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carsronnie
02-10-2019, 06:45 PM
i am just getting up the courage to try threading on my jet 9x20 lathe. my lowest spindle speed is 130. seems a little fast for my liking. can it be reduced further with a pulley change? also, can a person thread just by turning the chuck manually or does the cutter rely on some speed to do the cut? i am assuming it would.

rusty reamer
02-10-2019, 06:56 PM
If you just want to get the feel of single point threading, start with maybe a 1/2" aluminum rod, maybe get a 12" piece, and maybe only thread 6" or less so you have time to react. At the end where you are going to stop, cut away maybe a 1"spot less than the minor diameter. 130 should be fine, maybe thread a finer thread like 1/2-20, it will give you more time to react. Good luck

BCRider
02-10-2019, 07:11 PM
A popular mod/accessory for small lathes is a hand crank that locks into the outboard end of the mainshaft for just this sort of thing. It allows for easily threading up to a shoulder or to a very fine stop point.

And no, you don't need a minimum speed. Otherwise we'd have to work a LOT faster with a hand driven tap or die.... :D

Really though 130rpm for finer threads is quite manageable. For example a common thread size of 20 tpi running at 130 rpm is going to take 20/130 minutes or 0.15 minutes or just over 9 seconds to travel 1 inch. A more coarse 16 tpi still takes 7.4 seconds to do 1inch of threads. So unless you're working in towards a pretty tight fit against a shoulder there's more time than you might think.

I would not suggest doing a thread in tight to a shoulder for your first thread even so. Lots going on and it would not be that tough to have an "oopsie". I'm sure we've all had a few when learning to thread.

There's also some tricks you can do that allow you to thread out away from the chuck by running the lathe in reverse and mounting the threading cutter upside down or by putting a right side up cutter on the rear of the part. Look up on You Tube for something along the lines of "threading in reverse" "Threading away from the chuck" . You'll get a bunch of them to watch which I think you'll find very helpful.

I also found a video that shows an OUTBOARD CRANK HANDLE TO CUT SINGLE POINT THREADS (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksCd9FfjUFQ). Note that due to lost motion in the gear train it is imperative that you back out the cutter for the return or it'll make a mess of the threads you just cut. He mentions this in passing as he backs out of the cut to reverse the carriage at around the 3rd pass. But it's VERY important or it'll basically ruin your thread. For the same reason once you start a pass you can pause but do NOT back up. It's not a tap or a die. You need to do keep the gearing all loaded for the duration of each pass.

PStechPaul
02-10-2019, 07:48 PM
My first attempt at thread chasing on my HF 9x20 lathe was cutting 3/4"-8 LH square threads in 4140 steel for chuck screws. This video shows what happened at 130 RPM, and how I switched to using a hand operated spindle crank, for a good arm workout:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keaMJ-3qawk

So before I could do that, I had to make and install a tumbler gear to reverse direction of travel, as well as making the crank.

The whole project, almost a half-hour video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fO_WpIo5gzs&t=2s

I ground my own HSS cutter(s) for this. The 130 RPM was just a bit too fast for my comfort. It was perfectly fine when I chased 3/8"-16 UNC threads in mild steel for my machine shop mini-vise project.

Here are some images of the threading job, but on the school shop's Clausing lathe:

http://enginuitysystems.com/pix/tools/Threading_Clauson_1623.jpg

http://enginuitysystems.com/pix/tools/Threading_Clauson_1624.jpg

Note that I had the cutting tool upside down, and the spindle running in reverse. The carriage moves to the right where there is plenty of space and time to stop cutting. This also allows for keeping the threading half-nuts engaged so you don't need to use the threading dial.

Jim Williams
02-10-2019, 07:49 PM
I have a small multiple purpose machine named Astoba. For threading, it has a hand crank keyed to the spindle. With well sharpened and positioned cutting tools, it does a marvelous job of threading. I intend to make a hand crank for the spindle of my Harrison 10AA. Hand crank threading takes the anxiety out of threading.

BCRider
02-11-2019, 02:40 AM
Paul, I noticed in the video that you dubbed over with the fact that this was your first ever single point in the lathe? Talk about diving in the deep end of the pool with concrete overboots ! ! ! ! :D 3/4-8 AND an Acme or square thread AND left hand to boot! That was a bucket load of difficulty! ! !

