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Dave C
02-13-2019, 02:30 PM
This pic was posted on another thread and got me to thinking I need to make something similar. My 13x40 lathe is currently sitting bass ackwards on it's base cabinets so I can find and fix an oil leak, and also install a DRO scale on the back side.

http://www.chaski.org/homemachinist/download/file.php?id=12286&t=1&sid=933f3ce85813e63e807c50c81d58d0f2
Problem is my lathe is really top heavy and the first attempt at lifting showed an obvious need to do something to keep it from trying to roll over. I rigged it to fix that problem and got it raised enough to to spin it around so I could work on the back side. The pucker factor came into play because the lathe had to be pulled back far enough to clear the cabinet behind it while rotating on the crane's hook. I was worried that the ancient swivel shackle used might come apart and drop the machine. I won't lift the lathe again without a safer rigging system and a swivel that I can rely on.
I like the method in the pic, but will add something to insure rollover will not happen. I have searched on line for swivel eyes or hooks and found prices ranging from a few bucks to hundreds. I need a new plan. Suggestions anyone?

old mart
02-13-2019, 02:45 PM
Looking at the picture, I can see an easy way to raise the lifting eye height. With longer vertical bolts, you could have much thicker pads between the channel section and the bed. This would bring the height of the eye well above the headstock and lower the COG.
Don't forget, there are swivel hooks as well as eyes.

A.K. Boomer
02-13-2019, 02:51 PM
Why not just drill and tap the ends of a piece of faced off 1 1/2 and extend the eye to the needed length ?

bandsawguy
02-13-2019, 02:58 PM
When I need to move stuff like a lathe or mill I usually just use the pinch bar method. No extra drama needed.

old mart
02-13-2019, 03:02 PM
That would work well, any stiff extension to lower the COG with whatever is available is the way to go.

elf
02-13-2019, 03:49 PM
When I need to move stuff like a lathe or mill I usually just use the pinch bar method. No extra drama needed.
It would be rather hard to rotate the lathe relative to its base with a pinch bar :rolleyes:

true temper
02-13-2019, 04:01 PM
This is the way I rig my Nardini to pick it up when I move it.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190213/0650522f71d72e3f5e7f5f9328222d8b.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

TOOLZNTHINGS
02-13-2019, 08:06 PM
This is the way I rig my Nardini to pick it up when I move it.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190213/0650522f71d72e3f5e7f5f9328222d8b.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is the best way and probably safer and less stress on the lathe bed.

JoeLee
02-13-2019, 08:16 PM
This pic was posted on another thread and got me to thinking I need to make something similar. My 13x40 lathe is currently sitting bass ackwards on it's base cabinets so I can find and fix an oil leak, and also install a DRO scale on the back side.

http://www.chaski.org/homemachinist/download/file.php?id=12286&t=1&sid=933f3ce85813e63e807c50c81d58d0f2
Problem is my lathe is really top heavy and the first attempt at lifting showed an obvious need to do something to keep it from trying to roll over. I rigged it to fix that problem and got it raised enough to to spin it around so I could work on the back side. The pucker factor came into play because the lathe had to be pulled back far enough to clear the cabinet behind it while rotating on the crane's hook. I was worried that the ancient swivel shackle used might come apart and drop the machine. I won't lift the lathe again without a safer rigging system and a swivel that I can rely on.
I like the method in the pic, but will add something to insure rollover will not happen. I have searched on line for swivel eyes or hooks and found prices ranging from a few bucks to hundreds. I need a new plan. Suggestions anyone? I would buy a new swivel shackle. If you buy a good quality one they have ratings for straight vertical lifting and offset lifting. Swivel shackles I believe are just in line pulling to be coupled in between chains. Hoist rings have vertical or straight and offset ratings.
You could also use a hoist ring.
A nylon sling will twist and you won't need any type of swivel coupling.

JL.....

Dave C
02-13-2019, 09:35 PM
Thanks to all for your ideas which are much appreciated. I don't know why I didn't think about using a sling, but that seems like the way to go.

ulav8r
02-13-2019, 09:40 PM
Moving the eye higher will not change the center of gravity much unless you also change the point it is attached to. A large bar chucked up and tied to the lifting eye would move the center of gravity higher. Don't try to support any of the weight with the chuck, just prevent it from tipping.

darryl
02-13-2019, 09:48 PM
One thing about the method shown is that you can find the exact placement on the bed for a straight-up lift- then mark it. I agree with getting the eye up higher. Perhaps the upper piece of channel could have some flat bar welded to it on each side, and they bend inwards, then up again where they touch. A hole through both at the top lets you use a hook- and perhaps then you upgrade to a swivel hook.

Edwin Dirnbeck
02-14-2019, 09:14 AM
Moving the eye higher will not change the center of gravity much unless you also change the point it is attached to. A large bar chucked up and tied to the lifting eye would move the center of gravity higher. Don't try to support any of the weight with the chuck, just prevent it from tipping.

