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J Tiers
04-28-2018, 12:02 AM
There are two.

One is a Norma 205, which is not much trouble, it crosses to a 52mm OD x 25mm, which is common enough.

The other is an SKF marked 170392A. That one is 52mm OD, but the seat for it is 0.9925. The bearing passes over the 25mm bearing seat as a rattle fit, and is a press fit on the 0.9925 seat. So, it is neither a 25mm, nor a 1" ID.

I can find nothing particular as a real cross, nor can I find an actual set of specs on that number. SKF comes up with nothing when I search, although it seems to point at automotive bearings in general. I get lots of hits from searching, but they come up with all kinds of different IDs.

The difference is by design, as the 170382 has to pass over the seat for the 205 in order to seat on the shaft. That is an un changeable feature of the design (not mine, it's an old spindle). I figured it was an SAE inch bore, but it seems not to quite line up with a 1" dimension, it is smaller than that, larger than 25mm.

Cuttings
04-28-2018, 12:59 AM
I am not saying that this is the case here but once in a while you can run into a bearing that is made for a particular manufacturer and they seem to have the exclusive rights to it.
Where I have seen this was in Hyster and I think Carco winches on Cat equipment. There was a bearing with a bearing manufacturers number on it. You could find the number under the manufacturer but they could not sell it to you. You had to buy it from the winch manufacturer at a pretty high price.

J Tiers
04-28-2018, 01:12 AM
Perfectly possible, and would explain the odd bore that is not 25mm and is also not an SAE size, nor standard inch of any kind. The number does not seem to appear anywhere in SKF. A google search of the number did not get me anything relevant.... the things I followed up either did not relate, or I could not determine if they did, because the site did not give any dimensions. SKF's search function was AFU.

Some results from google seemed to be cross references to Automotive, but again, no info, and no real indication of the right part.

Some others were to items that appeared to be the same number, but a completely different bore size. The Device seems to be shop made, and the person concerned may have used parts he had access to. It could be from some obscure transmission, or the like.

That would be unfortunate, because there is no other real alternative to re-making the spindle, and the size and function make it very hard to get two bearings that will work. I might be able to grind down to the 25mm size, and find an SAE bearing for the rear. But I would rather not, as it seems to be good now, if I could find a bearing that fits.

The 205 bearing is completely shot, and the 170382 bearing is "almost good"... it is a little rough.

johansen
04-28-2018, 01:22 AM
bore out a sacrificial piece of metal or plastic to the od of the bearing as precise as you can get it, then stuff the bearing in there and tighten the chuck to hold the bearing..

temporarily glue the bearing shut with a sheet of say, paper and super glue to seal and lock up the bearing and grind the id out. but this won't ensure the ID is concentric to the axis of rotation of the bearing.. but it is close enough for a lot of work.

for a much more precise fit do the above but rotate the id while you're grinding, glue a pulley onto the inner bore, use an o ring or something to rotate the bore with another motor
but this won't permit you to seal the bearing with glue or wax or grease so you'll need to figure out a way to solve that problem.



edit: due to the slop in the bearings to do what i suggested you will need two of them, with a wavespring between them to preload.. otherwise whatever you use to rotate the ID will tilt it one way or the other and you'll have a tapered id.

Mike Burch
04-28-2018, 01:33 AM
Would it be possible to build up the weird seat and grind it back to 1.0000"? Or would that cause too much distortion?

lakeside53
04-28-2018, 01:34 AM
I'd just lightly knurl it then grind back to 1.0000. Plenty of seat support. If you were worried loctite in the knurls will fix the divots. Next guy will hate you though ;)

J Tiers
04-28-2018, 01:45 AM
Grinding ID ould be done... probably needs o be a sealed type for that. Those are obtainable, I'd rather use a shielded one side for it, but.... And the next guy would hate me just as much.

Knurling.... maybe, the spindle is hardened. Building up is probably not a "go" with this, unless with a cold process.

Another easier approach would be to grind the larger seat down to take a 25mm, and grind the existing 25mm seat down just a little to lighten the fit, and deal with pressing the one over the first seat to get to the second. The backside 25mm bearing seat needs to allow some axial movement for thermal expansion anyhow.