I was going to ask about your bench wobbling around then you dubbed in a note about needing to fix the legs or set them up with a wedge... .:D

PStechPaul
02-11-2019, 03:18 AM
Necessity (or at least desire) is the mother of ambition. I didn't absolutely need new chuck screws, but I wanted them, and I enjoy a challenge. I did practice and make mistakes first, on a piece of Delrin.

http://enginuitysystems.com/pix/tools/Square_Threading_1185_800p.jpg

http://enginuitysystems.com/pix/tools/Square_Threading_1194_800p.jpg

http://enginuitysystems.com/pix/tools/Square_Threading_1195_800p.jpg

First attempt on steel:
http://enginuitysystems.com/pix/tools/Square_Threading_1201_800p.jpg

BCRider
02-11-2019, 02:00 PM
Nice... And from the pictures of the plastic it looks like some practice and learning proved useful.

I have to admit to skipping ahead to the end and condensed your half hour video down to about 5 minutes stopping where the preview still seemed like something interesting. So I got the very last still of the fit in the jaws without the earlier one showing it WAS a jaw. So I thought it was a half nut. Now that I see it's for a four jaw that's even doubly more interesting.

Leadfootin
02-11-2019, 02:10 PM
Watch the attached video from Joe Pieczynski on threading in the lathe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-dqOi_z5bk
He shows how to thread away from the tailstock as well as many tips. His second threading video does away with most of the threading math involved as well.
I can vouch for this as I have done a number of threads this way before I got my Hardinge and still do most this way today. Toughest I did was a left hand inside Whitworth form, special for a pre-war Rolls-Royce rear axle yoke puller. Had to tighten release bolt over 100ft-lbs so it had to be right!

danlb
02-11-2019, 02:28 PM
Ronnie, it's not as hard as it seems. Most single point threaded parts include a "runout" area where you can safely disengage the half-nuts without cutting extra threads. The picture below has a VERY exaggerated runnout area. In practice the runout area should be a few threads long and as deep as the bottom of the thread. While you are learning you can make that area wider as you build up confidence.

In use, you watch the thread and as soon as your cutter enters the runout t area you disengage the halfnuts. This will stop the carriage immediately while the spindle its still spinning. There were several JET 9x20 models built throughout the years. One model has a safety clutch that comes into play when it's running at it's lowest speed. When you crash the tool it will stop the spindle and carriage immediately and make a terrible ratcheting noise. This is alarming but causes no problems. :) The one at http://www.micro-machine-shop.com/9x20_lathe.htm has the safety clutch from the EMCO Compact 8 that it was copied from.

http://www.detercoonline.com/images/stories/virtuemart/product/Gagemaker-BR-2001-on-Part.jpg

BCRider
02-11-2019, 03:29 PM
Yep, I've done both styles of ending the thread.

One method is a runout like shown where you pull back the cross slide then shut off the lathe or disengage the half nuts. It produces a long tapering runout of the thread as shown. Or it can be as abrupt a ramp out as a 1/3 to 1/2 turn of the part and thread. Depends on a lot of things and some small amount of practice where you run the lathe in threading mode but don't actually make a cut a few times but have a mark on the part so you have a target of where to run out then pull the half nuts. At 130 RPM it does not need to be all that rushed either. You still want to do the actions smartly but it doesn't need to be lightning quick either. And as mentioned if you're doing the threads at something like 16 TPI or finer it gives you more time.

The other way is a relief groove as shown by Paul above. When I do a relief groove I like to make them about 1.5 to 2 threads wide or even more if I have the room. Otherwise I'll go for a single thread groove and use an extra slow back gear speed. That way I've got a decent sized target and if I'm out by a touch it will still stop in the groove. The nice thing about a relief groove is that we don't need to do 2 things more or less at once. With the taper out we have to back off the cross slide wheel then disengage the half nut. With the relief groove we simply have to open the half nuts on cue then breath again.;0

If you're doing a fairly short thread and it's only 4 or 5 turns a trick you can use is to engage the half nuts with the cutter well off the work. Like set it up a good half or one inch out. This will give you a few seconds to get the half nuts engaged and get in synch with the pace of the travel. After all there's TWO specific targets we need to hit. The first is to engage the half nuts right on one of the threading index dial's marks. Then we need to disengage in the groove. It takes a moment after the engaging to shift mental gears and get ready for the disengage. Starting up the cut with some time wasting air cutting gives us a couple of precious seconds to get the shift in focus smoothly.

