Keyless chuck grip test

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  • MattiJ
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2016
    • 4916

    Keyless chuck grip test

    Sometimes have had problems with drills or especially hard tap shanks slipping in keyless chucks. So when I had a bunch of keyless chucks laying around in the shop I decided to test them.
    Results were partly surprising.

    Tested with 6mm hardened shaft with chuck tightened to both ends, torqued until one of the chucks slips:

    From worse to better:

    8. 1.5-16mm San-Ou china cheapo keyed chuck
    7. 13mm Rِhm 2-part plastic sleeve (possibly Extra-RV 80 but without carbide jaws)
    6. 13mm Rِhm 1-part steel sleeve Extra-RV with carbide jaws
    5. 13mm Matsushi-ta (older Panasonic cordless original) (edit: stupid censorship system)
    4. 13mm Makita (only text to be found says Makita)
    3. 10mm Yukiwa-Seiko (made in japan, came with little 10.8v makita)
    2. 1-16mm keyless china cheapo bench drill chuck
    1. 1.5-16mm San-Ou keyed chuck tightened with unreasonable 1 feet cheater bar


    Last edited by MattiJ; 10-03-2018, 10:29 AM.
    Location: Helsinki, Finland, Europe
  • MattiJ
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2016
    • 4916

    #2
    Irony of this was that I replaced the Yukiwa-Seiko in the little makita with the carbide jaw Rِhm Extra-RV in hopes to get more grip

    Results turn somewhat upside down with softer shanks, the carbide jaw Rِhm had better grip than Yukiwa when tested with 8mm S355 cold drawn bar.
    Location: Helsinki, Finland, Europe

    Comment

    • Willy
      Senior Member
      • Oct 2005
      • 8989

      #3
      Interesting results. Nice to see someone that actually took the time to do this kind of hands-on test. Any idea of the torque transferred before grip was lost?

      It would be nice to see the applied tightening torque and the torque transfer figures in order to get some sense of repeatability. However I realize the depth of those types of tests can get out of control very fast, especially if you toss in a couple of dozen other chucks in order to make it all inclusive.

      Thanks for taking the time to do the tests and to share the results here. Definitely some surprises in these results already!
      Home, down in the valley behind the Red Angus
      Bad Decisions Make Good Stories​

      Location: British Columbia

      Comment

      • Bob La Londe
        Senior Member
        • Jan 2014
        • 3967

        #4
        For the lathe I just gave up and bought an ER32 MT4 collet chuck. Still need to turn a stub to go in the back because it won't quite pop out of the tailstock just from cranking it in.
        --
        Bob La Londe
        Professional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a "Real" machinist​
        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        I always wanted a welding stinger that looked like the north end of a south bound chicken. Often my welds look like somebody pointed the wrong end of a chicken at the joint and squeezed until something came out. Might as well look the part.

        Comment

        • Doozer
          Junior Member
          • Jan 2005
          • 10595

          #5
          To opine on technical matters is meaningless and unproductive.
          Torque data and uniform test setup is imperative.
          A 1 through 10 scale is about as effective to rate beer or hot women.
          Basically you are saying, "Trust me, this chuck is better than that one".
          No.

          -Doozer
          Last edited by Doozer; 10-03-2018, 01:11 PM.
          DZER

          Comment

          • MattiJ
            Senior Member
            • Dec 2016
            • 4916

            #6
            Originally posted by Willy View Post
            Interesting results. Nice to see someone that actually took the time to do this kind of hands-on test. Any idea of the torque transferred before grip was lost?

            It would be nice to see the applied tightening torque and the torque transfer figures in order to get some sense of repeatability. However I realize the depth of those types of tests can get out of control very fast, especially if you toss in a couple of dozen other chucks in order to make it all inclusive.

            Thanks for taking the time to do the tests and to share the results here. Definitely some surprises in these results already!
            Actual transmitted torque was pretty small, "screwdriver territory" , less than what I can apply by hand to tighten the keyless 16mm bench drill chuck.
            And I tightened the chucks "as tight as I can" so the transmitted torque was less than tightening torque for all of them except the small Yukiwa-Seiko that had more torque handling capacity than the used tightening torque.
            Rِhm provides lot better grip than the slippery Yukiwa-seiko body so they were definitely not tightened to same torque, more like practical maximum torque what you can apply to that specific chuck body without Popeye arms.
            (and yet still the Rِhm did worse than the Yukiwa)

            I was also surprised how well the tiny Yukiwa-seiko did so I repeated the test with it at least 15 times vs others and the result were pretty much same at every round. Only cheater bar tightened chuck and bench drill keyless managed to handle more torque.

            And like I said with soft shank the results are not same.
            Last edited by MattiJ; 10-03-2018, 01:43 PM.
            Location: Helsinki, Finland, Europe

            Comment

            • MattiJ
              Senior Member
              • Dec 2016
              • 4916

              #7
              Originally posted by Doozer View Post
              To opine on technical matters is meaningless and unproductive.
              Torque data and uniform test setup is imperative.
              A 1 through 10 scale is about as effective to rate beer or hot women.
              Basically you are saying, "Trust me, this chuck is better than that one".
              No.

