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Paul Alciatore
02-15-2019, 02:41 AM
I am looking seriously at purchasing a decent milling vise for my Grizzly mill. It is a square column model (G0484). The table measures 32.25" x 9.375". It has a maximum of 15.5" spindle to the table and 10.25" spindle to column. I think those are the important dimensions for my question.

What I am wondering is what size milling vise would be right for this mill. Up to now I have been using a 3" toolmaker's vise and a 4" drill press style vise, but they are no where near what I would call full size for this machine. The thing is, milling vises are built a lot more robust and, for a given inch size, they can be a lot bigger than these simpler styles. So, I am wondering for a machine this size, would a 6" milling vise be OK? Or would it be too large and awkward to use? Would a 5" be better? Or would I be happier with a 4"? I don't think the piggy bank is going to tolerate anything larger than 6" so no sense even talking about them.

CCWKen
02-15-2019, 07:47 AM
Since you already have a tool makers vise, I'd give thought to a 2-piece vise. I sure dred pulling my 50lb+ vise off the table. That was my reason for mounting it off-center and allowing room for the RT or DH on the other half. A 2-piece can allow you to clamp a variety of vises to the table quickly. I've seen Stefan Gotteswinter use the combination many time on YT. I don't think he even owns a full size machinist vise.

Stefan's YT - https://www.youtube.com/user/syyl/videos?disable_polymer=1

boats
02-15-2019, 07:50 AM
If buying used off EBay and want the best Kurt 6 inch is less expensive than smaller or larger ones. I use a Kurt 4 inch on my Rockwell 6 1/2 inch wide table it’s about the largest it will handle. Cost me half again more than a 6

My old mill drill a Grizzly, handled a Kurt copy 6 inch fine. It was about the biggest I wanted to lift on and off. Look at the weights before you buy. Also consider mounting it without the swivel base. Something rarely used and adds a lot of weight.

Combo R/T Mill vise can be useful. I have a old 3 inch I mount in combination with a 6 inch Rotary when the work calls for both clamping methods. No matter what I lift them on and off a lot best advise is pay attention to weight.

Boats

Baz
02-15-2019, 07:59 AM
Unless you are planning on making youtube videos, in which case an 8 inch Kurt is mandatory, you might be better off with two identical smaller vices. You might not have the money for them together so get a make that will still be around when you have the funds. If you are thinking you need a 6in because item X is too big for your 4in what are you going to do when you have an item too big for the 6in. But with two identical vices you can set them up say 6 in apart and grip a 16 in part better than a 6 in would.

CCWKen
02-15-2019, 08:12 AM
If you are thinking you need a 6in because item X is too big for your 4in what are you going to do when you have an item too big for the 6in.
You improvise. ;)

(This is before I got my Kurt.)

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=2789&d=1525201482

JCByrd24
02-15-2019, 08:14 AM
I'd go with a 4" or 5". You could probably get away with a 6" but it will likely limit your travel some because the vice will hang off the back of the table. The Shars 440V will be my next vice, it opens to 6" even though it's a 4" wide vice, and I've heard great things about them. My table is around 8" wide. A pair of those would be quite nice. The 550V would also work for you but it doesn't open any wider and weighs 50lbs instead of 27lb.

Tungsten dipper
02-15-2019, 08:17 AM
I have a 6” on my Grizzly. A little big but works.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190215/a7fb64af853803f5941d3b47a7543a95.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

3 Phase Lightbulb
02-15-2019, 08:39 AM
A 5" might be too big, but something like this sounds like it would be an upgrade from what you're currently using. And I doubt you'll get something better for less than $100 shipped for the 5"

Link to the 3", 4", 5", and 6" versions:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07F8PJXJP?aaxitk=TAkV77BN8rZTvQs9mxrBkw

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71jSxHujUnL._SL1500_.jpg

wdtom44
02-15-2019, 09:53 AM
I have a Bridgeport that came with my Rockwell verticle mill. Sure it is big for the mill and heavy, but when I put on one of the smaller vises I have acquired over the years, soon I am wishing the Bridgeport was back. Not only for opening width but also for jaw height. Both seem important when thinking larger vises. Jaw heights are not all the same.

boats
02-15-2019, 09:59 AM
Setting up large flat work I use 123 blocks and hold down clamps, but you can run Kurt jaws outside and clamp large plates. I may try it one time.

All things considered, your mill, used 6 inch Kurt is the best Buy.

Boats

Mcgyver
02-15-2019, 10:11 AM
I agree with the Kurt or clone 6" vise, its a really nice vise, opens 8.75". My full sized XLO table is 9" so its not going to seem out of place.

old mart
02-15-2019, 11:07 AM
I use two 4" Bison vices which open to about 3 1/2" and one 5" exactly like 3pLB's in post #8. The 5" opens much wider, but is as much as I would want to lift about, especially if the swivel base is fitted.

Arcane
02-15-2019, 02:37 PM
I have two mill vises, a 4" and a 6". I use the 4" one the most and switch to the 6" when I need more opening than the 4" has. I don't think I've ever needed the 6" for the width of the jaws. (BP clone mill with a 9" x 49" table)

Cuttings
02-15-2019, 03:06 PM
My mill table is about the same size as yours. I found that a 4" is about as big as you want to go without it hanging over the the back and front of the table too far.

