PDA

View Full Version : making vice jaws.



plunger
12-14-2018, 12:39 AM
I battle with my bench vice. The jaws have lost their grip and are worn. I presume they are hardened but thirty years have taken their toll. I would like to machine them true but how will I give them that knurled look. It looks like a job for a shaper. I have a milling machine to do the job.

I am also wondering if a thrust bearing would give the vise a rolls royce feel.Or is their just too much torque involved in a vise ?

754
12-14-2018, 12:49 AM
Take a piece of plate , mount at 45 degrees to your tables then cut a key way in it that your jaw fits into, drill and tap it.
Now mount that against your angle plate. Cut serrations with a 90 deg included angle wheel cutter on a stub arbor.

Tundra Twin Track
12-14-2018, 01:15 AM
I am also wondering if a thrust bearing would give the vise a rolls royce feel.Or is their just too much torque involved in a vise ?

My 320 lb Shaper Vise has a thrust bearing,it needed replacing and have new one in box but not installed yet.

elf
12-14-2018, 02:31 AM
A Dremel would make quick work of the serrations :cool:

Euph0ny
12-14-2018, 04:16 AM
I battle with my bench vice. The jaws have lost their grip and are worn... I would like to machine them true but how will I give them that knurled look. It looks like a job for a shaper. I have a milling machine to do the job.



https://youtu.be/9jy8ZXvB6tg look around 14.30. Mr Menendez puts jaw serrations in with a fly cutter.

PStechPaul
12-14-2018, 04:55 AM
You might be able to get or make a straight gear hob to cut multiple grooves in the surface:
http://www.jzcomputer.com/spurgears/

http://www.jzcomputer.com/spurgears/Images/80ToothGear.jpg

It might be better to form the grooves by using a V-shaped tool in a press or drop hammer. That might serve to provide some work hardening for the jaw surfaces.

Another possibility is making the jaws from an old (or cheap) file. Using carbide or diamond tooling, of course.

Bob Engelhardt
12-14-2018, 08:14 AM
Y [...]
Another possibility is making the jaws from an old (or cheap) file. Using carbide or diamond tooling, of course.

That's clever!

MattiJ
12-14-2018, 11:00 AM
I battle with my bench vice. The jaws have lost their grip and are worn. I presume they are hardened but thirty years have taken their toll. I would like to machine them true but how will I give them that knurled look. It looks like a job for a shaper. I have a milling machine to do the job.

I am also wondering if a thrust bearing would give the vise a rolls royce feel.Or is their just too much torque involved in a vise ?

Without going through the math I'd say that thrust bearing should handle the forces ok. Needle type thrust bearings have somewhat larger load ratings than ball bearing type.
I have car front wheel bearing extractor with thrust (ball)bearing and even that one survives couple of uses with 1 meter cheater bar and ample of force. (thrust bearing is usually shot after 2 or 3 uses if really have to jerk the 1 meter cheater bar with "2 arms and squat lift"

BCRider
12-14-2018, 01:15 PM
The trouble with a bearing around a vise is that it's not really protected from filing swarf or other bits getting into it. If you could make up some manner of shielding cups with over lapping edges to form a bit of a labyrinth seal I'd say GREAT IDEA! But an open bearing? I think it would not last for long.

If the jaws are not beaten to death and have the meat on them to let you skim them I'd say it's a good time for buying a solid carbide end mill or one of those 1" jobs with the single insert to face and edge the jaws you have. Assuming the heads for the screws are on the jaws you'll also need to deepen the counterbores or shave the heads of the screws. And with that done you could use the screws to hold the jaws to an angle plate and arrange or make some manner of flycutter to do the serrations if that is what you want. But it too would likely need to be carbide. And that's a heck of an interrupted cut.

softtail
12-14-2018, 01:28 PM
Thrust bearing would be fine. Kurts have them after all.....

There is also such a thing as a 'plain' thrust bearing.