Use a 3/4 threaded rod 12 inches long. Trap it tightly with 2 nuts on the channel iron. atttach the eye with a coupling nut.This setup WILL keep it from tipping when lifting .If the lathe has a typical stupid Chinese design ,the motor might be hanging way out on the side of the headstock.In this case ,he should move the hole location in the channel back toward the rear splashguard.Once it is all balanced,there will be very little force trying to BEND the 3/4 rod. He is only going to lift and rotate the lathe ,not travel cross country.Edwin Dirnbeck

wdtom44
02-14-2019, 10:32 AM
If you use chain to lift you can probably rotate the lathe 180 deg. without needing a swivel hook.

projectnut
02-14-2019, 10:44 AM
I have severaal different length and weight capacity slings for moving, assembling, and repositioning machinery. They are relatively cheap from HF. You could probably buy a couple for less than it would cost to make a lifting device:

https://www.harborfreight.com/catalogsearch/result/index/?dir=asc&order=EAScore%2Cf%2CEAFeatured+Weight%2Cf%2CSale+R ank%2Cf&q=lifting+sling

There are also some available from Northern Tool:

https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/NTESearch?storeId=6970&ipp=48&Ntt=lifting+sling

A.K. Boomer
02-14-2019, 10:44 AM
Moving the eye higher will not change the center of gravity much unless you also change the point it is attached to. A large bar chucked up and tied to the lifting eye would move the center of gravity higher. Don't try to support any of the weight with the chuck, just prevent it from tipping.

It's a good thought - toss in a center at the other end and your not really stressing anything as your not lifting with it like you stated,

raising the eye will change the center of gravity IF the base point is rigid, it's allot better than installing more shims under the stress plate that the eye is originally connected to as those shims will now be subject to wondering out sideways, still - if the tipping load is way off it may overpower the base point and bend it,

I like the method you brought up and think its one step better in the right direction... good duty, the only problem im seeing with this is some "listing" from one side or the other - it's a given if the lathe is top heavy and is leaning into the "guide bar" could be little or could be allot depending on just how out of balance it is and the vector forces it's going to take to have to compensate it...

Arcane
02-14-2019, 11:00 AM
The center of gravity is a fixed point. You can only change it by adding mass and the mass of the metal you talking about adding is insignificant because of it's quantity and it's position.

A.K. Boomer
02-14-2019, 11:23 AM
not so if you create a rigid attachment - now your changing the relationship between the fixed point OF it's center of gravity...

cameron
02-14-2019, 11:34 AM
I have severaal different length and weight capacity slings for moving, assembling, and repositioning machinery. They are relatively cheap from HF. You could probably buy a couple for less than it would cost to make a lifting device:

https://www.harborfreight.com/catalogsearch/result/index/?dir=asc&order=EAScore%2Cf%2CEAFeatured+Weight%2Cf%2CSale+R ank%2Cf&q=lifting+sling

There are also some available from Northern Tool:

https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/NTESearch?storeId=6970&ipp=48&Ntt=lifting+sling

Slings will pick up the weight below the center of gravity of the lathe, and there is a risk that the lathe will roll in the slings if you haven't provided a means to prevent that.

Arcane
02-14-2019, 11:40 AM
not so if you create a rigid attachment - now your changing the relationship between the fixed point OF it's center of gravity...

The rigid attachment is a lever arm that prevents it from rolling. It changes nothing about where the center of gravity actually is.

A.K. Boomer
02-14-2019, 11:51 AM
The rigid attachment is a lever arm that prevents it from rolling. It changes nothing about where the center of gravity actually is.

Your looking at it the wrong way - it's not a lever arm at all - if its truly rigid then you need to start looking at it as part of the machine, my initial suggestion is rigid (up to the point of yield strength)

Ulav8r's suggestion is not rigid but does allow stability - as long as the chucks center line is higher than the lathes center of gravity... for this you have a point but again nobody is saying this is a rigid set up...


I did go back and read his post - he did indeed state that it would move the center of gravity higher so if this is what your talking about your correct, as long as you don't claim this is a rigid set up...

old mart
02-14-2019, 12:01 PM
So many people don't seem to grasp simple things, it amazes me.

darryl
02-14-2019, 10:27 PM
Center of gravity doesn't change, but the higher your solid lifting point, the better control you have against the lathe rolling. I think at the spindle axis line, you are definitely well enough above the CG for safety. That's only what- between say 3 inches and 7 inches above the top of the bed. Not much material involved in making the clamp-on lift point, but some time involved. Whether it's worth it-

Depending on where the center of gravity is from left to right- perhaps just a little in front of the chuck- you could mount an eye hook in the chuck, pass a lifting rope through it, through a gap in the bed, around a metal bar under the bed, and back up through the eye again. The bottom of the bed will be carrying the weight, while the eye will be controlling roll. You would probably move the carriage to the tail stock end to balance the weight, and you might still have it heavy on the head stock end. Keep the eye in close to the chuck, and if it tilts low on the head end as you lift it won't be by much and it won't matter much either.