It won't take long before you find yourself using less and less wasted time by starting the passes well off the part. But it's good to make up some threaded things ahead of time that do not rely on really tight timing such as threading up to a shoulder. But do mark off a target length for the threading so you're working to a limit instead of just free practicing. It's good to impose the limit so you learn more and get the feel for ending the thread where and how you want it to end.

RB211
02-11-2019, 06:29 PM
Another good way to end a thread is to post something political, religious, or racist.

BCRider
02-11-2019, 06:59 PM
Another good way to end a thread is to post something political, religious, or racist.

Was this thread not derailed enough to be worth of HSM? Just wondering where your comment came from? It's by far the most on topic thread running at the moment.... up to now of course.

daveo
02-11-2019, 08:31 PM
Another good way to end a thread is to post something political, religious, or racist.

Wow, you should probably head back to facebook....

lynnl
02-11-2019, 09:09 PM
...looks like we have in our midst a distinguished graduate of the 3 phase light bulb school of forum etiquette.

I've always preferred to set up travel indicator on a Mighty Mag base, attached to the ways to start reading about .100 before my target end point. That gives plenty of time to get ready to wind out the X-feed and release the half nuts. Of course it helps that my lathe can be slowed down to 25 rpm too.

PStechPaul
02-11-2019, 09:55 PM
Maybe a good shop project would be a limit switch to turn off the lathe motor and stop carriage travel when it gets close to the chuck or the tool goes past a safe place on the work. Some ideas:

http://www.opensourcemachinetools.org/archive-manuals/lathe-limit-switch.pdf

http://www.chaski.org/homemachinist/viewtopic.php?t=95191

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/archive/index.php/t-62726.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY6YHA4upRU (mechanical release)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjbvgZIr6CU (electrical stop with a DC brake motor)

Most lathes with induction motors won't stop quickly when power is removed. But it might be possible to rig a mechanical clutch or brake that will stop the spindle faster.

true temper
02-11-2019, 10:27 PM
This is my favorite set up, would love to have one. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sn8av4Y1crU

RB211
02-11-2019, 11:27 PM
Put the threading tool upside down and back of the workpiece, reverse the spindle direction, and turn a thread going away from the headstock. No more danger of crashing. See? Thread isn't derailed...

umahunter
02-11-2019, 11:55 PM
Another good way to end a thread is to post something political, religious, or racist.

Lol guess I'm the only asshole that chuckled :cool:

RichR
02-12-2019, 12:13 AM
Put the threading tool upside down and back of the workpiece, reverse the spindle direction, and turn a thread going away from the headstock. No more danger of crashing. See? Thread isn't derailed...
You got 2 out of 3 right. Either turn the tool upside down or move it to the back of the workpiece, not both.

RB211
02-12-2019, 06:55 AM
You got 2 out of 3 right. Either turn the tool upside down or move it to the back of the workpiece, not both.

Thank you

wdtom44
02-12-2019, 10:54 AM
I generally don't bother with the relief cut at the end of the thread. I disengage the half nuts at the proper time and by the time I get to backing out the tool the work has revolved a few times and cut it's own relief groove. As long as you disengage at nearly the same point each time this works, for me anyway.

danlb
02-12-2019, 11:42 AM
I generally don't bother with the relief cut at the end of the thread. I disengage the half nuts at the proper time and by the time I get to backing out the tool the work has revolved a few times and cut it's own relief groove. As long as you disengage at nearly the same point each time this works, for me anyway.

That is a valid way to do it, but the relief groove has a second purpose. If cut to the depth of the thread's root, you will be able to see when you have cut deep enough.

Dan

BCRider
02-12-2019, 02:17 PM
I generally don't bother with the relief cut at the end of the thread. I disengage the half nuts at the proper time and by the time I get to backing out the tool the work has revolved a few times and cut it's own relief groove. As long as you disengage at nearly the same point each time this works, for me anyway.

I do that a lot too. It sounds like it could be catastrophic. But really it only takes a quickly learned bit of timing to do this well enough.