Cats rod for making serrated jaws at 9:20:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0IkkcLxSTo

754
12-14-2018, 01:31 PM
Just make them from annealed stock and heat treat them, not that hard.
Files might work if they were 1/2 inch thick, can see them snapping quickly at the bolt holes if you should try it..

BCRider
12-14-2018, 02:12 PM
Well, the files can be tempered back to a nice spring like temper. And at that point they could be cut with suitable drill bits and counterbore cutters. But the bigger issue is that I've never seen a file that had a cross section suitable for being used as new jaws for a large bench. And I know for a fact that I would not want to have to use such a beast for very long if there is such a thing.

Duffy
12-14-2018, 06:10 PM
See if you can find an old WORN farrier's rap and use it for replacement jaw faces. I have a couple and they are about 16" by o.5" thick. you ill have to anneal it before drilling

rohart
12-14-2018, 07:52 PM
Coarse files for aircraft alloy with curved single serrations would work. But why not just carve the serrations in the various pieces of work you want to hold. Much more secure way of ruining everything. Or, to put it another way, why on earth serrations ? Just how hard are you going to beat on stuff ?

Make new jaws from plain mild steel stock, or from brass or ally for softer work. I've never noticed not having serrations. I use steel jaws, with copper sheet hammered to fit over the jaws for protecting soft work. It's just cut, drill four holes and counterbore. And the counter bore can be a counter sink, or a shallow counterbore if you go for button head screws.

If you make your new jaws overhang your jaw mouth each side you can shape the ends for bending, and you can hold long stock vertically at the side of the vise. I haven't got round to tapping several sized holes in my vise jaws for holding screws or threaded rod for dressing the ends or shortening.

If you make your jaws taller, with a gap, you can finish off saw cuts through work without having to turn your work upside down, and without wrecking the jaws. I am thinking of putting a horizontal V-groove in a pair of jaws for cutting rod or threaded rod.

I would like a vise with snap in jaws - jaws anchored maybe with stout pins, with some kind of sprung retainer. These would have to be no wider than the base casting, to avoid one end lifting off woth non-central work. I'd like to be able to swap jaws quickly - like in ten seconds or less. Unscrewing and replacing takes a couple of minutes if I'm quick - too slow for proper flexibility.

mattthemuppet
12-14-2018, 08:20 PM
Or, to put it another way, why on earth serrations ?

unscrewing stuff on round things. Quite often on plain jaws there's so little contact that the thing you're unscrewing something from will simply rotate in the vise. A V-groove might prevent that, but I've not used a bench vise with jaws like that.

PStechPaul
12-14-2018, 09:06 PM
Drill press vises often have horizontal and vertical V-grooves:
https://www.zoro.com/palmgren-drill-press-vise-low-profile-6in-jaw-w-9612601/i/G0463261/
https://cloudfront.zoro.com/product/full/Z1p5BvpcpEx_.JPG
Or with other grooves as well:
https://www.zoro.com/woodward-fab-drill-press-vise-cast-iron-hardened-jaws-wfv5/i/G8063590/
https://cloudfront.zoro.com/product/full/Z3qGK0icpEx_.JPG
You can also buy replacement jaws:
https://www.amazon.com/Tools-Record-Replacement-Mechanics-T6D/dp/B0002JT60E/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1544839027&sr=8-9&keywords=drill+press+vise+jaws
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71nE0WsU8nL._SL1312_.jpg
I still think files would make good jaws. I bought these at a flea market for about $1 each IIRC:
http://enginuitysystems.com/pix/tools/Files_1467.jpg

3 Phase Lightbulb
12-14-2018, 09:09 PM
I expect files would be too brittle for vise jaws.

Mcgyver
12-14-2018, 09:49 PM
Here's what I did - quick change system with spring loaded ball detent. Lots of different jaw material and they change in seconds.

https://i.imgur.com/8H2S6RO.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/5qKjLqY.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/2orW5Bb.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/e2sIyR8.jpg

BCRider
12-14-2018, 09:55 PM
unscrewing stuff on round things. Quite often on plain jaws there's so little contact that the thing you're unscrewing something from will simply rotate in the vise. A V-groove might prevent that, but I've not used a bench vise with jaws like that.

