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loose nut
04-17-2018, 06:54 PM
I need some small (3/64 and 5/64 diam. shanks) round head "snap" solid copper rivets, the kind used in models like trains and steam engines etc. These sizes are scares, as in non-existent in NA so I looked to Britain. Few places sold both sizes, one for a resolvable price of 10LBs for 200 of each sizes. Now for the rest of the story. Almost 40 LBs to mail them here, there is a remote location charge. I live halfway between Toronto and Detroit, not exactly remote from anywhere. Another place wanted almost 40 LBs just for the same number of rivets, how do they stay in business. Either the British are not aware of international business or have maybe given up on trading offshore. I will make my own before paying those rates.

gambler
04-17-2018, 07:13 PM
have a friendly limey buy them for you and send them to you the slow way.:)

Hopefuldave
04-17-2018, 07:14 PM
Postage even inside the UK can vary a lot, parcels that are bigger/heavier than will go in the postman's over-shoulder bag get quite expensive - where are the sellers located, it may work out cheaper to get a friendly fellow member to split the package and post them in a few padded envelopes...?
A 1-pound parcel to the USA should be 8.50, 2-pound about 13.50 UKP, how much do the rivets weight, roughly? Delivery is usually 5 - 7 working days and there's free insurance up to 20.

Dave H. (the other one) - located in England ;)

reggie_obe
04-17-2018, 07:27 PM
Why not seize the opportunity and manufacture them or have them manufactured and resell them to the model engineering market?

loose nut
04-17-2018, 07:49 PM
have a friendly limey buy them for you and send them to you the slow way.:)

I'm afraid I don't know any:D I also don't know anybody that lives in Britain.


Postage even inside the UK can vary a lot, parcels that are bigger/heavier than will go in the postman's over-shoulder bag get quite expensive - where are the sellers located, it may work out cheaper to get a friendly fellow member to split the package and post them in a few padded envelopes...?
A 1-pound parcel to the USA should be 8.50, 2-pound about 13.50 UKP, how much do the rivets weight, roughly? Delivery is usually 5 - 7 working days and there's free insurance up to 20.

Dave H. (the other one) - located in England ;)

This package would be a small envelope and weight a couple of OZ. That is why I don't understand the outrageous postage. On top of that there is the extreme difference in cost for the same items at difference places.

gambler
04-17-2018, 08:07 PM
I'm afraid I don't know any:D I also don't know anybody that lives in Britain.



This package would be a small envelope and weight a couple of OZ. That is why I don't understand the outrageous postage. On top of that there is the extreme difference in cost for the same items at difference places.

aren't you due for a vacation, how about sun soaked england? and as a bonus you can buy your rivets.
seriously, someone on this forum could probably help you.

Baz
04-17-2018, 08:12 PM
It works the other way too, except we have to accept a 1:1 'exchange rate' on the item to start with, then the extortionate postage gets lumped on top, then tax go on both sometimes.

gambler
04-17-2018, 08:22 PM
It works the other way too, except we have to accept a 1:1 'exchange rate' on the item to start with, then the extortionate postage gets lumped on top, then tax go on both sometimes.

you guys need to work something out.

mygrizzly1022
04-17-2018, 10:16 PM
https://www.amazon.ca/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=solid+copper+rivets&tag=googcana-20&index=aps&hvadid=230011066279&hvpos=1t1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=6582841034544977934&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9001101&hvtargid=kwd-299871589128&ref=pd_sl_c2dkqz63r_b

Richard P Wilson
04-18-2018, 02:28 AM
Tell me exactly what you want, and the place that was going to do them for 10, and your address. Can't see that posting a few rivets will cost me very much, in the interests of UK/US harmony. Those small 64ths size rivets aren't that common even over here.

philbur
04-18-2018, 03:04 AM
And you can buy a couple of drill bits from China for 0.99 with FREE POSTAGE, how does that work?

Phil

Mike Burch
04-18-2018, 06:11 AM
If you think the British postal rates are high, try getting something sent from the USA to New Zealand.

I have given up buying anything from America—even if the vendor is willing to deal with foreigners, the freight cost just makes it impossible.