BCRider
02-15-2019, 03:18 PM
I'd go with a 4" or 5". You could probably get away with a 6" but it will likely limit your travel some because the vice will hang off the back of the table. The Shars 440V will be my next vice, it opens to 6" even though it's a 4" wide vice, and I've heard great things about them. My table is around 8" wide. A pair of those would be quite nice. The 550V would also work for you but it doesn't open any wider and weighs 50lbs instead of 27lb.

THIS for the money.

When I got my own new vise a while back to go with my mini knee mill (same as the Grizz G0731 but with a 6 x 29 table size)I was keen on a 6" vise. But when I looked at and measured them in person I quickly realized that it would either stick out the back of the table and restrict the travel. Or it would hang out so far off the front that it would be in the way and seriously close to tipping over and falling when not clamped down.

Now you have the 9" table. I envy that.... So you would likely be able to use a 6". But consider also how much vertical room it takes up. You might find that it becomes an issue.

It's easy to say to just clamp it where it is flush with the rear of the table. But that ain't so easy if we want to use the stock clamp down ears. And that was the problem. The 6 inch vise on my 6 inch table with just three slots had only two slot options for clamping the vise in place. One which would tip over and fall off the front and the other which stuck out about 2" off the rear of the table and would hit the column early. The third slow closest to the rear edge would be even worse. So I went with the 4 inch import "Kurt style" which fits pretty well on my mill's table and with the stock slots.....

.... but that was before I learned about the Shars 440v. It's more money than the cheap Kurt imports but the 6" opening is a class leader among the 4" wide jaw vise options. That and the reviews and videos of these 'V series 4 and 6" vises and how accurately ground they are is impressive.

By all means a smaller lightly used Kurt if you can find one used. But if that sort of price doesn't scare you away then I'd also consider the 440v.

3 Phase Lightbulb
02-15-2019, 03:29 PM
6" Kurts look somewhat big even on my CNC Bridgeport which has a 9"x48" table

http://www.bbssystem.com/pictures/kurt7.jpg

BCRider
02-15-2019, 03:44 PM
Are the two on the ends some sort of pre-angle lock design? What's with the dovetail ram sticking out?

And yeah, seeing this picture I'm thinking that a 4" or maybe a 5" might be a better option. This picture shows just what I was describing. It's on the middle of three Tslots and is sticking out the back of the table. And if we tried to move it to line up with the front slot we'd better be wearing steel toe boots when we forget and reach for something to bolt it down with.

3 Phase Lightbulb
02-15-2019, 03:52 PM
THIS for the money.

When I got my own new vise a while back to go with my mini knee mill (same as the Grizz G0731 but with a 6 x 29 table size)I was keen on a 6" vise. But when I looked at and measured them in person I quickly realized that it would either stick out the back of the table and restrict the travel.

The G0728 is probably more representative of your machine than the G0731:

https://www.grizzly.com/products/Grizzly-Vertical-Mill/G0728

3 Phase Lightbulb
02-15-2019, 03:57 PM
Are the two on the ends some sort of pre-angle lock design? What's with the dovetail ram sticking out?

And yeah, seeing this picture I'm thinking that a 4" or maybe a 5" might be a better option. This picture shows just what I was describing. It's on the middle of three Tslots and is sticking out the back of the table. And if we tried to move it to line up with the front slot we'd better be wearing steel toe boots when we forget and reach for something to bolt it down with.

The two end vises are a matched pair of D675s and the middle is a D688. You can see the differences between D675 and D688 from Kurt here:

https://www.kurtworkholding.com/documents/catalogs/sheets/sheet_D675_D688_comp_013012.pdf

tomato coupe
02-15-2019, 03:58 PM
Are the two on the ends some sort of pre-angle lock design? What's with the dovetail ram sticking out?
Most Kurt vises (and clones) don't have that protrusion, so the base is the limiting factor on the back side. You could easily use the front-most slot on the table without endangering your toes and retain almost all of your y-range.

BCRider
02-15-2019, 04:10 PM
I know. That's why I'm asking if these are older pre angle lock style vises? But the document in 3PL's link seems to make it look like both are current. So why would anyone want the style where that nut ram sticks out?

tomato coupe
02-15-2019, 04:15 PM
I know. That's why I'm asking if these are older pre angle lock style vises?

I think D675 vises have always had that feature. Keep in mind that the protrusion disappears as you open the vise, so it rarely is an issue.

3 Phase Lightbulb
02-15-2019, 04:20 PM
I know. That's why I'm asking if these are older pre angle lock style vises?

The main functional difference between D675 and D688 is the D675 fully protects the screw and is/was more popular around here on CNC VMCs with flood coolant. The screw on the D688 is fully exposed vs. the D675 which completely protects it from chips + coolant/etc. The drawback is it extends out the back but not really an issue for larger VMCs or for "wing men" on my BP. I don't think the exposed screw on the D688 is much of a problem for anyone though.

tomato coupe
02-15-2019, 04:36 PM
So why would anyone want the style where that nut ram sticks out?
There is no reason. That's why it was eliminated when they introduced new vises.

