefully pry the seals, (the "rubber type) out and add grease. The metal shields you can very carefully drill a small (about 1/16") hole in the seal and inject grease, then clean the area around the hole with solvent and put a dab/smear of silicone gasket maker over the hole. If it has a gear box check and possibly change the lube. If the problem is carb/gas possibly running some Sea Foam additive through it may help. Gas is terrible now.

wmgeorge
03-23-2018, 09:53 AM
I would use a gas stabilizer and if you can at the end of the season run it out of gas. But if the machine is in basically good condition it is worth keeping going, way better than what you can buy, or buy without spending top dollar. If it has sealed ball bearings in different places around it you may be able to carefully pry the seals, (the "rubber type) out and add grease. The metal shields you can very carefully drill a small (about 1/16") hole in the seal and inject grease, then clean the area around the hole with solvent and put a dab/smear of silicone gasket maker over the hole. If it has a gear box check and possibly change the lube. If the problem is carb/gas possibly running some Sea Foam additive through it may help. Gas is terrible now.

So he needs to pay someone $200 to replace the carb and flush out the fuel system and do a full tune up? Or just pedal it for $50 and buy a new one and have it serviced every year at the dealership, cost for a new one at end of year sale.... $500? PS my old Craftsman I purchased in 1970 and sold to my son in 1993 and he gave to a friend who IS a mechanic is still running. I serviced myself every year, my son did the same and the mechanic he gave to did also. So I think that speaks for itself. My new JD blower I purchased in 1995 is still working fine.

CPeter
03-23-2018, 10:03 AM
Whatever you do. DON'T buy a Sears Craftsman.
1. They are about to go out of business
2. They don't work as well as they look like they should

I did just this and wish I had bought an Ariens or Toro or Troy-Bilt
Cpeter

Dan Dubeau
03-23-2018, 10:13 AM
Whole carbs are dirt cheap from china. If the rest of the snowblower is in good shape, you like how it works, and can see more years of good service from it then buy a brand new carb for it. If the rest of the machine shows signs of heavy wear, than yeah look at replacing it. No point in putting a new handle on an axe if you're gonna have to replace the head soon too. I bought one for my old 8hp Tecumseh snowking for around $2-25 cdn. Not much to replacing a carb on a small engine. I put new gas lines on it at the time too. The motor hadn't ran in about 5 years, the old carb was so gummed up and corroded it wasn't worth fixing. After bolting the new one on, priming it, it fired on the first pull. I havn't touch an adjustment screw on it at all either.

New stuff just isn't made for longevity anymore. It's made to last just long enough to think you got a good deal on it so you buy another of the same brand.

You're on a home shop machinist BBS, I assume you have at least a moderate amount of mechanical knowledge (or else why would you be here :)) and can probably work your way through it. If that fails, there's probably 100 you tube videos on exactly how to do it, that could walk you through the whole process.

QSIMDO
03-23-2018, 11:16 AM
NEW carburetors are horrible!
They're jetted extremely lean and you can't re-jet them.
And unless you find NOS parts somewhere you can't find jets & bits for old carbs.
Just went through this on my only 6 or 7 year old blower with a 10.5 Tecumseh.

J Tiers
03-23-2018, 11:28 AM
You guys missed the point. He is not a mechanic and pays someone to work on it. .......

But he is here?

He WAS NOT a mechanic until he got here.....

NONE OF US was a mechanic of any sort until we learned. Not you, not me, not AK Boomer.

If he wants to replace it, then we can do something else and not bother to read more of this. It's a done deal..... sell the good stuff cheap, buy the crap new and expensive. That's how to lose money on machinery, or in the stock market.

wmgeorge
03-23-2018, 11:52 AM
But he is here?

He WAS NOT a mechanic until he got here.....

NONE OF US was a mechanic of any sort until we learned. Not you, not me, not AK Boomer.

If he wants to replace it, then we can do something else and not bother to read more of this. It's a done deal..... sell the good stuff cheap, buy the crap new and expensive. That's how to lose money on machinery, or in the stock market.



I had my old 24" Toro supposedly tuned up a few years ago and it was totally crapping out on me today, I think the carb was flooding. Sadly, I'm not an engine guy, was raised a city boy by a city boy. The guy at the local garden center that worked on it commented that it weighs a ton compared to newer models, that seems a good thing! Old iron is what we're about, right? It has to be at least 30 years old, my dad gave it to me like 18 years ago, and he had gotten it used.

I'm too lame to screw around when I need this thing, I need a dependable unit. So....

A: should I repair or replace?
B: If repair, how do I find someone? Who works on these besides garden centers? You'd think I could find someone to work on it in my yard, rather than schlep it to their shop.
C: If replace, with what? I don't have a huge place, but about 80' of driveway and 50 of sidewalk to do.

I have a vague idea that when I no longer want to wrestle with one of these, I'll make a deal with a kid that he can use it to make money if he does my property for free. But maybe that would be only pennywise.

Thoughts would be appreciated, hopefully last night was the last snowstorm of our season!

This is what he posted just this morning, so is he a mechanic or not... HE says not. I am Just going by what he posted?

RMinMN
03-23-2018, 11:57 AM
Whole carbs are dirt cheap from china. If the rest of the snowblower is in good shape, you like how it works, and can see more years of good service from it then buy a brand new carb for it. If the rest of the machine shows signs of heavy wear, than yeah look at replacing it. No point in putting a new handle on an axe if you're gonna have to replace the head soon too. I bought one for my old 8hp Tecumseh snowking for around $2-25 cdn. Not much to replacing a carb on a small engine. I put new gas lines on it at the time too. The motor hadn't ran in about 5 years, the old carb was so gummed up and corroded it wasn't worth fixing. After bolting the new one on, priming it, it fired on the first pull. I havn't touch an adjustment screw on it at all either.

New stuff just isn't made for longevity anymore. It's made to last just long enough to think you got a good deal on it so you buy another of the same brand.

You're on a home shop machinist BBS, I assume you have at least a moderate amount of mechanical knowledge (or else why would you be here :)) and can probably work your way through it. If that fails, there's probably 100 you tube videos on exactly how to do it, that could walk you through the whole process.

You said a real mouthfeel there. I just bought a used snowblower and the worm gear was worn out. Why? Because instead of being lubricated with oil that would be replenished every time the worm came around it had had a little grease applied to the gear and when that got pushed off the gear there was no more lubrication and the gear wore out.

J Tiers
03-23-2018, 12:05 PM
This is what he posted just this morning, so is he a mechanic or not... HE says not. I am Just going by what he posted?

That adds no new information.

NOBODY was a machinist, or a mechanic when they were born. That's one reason so many ask questions on these forums.... to find out how.

If he specifically says (instead of sorta implying it) "I am not going to pick up wrench #1 to fix this no matter how easy it is" then that's fine.

In that case the question is all settled, other than which form of chinese crap he is buying, and which junkyard the old one is going to. Paying to fix is not economical.

We can move on and not think about this thread.

paul463
03-23-2018, 12:47 PM
OP, go here and ask questions.
http://www.snowblowerforum.com/forum/

3 Phase Lightbulb
03-23-2018, 12:50 PM
you can't be serious.


Do you have direct experience or is this prejudice?

My local Honda power tool manufacturing plant makes Predator engines.

I think he was just saying none of our names are serious. "you can't be serious" - "correct, my name is blaahh blaahhh".

gellfex
03-23-2018, 01:23 PM
Wow, thanks for so much thoughts on this! I guess it is embarrassing to be a machinist but not an engine mechanic like most of you, but that was the way my life went down. The question is whether I want to invest the time learning what I would need to know to keep this one going. It usually only comes out 2-5 times a year! Plus there's at least 2 more issues I didn't mention, the gear shifting has always seemed a problem, like no detectable differences among the forward gears, and it tends to ride up over the snow requiring a lot of effort pulling up on the handles. The Garden center put on new plastic skids which may have made things worse as they're not a great fit.