Someone mentioned using a dial gauge that the carriage pushes into and you back out and open the half nuts at some reading. That's a great idea too. But it doesn't need to be a dial gauge. A mag base or a ruler or just about anything that you can think of which will act as a marker to show that the carriage has traveled to a given position is enough. It might be a rod that will pass over the edge of the carriage and when you see them start to overlap you back out and open the nuts as soon as that rod ar bar or whatever lines up with the indication. In fact a super simple method would be to wipe the flat bed way rail for the tail stock and put a felt tip marker line on the bed. When the edge of the carriage lines up you back out and open the half nuts. Working to a mark like that will let you perform this so closely to the same each time that you'll get great results.

Working to a mark like that is still no good for threading right to a shoulder though. For that you're looking at some way to work with the lathe in reverse or to go for the hand crank.

I don't recall what sort of spindle attachment method is used on those 9x20 lathes. If it's a threaded spindle be sure to attach the chuck a bit more firmly and use light cuts only during any reverse running operations. But you can do it with a bit of care.

PStechPaul
02-12-2019, 06:25 PM
My Harbor Freight 9x20 lathe has a clamp to hold the chuck to the spindle:

http://enginuitysystems.com/pix/tools/Lathe_1002_800p.jpg

http://enginuitysystems.com/pix/tools/Lathe_1004_800p.jpg

http://enginuitysystems.com/pix/tools/Lathe_1008_800p.jpg

http://enginuitysystems.com/pix/tools/Lathe_Chuck_Removal.jpg

lynnl
02-12-2019, 11:43 PM
....
Someone mentioned using a dial gauge that the carriage pushes into and you back out and open the half nuts at some reading. That's a great idea too. But it doesn't need to be a dial gauge. A mag base or a ruler or just about anything that you can think of which will act as a marker to show that the carriage has traveled to a given position is enough. It might be a rod that will pass over the edge of the carriage and when you see them start to overlap you back out and open the nuts as soon as that rod ar bar or whatever lines up with the indication. In fact a super simple method would be to wipe the flat bed way rail for the tail stock and put a felt tip marker line on the bed. When the edge of the carriage lines up you back out and open the half nuts. Working to a mark like that will let you perform this so closely to the same each time that you'll get great results.

Working to a mark like that is still no good for threading right to a shoulder though. For that you're looking at some way to work with the lathe in reverse or to go for the hand crank.

.

With the DTI set up to give me .100 or so lead time I can comfortably thread up to within 5 or 10 thousandths of a shoulder, if need be, unless it's a really fast thread, e.g. 4 or 5 tpi. I wouldn't want to try that with a felt tip pen mark or ruler as my guide.
Matching that fine point of a DTI needle with an index mark offers a lot more precision.

lakeside53
02-13-2019, 12:38 AM
Put a switch on the bed with adjustable actuator rod on the carriage. Connect to audible alert. Way easier to reliably flip out the half nuts on a sound that by eye/indicator. Easier on the brain... Try it... I did on my prior lathe (add to list for the new one). Shockingly easier to coordinate.

lynnl
02-13-2019, 01:12 AM
Put a switch on the bed with adjustable actuator rod on the carriage. Connect to audible alert. Way easier to reliably flip out the half nuts on a sound that by eye/indicator. Easier on the brain... Try it... I did on my prior lathe (add to list for the new one). Shockingly easier to coordinate.

I think I'll have to disagree with that. Using the DTI needle, I'm not actually flipping the handle at one particular index mark as much as timing my hand movement to match the needle advance, so that I will have completed the flip at the point zero (or whatever target I've chosen) is reached. With the approach of the needle I can start preparing mentally, unlike the sound which would come without warning.

But, choose whatever works best..

lakeside53
02-13-2019, 02:28 AM
Try it sometime. The point is you don't have to prepare mentally.. just be ready to react. I done zillions the way you do, and still do often. Once you have a DRO it's really damn hard to track the mesmerizing numbers the same way as with a DTI; audible works.

MattiJ
02-13-2019, 02:41 AM
Put a switch on the bed with adjustable actuator rod on the carriage. Connect to audible alert. Way easier to reliably flip out the half nuts on a sound that by eye/indicator. Easier on the brain... Try it... I did on my prior lathe (add to list for the new one). Shockingly easier to coordinate.

Sounds like (pun intended) really good tip. With beeper you don't need to keep your eyes nailed to the indicator. :thumbsup

Small mag base, microswitch, battery and suitably loud buzzer are now on my ever growing project list :D