3 Phase Lightbulb
02-15-2019, 04:43 PM
I know. That's why I'm asking if these are older pre angle lock style vises? But the document in 3PL's link seems to make it look like both are current. So why would anyone want the style where that nut ram sticks out?

The D675 is better suited for harsher environments as the design fully protects the screw.

Paul Alciatore
02-15-2019, 05:00 PM
Braggart!

I have done something similar in an economy manner. Three four inch drill press style vises for holding long panels for machining. It works great. But the thing you have to be careful about is the exact dimensions of the vises as it relates to the work you are going to be doing. In my case, the only thing that really mattered was that the fixed jaws be about the same height and that they be installed parallel to each other and to the X axis. Do some $60 drill press vises worked just fine. The cutting forces were light.

But if you are doing other types of work, perhaps where the bed height of the vises is important, then you need to be careful about what you buy. I doubt that neither Kurt nor any of the other vise makers has any specs on the bed height and it could easily be different by a few or even many thousandths. You can work around that by using shims from the mill table, but you have to be aware of the situation. Or treat your new, expensive vises to a trip to the surface grinder.




6" Kurts look somewhat big even on my CNC Bridgeport which has a 9"x48" table

http://www.bbssystem.com/pictures/kurt7.jpg

Paul Alciatore
02-15-2019, 05:04 PM
Here is the Grizzly page on my G0484 if you want to see exactly what it looks like:

https://www.grizzly.com/products/Grizzly-9-x-32-Gear-Head-Mill-Drill-with-Stand/G0484




The G0728 is probably more representative of your machine than the G0731:

https://www.grizzly.com/products/Grizzly-Vertical-Mill/G0728

3 Phase Lightbulb
02-15-2019, 05:12 PM
The D675 and D688 have the same dimensions.

You can see from these diagrams how the D675 fully protects the screw by not exposing any threads which are very short and are always completely inside of the nut. Due to this, the clamping force is rated 20% lower than the D688 and doesn't open the full 8.8":

https://www.kurtworkholding.com/images/D675-exploded.jpg

And the D688 has a very short nut and the long screw which provides more thread contact within the nut for 20% more clamping force than D675 but does expose the screw to the environment:

https://www.kurtworkholding.com/images/D688-exploded.jpg

3 Phase Lightbulb
02-15-2019, 05:18 PM
I doubt that neither Kurt nor any of the other vise makers has any specs on the bed height and it could easily be different by a few or even many thousandths. You can work around that by using shims from the mill table, but you have to be aware of the situation. Or treat your new, expensive vises to a trip to the surface grinder.

Kurt certainty specify all those specs and ensure all vises are within those specs. The bed height is 2.875" and the stationary jaw height is 1.485".

Paul Alciatore
02-15-2019, 05:18 PM
At 75 years old, I am definitely worried about weight. My 10" RT is a struggle. I have a future project of building a cart with a three position, revolving holder for that RT and a surface plate. The milling vise will probably have the third position there.

I have looked into the two piece styles. Do they make one with a "pull down" jaw? I have not seen that feature.

I am not sure that I like the idea of mounting two heavy accessories at the two ends of the mill's table. CI will change shape with constant pressure/force being applied. I have seen this in smaller castings and there is no reason to not expect it in larger ones (the mill table). That is why I plan on a cart to hold them.




Since you already have a tool makers vise, I'd give thought to a 2-piece vise. I sure dred pulling my 50lb+ vise off the table. That was my reason for mounting it off-center and allowing room for the RT or DH on the other half. A 2-piece can allow you to clamp a variety of vises to the table quickly. I've seen Stefan Gotteswinter use the combination many time on YT. I don't think he even owns a full size machinist vise.

Stefan's YT - https://www.youtube.com/user/syyl/videos?disable_polymer=1

Paul Alciatore
02-15-2019, 05:29 PM
Well, those are the target numbers. I imagine all vise makers have such a number on their drawings. Even a $15 Chinese import will have such a number somewhere so the pattern maker in the casting shop will know how big to make his patterns. But where is the +/- spec on them? +/- 0.0002"? +/- 0.0005"? +/- 0.0010"? +/- 0.0030"? +/- 0.0100"? Or what? And do they live up to it from year to year and model to model?

I suspect that Kurt and other high end manufacturers are better at this than the Chinese imports. But WHERE are their standards published? I have not seen them. Publishing a number like Bed Height = 2.875" +/- 0.0005" instantly makes the production process a lot more difficult and the price higher. At least, it certainly would in my shop. And guaranteeing that year after year is yet another level of precision.




Kurt certainty specify all those specs and ensure all vises are within those specs. The bed height is 2.875" and the stationary jaw height is 1.485".

Paul Alciatore
02-15-2019, 05:33 PM
Now that is exactly the type of comment what I was looking for. Four inches, you say. And I was looking at 5 and 6 inch ones. I think I am going to have to make some cardboard cutouts.




My mill table is about the same size as yours. I found that a 4" is about as big as you want to go without it hanging over the the back and front of the table too far.