I have no idea where to get ethanol free gas around here, are there specialty places? I always run it dry after use, same with my generator.
I've had no luck in the past attempting to even get the maintenance manual never mind the partslist for this machine. If I could get solid "flowchart" style diagnostic tools my confidence would be much higher about tackling this.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/dtajlM3mAlyXuP8XMIe72sutkFZPeLDkrb4B6jqrX8xNXZajoX H97BNux3NdvxI1UMYeU3_uYFOuGunxow-qsAMi7uFr-p71Bk4zy6l1jIc_jhS6_pqB485eQ4TVsViUrWGpAwbsXWuLj5G _n4LdIgxSUM6davbbG2-788xnhIv1z06-1DPfhNzW8q8eO9vBUuPlt4_nCO3R4bz5nTHC-OtFx0fbIsDzRRJitMHLAzdA4jFtJ4c7nvwkK4fqlc4jS7ZQuck _B0oLFGZo-KNzWZkkrHj_WHr5-XPr1nUgzOGMU4fY0Z9Q3g7bfYtCwBsQcQu-PM26ureTTnGGozwVJ6yNRxBb4LphIKslE4QZrK0KwMkqv02WWR Kf_Gl2VX0qxFUI8L580px1wPMP0_7kAfPe_2pj1K3vJmAxZ9CV XIRZCdLXVmOS2N378jjGTnkYIgGtFLAaiQVX7Yj5fGRRi1-q4jLGjCs7WBQikYTpTN1xcI8Pu2Jc8UkpqEo-1MWGmwQQmIoqFGyKS96UVwjgY6xqsH6i1HP2HL_d3-BfbgKEucS0dGW5lifNTX1LBAsaqey_sPCEo0zAtLZ1aKoMXZdz 0impS7c1JDpISAg=w1170-h878-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/25G9tp5XKweKPR3i15hDk0k5IJEOrRPMCfwJnA7u8Nwxb1qRrr pCAfAh7Jpj8OBRWhZc0QkLQHzql3PwKkTzzcvtdkzW53uAeHJQ mopdTqDBnVmhbyUK73RU6GDxyhVW6hFBzNgvxbbzKHn0CIHfrO r5rhh55tDfG3uIGWDwQNuUAjg_9j9NafQqhSUgK64PQR-d1Z8TOpHFG5qScLA_5KL7D_dU-TDTuUBZ5ATicknDLos7wH9B6EzSSRQkdPxDynIXUybZg0GwGRr 7PVWXnzDkcPdg3Gzvmy5AcqH7HAMVFsBhgOhRdC-EgJp-Ceb4AU16KzpnQTvv51XkwM7jYvvyaaukDZpoBzsqPJLmNYkyBr cQqTXrCmD6IUInvUS2TMWlPuq8JNPS0aCqTBr8dWXc70-Jyk8koOpn-LEoHEQVfzvO_kT8HltEXi18OtID8BVf5TrOQLkZtcq9bbK2fub riZbGYpMN63J3X3IczGn1W4Flz-X1BRlvmX9pOSmnN_8TTd85sZFFTmrxgmig4QpdA12zMHWQr3hB pCaJ9LMOKhv42B8NrMupiVGBaU9W8sDhWKZ8GQz5Ex7RKQY_qe Kul9rfvPLghoX_ZQ4=w1170-h878-no

RMinMN
03-23-2018, 02:07 PM
The carbuetors on those engines are pretty simple. It is easier to repair one than it is to take one off and put it back on again. There are no cams, no acceleration pumps, just a float that controls a valve and the orifices that meter the fuel. Flooding means that the float is stuck or the valve has some gunk in it. The valve consists of a "needle" that is about 1/8" square with a tapered tip on it, usually a synthetic rubber but it could also be just steel or brass. The seat is simply a piece of brass with a hole through it that the needle contacts.

If the shoes are causing it to ride up it is because they are too wide. Make them narrow, like the thickness of the part that the bolts go through. You can make new ones or just cut the flare off the old ones.

The shifter probably consists of an aluminum disk that a rubber coated wheel rides on at right angles. Moving the rubber coated wheel to the outside of the aluminum disk makes it go faster. There is no "gear" to shift.

wmgeorge
03-23-2018, 02:13 PM
That adds no new information.

NOBODY was a machinist, or a mechanic when they were born. That's one reason so many ask questions on these forums.... to find out how.

If he specifically says (instead of sorta implying it) "I am not going to pick up wrench #1 to fix this no matter how easy it is" then that's fine.

In that case the question is all settled, other than which form of chinese crap he is buying, and which junkyard the old one is going to. Paying to fix is not economical.

We can move on and not think about this thread.

This is what he posted. How much clearer can it be??


I'm too lame to screw around when I need this thing, I need a dependable unit. So....

A: should I repair or replace?
B: If repair, how do I find someone? Who works on these besides garden centers? You'd think I could find someone to work on it in my yard, rather than schlep it to their shop.
C: If replace, with what? I don't have a huge place, but about 80' of driveway and 50 of sidewalk to do.


Moving on is fine, he is a Machinist by trade and does not want to work on his self, just as clear as ABC.

J Tiers
03-23-2018, 02:23 PM
This is what he posted. How much clearer can it be??



Moving on is fine, he is a Machinist by trade and does not want to work on his self, just as clear as ABC.

perhaps the 'phone book would provide more pertinent information than all of us who may not live in even the same continent, let alone state or city.

There is a certain implication past what is said.... it seems to ask about others, BUT..... since you are being a jailhouse lawyer here, remember that "where do I find a person to...." can potentially be answered by "in the mirror" or, better, "inside your clothes".... That does not violate any logic conditions put forth in the question as it was actually asked.

Arcane
03-23-2018, 02:50 PM
Wow, thanks for so much thoughts on this! I guess it is embarrassing to be a machinist but not an engine mechanic like most of you, but that was the way my life went down. The question is whether I want to invest the time learning what I would need to know to keep this one going. It usually only comes out 2-5 times a year! Plus there's at least 2 more issues I didn't mention, the gear shifting has always seemed a problem, like no detectable differences among the forward gears, and it tends to ride up over the snow requiring a lot of effort pulling up on the handles. The Garden center put on new plastic skids which may have made things worse as they're not a great fit.

I have no idea where to get ethanol free gas around here, are there specialty places? I always run it dry after use, same with my generator.
I've had no luck in the past attempting to even get the maintenance manual never mind the partslist for this machine. If I could get solid "flowchart" style diagnostic tools my confidence would be much higher about tackling this.


Here's a list of service stations that purportedly sell ethanol free gas.

https://www.pure-gas.org/

I can certainly understand where you are coming from, it's basically the same reason I bought a NEW BP clone mill rather than buying a used one.

wmgeorge
03-23-2018, 02:59 PM
perhaps the 'phone book would provide more pertinent information than all of us who may not live in even the same continent, let alone state or city.

There is a certain implication past what is said.... it seems to ask about others, BUT..... since you are being a jailhouse lawyer here, remember that "where do I find a person to...." can potentially be answered by "in the mirror" or, better, "inside your clothes".... That does not violate any logic conditions put forth in the question as it was actually asked.

from the OP post 1, I'm too lame to screw around when I need this thing, I need a dependable unit. So....

A: should I repair or replace?
B: If repair, how do I find someone? Who works on these besides garden centers? You'd think I could find someone to work on it in my yard, rather than schlep it to their shop.
C: If replace, with what? I don't have a huge place, but about 80' of driveway and 50 of sidewalk to do.


Well I know your from the Show Me state and I Love it, but sometimes I wonder.... and its as easy as ABC? and after reading the additional information the OP posted, my suggestion is more so, buy new from a servicing dealer or sell what you have and Hire your snow removal.

PStechPaul
03-23-2018, 08:10 PM
You might be able to find local backyard mechanics who specialize in small engine repair by searching Craig's List, or looking at bulletin boards or asking at an Ace Hardware or Tractor Supply store, or similar. You might also contact local landscapers and snow removal companies and ask who they might recommend. Some time ago I saw a sign on the road for mower repair and I stopped in to see if they had parts for a mower I was trying to repair. They didn't, but the guy offered to give me a mower that was no longer wanted by the owner. He said it probably needed carb work because it would start and run briefly if starting fluid was sprayed into the air cleaner. I took it home, cleaned the carb, and it ran pretty well for a couple of years.

wmgeorge
03-23-2018, 09:42 PM
If he Really wants it repaired. There has to be somebody in his neighborhood, the kid or the guy who is always working on his car or motorcycle. Our local full service hardware store fixes mowers and snowblowers and the mgr and I always joke about the people who leave ethanol gas in the tanks and wonder why they don't start. I maintain all my motorized stuff, and never an issue starting or running.

garyhlucas
03-24-2018, 10:18 AM
While old snowblowers were made better 30 years ago there have been a few big improvements. The one that stands out for me is 120vac electric start with an inlet mounted right on the engine for a cord. Snowblowers sit for 11 months, its freezing and then you want them to start. The AC starter motor with no battery does a fantastic job for that first start after sitting. I was away this week and my wife easily started it up.

Snow blower maintenance should get done at the END of the season. Drain all the gas, run the engine until all the fuel is gone and it quits. While it is hot drain all the oil and put in fresh oil. Inspect belts and such and order any parts now. With 11 months before you need it again there are no excuses for why it dosen’t work!

01-7700
03-24-2018, 11:58 AM
While old snowblowers were made better 30 years ago there have been a few big improvements. The one that stands out for me is 120vac electric start with an inlet mounted right on the engine for a cord. Snowblowers sit for 11 months, its freezing and then you want them to start. The AC starter motor with no battery does a fantastic job for that first start after sitting. I was away this week and my wife easily started it up.

Snow blower maintenance should get done at the END of the season. Drain all the gas, run the engine until all the fuel is gone and it quits. While it is hot drain all the oil and put in fresh oil. Inspect belts and such and order any parts now. With 11 months before you need it again there are no excuses for why it dosen’t work!

11 months? more like 6 months here

projectnut
03-24-2018, 12:11 PM
Personally if you can afford it I would replace the machine. I also have several machines in the 30 to 45 year old range. They aren't maintenance free, and if you don't like working on them new is the way to go. Buying new and having someone else do the maintenance isn't the cheapest route. However it's less frustrating than the machine not working wen you need it, and struggling through maintenance and repair procedures when you aren't familiar how to do them and have no interest in taking them on. If you do buy new try to find a place that's close enough that will also do the annual servicing. Also see what it will cost to have them pick up the machine if the one you buy is too large to transport yourself. In most cases warranty doesn't cover transportation to and from the dealer.