MrFluffy
04-18-2018, 06:58 AM
The problem with dealing with Britain and smaller sellers a lot of the time is international sales don't even seem to come on their radar. Most place's dont seem to offer a international shipping price, or if they do, its completely outrageous. I've often found that if I contact the company with the outrageous prices its a standard charge they just put on without pricing the shipment as a coverall because they don't anticipate anyone buying internationally. The ones that don't list international ship sometimes you can contact and they just haven't bothered listing it as a option but can do a cardholder not present and put it in a box easily anyway.
There are a few rare occasions that the seller won't ship international, in which case I have the option to get the item sent to a relative there and send it over to me on arrival but mostly I just take my business elsewhere.

Also if its ebay transaction, its even worse, ebay will impose the global shipping handling process + minimum fee going from Britain to Europe, and if its not GS listed, experience has suggested that its a far better idea to just buy elsewhere than get into all that messaging business. If its something I absolutely can only source in the UK, I just get a relative to send it, but mostly I will work round things, redrill to more standard sizes and threads etc. Its just easier than owing them favours at the end of the day. It depends on the level of pain the workaround vs the pain of the transaction.

The above is just my own personal experience, over about 15 years of living outside the UK but occasionally having to deal with buying engineer stuff as a private buyer.
Sure one of the UK chaps or chapesses here will be happy to step in and repost it.

MrFluffy
04-18-2018, 07:00 AM
And you can buy a couple of drill bits from China for 0.99 with FREE POSTAGE, how does that work?

Phil

And amazingly, its usually quicker to arrive from China than buying from the UK and ebay's GSP shipping!

Peter S
04-18-2018, 08:45 AM
If you think the British postal rates are high, try getting something sent from the USA to New Zealand.

I have given up buying anything from America—even if the vendor is willing to deal with foreigners, the freight cost just makes it impossible.

Mike,

One option is to use YouShop which is part of NZ Post. NZ Post has YouShop depots in the UK, USA and maybe other places. You give the US seller the USA YouShop address, so you only pay local post (and ask them to send it by US Post at the economical option). Sometimes (e.g. book sellers) have free post within the US.

Then NZ Post consolidates everyone's parcels and ships them to NZ. Of course you have to pay for this too, but the prices are not too bad. A bit slower too.

BTW, you can get YouShop to consolidate your parcels in the US if you order from several sellers. You save money on the shipping, but beware as you may have to pay GST in NZ if the value gets too high.

I have used YouShop a few times for 2nd hand books and it is easy to use and worked well. FWIW it includes tracking too.

Actually, most booksellers aren't too bad (except on large books) as they use the postal service, but some other places (e.g. car parts) only offer an expensive courier option. I think YouShop could be useful on such items.

Apart from speed, I think the expensive courier options offer the seller some recourse in case the item is damaged or lost. That seems to be why they don't offer cheaper options. And the fact that most people can't bear to wait more than a day or two...

Mcgyver
04-18-2018, 08:56 AM
Can't see that posting a few rivets will cost me very much, in the interests of UK/US harmony.

even better, he's in Canada.....just one subject helping another :)


And you can buy a couple of drill bits from China for 0.99 with FREE POSTAGE, how does that work?

Phil

its a result of the Universal Postal Union and that the China gov essentially picks up the cost of the first leg to gain market share. This is a major and legitimate beef on behalf of business in the rest of the world, that their government ends up delivery the China competitions product essentially for free

loose nut
04-18-2018, 11:20 AM
aren't you due for a vacation, how about sun soaked england? and as a bonus you can buy your rivets.
seriously, someone on this forum could probably help you.

I'm retired. Every day is a Saturday but they take your vacations days away.
I think flying to Britain might cost a wee bit more then the post.

BCRider
04-18-2018, 11:47 AM
https://www.amazon.ca/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=solid+copper+rivets&tag=googcana-20&index=aps&hvadid=230011066279&hvpos=1t1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=6582841034544977934&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9001101&hvtargid=kwd-299871589128&ref=pd_sl_c2dkqz63r_b

This post seems to have been forgotten amongst all the hand wringing over postage rates. What about the rivets in that link loose nut?

Richard P Wilson
04-18-2018, 11:52 AM
I'm retired. Every day is a Saturday but they take your vacations days away.
I think flying to Britain might cost a wee bit more then the post.

See Post 10, I'm offering to help out.