3 Phase Lightbulb
02-15-2019, 05:40 PM
Well, those are the target numbers. I imagine all vise makers have such a number on their drawings. Even a $15 Chinese import will have such a number somewhere so the pattern maker in the casting shop will know how big to make his patterns. But where is the +/- spec on them? +/- 0.0002"? +/- 0.0005"? +/- 0.0010"? +/- 0.0030"? +/- 0.0100"? Or what? And do they live up to it from year to year and model to model?

I suspect that Kurt and other high end manufacturers are better at this than the Chinese imports. But WHERE are their standards published? I have not seen them. Publishing a number like Bed Height = 2.875" +/- 0.0005" instantly makes the production process a lot more difficult and the price higher. At least, it certainly would in my shop. And guaranteeing that year after year is yet another level of precision.

The D675/D688 link I posted earlier had specs. Here it is again.

https://www.kurtworkholding.com/documents/catalogs/sheets/sheet_D675_D688_comp_013012.pdf

Paul Alciatore
02-15-2019, 05:55 PM
OK, I stand corrected. I just looked at the Shars page on their 440V and they do give +/- specs on several important numbers, including the bed height. They are all +/- 0.0005". This is the first time I have seen this.

I like it and wish I could afford two.




Well, those are the target numbers. I imagine all vise makers have such a number on their drawings. Even a $15 Chinese import will have such a number somewhere so the pattern maker in the casting shop will know how big to make his patterns. But where is the +/- spec on them? +/- 0.0002"? +/- 0.0005"? +/- 0.0010"? +/- 0.0030"? +/- 0.0100"? Or what? And do they live up to it from year to year and model to model?

I suspect that Kurt and other high end manufacturers are better at this than the Chinese imports. But WHERE are their standards published? I have not seen them. Publishing a number like Bed Height = 2.875" +/- 0.0005" instantly makes the production process a lot more difficult and the price higher. At least, it certainly would in my shop. And guaranteeing that year after year is yet another level of precision.

3 Phase Lightbulb
02-15-2019, 06:16 PM
OK, I stand corrected. I just looked at the Shars page on their 440V and they do give +/- specs on several important numbers, including the bed height. They are all +/- 0.0005". This is the first time I have seen this.

I like it and wish I could afford two.

Grab a pair of these 4" ghet-ups for $92 shipped each:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07GZFCGXQ?aaxitk=TAkV77BN8rZTvQs9mxrBkw&th=1

It appears the reviews indicate that you might be happy with them too. Also, don't get caught up on thinking you'll benefit much from +/- 0.0005 bed height.

1200rpm
02-15-2019, 06:34 PM
personally I loathe swivel vises, much prefer this type....and you can use 6" because you can clamp anywhere on the rail....swivels just add another link and you always end up indicating anyway...not endorsing the brand only posted as reference.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/6-Super-Lock-Precision-Vise-CNC-0004-NC-CNC-MILLING-Machine-Vice-Clamps/163505934471?hash=item2611b69087:g:JacAAOSw9N1Vsnu l

I had the same mill too, 4" was too small for me but YMMV.

tlfamm
02-15-2019, 07:28 PM
personally I loathe swivel vises, much prefer this type....and you can use 6" because you can clamp anywhere on the rail....swivels just add another link and you always end up indicating anyway...not endorsing the brand only posted as reference.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/6-Super-Lock-Precision-Vise-CNC-0004-NC-CNC-MILLING-Machine-Vice-Clamps/163505934471?hash=item2611b69087:g:JacAAOSw9N1Vsnu l

I had the same mill too, 4" was too small for me but YMMV.

I also have a G0484 mill and find a 4" vise suits it and me just fine.

Rich Carlstedt
02-15-2019, 08:14 PM
Paul
I have a 75 years old Bridgeport (1943) with a 32 x 9 inch table
I have a 4 inch Angle Lock Clone,
A 5 inch Kurt Vise ( 1977 )
A 6 Inch Kurt Vise ( 1989 )
Hands down the 5 inch is perfect for that size table
The 4 inch is 12 1/2 " deep and sticks out 1 inch near the column
The 5 Inch is 14 " Deep and also sticks out 1 inch
Since my DRO is mounted in the front of the table, it adds 2 inches to the front
The 4 inch sticks out 1/2" beyond and the 5 inch sticks out 2 inches.

For fist size work only, the 4 inch would be fine
anything larger and it is beyond capacity (IMHO) except for the 5 inch, which I feel is perfect.

At work, we only bought Kurts and used them in multiple units and they ALWAYS had the identical height on their beds and jaws.

I was lucky buying a Kurt 5 in 1977 when I did as they discontinued them maybe 10 years later.
Even in 1977 a new 5 inch cost almost 100 bucks more than a 6 inch
I paid around 400 for it , and have never looked back
Rich

BCRider
02-15-2019, 08:29 PM
Paul, a few of the two piece vises do have a movable jaw that is on an angle so it slides down and pull the work down as it tightens.

I bought one on sale some years ago thinking I could use it. But the mounting lugs were in totally the wrong place and ribs and such prevented me from making new ones that would fit my table's T slots. I kept the darn thing until I got my new mill and they still didn't fit. The spots for the hold downs didn't fit the slots on my shaper either.