I purchased a commercial blower a couple years ago. It's a tracked machine with a hydrostatic transmission. Unfortunately at one year old it became difficult to steer. It's supposed to have a clutch release on the inside of a turn and that wasn't happening. I had to bull the 400+ pound machine around each corner. The dealer agreed it needed to be repaired, but also informed me that either I had to bring it to the shop, or pay to have it picked up and delivered. I can't lift a 400 lb. machine into the truck, and the trailer is 3' deep in snow, so it cost $80.00 to have it picked up and delivered. It was an added cost, but I knew that going into the purchase, and I certainly wasn't going to try to talk the dealer into letting me do a repair that's covered under warranty.

jdedmon91
03-24-2018, 12:22 PM
I agree on the replacement part. Even though I can work on stuff sometimes it’s just easier to buy new and move on. Sometimes you just want to do the task at hand and not play mechanic


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3 Phase Lightbulb
03-24-2018, 12:44 PM
UGGHHH... I've been hiring out snow removal but I haven't been able to find someone that doesn't gouge the hell out of the grass and landscape along our driveway and circle. Every year they come out and stake everything out before the 1st snowfall, but they still bust sprinkler heads and landscape lighting, and tear up a lot of edging. Every spring I say no more but then I hire them again.

Tommo
03-24-2018, 03:05 PM
Wow. I just saw this. I actually have one of these old Toro snowblowers but it's more like 30 or 36". I didn't read the entire thread but the updraft carbs they used on these things are not exactly an easy design to live with. IMO it's worth saving. The local place here charges a labor rate of $72/hr for service. Sort out the carb, at the end of the season drain all the gas out of it and dump it in your lawnmower. If it snows like twice a year there, get an electric snowblower.

rzbill
03-25-2018, 04:21 PM
I think he was just saying none of our names are serious. "you can't be serious" - "correct, my name is blaahh blaahhh".

OK. I totally missed the "Don't call me Shirley" angle. Thanks.

JCHannum
03-26-2018, 08:56 PM
More than likely, it has either a Briggs & Stratton or Kohler engine. I would guess a Kohler. Either one will have a name tag with model number on it. A web search will turn up parts and service manuals, usually in pdf form. Several sources for parts for these engines, most are still well supported as they were in use for decades. A carb rebuild kit would be a good start for probably under $20.00 and dead simple to install after squirting carb cleaner through every passage.

Ethanol free gas guide is here;

https://www.pure-gas.org/

Sparky_NY
03-26-2018, 09:07 PM
More than likely, it has either a Briggs & Stratton or Kohler engine. I would guess a Kohler. Either one will have a name tag with model number on it. A web search will turn up parts and service manuals, usually in pdf form. Several sources for parts for these engines, most are still well supported as they were in use for decades. A carb rebuild kit would be a good start for probably under $20.00 and dead simple to install after squirting carb cleaner through every passage.

Ethanol free gas guide is here;

https://www.pure-gas.org/

Tecumseh was extremely common on snowblowers.

JCHannum
03-26-2018, 10:58 PM
Pretty much the same information applies to Tecumseh engines as to information and parts availability. The point is, if the problem is with the engine, the needed information and parts will be found by searching for the engine manufacturer rather than the equipment manufacturer.

garyhlucas
03-27-2018, 07:47 PM
UGGHHH... I've been hiring out snow removal but I haven't been able to find someone that doesn't gouge the hell out of the grass and landscape along our driveway and circle. Every year they come out and stake everything out before the 1st snowfall, but they still bust sprinkler heads and landscape lighting, and tear up a lot of edging. Every spring I say no more but then I hire them again.

I tried to convince the neighbor to go in with me on a snowblower for both of us to use. I would buy it and he would store it in his garage. Can't figure out what was wrong with that deal, he bought his own and now we both have to store them!

gellfex
03-27-2018, 10:51 PM
Again, thanks all. I'm thinking maybe when the weather warms I should at least try and work on this poor thing. I think it's a Briggs & Stratton, and I'll try and get docs for it. Can anybody suggest a "small engines for dummies" book?

I guess the biggest problem is, unlike say a lawn mower, there's no way to really test it till I need it! It can run fine under no load, what it did after I got it serviced last time, but still stall when its pushed into a snowbank. Is there any way to put a load on this? Make it pull a pallet of rocks?

Willy
03-28-2018, 11:13 AM
If the engine is tuned properly it should idle well when warmed up and also be very responsive to throttle position movements from idle to full throttle when warm. If not then the usual likely suspects are carb mixture and governor adjustments. Don't forget a carburetor can have lots of issues that will affect the mixture strength and quality if everything is not as it should be.

I can't think of a practical way to place a full load on a snowblower without snow nor can I think of one for a lawnmower without a lawn to cut, yet these machines are built and serviced everyday without a load being placed on them.

There are lots of informative sites describing the fundamental workings of small engine operation online, seek those out if you aren't clear as to how the various systems interact. I'm not capable of assessing the level of knowledge you have in this regard so it may be best if you do this research on your own in order to find what level of info you need.

However I have left three links below that may be of help.
The first is a small engine troubleshooting chart, and remember not all options on the pages to these links will be applicable to your particular engine.
The second link is one from B&S and is a troubleshooting flow chart.
The third link is a good source of info in regards to carburetor rebuilding that covers many various makes and carburetors.

Hopefully you have a long time before you may actually need the machine again so take your time.:)

http://s.hswstatic.com/pdf/how-to-repair-small-engines.pdf

http://henigins.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/Briggs_Flow_Chart_Trouble_Shooting_Guide.197184848 .pdf

http://outdoorpowerinfo.com/repairs/

RichR
03-28-2018, 11:42 AM
... I can't think of a practical way to place a full load on a snowblower without snow ...

Place it in an inflatable kiddie pool with 6 inches of water?

reggie_obe
03-28-2018, 12:02 PM
I guess the biggest problem is, unlike say a lawn mower, there's no way to really test it till I need it! It can run fine under no load, what it did after I got it serviced last time, but still stall when its pushed into a snowbank. Is there any way to put a load on this? Make it pull a pallet of rocks?

Visit an ice skating rink, find where they dump the Zamboni after resurfacing the ice. That should be close to a real world test.

gellfex
03-28-2018, 12:36 PM
Thanks Willy, I'll be digging into that. As for Pure-Gas, NJ only has 9 stations, and the nearest is an hour away!

01-7700
03-28-2018, 01:19 PM
Place it in an inflatable kiddie pool with 6 inches of water?

yes! my old toro 524 would throw water - haven't seen a snowblower that could match that since i got rid of it foolishly

Machine
03-28-2018, 03:37 PM
You didn’t include any pictures so it's hard to tell if it's really worth saving. IMO I love the heavy duty quality of the old units compared to the new Chinese junk they sell today. However, I love the new quality built motors made by Honda and the modern Briggs and Strattons. They blow the old B&S and Kohlers away. I mean the old cast iron Kohlers are good, but the modern Hondas and B&S start so easily, run so smoothly, quietly and deliver fantastic power. Plus they're much more fuel efficient, so they run considerably longer on a tank of gas. And they require almost no real maintenance. Solid state ignition means the old points and condenser stuff is a thing of the past. Plus the carbs are designed for ethanol gas, so they're less likely to be fouled for this reason too.

If the base snowblower is still solid, instead of fixing the carb or messing with the old motor, I would strongly consider swapping out the motor with a good used Honda or B&S. Or maybe try one of those Predators, which I've actually heard good things about (I believe they’re essentially Chinese copies of Honda motors). And a Predator may be a good choice if you don’t really use the snowblower that much anyway. And one thing I would definitely do is get a motor with more power than the original (within reason). I had a 5hp snowblower and that thing was wimpy, it threw snow like it had a prostate problem. I replaced it with a plow blade for my tractor and haven’t looked back, but if I was to do it again, I would get a snowblower with 10hp minimum.

gellfex
03-28-2018, 09:25 PM
If the base snowblower is still solid, instead of fixing the carb or messing with the old motor, I would strongly consider swapping out the motor with a good used Honda or B&S.

Interesting idea, I'd have to look at the numbers and the time involved. Where does one find "a good used Honda or B&S" and how does one know it's good? Craigslist and hope for the best?

BTW I posted pics in post #28.

ulav8r
03-28-2018, 11:22 PM
BTW I posted pics in post #28.

They don't show here.

gellfex
03-28-2018, 11:57 PM
They don't show here.

That's weird, I just checked with an incognito browser in case it was only for me being logged into Google, and there's nothing there! Not even an error code. I wish there were an easy way to get files directly from Google photos to Imgur.

I was just looking at the Predator engines from HF. For $100 (20% coupon) I can get a 6.5hp 212cc Predator. If that HP rating isn't BS that's a 30% gain, and a new engine without the E10 gas problem. Wouldn't going up to 8hp jeopardize the drive train with too much power? This is starting to look like a decent plan, assuming I can figure out the shifter issue.

Lets see if these pics are visible

https://i.imgur.com/1KzJxz2.png

https://i.imgur.com/cYzw19u.png

https://i.imgur.com/dkzIzWR.png

Willy
03-29-2018, 12:29 AM
You may be able to use the engine for another project if you decide to re-power the Toro.
At another horse and a half I personally wouldn't worry too much about over stressing the gearbox. You are still going to be turning the the same width auger and probably at the same speed if you use your present two step pulley.

Speaking of your two step pulley, remember that one side drives the auger and impeller while the other side, the back side, drives the drive wheels. No transmission as in a gearbox. Take the belly pan off and you'll see that it's a very rudimentary drive system.
While you're in there now would be the time to lube all bearings/bushings, gears, and the "transmission's" sliding yoke that moves the driven rubber coated wheel against the disc that is powered by rear side of the engine's pulley. Sounds more complicated than it is, all very basic stuff, you'll figure it out as soon as you look at it.