My drill press and milling vises all have smooth faces with "V" grooves. They have worked out so well that I'd be willing to give similar jaws for my big bench vise a try. And it would certainly reduce the times I need to use the soft jaws. Not eliminate them by any means. But it would reduce the times and marks.

I recently saw a new brand name of bench vise at the local cheap tool store. The unique thing is that these have smooth faced jaws. But cut into the jaws are vertical and horizontal "V" notches and half round holes that line up which are clearly intended for what seems like a common size of hard pressure line with a rounded counter sink for forming flares. THAT part was an eye opener for sure. And the most amazing thing. All three display sizes shared guide fits which allowed for smooth easy operation but the movable jaws had barely felt amounts of slop and wrack. And THAT is a miracle among miracles for lower cost vises.

McGuyver, I absolutely LOVE your idea for the rapidly interchangeable jaws. Freaking brilliant ! ! ! ! The balls retain the jaws and the length of the guides in their (reamed?) sockets would prevent them moving around with loads around the edges.

Mcgyver
12-14-2018, 10:05 PM
McGuyver, I absolutely LOVE your idea for the rapidly interchangeable jaws. Freaking brilliant ! ! ! ! The balls retain the jaws and the length of the guides in their (reamed?) sockets would prevent them moving around with loads around the edges.

Thanks, that was one my first articles in HSM. The detents click into grooves in the pins. They're carefully done so the jaw is held up against the adapter plate. They feel solid when clicked in with no wiggling about so debris doesn't drop between jaw and adapter plate.

https://i.imgur.com/ps8QPw3.jpg

plunger
12-15-2018, 12:19 AM
Thanks, that was one my first articles in HSM. The detents click into grooves in the pins. They're carefully done so the jaw is held up against the adapter plate. They feel solid when clicked in with no wiggling about so debris doesn't drop between jaw and adapter plate.

https://i.imgur.com/ps8QPw3.jpg

Damn this is smart.I now have to figure how I could drill all these holes accurately and how to make the ball indent thingy.

Tundra Twin Track
12-15-2018, 02:01 AM
Here's what I did - quick change system with spring loaded ball detent. Lots of different jaw material and they change in seconds.

https://i.imgur.com/8H2S6RO.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/5qKjLqY.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/2orW5Bb.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/e2sIyR8.jpg

That is some fine work Mcgyver,those notched jaws work Fantastic in a drill press. The Heinrich vise I got for my drill press has them and a horizontal V notch on fixed jaw.

754
12-15-2018, 03:48 AM
The sneaky finger relief on the ends is a nice touch..

plunger
12-15-2018, 06:13 AM
The sneaky finger relief on the ends is a nice touch..

I was wondering how that was done as its on a taper

Mcgyver
12-15-2018, 09:35 AM
thanks guys. the finger relief was done with an end mill, just hold the work at a bit of an angle in the vise with it sticking out the side a bit and move things sideways into the cutter


I was wondering how that was done as its on a taper

larry_g
12-15-2018, 12:05 PM
https://wiltonviseparts.wordpress.com/

There is a how to on the page above on cutting serrations in vise jaws.

lg
no neat sig line

plunger
12-17-2018, 03:08 AM
I didnt want to spend too much time on this. My first dilema was that the jaws were welded to the vise. I see why I did this thirty years ago. The capscrew holding the jaw on had snapped off in the jaw itself. I landed up grinding the welds off and then had to drill out the capscrews because the hex for the allen keys had stripped.
I used a masonry bit that I sharpened on a green wheel.
Then I proceeded to chase the old threads out. This didnt go well . I snapped two taps off in the jaws. Not by tapping but by dropping the jaw accidently with the tap and wrench attached to it. Clumsy bastard I am.I managed to do this twice.
I then just rosecut them true and tried to put a pattern in them. I used a flycutter and the only tungsten carbide tool I had was an internal thread cutting tool.Its not the best but will do.
https://i.imgur.com/TMkI4pol.jpg

Glug
12-17-2018, 01:35 PM
The detents click into grooves in the pins. They're carefully done so the jaw is held up against the adapter plate. They feel solid when clicked in with no wiggling about so debris doesn't drop between jaw and adapter plate.