So I gave them to a gunsmith friend that has a mill which they do fit. That was about three years ago and when I was over there a while back they were on a shelf and still in the original plastic.....

A fact that was pointed out in some sources about two part vises is that they put the spreading forces into the table instead of holding them in the frame of the vise. So it's possible to arch the table and the dovetail ways and bind the travel if not done with some care.

So my own thoughts on vises without beds is some lower profile clamps such as those presented by Harold Hall in these next two videos;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yozg495MIzg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NL6lNX_gA3Y&t=310s

Or a slight variation where I build some semi tall 1" high versions of the sliding down at an angle style clamps combined with a straight across 1" high bar secured by all three slots on the other end. Basically a low profile two part vise which would reduce the bending moment on the table itself but still hold the sort of things I want to hold. Anything that needs a higher sort of jaw I can hold in other ways.

3 Phase Lightbulb
02-15-2019, 08:36 PM
At 75 years old, I am definitely worried about weight.

I think someone needs to do an intervention here... Might be an endless loop :)

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/77092-Milling-Vise-Bridgeport-vs-Kurt
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/77813-Milling-Vise-Quality-Kurt-Bridgeport-etc
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/75380-Two-Piece-Milling-Vise-Good-Bad-What
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/78344-Milling-Vise-Size

Paul Alciatore
02-15-2019, 10:55 PM
So, what's wrong with taking my time on this? What has changed is that I now have some $$$ that I can actually spend on it. I was reimbursed for an in warranty TV that went bad with a virtual debit card for it's full price. But that's another story. So what is now left of that money is burning a hole in my pocket (virtual hole in a virtual pocket if accuracy is desired). But, that is another story.

Up until now, I had been thinking that a 6" was a good size and a 5" would have been a bit of a compromise. But I started thinking about that and was wondering about that specific question: just what size is best for a mill of this size.

It is not quite as bad as you make out as the last link in your list is for THIS thread. So I only had three previous ones. I am going to buy something in the next few days or so. I just want to maximize my chances of making a good choice so I am asking the brain trust here about this latest question. It seems legit to me.




I think someone needs to do an intervention here... Might be an endless loop :)

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/77092-Milling-Vise-Bridgeport-vs-Kurt
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/77813-Milling-Vise-Quality-Kurt-Bridgeport-etc
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/75380-Two-Piece-Milling-Vise-Good-Bad-What
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/78344-Milling-Vise-Size

3 Phase Lightbulb
02-15-2019, 11:22 PM
I think someone needs to do an intervention here... Might be an endless loop :)

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/77092-Milling-Vise-Bridgeport-vs-Kurt
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/77813-Milling-Vise-Quality-Kurt-Bridgeport-etc
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/75380-Two-Piece-Milling-Vise-Good-Bad-What
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/78344-Milling-Vise-Size


It is not quite as bad as you make out as the last link in your list is for THIS thread. So I only had three previous ones.


I wonder what an endless loop is......

1200rpm
02-15-2019, 11:45 PM
Small point to consider is the t-nut bolt size and the size bolt the swivel mount can take....if you get a swivel vise....

Grizz 5" vise is on sale BTW

Paul Alciatore
02-16-2019, 01:45 AM
One other thing that I have found with my mill's table is that the Tee nut size is not the most standard: that is if there is a standard. It uses 1/2" bolt size nuts, but the ones that came with the set that I purchased would not fit in the table's slots. I guess I am figuring that I will have to make custom mounting hardware anyway. So I should be able to incorporate whatever bolt size that the vise uses. But, thanks for the tip.

Yes, Grizz 5" is on sale. The Shars 5" is less and neither one is too tight on the specs. But, unless I find a great buy on a used Kurt in the next few days, it will probably be one of those. Or, perhaps two 5" Shars, one with the swivel base and the other without: that's about $230 plus shipping - just a bit over my "budget". That would give me the best of both worlds: making angle cuts or holding longer pieces. It should be easy enough to make a base shim for whichever one has the lower bed height to bring them together. There is also a Shars 6" with a jaw opening at 7.48" (190mm?). That is also interesting but it is probably too big for the table.

I have printed the dimensions of several models and am going to make some CAD drawings for cardboard cut-outs to see just how they would sit on the table.




Small point to consider is the t-nut bolt size and the size bolt the swivel mount can take....if you get a swivel vise....

Grizz 5" vise is on sale BTW

BCRider
02-16-2019, 02:04 AM
Paul, that's what I found with my mill. Slots are OK for 1/2" bolts but the foot of the slot was only wide enough for the 3/8" clamping kit nuts. So that's what I'm using for the normal clamping kit duties.

But for my mill vise I did make up some special T nuts that accept 1/2" bolts. And will do so for a few other things in time. But mostly I'm fine with the 3/8" kit.

mattthemuppet
02-16-2019, 11:25 AM
The fancy 5" from precision Matthews looks nice and only a bit above your budget. I would have gotten the 4" if I'd had the money, but got the basic shars one instead. Took some work to get it how I wanted and there's still a little bit of stationary jaw lift with work on parallels, but for the money it's still a good deal.