RB211
03-29-2018, 01:46 AM
Hey, make sure if it’s a 2 stroke engine or four. We had a Toro snow thrower that was 2 stroke.

Machine
03-29-2018, 07:40 AM
That thing looks like a really nice old one in very good shape. Yeah I'd consider doing a motor swap. I'd at least take the old motor off, take some measurements and see if a new one would bolt right up. But even if it doesn't bolt right up, hopefully it will only require minor mods a machinist like you could do.

One other thing I didn't think about, which seeing your machine brought to mind: I forgot these snow blowers have a carb anti-ice system. If you look at the routing of the air that goes into the carburetor, it has a valve that can direct some of the air to flow over the muffler to pre-heat it before it goes into the motor. It's a very simple duct system, but it is used on snowblowers commonly, presumably because carb icing can be a problem under certain circumstances that occur when a snowblower is used. I think I've heard other guys a lot more knowledgeable about snowblowers than me say you don't really need it. So you may be able to get by without it? Not sure. But even if you did need it, it's such a simple system, you should be able to rig it up on a new motor too without too much trouble (you normally remove the air filter on snowblower engines, so it wouldn't be in the way).

PS>>Craigslist is where I shop for anything used. You can find decent used Honda or new generation B&S engines on there all the time.

Glug
03-29-2018, 08:07 AM
The solution seems fairly obvious.

https://www.use.com/images/s_2/02a3c93f48be9c688aa2.jpg (https://www.use.com/OgbRL)

Puckdropper
03-29-2018, 08:18 AM
If you decide to repower, please post a build thread. I've got a very similar snow blower and have been thinking about repowering it. The motor on there is a Tecumseh HS50 (yours may be too), and while I'm good at mechanical things of all kinds motors just aren't my thing. (I've tried to fix it, new coil, new plug, fresh gas, check/clean the point gap, but it needs more TLC than I can offer it.)

3 Phase Lightbulb
03-29-2018, 10:08 AM
The solution seems fairly obvious.

https://www.use.com/images/s_2/02a3c93f48be9c688aa2.jpg (https://www.use.com/OgbRL)

WRONG! That only works when replacing a vertical shaft engine.

Glug
03-29-2018, 12:02 PM
WRONG! That only works when replacing a vertical shaft engine.

I should not need to mention that there is a right angle milling attachment hidden in there.

It makes the magic happen.

Willy
03-29-2018, 12:26 PM
If you decide to repower, please post a build thread. I've got a very similar snow blower and have been thinking about repowering it. The motor on there is a Tecumseh HS50 (yours may be too), and while I'm good at mechanical things of all kinds motors just aren't my thing. (I've tried to fix it, new coil, new plug, fresh gas, check/clean the point gap, but it needs more TLC than I can offer it.)

This would be my first guess as well. The Tecumseh HS50 snowking engine is essentially a very good engine and new replacement carburetors are dirt cheap. You can easily identify these engine by simply looking at where the carb and exhaust ports are positioned in the engine block in relation to the fan/flywheel housing.
The HS 50 has the exhaust port near the inside closest to the flywheel and the carb is toward the pto end. This is opposite of what is normally used on most engines. Tecumseh used this arrangement on it's Snowking series so that the carburetor runs warmer and receives warm intake air to prevent icing issues.

Thinking about this a bit since my last post I remembered that there is one aspect you may have issue with if you decide to re-power. This would be the two step pulley. Shaft size for the Tecumseh is 1 inch while other engines in this horsepower class are 3/4 inch. I haven't done the re-power thing, always rebuilt or fixed what I had but do know that this will be your biggest obstacle vs a straight bolt in engine swap.

http://www.smallenginewarehouse.com/Repower-Old-Equipment/Toro-524-snowblower-Category/

You may have to do a bit of machining, an option most folks don't have.:)

PS: Let me know if this is indeed a Tecumseh engine and I'll leave you a download link to a factory service manual for this engine.

gellfex
03-29-2018, 01:12 PM
If you decide to repower, please post a build thread. I've got a very similar snow blower and have been thinking about repowering it. The motor on there is a Tecumseh HS50 (yours may be too), and while I'm good at mechanical things of all kinds motors just aren't my thing. (I've tried to fix it, new coil, new plug, fresh gas, check/clean the point gap, but it needs more TLC than I can offer it.)

Oh, I'll definitely be begging for help here! Your story (I'm similarly engine impaired) is exactly why the new engine appeals to me rather than endless screwing around trying to get the old one happy, and it still hating the E-10.

Brian H.
03-29-2018, 05:35 PM
For another point of reference, that machine appears *very* similar to my John Deere 826. It may actually be the same thing, I know that JD simply rebranded some such products. Anyways, the 826 has an 8 HP Tecumseh (and a 26" cut, thus 826), and I have seen several references in the past to repowering those with 10 or even 12 HP engines. I think that 8 HP is probably the smallest I'd look at for a new engine.

Machine
03-29-2018, 05:49 PM
...I have seen several references in the past to repowering those with 10 or even 12 HP engines. I think that 8 HP is probably the smallest I'd look at for a new engine.

+1. Plus I see the 8hp predator has a 1" dia shaft. Personally I'd go for 10hp, if possible.

gellfex
03-29-2018, 06:08 PM
+1. Plus I see the 8hp predator has a 1" dia shaft. Personally I'd go for 10hp, if possible.

Going up to six and a half from 5 is actually a bigger bump than from 8 to 10. Isn't doubling the horsepower the machine was built for risky? I think I'd rather have it stall than shear its pins right? Plus, by the time I purchase a 10 I'm halfway to the cost of a new modern machine even before I put in my time screwing with it.

At this point I need to identify the motor and what its hole pattern is.

sevenhills
03-29-2018, 07:58 PM
About a year ago a friend gave me an old 60s Kemp brand chipper/shredder. It had a 5hp Briggs on it but was problematic.
I replaced it with one of those $99 Harbor Freight Predator 6.5hp motors and it just made a good chipper great! So now it's made much better than the modern ones (unless you spend a lot to get a good one) and it starts on first pull and has more power. I've never bogged it down, just have to replace some cutter teeth occasionally.
As others have said the old stuff is light years better, simple and you can work on it.
My other 5hp shredder by MTD has a plastic hopper! I've broken it many times.
Imho that Predator is a good motor at a good price.

Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk

wmgeorge
03-30-2018, 08:00 AM
Going up to six and a half from 5 is actually a bigger bump than from 8 to 10. Isn't doubling the horsepower the machine was built for risky? I think I'd rather have it stall than shear its pins right? Plus, by the time I purchase a 10 I'm halfway to the cost of a new modern machine even before I put in my time screwing with it.

At this point I need to identify the motor and what its hole pattern is.

Correct if the old one ran fine for 30 years with a 5 why anything bigger? The 6.5 Hp engine from Harbor Freight is a clone of the Honda engine and all the Honda parts fit. What you need is bolt pattern and shaft size to be the same. Once in a while you will find that engine on Sale for $99! Just mark careful everything you take off, in fact I just take pictures with my smart phone. Get the old one off in one piece, measure and go get the new engine you can always return if its totally off, but I bet its not.
PS Regardless of what the book says, never any E10 or ethanol in any of my small engines.... ever.

Machine
03-30-2018, 08:45 AM
Going up to six and a half from 5 is actually a bigger bump than from 8 to 10. Isn't doubling the horsepower the machine was built for risky? I think I'd rather have it stall than shear its pins right? Plus, by the time I purchase a 10 I'm halfway to the cost of a new modern machine even before I put in my time screwing with it.

At this point I need to identify the motor and what its hole pattern is.

I didn't realize your machine was originally a 5 hp, the motor looks bigger than that in the pics. If so, 10hp might be too much...maybe.

The thing is that many pieces of equipment like this are often made with a collage of parts that are/were used in other machines with more or less power. For a snowblower, this may mean the gearbox, controls and drivetrain may be the same for models around 5-10hp. Only the augur cut width and impeller size vary. And that's what Brian H appeared to be alluding to in his post when he said "...that machine appears *very* similar to my John Deere 826. It may actually be the same thing, I know that JD simply rebranded some such products. Anyways, the 826 has an 8 HP Tecumseh (and a 26" cut, thus 826), and I have seen several references in the past to repowering those with 10 or even 12 HP engines. I think that 8 HP is probably the smallest I'd look at for a new engine."

As another example, I have an old Gravely brush mower which takes all types of attachments. Its original engine is 7.5hp. But these units are commonly repowered with modern 10-16 hp units and run very successfully with the newer and much more powerful engines. Another thing is that you don't even need to use all the power, it's just there as a reserve.

But really, if you have no real interest in the act of a motor swap or tinkering with an old snowblower, I agree the cost-return ratio may very well not be worth it at all. I like doing things like motor swaps or upgrades for fun, not just to save money. If you really don't care about those things and/or don't really have the skills or inclination for it, then I think hands down the cheapest and most practical path to go is to simply hire a pro to clean out the carb (or replace with new), tune it up and put some fresh gas in it. That's probably all it needs and it shouldn't cost more than $100-150 max. It'll probably run fine from then on as long as you drain all gas out the tank and carb at the end of each season.

Lastly, I see you live in NJ which has fairly mild winters. I had a 5hp snowblower (which also had a 5hp Tecumseh like you have) and I thought it was a waste of time. Too weak and ineffective for my 200ft driveway. I even added the rubber flap mod to the impeller to get it blow snow further. Still was a weak and ineffective snowblower. I sold it and got a snow plow blade for my tractor instead. Never looked back after that, plus one less motor to take care of every season and also can leave the snowplow blade outside in the summer so it doesn't take up space in my shed or garage like a snowblower would.