I need to examine and understand the odd preload system better. It involves a sleeve, what appears to be a modified valve spring, and two end nuts that seem to adjust preload, but may actually just secure the bearings in place

They seem to seat against the spacer, with the spring between them to set preload. The only relief for thermal expansion is the fit of the rear bearing on the spindle, although that goes against most spindle design info I know about. The design does not appear to allow the bearing OD to slide in the housing, which would be the approach I usually see.

Illinoyance
04-28-2018, 01:54 AM
Walker Turner is one of the companies that used odd sized bearings on some of their equipment. I encountered that on a wood lathe.

dave_r
04-28-2018, 03:43 AM
Or make a press-fit bushing to get the ID up to a bearing size you can buy?

Ariens lawn mowers use a common-size idler pulley, but hold it in place with a smaller bolt (I believe the idler has a 1/2" bore, and they use a 3/8" bolt to hold it in place....their "value add" is to press in a bushing to bring the ID down to 3/8 for the bolt and jacking the price 5x.

MattiJ
04-28-2018, 04:42 AM
Walker Turner is one of the companies that used odd sized bearings on some of their equipment. I encountered that on a wood lathe.

https://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=32190&styleid=15

6205 with 0.992" bore would be Walker-Turner speciality indeed.

6205-1" is common enough but then you would need to knurl, spray weld, shim or sleeve the shaft. Depending on application the beer can shim works just fine..
Or one of these http://www.usatolerancerings.com/uploads/PDFs/USA%20Tolerance%20Rings_Catalogue_Rev.08-28-13_A.pdf

DR
04-28-2018, 06:16 AM
Walker Turner is one of the companies that used odd sized bearings on some of their equipment. I encountered that on a wood lathe.

Yep, I've found that out the hard way. Older Delta woodworking equipment can also be a problem. Delta owned New Departure and of course used their bearings, a good many which are no longer readily available.

As to building up a shaft, brush plating is an easy way. It's a simple cold process using hard nickel with a portable plating setup. Build the area up oversize and grind to size. A machinery rebuilding company should have the plating setup.

Sparky_NY
04-28-2018, 06:32 AM
Yep, I've found that out the hard way. Older Delta woodworking equipment can also be a problem. Delta owned New Departure and of course used their bearings, a good many which are no longer readily available.

As to building up a shaft, brush plating is an easy way. It's a simple cold process using hard nickel with a portable plating setup. Build the area up oversize and grind to size. A machinery rebuilding company should have the plating setup.

Caswell has DIY brush plating kits on the website.

JoeLee
04-28-2018, 07:36 AM
There are two.

One is a Norma 205, which is not much trouble, it crosses to a 52mm OD x 25mm, which is common enough.

The other is an SKF marked 170392A. That one is 52mm OD, but the seat for it is 0.9925. The bearing passes over the 25mm bearing seat as a rattle fit, and is a press fit on the 0.9925 seat. So, it is neither a 25mm, nor a 1" ID.

I can find nothing particular as a real cross, nor can I find an actual set of specs on that number. SKF comes up with nothing when I search, although it seems to point at automotive bearings in general. I get lots of hits from searching, but they come up with all kinds of different IDs.

The difference is by design, as the 170382 has to pass over the seat for the 205 in order to seat on the shaft. That is an un changeable feature of the design (not mine, it's an old spindle). I figured it was an SAE inch bore, but it seems not to quite line up with a 1" dimension, it is smaller than that, larger than 25mm. What machine or tool, make model, age, etc. is the bearing being used in?? Just curious. I ran into something like this a long time ago..... the mfg. had bastardized bearings made that could only be purchased through them.
If that's the case then something in that #PN should indicate special OEM or something like that.

JL............

CCWKen
04-28-2018, 07:58 AM
I am not saying that this is the case here but once in a while you can run into a bearing that is made for a particular manufacturer and they seem to have the exclusive rights to it.
Where I have seen this was in Hyster and I think Carco winches on Cat equipment. There was a bearing with a bearing manufacturers number on it. You could find the number under the manufacturer but they could not sell it to you. You had to buy it from the winch manufacturer at a pretty high price.
I've run into that with water pump bearings for cars. Most recently with the drive shaft bearing for the Craftsman ban saw. :rolleyes:

JoeLee
04-28-2018, 08:08 AM
I've never heard of anyone changing a bearing in a car water pump.