Cuttings
02-16-2019, 11:36 AM
I have just been looking at the 440V and as with other vises I see it has threaded holes on the outside off both the fixed jaw block and the movable jaw block so the removable jaws can be mounted on the outside for greater capacity. I have a Chinese clone that is the same but I found that the top of these jaw blocks were a slightly different height making it difficult to mount something in the vise and keep it level. So took the removable jaws off put a piece of bar stock that was lower than the top of the blocks in the vise to close it on and ran a flycutter over the vise to level it up. Makes life a little easier now.

Paul Alciatore
02-16-2019, 03:49 PM
With my mill's 1/2" slots and my RT's 3/8" slots, I have both clamping kits. I bought them back in the Enco days with sale prices and free or reasonable shipping. And, as I said above, I had to buy a new set of nuts for the 1/2" kit. So I have flexibility in that regard. Naturally I would rather using the 1/2" hardware for this.

No one seems to specify what size mounting hardware their vise uses.




Paul, that's what I found with my mill. Slots are OK for 1/2" bolts but the foot of the slot was only wide enough for the 3/8" clamping kit nuts. So that's what I'm using for the normal clamping kit duties.

But for my mill vise I did make up some special T nuts that accept 1/2" bolts. And will do so for a few other things in time. But mostly I'm fine with the 3/8" kit.

Paul Alciatore
02-16-2019, 03:53 PM
Matt, I am looking real seriously at the Shars 5", the basic model as you say. Can you be more specific as to what you did to yours to bring it up to snuff? Are we talking multiple trips to the surface grinder? Scraping? Or just details?




The fancy 5" from precision Matthews looks nice and only a bit above your budget. I would have gotten the 4" if I'd had the money, but got the basic shars one instead. Took some work to get it how I wanted and there's still a little bit of stationary jaw lift with work on parallels, but for the money it's still a good deal.

mattthemuppet
02-16-2019, 04:45 PM
Matt, I am looking real seriously at the Shars 5", the basic model as you say. Can you be more specific as to what you did to yours to bring it up to snuff? Are we talking multiple trips to the surface grinder? Scraping? Or just details?

Mostly just fit'n'finish stuff - took it apart and:
- stoned all the ground/ sliding/ mating surfaces. The ground surfaces were largely good, but the unground surfaces benefited from some touching up
- smoothed the pull down wedge and half ball surfaces. the former was as cast and the latter was roughly machined, so I figured that smoother mating surfaces would help it work better
- cleaned the fixed jaw key slot and added a thin shim to make the key fit snuggly once I cleaned all the paint out
- tapped deeper the bolt holes in the base that the fixed jaw bolts to and bought longer US made bolts as I was having alot of fixed jaw movement. I didn't think that the OE bolt holes were tapped deep enough or the bolts had too few threads in the casting. Whatever it was that mostly fixed the problem. Now I get a little fixed jaw lift with something thin held high up in the jaws, but not so much that I can't tap it down. With anything thicker the work sits evenly on the parallels.
- added a thin piece of shim to the side of the moving jaw where it fits in the base to get rid of some side to side jaw movement
- cleaned and greased everything and made covers for the screw (bike inner tube) and the back of the vise (treadmill belt). Also made my own hold down bolts and T-nuts as the stock ones looked a bit weedy.

I've no complaints about it, especially for the $100 or so that it cost me. The "ang-lock" feature works very well, everything works smoothly, the thrust bearing has a ball oiler (nice touch) and the jaw opens 5.5" which is pretty impressive. Only improvement I'd like to do is make a speed handle. I've no doubt a higher end vise would be nicer to use, but for my purposes and budget this one does just fine.

Paul Alciatore
02-16-2019, 11:01 PM
Thanks Matt. I suspect that your and my purposes and budget are closely aligned (+/- 0.001 or better).

mattthemuppet
02-17-2019, 09:54 AM
Your Very welcome!

Forgot to say that I also cut off the base "lip" at the fixed jaw end so I could mount the vise in the middle slot of my 6x26 without losing too much y travel

gellfex
02-17-2019, 01:47 PM
I think the size choice has more to do with your work envelope than anything else. I value quick setup, and rarely work anything large, so my 6" Phase II Kurt Klone rarely moves on my Jet 16. Before that I had a 6" BP vise since getting the mill in 92. There's only been a handful of times the Y axis limiting has been a problem. I can't recall if I ever used it's swivel base, it's in storage somewhere. Phase II is a cut above the usual import crap, and a bit more expensive, but a lot less than a Kurt.

Paul Alciatore
02-17-2019, 05:15 PM
Nothing wrong with custom Tee nuts, but I did not have to go that route. I found a bunch of them with different dimensions for the same bolt size and just ordered a bunch. At the time I believe I paid as much or more for those extra nuts as I paid for the complete clamp set. I believe that was also on Enco, back when there was an Enco. Perhaps MSC now has that assortment.

I may just make some custom Tee Nuts for the vise that I buy. I have noticed that when they are longer than the standard sizes they can distribute the stress on the table slots better. But there is a limit to that due to the space at the ends of the Tee slots for inserting them.




Paul, that's what I found with my mill. Slots are OK for 1/2" bolts but the foot of the slot was only wide enough for the 3/8" clamping kit nuts. So that's what I'm using for the normal clamping kit duties.