Just my $0.02, good luck.

PS>> Actually I just quickly looked up a coupla part numbers for a few components in the gearbox for your 524 snowthrower and also its big brother the 826 (which has an 8hp engine): The worm gear and gearbox case are the same for both models (p/n 5-7180 and p/n 19-6980). So as I suspected, there is significant overlap on transmission parts between the models. You can go to the Toro website here to compare different parts to get a sense of what the max engine size you might want to go with...

https://www.toro.com/en/parts?SearchText=&SelectedFilterByOption=equipment

gellfex
03-30-2018, 11:51 AM
Thanks Machine. The way I see it right now, the TIME+$=OUTCOME formula says repowering is the best plan rather than endless tinkering with the old engine to get it to produce at best 77% of the new $99 Predator 6.5hp. Especially when I wouldn't know how well I had repaired the original till it met a snowdrift! If the hole pattern doesn't match is there any problem just making a transition plate out of steel or 6061? Is there enough play in the belt for that? How is the belt tensioned? I assume the mounting bolts seat into weldnuts on the inside of the frame.

FWIW, I always close the gas valve and run the machine dry after every use, same with my generator.

Machine
03-30-2018, 12:23 PM
Yeah I personally would go for a motor swap, but then I like doing stuff like that. I wouldn't know if the Predator would swap easily without looking at both motors side by side (or seeing dimensional drawings of both). If the Predator motor output shaft sits a little lower than the Tecumseh, then you should be able to fab up a simple shim block to correct it. But if the Predator motor has a shaft that's higher (from the mounting base) than the original motor? That would probably be much more difficult to rectify for a swap. Of course the shaft diameter and length would also need to be the same. The link posted previously by someone else had shims for changing smaller shafts to 1" dia (and they were about $12).

The only other thing you may need to address is the air intake preheat system that is present on your old motor that the new one doesn't have. Personally I'd either adapt the old one to the new engine, or more probably I'd remove the air cleaner from the new engine and then fabricate a simple duct system that exchanged heat with the muffler (same as the old system). It could be dirt simple and still work, it sure isn't rocket science.

Lastly, if the carb is the only thing wrong with the existing motor, you can get a whole new carb quite cheap on ebay if you thought you could swap it out. You can get one for about $12 delivered, so assuming that's all that's wrong with the existing motor,this would probably be the cheapest option.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2334524.m570.l1313.TR5.TRC2.A0.H0.Xtecums eh+5hp+carb.TRS0&_nkw=tecumseh+5hp+carb&_sacat=0&LH_TitleDesc=0&_sop=10&_osacat=0&_odkw=kawasaki+H1+battery+%28tray%2Cbox%2Cholder%2 9

gellfex
03-30-2018, 12:40 PM
Now we're increasing the variables again! Damn. What about this from the Predator manual:

NOTICE: Do not clean using water.
The water will gradually enter the Engine
and cause rust damage.

Just covering their asses, or is this not good for a snowblower? There's no way to use it and then get all the water off!

RMinMN
03-30-2018, 01:52 PM
Now we're increasing the variables again! Damn. What about this from the Predator manual:

NOTICE: Do not clean using water.
The water will gradually enter the Engine
and cause rust damage.

Just covering their asses, or is this not good for a snowblower? There's no way to use it and then get all the water off!

They mean don't pressure wash it so it drives water where it wouldn't normally fall. It will be fine with a little snow melting on it.

CCWKen
03-30-2018, 03:14 PM
If you're going to fix it yourself, don't tell anyone here. Some have stated you need to pay $100 an hour to someone else to fix it or you face ridicule for being "cheap". :cool: Apparently, it doesn't matter that this site if for the do-it-self type of person. I think one person in particular is on the wrong forum. :rolleyes:

Glug
03-30-2018, 03:37 PM
NOTICE: Do not clean using water.
The water will gradually enter the Engine
and cause rust damage.


Maybe it has gasket non-sealing like the Precision Matthews lathe?

RMinMN
03-30-2018, 04:16 PM
Thanks Machine. The way I see it right now, the TIME+$=OUTCOME formula says repowering is the best plan rather than endless tinkering with the old engine to get it to produce at best 77% of the new $99 Predator 6.5hp. Especially when I wouldn't know how well I had repaired the original till it met a snowdrift! If the hole pattern doesn't match is there any problem just making a transition plate out of steel or 6061? Is there enough play in the belt for that? How is the belt tensioned? I assume the mounting bolts seat into weldnuts on the inside of the frame.

FWIW, I always close the gas valve and run the machine dry after every use, same with my generator.

The bolt holes are an exact match so you don't have to make any adapter. I don't think there are weldnuts, just bolts with the nuts on the top of the bolt. The belts are normally tightened with an idler pulley on a swinging mount. Most of the snowblowers, regardless of brand, are make in one of 2 factories. Look up MTD as they are one of the 2.

gellfex
03-31-2018, 02:08 PM
The bolt holes are an exact match so you don't have to make any adapter. I don't think there are weldnuts, just bolts with the nuts on the top of the bolt. The belts are normally tightened with an idler pulley on a swinging mount. Most of the snowblowers, regardless of brand, are make in one of 2 factories. Look up MTD as they are one of the 2.

Good info! I guess the intake preheat is the only tricky part, but we haven't even discussed the throttle and on-off control cables yet. I assume they're a solvable problem.

Sadly, I just saw that H-F excludes the Predator from it's coupons. :mad: Still, $120 ain't bad. Cost me more than that for the crappy tuneup.

RMinMN
03-31-2018, 05:21 PM
Good info! I guess the intake preheat is the only tricky part, but we haven't even discussed the throttle and on-off control cables yet. I assume they're a solvable problem.

Sadly, I just saw that H-F excludes the Predator from it's coupons. :mad: Still, $120 ain't bad. Cost me more than that for the crappy tuneup.

The 6.5 HP Predator engine is on sale this month for $99.99 inside the front cover of their catalog they just sent. Item #60363/69730 with the coupon # 36666135. The $20 difference will make changing out the controls worthwhile....if you even decide to do them. Once I start my snowblower and get the engine warmed it stays at full throttle until I'm ready to shut it off. The engine controls right where they are would be no problem to me.

3 Phase Lightbulb
04-02-2018, 09:46 AM
I like this snowblower :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0g4uUcw0sY

PStechPaul
04-02-2018, 03:48 PM
Here's a DIY electric snowblower that uses a 75 foot extension cord:
http://www.evalbum.com/758

One of many cordless electric versions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tM8gOYqttWQ

Solar powered tractor with snowblower:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqW8jOpUheY

Elec-Trak with snowblower:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQ1KafuDYVs

There are also many remote control snowblowers that are pretty cool.

EddyCurr
04-02-2018, 09:10 PM
Well, since this is another one of those HSM non-machining threads that refuses to go away quietly, I may as well jump in and keep it in play with some additional information which the OP may find helpful.


I had my old 24" Toro supposedly tuned up a few years ago and it was totally crapping out on me today, I think the carb was flooding.

... there's at least 2 more issues I didn't mention, the gear shifting has always seemed a problem, like no detectable differences among the forward gears, and it tends to ride up over the snow requiring a lot of effort pulling up on the handles.

I was just looking at the Predator engines from HF. For $100 (20% coupon) I can get a 6.5hp 212cc Predator. If that HP rating isn't BS that's a 30% gain, and a new engine without the E10 gas problem. Wouldn't going up to 8hp jeopardize the drive train with too much power? This is starting to look like a decent plan, assuming I can figure out the shifter issue.

https://i.imgur.com/cYzw19u.pngOn your machine, is the Toro Serial Plate still at the back on the 45º plate below the engine and between the handle bars? If so, this can help confirm whether the OEM engine is a Tecumseh.

If you decide to repower, I recommend that you check the diameter of the existing output shaft. You can do this easily by removing the red molded plastic belt cover mounted between the engine and the discharge chute - I think there is one self-tapping bolt on the L/R of the cover.

I think you will find that the 5HP Tecumseh has a 3/4" shaft and that the existing drive pulley will be a direct fit onto the 3/4" shaft of the 6.5HP Predator. A drawback to choosing a more powerful engine is that you'll need to source a suitable pulley to complement the larger dia output shaft.

Below is my 42yo Toro 724 snow thrower.

http://www.slalom4me.com/imaged_a01/jpg/OPEquip/Snowthrowers/Toro724/2018.04.02_Toro724_01.jpg

This is what the drivetrain in our machines looks like:

http://www.slalom4me.com/imaged_a01/jpg/OPEquip/Snowthrowers/Toro724/2017.12.07_Toro724_Trans_01.jpg

The chain (middle foreground) is driven by a shaft that a black rubber-coated wheel (center of photo) is mounted on.

When an operator at the controls releases the 'clutch' in a FORWARD 'gear', the black wheel moves into contact with the engine-driven disk/belt pulley at the middle right side of the photo. The engine turns the pulley disk, which turns the black wheel, which drives the chain, which turns the axle and wheels.

The 'gear' or speed of travel is determined by where the black wheel makes contact with the surface of the disk on the side of the belt pulley. If contact is made close to the hub, travel is slow; if contact takes place further out toward the outer circumference of the disk, travel is faster. It is easy to see the region where the black wheel makes contact w/ the pulley disk on the right - the worn surface is shiny & smooth, relative to the rougher surface further out.