JL.............

projectnut
04-28-2018, 08:50 AM
There are two.

One is a Norma 205, which is not much trouble, it crosses to a 52mm OD x 25mm, which is common enough.

The other is an SKF marked 170392A. That one is 52mm OD, but the seat for it is 0.9925. The bearing passes over the 25mm bearing seat as a rattle fit, and is a press fit on the 0.9925 seat. So, it is neither a 25mm, nor a 1" ID.

I can find nothing particular as a real cross, nor can I find an actual set of specs on that number. SKF comes up with nothing when I search, although it seems to point at automotive bearings in general. I get lots of hits from searching, but they come up with all kinds of different IDs.

The difference is by design, as the 170382 has to pass over the seat for the 205 in order to seat on the shaft. That is an un changeable feature of the design (not mine, it's an old spindle). I figured it was an SAE inch bore, but it seems not to quite line up with a 1" dimension, it is smaller than that, larger than 25mm.

Have you tried using the International Bearing Interchange manuals to cross reference?
I have a set in the shop, unfortunately I'm out of town for a couple weeks. These books used to be available at the public library in the reference section. The set I have has 3 volumes and is several thousand pages long. They are available through book stores, but they are outrageously expensive at about $450.00 a set.


Another option is creating an account at the "Open Library" website. Then you can use an online version.

https://openlibrary.org/books/OL2559824M/I.B.I._International_Bearing_Interchange_guide

You might also contact a company called "Locate Ball Bearings". They specialize in older and obsolete bearings. They buy out bankrupt bearing houses, overstock, and slow moving parts. I used them to find bearing for my 1960's era Sheldon lathe. The original bearings in my machine were also Norma, which I believe went out of business in the 1980's.



Locate Ball Bearings
Eric Leimkuhler
75090 St. Charles Place
Suite B
Palm Desert, CA 92211
United States
Phone: 800-409-3632
eric@locateballbearings.com
www.locateballbearings.com (http://www.locateballbearings.com)

ikdor
04-28-2018, 09:16 AM
If it is indeed an automotive bearing you're usually out of luck except if one of the parts houses still has old stock. In general the automotive division of skf is inaccessible to consumers so the website only shows the general industrial catalog. It would be surprising if you found much on the skf site related to an automotive bearing. Automotive bearings are sold in bulk to OEMs and parts houses and not stocked by skf, so you can't order them. The is a separate business unit SKF VSM which does sell a limited catalog of wheel bearings and a few other parts, you could get lucky there. They mostly sell to parts houses but they started a direct line together with amazon at least in the UK.

There are also industrial specials but they usually have a Vxxx suffix, these would be used for special dimensions, lubricant, etc.

edit: searching on the vsm site you get a hit for the 170392, but it's a BR15101 cone with and ID of 1" and it appears to match a studebaker part#170392.....

Too bad I just left SKF as I could have taken a look in the automotive database.

Igor

MikeL46
04-28-2018, 09:47 AM
Could you use a Speedi-Sleeve to get up to an acceptable fit? Normally they are used on worn shafts, but you may get lucky.

Mike

lakeside53
04-28-2018, 10:50 AM
I've never heard of anyone changing a bearing in a car water pump.

JL.............

Before they became dirt cheap from china, it was very common. Water pumps often used a cartridge type bearing - sleeve with 2 or more bearing integral - press out the old and in with the new. They are still available. I used them in my 2x72 belt grinder.

J Tiers
04-28-2018, 11:05 AM
No markings on the device, which is a small spindle taking 3C collets. probably shop made. Bearings used may be whatever the maker had on hand or could get hold of easily

Dunno if the brush plate will build up 10 thou in a reliable solidly attached manner. Pressing a bearing on might just scrape off the plating.

Speedi sleeve is too thick, and the thing needs better than the beer can shim.

I'd actually like to upgrade the bearings a bit, not necessarily just replace with equivalents, but that may not be practical.

I'll have to think about it for a bit.