DR
04-18-2018, 12:23 PM
Have you tried all the usual rivet outfits that come up when Googling on "copper rivets"? Assuming all NA sources have been exhausted...how about making them?

Years ago I recall making round head brass rivets when I couldn't quickly lay my hands on some. Make a die of a couple pieces of steel clamped together in a vise, drill a blind body diameter hole (3/64 or 5/64 in this case) on the center line between the pieces. Cut short lengths of annealed copper wire of the body diameter, clamp wire pieces in the die. Press on the protruding end of the wire to form the round head with a rivet setting die.

With practice you can establish the correct amount of wire protruding up out of the die. As I remember the heads weren't factory perfect, still good enough for my use at the time.

I've also machined custom rivets for special applications where a common rivet wouldn't do it.

flylo
04-18-2018, 12:42 PM
No idea if http://www.securitmetalproducts.com/ has what you need but if you can look & find it & buy it I'll be glad to pick it up & mail it or they might as they're great people. Let me know, Thanks!

old mart
04-18-2018, 01:32 PM
Postage and packing from the USA to the UK is easily the worlds most expensive, I was forced to pay 30 postage for a piece of photographic equipment that weighed about 1 ounce as there was no other source.

loose nut
04-18-2018, 02:12 PM
No idea if http://www.securitmetalproducts.com/ has what you need but if you can look & find it & buy it I'll be glad to pick it up & mail it or they might as they're great people. Let me know, Thanks!

They look like a manufacturer not a retailer. I wouldn't think they would want to bother with a couple of hundred rivets, I could be wrong. I couldn't find any reference to sizes on their website.

Some time back I sent queries to several rivet distributors in the US and Canada, Most didn't reply and the one that did said they didn't sell that size. I took the size info right out of there online catalogue. These companies want to sell you 10,000 rivets and cannot be bothered with 200.

I will be at NAMES this weekend and will look there but I don't think there are any sellers of rivets there which is exactly the market for these items. One advantage the British have over us is as the home of Model Engineering IE: making scale model of old crap, they do have access to most of the world supply of this kind of "stuff".

wombat2go
04-18-2018, 02:13 PM
I have been buying items from RDGtools.co.uk for my SB9 ( eg metric tools, QCTP and digital indicator.)
So far the total prices including shipping to Michigan have been similar to or less than from USA sources.

But they only have model engineer tools, not hardware.

loose nut
04-18-2018, 02:18 PM
See Post 10, I'm offering to help out.

Thanks for the offer Richard but for now I think I will just make them.

I have an electric punch press that I use to close over the second head when riveting parts together (it works really well IF you get it set up right) so with some work I should be able to make tooling to form the heads on wire. Basically what DR said but under power. I have been contemplating doing this for a long time so maybe this the kick in the butt I need. Now getting solid copper wire of the right gauge will be the real trick.

Of course if I fail miserably I may send you a message.

reggie_obe
04-18-2018, 02:25 PM
Nothing quite as small as you're looking for, but close... https://www.hansonrivet.com/rivets/solid-rivets/commercial-solid-rivets/

Dan Dubeau
04-18-2018, 02:55 PM
Thanks for the offer Richard but for now I think I will just make them.

I have an electric punch press that I use to close over the second head when riveting parts together (it works really well IF you get it set up right) so with some work I should be able to make tooling to form the heads on wire. Basically what DR said but under power. I have been contemplating doing this for a long time so maybe this the kick in the butt I need. Now getting solid copper wire of the right gauge will be the real trick.

Of course if I fail miserably I may send you a message.

That's how this "hobby" works. Now you need to build a wire drawing machine, to get the size you need. It's a vicious cycle

ammcoman2
04-18-2018, 06:31 PM
I have purchased rivets from this company: http://www.americanmodeleng.com/id55.html Only 1/16" copper and steel so far but will soon need some 3/32".

Happy customer.

Geoff

flylo
04-18-2018, 07:44 PM
They look like a manufacturer not a retailer. I wouldn't think they would want to bother with a couple of hundred rivets, I could be wrong. I couldn't find any reference to sizes on their website.

Some time back I sent queries to several rivet distributors in the US and Canada, Most didn't reply and the one that did said they didn't sell that size. I took the size info right out of there online catalogue. These companies want to sell you 10,000 rivets and cannot be bothered with 200.