When the clutch is released in a REVERSE 'gear', the black wheel moves into contact with the smaller steel disk at the middle left side of the photo. This disk is also driven by the belt pulley; but because it contacts the black disk on the opposite side, it turns the black disk in the reverse direction.

Incidently, the black wheel is a maintenance item. Over time, the rubber 'tire' wears and age-checks. In the photo, a crack can be seen close to where the black wheel is about to contact the pulley disk. If not addressed, the 'tire' will shed chunks and there will be trouble transmitting power. Inspect yours - replace if distressed; if it appears to be the original wheel, replace it as a preemptive measure so that there is one less thing to strand you come the next blizzard. (There is another issue with my transmission - a free donut to the first person to correctly identify the problem.)

A last comment. To get access to the drivetrain: position the snow thrower facing a wall and perhaps four feet away. Tip the machine forward onto the auger face (by lifting the handles) - have a helper the first time. The object is for the machine to be at 90º+ with the handles leaning against the wall - it should feel secure in this position. While it is better if the gas tank is NOT filled to the brim, note that the fuel cap is positioned at the rear of the tank to facilitate this maneuver. Yes, the fuel shut-off should be closed.

EddyCurr
04-02-2018, 09:19 PM
Good info! I guess the intake preheat is the only tricky part, I have checked unsuccessfully on HarborFreight and TractorSupply for variations of their engines that are similar to the "Winter Gas Engines" available in Canada from PrincessAuto (https://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/302cc-ohv-winter-gas-engine/A-p8449035e).

These are shrouded and fitted with controls that the other non-winter OPE engines do not receive. I also have reason to believe that they may be jetted for operation in colder temperatures than the Predator engines. IIRC, I have read about people rejetting Predators for better operating characteristics in winter conditions.

BTW - much earlier in this thread someone else encouraged you to get over to SnowblowerForum.com (http://www.snowblowerforum.com/forum/). You will be well-served by doing so, that forum is to snow as this forum is to metal.

EddyCurr
04-02-2018, 09:46 PM
If the hole pattern doesn't match is there any problem just making a transition plate out of steel or 6061? Is there enough play in the belt for that? How is the belt tensioned? I assume the mounting bolts seat into weldnuts on the inside of the frame.I believe both yours and my engines mount to stepped sheetmetal subplates that are in turn bolted to the top of the chassis. Bolts and nuts hold the plate to the chassis - these are visible in the photo of my machine's drivetrain - I don't know offhand how the engine attaches to the subplate, but suspect bolts and nuts are used here, too.

Check the mounting pattern of your engine against these dimensions below from HarborFreight. Download a manual for the engine of your choice: there are diagrams for the mounting hole pattern and the PTO layout on pgs 20/21 of the manual for the SKU 69730 6.5 HP engine - I expect manuals for other engines will have the same.

Mounting pattern 6.5 HP (212cc) OHV Engine (SKU: 60363, 69727 and 69730
6.40 in. L x 2.95 in. W - 3.17 in. W (162mm L x 75.5mm W - 80.5mm W)
8 HP (301cc) OHV Engine (SKU: 62553 and 62554)
7.70 in. L x 3.25 in. W - 3.78 in. W (195.5mm L x 82.5mm W - 96mm W)

Incidently. The dimensions above show two width values: two holes are elongated, the widths reflect the min-max C/C distances.

Willy
04-02-2018, 09:55 PM
................

I think you will find that the 5HP Tecumseh has a 3/4" shaft and that the existing drive pulley will be a direct fit onto the 3/4" shaft of the 6.5HP Predator. A drawback to choosing a more powerful engine is that you'll need to source a suitable pulley to complement the larger dia output shaft.

......................................


Just wondering Eddy what size the output shaft size is on your Tecumseh powered 724.
I have a very old and reliable 826 FMC Bolens , 8 horse Tecumseh with a 1" shaft size. The Toro 524,724, and 824 that I have had in the shop over the years shared this same shaft size. So unless there are variations that I'm not aware of you will need to sleeve the pulley if it came off of one of the Tecumsehs with the 1" shaft.

So back to a machining related topic. Not a big deal for the bunch here.:)

EddyCurr
04-02-2018, 10:25 PM
Just wondering Eddy what size the output shaft size is on your Tecumseh powered 724.
I have a very old and reliable 826 FMC Bolens , 8 horse Tecumseh with a 1" shaft size. The Toro 524,724, and 824 that I have had in the shop over the years shared this same shaft size. So unless there are variations that I'm not aware of you will need to sleeve the pulley if it came off of one of the Tecumsehs with the 1" shaft.I don't know and can not verify at the moment - but I believe the Tecumseh on my Toro 724 has a 1" OD shaft; if I'm right, we are in agreement.

I'll defer to your considerably greater knowledge/experience w/ small engines on the matter of the 5 HP Tecumseh mounted to the Toro 524 possessing a 1" OD shaft. I would have lost money in a bet, though, as I would have placed a wager on it being 3/4".

In the following video, an owner downgrades a Toro 724 (1") to a 6.5 HP Predator (3/4") and has to acquire an adapter sleeve to use the OEM pulley on the smaller shaft.


SNOWBLOWER Motor Swap; new Predator (Honda clone) motor to replace the old tecumseh on 1977 Toro 724 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDLDG9Phb2o)

Personally, I would have upgraded that 724 to the 8 HP Predator (1").

EddyCurr
04-02-2018, 10:29 PM
So back to a machining related topic. Not a big deal for the bunch here.:)Did you spot the secondary problem with the drive on my machine that I alluded to? If anyone is going to notice what it is, you will.

We could save this thread yet by getting back to something related to machining.

Willy
04-02-2018, 10:41 PM
Yes I would have lost that bet too as 3/4" is the standard for the engines up to 6.5 hp. Vertical shaft engines in this hp class I believe usually use a .875" shaft due to their use in rotary mowers. Sometimes even that isn't enough to fend off the abuse they endure.
Not sure why they went overboard on the shaft size for the Tecumseh five hp engines, standardization I assume.

Yes the 8 hp engine would be a shoe-in choice for that conversion you linked to.

I have two brand new 6.5 Honda clones sitting in the shop gathering dust for at least ten years. I'd love to chain couple them together and drive my snowblower but so far the old Tecumseh refuses to die. Gotta get more lax with my maintenance I guess.:)

Willy
04-02-2018, 10:54 PM
Did you spot the secondary problem with the drive on my machine that I alluded to? If anyone is going to notice what it is, you will.

We could save this thread yet by getting back to something related to machining.

https://i.imgur.com/drfseDj.jpg

By the way I don't think that's a crack on the friction wheel. It looks to be the split in the friction band material where it has been bonded to the hub.

EddyCurr
04-02-2018, 11:09 PM
Aye, you rolled up the rim and won. What flavour of donut do you prefer ?

Without a shear pin, the reverse disk still worked just less successfully. If you have seen this before, then you will be familiar with the taper the hub of the disk turns on the shaft - others can take note of how shiny the shaft looks between the disk hub and bearing to the left. A project for the off season is to remove the shaft and build the tapered portion back up to size.

I think we are on the same page regarding the friction band - rubber is split and will fail eventually.

Hey, you probably know about the acetone/transmission penetrating fluid. It didn't work at releasing my frozen wheel hubs from their axle stubs.

After trying a/t mix, a host of other fluids and liberal amounts of heat and increasing amounts of physical persuasion in an effert to remove the wheels, I ultimately resorted to partially dismounting the tires while still attached to the machine in order to install tubes - required because the OEM tires are both very badly cracked with no hope of holding air themselves.

RichR
04-02-2018, 11:13 PM
Did you spot the secondary problem with the drive on my machine that I alluded to? If anyone is going to notice what it is, you will.

We could save this thread yet by getting back to something related to machining.

There's what appears to be a second drive disk to the left of the rubber drive wheel, used for reverse I think. I looks like it's cockeyed and will
wobble when it's turning. Do I get the donut?

Willy
04-02-2018, 11:19 PM
Eddy I think the friction material is not an endless ring when new, it is a linear piece cut to the correct length and then bonded onto the drive hub.
It looks just like mine has for decades.
As long as the material is not overly worn or chunked out due dry rot or chemical exposure it will probably last you a long time yet. Clean and dry is the key here and your looks that way from where I sit.

Edited to add: Get your own donuts Rich.:)

RichR
04-02-2018, 11:43 PM
... Edited to add: Get your own donuts Rich.:)

Seeing how you beat me to the correct answer, I guess I'll have to.

Willy
04-03-2018, 12:01 AM
And seeing how Eddy's buying...I'll share.:)
But I get the first Boston creme one, okay?

gellfex
09-22-2018, 04:29 PM
So I finally started this engine swap, and hit my 1st road bump. The old shaft is 1" with a 1/4" key and the Predator is 3/4. What's the best way to firmly bush this double pulley sheave on? Making a slotted bushing with a 1/4 x 3/8 key seems too obvious even thought I'd probably not hesitate if it were a fractional HP electric. Like I said up top, I'm not an engine guy.

Willy
09-22-2018, 04:53 PM
I believe that I have already mentioned the shaft size difference several times in this thread as early as in post 64 but I know it's been a while so I'm sure it was overlooked.
I left a link in that post to an adapter or as mentioned, you could probably make your own.

gellfex
09-22-2018, 05:57 PM
Thanks Willie, it has been a while when there was a lot of posts. So the answer is a stepped key and a slotted sleeve?