QSIMDO
02-14-2019, 10:54 PM
You guys never used or heard of lifting beams or spreader bars?!
Look 'em up and learn how to use them before you kill yourselves or someone else.

bborr01
02-14-2019, 11:28 PM
I only read the first page but if it was me I'd take a piece of 1 1/2 inch tubing about six inches to a foot long and weld it on to the top piece if channel where you have the eye bolt now. Cap off the tubing with a piece of 1/2" flat stock with a tapped hole for the eye hook. The lathe can't tip over when you lift it from being top heavy.

Brian

bandsawguy
02-15-2019, 06:25 AM
It would be rather hard to rotate the lathe relative to its base with a pinch bar :rolleyes:

You are correct. I somehow lost that detail when think about moving the lathe.

boats
02-15-2019, 08:06 AM
One thing I always did heavy lifting on and off ships is double the gear each able to carry the load. If you use straps which I recommend it’s possable to run 2nd safety strap just in case. Straps strong and easy to rig, if they have a cut even small they will unzip with weights much less than expected.

Have seen many swivels and eyes fail don’t trust them unless SWL is way more than the job and they have been carefully inspected. Most are cheaply made with no certification

Boats

boats
02-15-2019, 08:11 AM
Another thing about straps if you lift from the bottom of a top heavy load they should be “married” at the top. Close to lift as possable.

Wrap tie the straps together with a rope tie., lift still from the bottom married together at the Top protects against tipping.

All kinds of strap tricks, quick way to marry is twist together.

Boats

Glug
02-15-2019, 09:57 AM
A well planned and executed lift often seems very obvious and easy after the fact. Like, what was all the fuss about?

If you have a Rural King near you, their prices on cheap import 2x6 slings are quite a bit cheaper than HF. Sleeved slings are nice but they hide damage and the sleeve often results in abusive use - like that raggedy sling earlier in the thread. That thing might still be good for jerking on shrubs, but certainly not lifting.

If you go to an appliance store and ask to rummage through their boxes, you'll find all sorts of high density edge protectors, some plastic, some fiber. Those can work well, to a point, to protect straps from sharp edges. At the dollar store you can sometimes find heavy carpet 'welcome' mat remnants for a buck that have a really tough backing that is difficult to cut. Those are must around the shop for multiple uses..

Some short lathes, like my 5200 lbs 14x30 Lodge & Shipley AVS, will not balance when lifted at any point along the bed. It had to be slinged around the base of the machine, and up over the headstock. It can be a challenge to find a sling path that does not damage features. It is also necessary to pad all corners well, or your slings will fail. Using ratchet straps (not the garbage 1" but 2") to maintain the position of the slings is often required. 1" ratchet straps are useful for holding your edge protectors in place. Sharp edges, at high PSI, can shear through edge protectors without warning.

The L&S lift (like my 10ee) was greatly complicated by a very large electrical cabinet, bolted snug against the back of the headstack. The front chip pan was also in the way, but was fairly easily removed. Another snag, the entire front of the bed on that machine is contiguous - no gaps.

When lifting you want the hook above the CG. The load will want to shift so the CG is above the hook.

Not yet mentioned in this thread are the challenges that can occur due to feed rod and lead screw clearance..

Ideally the factory will instruct on how to lift the machine. But sometimes subsequent modification will change the requirements.

https://www.use.com/images/s_2/544ac8e7ee52cefbcc44.jpg

A.K. Boomer
02-15-2019, 10:08 AM
Glug that pic looks dangerous to me - they did cover their butt in the large case letters saying "MAKE CERTAIN THAT THE LOAD IN ON BALANCE BEFORE LIFTING"

I think if you lifted that machine as is it would immediately slide down to the tailstock end due to the load being way off as the lions share is at the business end of the machine...

old mart
02-15-2019, 11:15 AM
The only concern with that vintage Monarch lifting is balancing the left and right ends of the lathe. Because the stand is heavy cast iron, the COG is below the wooden block. If the same lift is tried with a lathe with a tin plate stand, it would be dangerous.

bborr01
02-15-2019, 01:45 PM
I've moved several lathes in the last few years. Often I use a strap around the headstock end but sometimes I use a pinch bar to lift the headstock end up on to boards and then get a pallet jack under it and put a dolly under the tailstock end. I just sold a 13" South Bend and moved it with a pallet jack to the front of my shop and then used a strap and my front end loader to load it on a trailer.

Brian

Doozer
02-15-2019, 03:03 PM
I have a concrete floor in my shop
and it is easy for me to use 5/8" solid
round bar to move machines on in my shop.
If you need it cheap and need it now,
you can buy ground rods in the electrical
section of Lowes and Home Depot.
I have moved my 9000 pound Giddings
Lewis boring mill on 5/8" rods and a
pinch bar, one inch at a time. I even
turned it 90 around a corner by sliding
things about and re-positioning.
With the machine only 5/8" off the ground,
it is safer should top heavy machines decide
to do something funny and tip suddenly.
They can't tip too much that way.
With a small Clausing lathe like that,
moving it should be fairly straight forward.
I believe you are over-thinking it.

--Doozer