But for my mill vise I did make up some special T nuts that accept 1/2" bolts. And will do so for a few other things in time. But mostly I'm fine with the 3/8" kit.

Paul Alciatore
02-17-2019, 05:37 PM
Well, I did make some cardboard cutouts to try to show the footprint of the 5" and 6" Shars vises. And it was a surprise how much they differed. One caution: the dimensions on the Shars web site are not complete so I had to make reasonable guesses at the location of the mounting holes and the location of the rear, fixed jaw. The results look good, but they could be off by 1/2" to 1" or perhaps even more. On all of the cutouts I emphasized the mounting holes by coloring them completely black: they are 1/2" diameter circles.

First, here is a shot of the Shars 6" (202-1015) cutout sitting on the table.

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=4677&d=1550441024

This is the model with a 7.48" jaw opening so it is larger than some others. But it is BIG. I tried to position it at three of the table's slots and the second slot, as seen in the photo, seemed to be the best. In this photo, the rod extending from a collet could not be brought to the rear, fixed jaw. It was about 3/4" inside of it. Not good. This could be cured by using the front slot, but then you would be so far from the fully open front jaw that it would be ridiculous.

This shot shows the table moved with the 6" cutout still on the second slot. Again, the rod representing the quill's centerline is far from the movable, front jaw. I believe it was over 2" from it.

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=4676&d=1550441015

This restriction was due to the vise hitting the column at the rear so there is nothing at all that can be done to extend that. Again, not good. These problems would be better, but not resolved if a 6" model with a smaller opening was used.

I was really surprised at just how much the 6" vise was too big. There is no question about that; NONE WHATEVER!

So, how about the 5" models? Here is the 5" model, mounted at the second Tee slot, which seemed to be the best. As you can see, the back end of the vise is approximately at the rear edge of the table so there is no extra limitation on movement there.

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=4675&d=1550441002

The pointer is positioned above the movable jaw and there was at least another 3/4" of movement there.

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=4675&d=1550441002

And the 5" moved forward to position the pointer above the fixed, rear jaw. Again no problem and there was at least another 3/4" of movement available.

So the 5" Shars seems to be an almost ideal size for my mill. All points between the fixed and movable jaws are completely accessible.

I was really surprised at how much difference that one inch made.

Paul Alciatore
02-17-2019, 06:50 PM
I also mentioned the possibility of buying two. Here is what two would look like on the table. (Cardboard is cheap.)

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=4673&d=1550440976

That works. I suppose you could even fit three, but lets not get carried away. I may never use three from now till dome's day.

Bonus: While looking at the photos I noticed something that I did not see in person, at the mill. I see where I can store the vise or even two of them. The empty space below the ends of the table. There should be room for two shelves down there. I even can envision a swing-up shelf with a counterbalance weight that would swing up and to the front to come to the front edge of the table. Then I could just slide the vise on or off the table. And it could even be motorized for the ultimate in lazy shop stuff.

I really do think that this thread has been very worthwhile and I greatly appreciate the help of all who participated.

tomato coupe
02-18-2019, 12:48 AM
I also mentioned the possibility of buying two...

Two smaller (4") vises are often more flexible than one larger (5") vise. If you decide to go that route, I highly recommend buying vises with machined sides, as they can be mounted very close together or on their sides.

Paul Alciatore
02-18-2019, 04:36 AM
I have also thought of that. What competes with it in my mind is if I purchase two 5" vises, one with a rotating base, I would also have the option of using it at an angle for an angled cut.

I have worked with multiple vises on a milling table and know the limitations as well as the advantages of the technique. It is quite possible to work with several inches between the jaws of the vises. They do not need to touch. Not all work can be done this way, but many practical tasks can. I have easily and successfully milled 19" wide aluminum panels that were held in three 3.5" wide vises: holes, slots, rectangular cutouts, etc.

Background: I am the one who wrote the "Setting Up Accurate Angles - Inexpensively" article in the Jan-Feb 2009 Home Shop Machinist. It describes a method for achieving sine bar accuracy (almost) for any angle inside the jaws of a vise or in other situations by using an inexpensive set of 10 angle gauges and some tricks. So you can see where I am coming from.

I am looking at the full cost of this purchase, including the shipping. I may have to drop down to the 4 inch size. I plan to call Shars tomorrow during office hours to see what I can work out.




Two smaller (4") vises are often more flexible than one larger (5") vise. If you decide to go that route, I highly recommend buying vises with machined sides, as they can be mounted very close together or on their sides.

old mart
02-18-2019, 08:46 AM
The two 4" Bisons are set up to work as a pair if necessary, one has a rotary base if needed, and the 5" which I bought for its wider opening also has a rotary base which hasn't been used yet. The museum's drill mill has a similar table size to yours, and I certainly wouldn't want to go bigger with the vises. That assumes that you don't have a bigger mill in mind for the near future.

Paul Alciatore
02-18-2019, 04:31 PM
Hummm! Another vote for 4" size. The main thing I see there is less opening between the jaws. But I guess I have to look into that a bit more. I am noticing that the shipping will eat me up on this one. And I am too far from anyone to go and pick it up.