Great work! Love that setup.

I've always liked the configuration on larger Wilton vises that has the jaw retention bolts coming into the threaded jaws from the outside rather than face side. That makes jaw changes much easier, but not as easy as your setup. As a bonus - like your design - it allows the face to remain continuous, with no interruption for bolt holes and heads. Though I'm sure all of us have used the bolt head as a 'part holding feature' at one time or another.

I think loose vise jaws contribute to broken vise support shelves, and ruined vises. The jaws rattle around, crud gets in there, and then someone pounds on it, cracking the support shelf. If a bit of steel gets under there, creating a pressure point, all the worse. I know you went for a snug fit as a key feature.

It makes me wonder, beyond good direct uniform contact between the shelf and jaw, how much do tight fasteners help protect against breakage? Not sure. Some vises feature a dowel to further support the jaws. Wiltons are an example, and based on the number of broken Wilton shelves, they often need it. Especially the abused mechanic vises.

Illinoyance
12-17-2018, 04:46 PM
If you are making replacement jaws from a file remember that most files are not uniform in thickness. If making new jaws just tilt the head of your milling machine 45* and use an end mill. Hold the work in a vise set 30* or 60* depending 0n the way you are looking at it. Make a series of equally spaced cuts across the face of the work. Set the vise at the same angle, opposite direction, and make the second set of cuts.

Actually it is easier on a shaper. Grind the groove angle you want into the tool. Swivel the vise as described above. A decent sized shaper should be able to cut each groove in a single pass. If you can set a coarse enough feed the shaper will automatically space your cuts.

thaiguzzi
12-17-2018, 10:29 PM
thanks guys. the finger relief was done with an end mill, just hold the work at a bit of an angle in the vise with it sticking out the side a bit and move things sideways into the cutter

The whole project & system is clever & very neat.
But Jeez, i thought i was OCD, that set up takes the biscuit............

Mcgyver
12-17-2018, 10:52 PM
The whole project & system is clever & very neat.
But Jeez, i thought i was OCD, that set up takes the biscuit............

lol thanks again gents, maybe a bit ocd....but in doing it as an article you've got put your best foot forward and submit nice photos.

plunger
12-18-2018, 12:24 AM
lol thanks again gents, maybe a bit ocd....but in doing it as an article you've got put your best foot forward and submit nice photos.

Ja ,my vise now suffers from performance anxiety after those pics.:o

jhe.1973
12-18-2018, 01:51 AM
.........................................
McGuyver, I absolutely LOVE your idea for the rapidly interchangeable jaws. Freaking brilliant ! ! ! ! The balls retain the jaws and the length of the guides in their (reamed?) sockets would prevent them moving around with loads around the edges.

What he said!

Although I may never get around to adding it to my to do list, I will definitely keep it in mind in case I find it necessary someday.

Thanks for showing this!

Glug
12-18-2018, 09:53 AM
If you are making replacement jaws from a file remember that most files are not uniform in thickness.

The other problem is that on many vises a file will be too thin to replace a jaw, because it won't clear the jaw support shelf. Arguably it doesn't need to just clear it a bit, it needs to clear it enough that parts don't rest against the shelf.

ezduzit
12-18-2018, 11:56 AM
Use a fly cutter with a sharply pointed bit and feed way faster than normal speed. Run the part through again at 90 degrees.

754
12-18-2018, 10:10 PM
Anyone got info or catalogs on Record vises from pre 1980 ? 5 inch I think.
I have a nice Record combination vise I think, less pipe holders..
Can't find info on previous search, no info ..
Will go to storage soon and get the number off it