CCWKen
04-28-2018, 12:34 PM
I've never heard of anyone changing a bearing in a car water pump.

JL.............

When a new pump is over $250 and a one-month wait, you'll try anything. :D

J Tiers
04-28-2018, 01:44 PM
The SKF

Shield side
https://i.imgur.com/6KMwTMe.jpg?1

With cleaning and lube with some oil, it is smoother, but still has roughness. Shielded bearings never wash out well, and I have bad luck with popping the shieldls out / replacing when clean.

lakeside53
04-28-2018, 04:12 PM
The way to test it really is to load it. A very gentle squeeze in a vise then rotate the center will quickly tell you how bad the race/balls are. If you can feel it without load, it's likely shot.

You could have knurled and ground back to easy-to-find size by now ;) I'd not even bother setting up a TP grinder. Knurl, lathe (sharp hss), polish to fit with 220, 320 and 400 paper.

JoeLee
04-28-2018, 06:19 PM
The SKF

Shield side
https://i.imgur.com/6KMwTMe.jpg?1

With cleaning and lube with some oil, it is smoother, but still has roughness. Shielded bearings never wash out well, and I have bad luck with popping the shieldls out / replacing when clean. No, they never do wash out well and you usually mangle the shields trying to pop them off. I have been in the habit of saving all my old bearings that have seals.
Sometimes I get lucky and can replace the shield with a seal.
I also made a little grease fitting fixture that allows me to pump grease into a shielded bearing. I made a few in different sizes as I needed them. You know the bearing is greased when it comes out the other side of the shield.

JL............

Mike Burch
04-28-2018, 06:19 PM
Jerry, you say the bearing's number is 170382A.
Although it's hard to tell from the photo, I think I can see traces of another number between the 1 and the 7—a 3 or an 8? It may be just an illusion, but there's certainly space there for another number.

JoeLee
04-28-2018, 06:26 PM
I think it may be an illusion, or something the vendor may have scratched in there....... looking at the other numbers and how deep and clear they are stamped I find it hard to believe one number wouldn't have the same appearance.
But, on the other hand I have seen bearings where a end user / machine manufacturer puts their own code or internal factory identification on there.
Some vendors even request that the bearing factory do this to their spec.

JL..............

digr
04-28-2018, 06:34 PM
Put some STP in small can and place the bearing in the bottom and heat the bottom of the can with a torch and the bearing will suck the STP in and you are good to go.

J Tiers
04-28-2018, 07:27 PM
The back side is not shielded, but the gunk does not like to wash out even so, been there before. You really need to be able to wash it "through", otherwise there always seems to be one last piece of "tramp dirt" that reappears later.

https://i.imgur.com/XrvJdns.jpg?1

Leadfootin
04-28-2018, 08:16 PM
If you really need the exact fit bearing, check out this site in England, reasonable turn around with excellent quality:
http://www.hb-bearings.com/0home/home.htm
Many of the racers and antique car restorers use them.

J Tiers
04-29-2018, 12:15 AM
They look pretty good.

But I'd make a new spindle way before I'd source a bearing from them. You gotta really want that bearing badly. I don't need it THAT badly, not even close.

Knurling up is not to practical, I do not have a knurler that will clamp down hard enough, the spindle is at least somewhat hardened.

As for the mystery number in between the 1 and the rest, it ain't there. That's some oil or dirt on it.

As I look at the thing, I can see that both bearings need to be at the least double shielded, and possibly "double seal". I did a trial re-assemble, and I can see that it is virtually impossible to keep dirt out with the setup they have, which is the nose bearing single shielded, and the tail bearing open. The clearance between the nut and the spindle is small enough to appear to work, but in actuality, is large enough to admit all sorts of crap.

Needs a bit of a re-design, IMO. Not a lot, but some slinger washers at least, or both bearings sealed or shielded.

I got out the metric mics, and after a little polishing of the smaller seat, the two measure 24.99 mm, and 25.22 mm. I will probably grind the 25.22 mm down to just over 25mm, and leave the other. Both bearings are 52mm OD, so that will let me use standard metric bearing sizes. The 25mm just slides over the 24.99 mm by hand pressure.