I will be at NAMES this weekend and will look there but I don't think there are any sellers of rivets there which is exactly the market for these items. One advantage the British have over us is as the home of Model Engineering IE: making scale model of old crap, they do have access to most of the world supply of this kind of "stuff".

I know the owner so if they did have it let me know.

loose nut
04-19-2018, 08:28 AM
Nothing quite as small as you're looking for, but close... https://www.hansonrivet.com/rivets/solid-rivets/commercial-solid-rivets/


I have purchased rivets from this company: http://www.americanmodeleng.com/id55.html Only 1/16" copper and steel so far but will soon need some 3/32".

Happy customer.

Geoff

Neither of those companies have the sizes I need. Thanks.

CCWKen
04-19-2018, 09:02 AM
Tell me exactly what you want, and the place that was going to do them for 10, and your address. Can't see that posting a few rivets will cost me very much, in the interests of UK/US harmony. Those small 64ths size rivets aren't that common even over here.
When did Canada become part of the US? :confused:

wdtom44
04-19-2018, 09:41 AM
Reading through some of the posts I see you are thinking of making the rivets. Can you use solid electrical wire? Available in different gauges and not expensive for a few feet you would need for quite a few rivets.

softtail
04-19-2018, 10:31 AM
I have wondered the same thing as the OP when dealing with Boxford a number of years ago. They wanted certified payment in Pounds via mail and said it would take six weeks to get my parts. Got me wondering if the ship would go down rounding Cape Horn....

But I see items offered on Ebay shipping from the UK that have very reasonable shipping, so must be possible...

boslab
04-19-2018, 11:34 AM
What size and quantity do yo need?
Mark
(Prisoner of the U.K.)

Richard P Wilson
04-19-2018, 11:46 AM
When did Canada become part of the US? :confused:

OK, my mistake. I didn't look at the OP's location, but he said he lived between Ontario and Detroit (Detroit is in the US isn't it?), and I, wrongly jumped to the conclusion that he lived in the US. Sorry, mea culpa.

loose nut
04-22-2018, 10:11 PM
OK, my mistake. I didn't look at the OP's location, but he said he lived between Ontario and Detroit (Detroit is in the US isn't it?), and I, wrongly jumped to the conclusion that he lived in the US. Sorry, mea culpa.

East mistake, lots of Americans do it to.

OK, I was down at the Names show this weekend and by luck I found a guy that was selling copper wire. I need .047" and .078" and I acquired some .078" and .040". The last is a bit small but it will work. I can still form the heads to the proper size. Now all I have to do is rig up some punch and dies.

rohart
04-23-2018, 09:46 AM
When slagging off British shipping companies, may I point out that half of them we use over here are originally US companies, so probably half the profits get repatriated to the US. And that includes the profits from internal UK postage.

In the UK, the only company I trust is Hermes, and that's only for their delivery procedure. They were recently hauled over the coals, like some others, for paying a pittance.

I laughed when DHL dropped KFC in the s**t, and KFC rehired Bidvest for their logistics. DHL recently wasted my time in a delivery. I had to go to their depot, to find my goods weren't there. But while there I overheard from upstairs a wild screaming row between supervisors and staff. Not a good omen.

MaxHeadRoom
04-23-2018, 10:43 AM
I need some small (3/64 and 5/64 diam. shanks) round head "snap" solid copper rivets, the kind used in models like trains and steam engines etc.

Have you tried Misumi USA? They have some very useful hardware and have a wide range of rivet items.
Much of it made in Japan.
Max.

loose nut
04-23-2018, 04:17 PM
When slagging off British shipping companies, may I point out that half of them we use over here are originally US companies, so probably half the profits get repatriated to the US. And that includes the profits from internal UK postage.

In the UK, the only company I trust is Hermes, and that's only for their delivery procedure. They were recently hauled over the coals, like some others, for paying a pittance.

I laughed when DHL dropped KFC in the s**t, and KFC rehired Bidvest for their logistics. DHL recently wasted my time in a delivery. I had to go to their depot, to find my goods weren't there. But while there I overheard from upstairs a wild screaming row between supervisors and staff. Not a good omen.

It really dosen't matter who owns it or why it cost so much or takes so long or if it is private shipping or PO mailed, the end result will be buying somewhere else.