Willy
09-22-2018, 06:41 PM
Yes apparently that seems to be the fix. Not sure what you have available but at 20 bucks for each plus shipping I presume, it may be an incentive to make your own.
If I remember correctly, and it has been a while like you say, I just grabbed that link from post 64 at random so you may find a lower cost option if you don't have the capability to make those pieces in your shop. either way it's probably not going to slow the project down too much. There is also the option of making an entirely new pulley, however that would be more work and would entail broaching the pulley's internal keyway.

gellfex
09-22-2018, 10:39 PM
Hmmm. Does the key need to be hardened? I don't believe I have any 1 inch bar stock either. By the time I order stock for either of those pieces it may not be worth it to make them instead of ordering them.

Also, what you linked to was a bushing/sleeve for a 7/8 shaft, and the Predator has a 3/4. Can the stepped key span that gap without issue?

Willy
09-22-2018, 10:48 PM
Hmmm. Does the key need to be hardened? I don't believe I have any 1 inch bar stock either. By the time I order stock for either of those pieces it may not be worth it to make them instead of ordering them.

Also, what you linked to was a bushing/sleeve for a 7/8 shaft, and the Predator has a 3/4. Can the stepped key span that gap without issue?

I was just looking for another more reasonably priced source for you as you posted. Sorry that it was for a 7/8 shaft. That would be for a vertical shaft mower engine as they do have a larger shaft due to the rough service they see.

At any rate I did find an option on Ebay that would be much less. $19.95 for a piece of stepped keyway from my other link seems a little rich.

How does $12.74 for both pieces sound?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-4-to-1-inch-w-Step-Key-Gas-Engine-Pulley-Crank-Shaft-Sleeve-Adapter-Predator-/182717336920

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k59mjSxFeg (https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-4-to-1-inch-w-Step-Key-Gas-Engine-Pulley-Crank-Shaft-Sleeve-Adapter-Predator-/182717336920)

gellfex
09-22-2018, 11:59 PM
How does $12.74 for both pieces sound?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-4-to-1-inch-w-Step-Key-Gas-Engine-Pulley-Crank-Shaft-Sleeve-Adapter-Predator-/182717336920
(https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-4-to-1-inch-w-Step-Key-Gas-Engine-Pulley-Crank-Shaft-Sleeve-Adapter-Predator-/182717336920)

Sounds awesome! Thanks so much for doing that legwork, I would have done it but we had dinner guests. At least I have time to order, no snow expected here for a while! Tell an "engine stupid" something, is it ok to run this unit with no load or should I put on a flywheel of some kind if I want to test it?

Willy
09-23-2018, 12:51 AM
It would be a great idea to test the engine and pulley/drivetrain/ combination as installed on the snowblower, no harm done whatsoever.
I would encourage you actually to give it a few "dry runs" in order to check it all out just to make sure pulleys and belts are aligned etc. You won't be able to apply a full load to the unit but even turning the impeller/auger/drive systems will place some load on the unit and will confirm functionality. You'll be 98% there when the snow flies and any tweaks to the system at that point will only be minor.

Keep us posted of the progress, hopefully it will still be a while before you actually need it.:)

Edited to add:
Also, if I'm reading your post right, yes no harm will be done in running the engine on the bench if you like. As above, probably a good idea if for nothing else than to familiarize yourself with the engine.

gellfex
09-23-2018, 01:13 AM
Yes, I meant to test it with nothing at all on the motor shaft while I'm waiting for the adapter hardware to come in the mail. I can attach the throttle and switch. Here's a snowblower "culture" question: does anyone actually use the deadman switch on the handle or is it like blade covers on tablesaws and removed immediately. I have mine taped, gives my hand fatigue keeping that sucker gripped.

gellfex
09-24-2018, 01:39 PM
Hey, should I start a new "project thread" on repowering this or just keep posting here?

The next issue is the intake prewarmer, doesn't look very doable. That plastic housing is integral to the carb, and the intake is up from the bottom back of the plastic filter housing. The only thing that comes to me is a computer type heat pipe from a heat sink on the muffler to a vaned radiator over that intake or an intake modded onto the plastic cover with the bottom intakes blocked off.

Oh, and any ideas about what to do with the oil drain plug you can see at the bottom of the engine? I I was going to put a long nipple on it so it can be drained, but it appears to be a strange thread, about 10mm but not 10mm course, or an NPT pipe thread. Is it a metric pipe thread?

https://i.imgur.com/ds5glOA.png

https://i.imgur.com/w6wKktD.png

Puckdropper
09-24-2018, 06:27 PM
I think a new thread would work great. It's the kind of project someone else might benefit directly from. (I've been thinking about doing it to mine.)

Willy
09-24-2018, 09:29 PM
Yes, I meant to test it with nothing at all on the motor shaft while I'm waiting for the adapter hardware to come in the mail. I can attach the throttle and switch. Here's a snowblower "culture" question: does anyone actually use the deadman switch on the handle or is it like blade covers on tablesaws and removed immediately. I have mine taped, gives my hand fatigue keeping that sucker gripped.

As far as using the deadman switch, this is something only you can answer. Are you prone to poking around in the chute or auger housing if things get plugged, or are you more likely to shut the blower down first in order to clean it out? Are there going to be others around when clearing snow, others that might approach the snowblower if left unattended while it is running? Most importantly are you the only one that will be using the snowblower since it is you that made the decision to disable this feature. Like I say it's your decision as long as you're comfortable with it.

Personally I disabled mine as I am comfortable with that choice, and it is a time saver. But I do respect the reason why it was there and I don't get silly with the man-eating part of the machine. If there's something in there that needs my involvement I won't hesitate to shut it off first.




Hey, should I start a new "project thread" on repowering this or just keep posting here?

The next issue is the intake prewarmer, doesn't look very doable. That plastic housing is integral to the carb, and the intake is up from the bottom back of the plastic filter housing. The only thing that comes to me is a computer type heat pipe from a heat sink on the muffler to a vaned radiator over that intake or an intake modded onto the plastic cover with the bottom intakes blocked off.

Oh, and any ideas about what to do with the oil drain plug you can see at the bottom of the engine? I I was going to put a long nipple on it so it can be drained, but it appears to be a strange thread, about 10mm but not 10mm course, or an NPT pipe thread. Is it a metric pipe thread?


Hey it's your party, if you want to start another thread or continue here it's all up to you.:)
This one does have some continuity already but if you want to refocus on certain aspects of the project by all means start another thread.

You may have to redirect some the engine's waste heat from either the hot side of the cooling air or the muffler itself in order to prevent carb icing. Some sort of ducting or shielding setup that provides warm dry air to the air cleaner will make things much more user friendly. Being resourceful here will be a big plus as it's not always easy to affix something to a small single cylinder engine due to the constant vibration. I have found springs beneficial in these situations but keep an open mind. Sometimes simplicity is you friend and a short piece of lightweight ducting along with a shield to keep cold snow laden air away from the air intake is all you need.

The drain plug should be 10mm x 1.25, at least it is on some of the Honda and Honda clone engines I have in that size range. If it's not 10mm x 1.25 then it could very well be 1/4 BSP, but I believe that size is usually reserved for the slightly larger engines.
Let me know what you find as I don't have access to the HF line of predator engines.

dave_r
09-25-2018, 01:41 AM
I think my Honda GX160 had a 10mm drain, I made an extension for the drain from some thick-wall tubing, so it screwed into the engine, and the original plug screwed into the end of the tube.

Puckdropper
09-25-2018, 04:15 AM
One thing I found interesting about snow blower engines was they usually didn't have air filters. I guess the theory was the snow would clog a filter and since they're less likely to be running over loose dirt they're not as badly needed.

Willy
09-25-2018, 11:42 AM
One thing I found interesting about snow blower engines was they usually didn't have air filters. I guess the theory was the snow would clog a filter and since they're less likely to be running over loose dirt they're not as badly needed.

Yup, same as a lot of boat motors, if it's dusty while doing either you may want to change your game plan.:)

gellfex
09-25-2018, 01:21 PM
Well, given the configuration of filter housing and exhaust that I have, what's a good plan? One that occurred to me is to block the bottom ports on the filter housing, put a hole in the top, and run a 2"x1" aluminum tube over on top of the muffler with some heat transfer grease.

https://i.imgur.com/1sXgwAC.png

Willy
09-27-2018, 07:01 AM
Well, given the configuration of filter housing and exhaust that I have, what's a good plan? One that occurred to me is to block the bottom ports on the filter housing, put a hole in the top, and run a 2"x1" aluminum tube over on top of the muffler with some heat transfer grease.



Looks like a great start.
I don't believe a heat transfer paste would be required, plenty of hot air coming off of the muffler/heat shield. Just drill some holes into the aluminum tube so that that the carb is allowed to draw the warm air in.

gellfex
09-27-2018, 12:30 PM
Looks like a great start.
I don't believe a heat transfer paste would be required, plenty of hot air coming off of the muffler/heat shield. Just drill some holes into the aluminum tube so that that the carb is allowed to draw the warm air in.

Huh. It seemed better to me to heat the tube and pull the air through it rather than try and capture the ambient heated air from the muffler that could be blown away in the breeze.

Willy
09-27-2018, 05:31 PM
Huh. It seemed better to me to heat the tube and pull the air through it rather than try and capture the ambient heated air from the muffler that could be blown away in the breeze.