              -Doozer
              You would still need to trust the numbers unless you want to come to see by yourself
              (I'll offer you a beer in that case)
              Location: Helsinki, Finland, Europe

              Comment

              • platypus2020
                Senior Member
                • May 2007
                • 503

                #8
                Apparently, I seem to be the only person in the world that hates, with a passion, keyless chucks of any kind or manufacture. I gave away my keyless Rohm and keyless Albrecht drill chucks (on MT#3 arbors), either they slipped or if you got them not to slip, you just about needed 2 pipe wrenches to open them back up. All of the drill chucks in the shop, on the lathe, mill, mag drills or drill presses are of the keyed type.
                jack

                Comment

                • MattiJ
                  Senior Member
                  • Dec 2016
                  • 4916

                  #9
                  Originally posted by platypus2020 View Post
                  Apparently, I seem to be the only person in the world that hates, with a passion, keyless chucks of any kind or manufacture. I gave away my keyless Rohm and keyless Albrecht drill chucks (on MT#3 arbors), either they slipped or if you got them not to slip, you just about needed 2 pipe wrenches to open them back up. All of the drill chucks in the shop, on the lathe, mill, mag drills or drill presses are of the keyed type.
                  I'd like to actually get one nice ball bearing keyed chuck but price&availability have kept me away from those. Chinese! "golden goose" has got quite many positive comments on PM! but finding one with reasonable postage seem to be tough.
                  (has to be amazingly good if folks over practical machinist forum dare to recommend something chinese)
                  Location: Helsinki, Finland, Europe

                  Comment

                  • JRouche
                    Senior Member
                    • Aug 2004
                    • 10944

                    #10
                    Neat test Matti. Thanks for taking the time to perform and show us. JR

                    Comment

                    • J Tiers
                      Senior Member
                      • Jan 2004
                      • 44281

                      #11
                      Originally posted by platypus2020 View Post
                      Apparently, I seem to be the only person in the world that hates, with a passion, keyless chucks of any kind or manufacture. I gave away my keyless Rohm and keyless Albrecht drill chucks (on MT#3 arbors), either they slipped or if you got them not to slip, you just about needed 2 pipe wrenches to open them back up. All of the drill chucks in the shop, on the lathe, mill, mag drills or drill presses are of the keyed type.
                      There are more of us.

                      The chucks with the very narrow "counter torque" ring are the worst. The ones that depend on a brake in the drill(apparently). are the best, but none are great, and I am fairly strong in the hands. But gripping that narrow ring is often less than easy.
                      CNC machines only go through the motions.

                      Ideas expressed may be mine, or from anyone else in the universe.
                      Not responsible for clerical errors. Or those made by lay people either.
                      Number formats and units may be chosen at random depending on what day it is.
                      I reserve the right to use a number system with any integer base without prior notice.
                      Generalizations are understood to be "often" true, but not true in every case.

                      Comment

                      • platypus2020
                        Senior Member
                        • May 2007
                        • 503

                        #12
                        I have 2 of the Chinese sourced 1” ball bearing Pelican brand drill chucks, that have been great
                        jack

                        Comment

                        • danlb
                          Senior Member
                          • Nov 2008
                          • 7994

                          #13
                          It would seem to be pretty easy to use a torque wrench to measure where the shaft breaks free. That would give empirical data points to compare. My newest drill only puts out 700 in/lbs of torque, so it's well within the capability of a common 10- 100 ft/lb torque wrench.

                          I'm not sure how much more grip I need in the chuck. Last night the drill smashed my knuckles into the wall using a 1 inch bit that locked up in the hole.

                          Which brings me back to the torque wrench idea. You won't gain much by putting a chuck that has a death grip on a small drill driver that only exerts the torque needed to drive a 2 inch long 1/4 inch deck screw.
                          At the end of the project, there is a profound difference between spare parts and left over parts.

                          Location: SF East Bay.

                          Comment

                          • Arcane
                            Senior Member
                            • Oct 2002
                            • 4027

                            #14
                            Originally posted by platypus2020 View Post
                            Apparently, I seem to be the only person in the world that hates, with a passion, keyless chucks of any kind or manufacture. I gave away my keyless Rohm and keyless Albrecht drill chucks (on MT#3 arbors), either they slipped or if you got them not to slip, you just about needed 2 pipe wrenches to open them back up. All of the drill chucks in the shop, on the lathe, mill, mag drills or drill presses are of the keyed type.
                            That's very strange. I use middle of the road quality keyless chucks on both my mill and my lathe and I don't have any problems with them slipping and if I don't use a Silver & Deming drill bit, I never have any problem releasing them by hand.
                            Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada

                            Comment

                            • CalM
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2013
                              • 1730

                              #15
                              somewhat of a distraction

                              As much as I enjoy engineering studies, I have found that keyless chucks are fickle. Also I have found that a judicial application of valve grinding paste applied to the chuck jaws and thoroughly pressed in and wiped clean, can make a world of difference on grip power.

                              Also

                              I have a rather old , all metal. Kawasaki 0-1/4" keyless chuck from my aviation days.

                              It has two tightening elements, A "first stage", for drawing up, and then a second knurled ring for final tightening. That puppy holds drill shanks like there is no tomorrow. I wish I had the same style in a larger capacity for the hand held drill motors.

                              Comment

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