A small tin cover over the heat shield and around a tube that is drilled on both sides that end should provide plenty of the warm air needed to prevent carb icing. You want to draw from that hot boundary lay of air surrounding the muffler/heat shield area.
Don't forget the muffler already has a heat shield around it so using heat transfer paste at this juncture will likely provide insufficient heat through direct contact. Removing the factory heat shield and applying the paste directly between the aluminum tube and the muffler itself will probably burn the heat transfer paste since the muffler's running temperature will easily go to well over 600°F.

I think the best thermal paste I've seen has a maximum operating temp of about 360°C which doesn't leave much leeway.

gellfex
09-27-2018, 05:39 PM
A small tin cover over the heat shield and around a tube that is drilled on both sides that end should provide plenty of the warm air needed to prevent carb icing.

Why not actually take it from inside the heat shield? Would it get exhaust too?

Willy
09-27-2018, 05:48 PM
This is another option, it all depends on how much fabrication you are comfortable with and the effort/benefit ratio.
Exhaust gases are blown well clear of the muffler's outlet, very little if any would be drawn in. Any that does will by your impromptu EGR system.:)

gellfex
09-27-2018, 05:56 PM
This is another option, it all depends on how much fabrication you are comfortable with and the effort/benefit ratio.
Exhaust gases are blown well clear of the muffler's outlet, very little if any would be drawn in. Any that does will by your impromptu EGR system.:)

Doing housing to housing seems easy, perhaps with some galvanized flexible electrical duct and a couple of box connectors. What radius do you suppose is required? The existing intakes look pretty small, like perhaps less than a 1" dia equivalent. Seems like the biggest risk is melting the intake housing!

gellfex
10-03-2018, 06:59 PM
Well, it's mostly done! I could blow snow tomorrow. That Predator started on the 1st pull! I even fixed the gearshift that has been messed up since my dad gave it to me ages ago. Only issues are a prewarmer and possibly replacing the jet with slightly larger or adjustable. Both are debated on Snowblowerforums, some guys find stock fine, others find the mix too lean. A cowling to keep snow and ice off the throttle linkages is also a good idea. Some on the site also say these 212cc engines often test out far higher than the rated 6.5hp. Cool.

Now that I'm getting into it, I've got to scrape rust and repaint, and see to the auger worm gear lubrication. I don't think the guys I paid a few years ago did anything at all, the wheel drive gears were dry as a bone. Live and learn.

Willy
10-03-2018, 07:57 PM
Great, let it snow let it snow...but only on your driveway, I doubt anyone else is looking forward to winter just yet.:)

Jetting is largely dependent in intake air temp. Emissions compliance will likely mean that it is jetted on the lean side and for relatively benign temperatures. If your air inlet temperature is reasonably warm you'll likely be okay with stock jetting, however this will be largely dependent on not only the degree (no pun intended) that you can warm up the inlet air but also on ambient temps.
An adjustable main jet is of course nice if you need it, and as you likely already know they are available.
Once it's set you will likely not need to readjust it for a long time. I can't remember the last time I touched my snowblower's carb settings.

gellfex
10-03-2018, 08:47 PM
Great, let it snow let it snow...but only on your driveway, I doubt anyone else is looking forward to winter just yet.:)
An adjustable main jet is of course nice if you need it, and as you likely already know they are available.
Once it's set you will likely not need to readjust it for a long time. I can't remember the last time I touched my snowblower's carb settings.

Apparently there's a member of that forum who's a retired machinist selling them on Ebay. Seems like a good solution, provided I can figure out when it's happy. As you say, there's a number of variables, and if I add a carb preheat housing, that will change the balance. The stock is jet is 0.028 and anecdotally many make it 0.30-0.034 to account for denser cold air.

Arcane
10-03-2018, 10:07 PM
Apparently there's a member of that forum who's a retired machinist selling them on Ebay. Seems like a good solution, provided I can figure out when it's happy. As you say, there's a number of variables, and if I add a carb preheat housing, that will change the balance. The stock is jet is 0.028 and anecdotally many make it 0.30-0.034 to account for denser cold air.

If you do decide to drill out your jet, just remember that a small increase in diameter makes a large increase in cross sectional area of the jet and area is what you use to calculate the % of flow increase.

Machine
10-04-2018, 07:48 AM
Well, given the configuration of filter housing and exhaust that I have, what's a good plan? One that occurred to me is to block the bottom ports on the filter housing, put a hole in the top, and run a 2"x1" aluminum tube over on top of the muffler with some heat transfer grease. https://i.imgur.com/1sXgwAC.png

Basic design looks good, although I would eliminate all plastics and the foam filter. And as others have mentioned, I wouldn't bother with conductive grease; it'll just get burned off anyway. Not sure I would use aluminum though. It might actually get hot enough on the muffler side to bring it close to its melting point (or at least to the point where it loses a lot of strength where it connects to the muffler, possibly leading to cracks or breaks). I'd use stainless sheet metal if you can find scraps (mild steel will rust badly on the hot side, allowing rusty particles to be ingested over time because the air filter has been removed).

Also, I would install a simple flapper valve with a manually adjustable knob (or better yet, remote cable actuated) on the new duct between the muffler and the carb intake with a fresh air (unheated) redirect port. That way you can modulate how much hot air goes into the carb. That's how my old snowblower worked and I believe is a common design feature (probably included on your old motor even?). This is also why most aircraft also have fully adjustable anti-icing systems. You only want the ability to use preheated intake air in the event there are icing conditions. Icing conditions won't always exist every single time you use it. Plus, you don't want all of the intake air to be fully preheated as you will lose power that way. You only want as much preheat as you need to preclude icing. The colder and denser the air, the more power the engine will produce (that's why high performance cars have intercoolers). And from my experience with my old 5hp snowblower, power is everything in terms of acceptable performance - especially if you will mostly be dealing with wettish, heavier snow common to the mid-northeast USA.

Arcane
10-04-2018, 04:51 PM
When I was a kid on the farm the gas engines both big and small had no provisions for heated air to the carb and we never experienced any problems with them. I had a small B&S engine on my old Toro Snow hound and it had an air filter and no provisions for preheated air and I never experienced any problems with it. Why not see if you actually need a heated air intake before you futz around making one? If you find you do need one, I would suggest using the flexible hose that was used on old cars between the exhaust heat stove and the air filter.

DS_park
10-04-2018, 09:42 PM
When I was a kid on the farm the gas engines both big and small had no provisions for heated air to the carb and we never experienced any problems with them. I had a small B&S engine on my old Toro Snow hound and it had an air filter and no provisions for preheated air and I never experienced any problems with it. Why not see if you actually need a heated air intake before you futz around making one? If you find you do need one, I would suggest using the flexible hose that was used on old cars between the exhaust heat stove and the air filter.

+1 on above. Seems like a lot of work for preheat you may never need. Usually snow blowing happens below freezing so carb icing is not as prevalent.

Have a similar 5hp Tecumseh powered blower and the only time I had icing in the carb was when I was running without the shroud over the carb and pulling powdered snow into the carb. Original engine is abrasively noisy (even with ear muffs), it guzzles fuel, and the exhaust is eye watering pungent. However it has never let me down.

I do have one of those honda clone in a box engines myself. Been tempted to repower for less noise and fumes alone. Will be watching to see how you do.

DS_park
10-04-2018, 09:43 PM
Duplicate of #124.

Willy
10-04-2018, 10:53 PM
I have to agree with Arcane as well in regard to not fixing something that isn't broken. However cool humid conditions are a recipe for carb icing and I would think the OP's location would include those more than the cold dry air most prevalent in Arcane's location.

The Tecumseh snow blower engines were designed from the start as a purpose built snow engine. A sheet metal shroud enclosed the muffler and carburetor thus helping shield the intake air from snow ingestion, plus no air cleaner element on most that I've seen.
More importantly though was the location of the exhaust and intake ports in the cylinder block. Conventional engine design places the intake port and carburetor closer to the flywheel/cooling fan end of the engine and the exhaust port to the outside PTO end. Tecumseh snow engines have a reversed port location compared to conventional engines thus giving them the benefit of ingesting cooling air that has been previously warmed by the exhaust port and muffler's placement upstream of the carb.

gellfex
10-05-2018, 12:36 PM
Also, I would install a simple flapper valve with a manually adjustable knob (or better yet, remote cable actuated) on the new duct between the muffler and the carb intake with a fresh air (unheated) redirect port.

There's a thread on Snowblowerforums about this specifically, where the guy who makes the adjustable jet made a direct duct with a adjustable port, and could play around with using it to optimize the richness of the air mix. But it seems the adjustable carb jet is probably a better way. Given that I usually wait for a storm to blow over before getting out there, I may not need any heating if I get the adjustable jet. Enough members of that forum with Predators have not done much mods that I will wait and see.

Puckdropper
01-15-2019, 01:39 PM
Did the new engine fit the old bolt holes? I'm looking at getting this going again now that other projects have been completed (and it snowed) and my newer MTD is broken due to a failed transmission.

Did you wind up needing the adapter from eBay?

Thanks.

gellfex
01-15-2019, 01:46 PM
Did the new engine fit the old bolt holes? I'm looking at getting this going again now that other projects have been completed (and it snowed) and my newer MTD is broken due to a failed transmission.

Did you wind up needing the adapter from eBay?

Thanks.

Yes, it fit perfectly, but I needed longer bolts, a shaft adapter sleeve and an oil drain extension hose, the drain is a wacky 10mm fine thread. I also got an adjustable carb nozzle so I can dial in the mix. I've not done any preheat or linkage shielding, and we've not had a storm yet.