Who sells Bison?

mattthemuppet
02-18-2019, 04:57 PM
I don't know what the 5" opens to, but the 4" goes to 5.5", plus you have the option of putting one or both of the jaws on the outside though admittedly with less gripping surface. For me there was no point going larger on my 6x26 mill (smaller version of yours I think) as I wouldn't have the travel to use a larger opening vise anyway.

old mart
02-19-2019, 12:29 PM
As for the price of Bison vices, they are expensive, the first one came with the drill mill, and the second, with rotary base, in new condition I bought on ebay for £100 which was 1/4 of the normal price. Although their ages were at least 6 years different, they matched within 0.0005", so it was easy to make them a pair for long X axis work. Jaw lift is inherent with the design, I have got it down to about 0.002". The Kurt clones are a better bet in respect of jaw opening and lift.

true temper
02-20-2019, 08:44 PM
What one did you buy?

Paul Alciatore
02-20-2019, 09:22 PM
I pulled the trigger last night. I ordered two of the Shars 5" vises: one with a swivel base and the other without. My logic on that is explained in post #44 above. They are scheduled for delivery on Friday. I guess I was going to wait until they arrived and post photos.

One good thing about Shars, their web site estimated about $117 for shipping. I called and spoke with one of their salespersons and requested that they ship the least expensive way. The final shipping cost came to $96.50 so he saved me about $20 on that score. My thanks to Kevin at Shars. And I am still getting them in three days. It may have been just two days if I had ordered earlier in the day. The final invoice was just a shade under $300.

Finally I will have a pair of real milling vises. A late Christmas present to myself.

Now I have to see about getting a tree cut down. That's gonna cost me more.




What one did you buy?

mattthemuppet
02-20-2019, 09:38 PM
nice! Let us know what you think when you get them.

3 Phase Lightbulb
02-21-2019, 09:19 AM
I pulled the trigger last night. I ordered two of the Shars 5" vises: one with a swivel base and the other without. My logic on that is explained in post #44 above. They are scheduled for delivery on Friday. I guess I was going to wait until they arrived and post photos.

One good thing about Shars, their web site estimated about $117 for shipping. I called and spoke with one of their salespersons and requested that they ship the least expensive way. The final shipping cost came to $96.50 so he saved me about $20 on that score. My thanks to Kevin at Shars. And I am still getting them in three days. It may have been just two days if I had ordered earlier in the day. The final invoice was just a shade under $300.

Finally I will have a pair of real milling vises. A late Christmas present to myself.

Now I have to see about getting a tree cut down. That's gonna cost me more.

Congrats! Let us know how they turn out. That's one heavy vise :)

https://www.shars.com/products/workholding/vise/5-x-4-92-lock-down-precision-milling-machine-vise



Tilt lock mechanism creates downward pressure on jaw ensuring both jaws are parallel during clamping; eliminating jaw tilt
Vise bed is cast from 80,000 lbs of ductile iron
Sliding surface of the vise bed is flame hardened and ground
Accurate to 0.002” per 4” on squareness and 0.006” per 4” on parallelism without base
Vise Key: 14.00mm table slot width, 15.875mm base width

mattthegamer463
02-21-2019, 11:40 AM
Congrats! Let us know how they turn out. That's one heavy vise :)

https://www.shars.com/products/workholding/vise/5-x-4-92-lock-down-precision-milling-machine-vise



Tilt lock mechanism creates downward pressure on jaw ensuring both jaws are parallel during clamping; eliminating jaw tilt
Vise bed is cast from 80,000 lbs of ductile iron
Sliding surface of the vise bed is flame hardened and ground
Accurate to 0.002” per 4” on squareness and 0.006” per 4” on parallelism without base
Vise Key: 14.00mm table slot width, 15.875mm base width


Perhaps they mean cast as in "discarded".

Paul Alciatore
02-23-2019, 10:46 PM
So the rule is no photo, no brag. Here is the photo of the first one that I unpacked.

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=4705&d=1550979126

The hole spacing is a bit different than what I assumed with my cardboard cutout and it seems to be more at home on the third slot so that is where it is in this photo. It hangs about 3/4" over the rear edge of the table and about 2" over the front. It is sitting off to the side because I have some work that I am finishing on an angle in the center. It took me a while to mount it and I will finish it before removing it and moving the vise to the center.

I think it is the ideal size for this mill and I should be able to use the full jaw opening. It opens and closes silky smooth and all surfaces look nicely ground. So far I have zero complaints. I still need to unpack the one with the swivel base and I want to get both of them on the surface plate to see just how close their beds are to each other.

It did come with two keys for aligning it to the table slots but they are too wide for my table. I presently have them removed and I guess they will be my next milling project. They are slightly Tee shaped with the vise side a little bit smaller than the table side. I will be trying to take the same amount off both sides of the wider top of the Tee so they will work mounted in either position. But I won't be able to check them with an indicator on the fixed jaw until they will drop down into the table slots so I may wind up with a lose fit where I need to push the vise against the rear of the slot when I mount it. We shall see. Any tips on this would be appreciated.

After years of using smaller vises, it sure does look nice sitting there. Now I need some projects with larger parts.

Paul Alciatore
02-23-2019, 10:51 PM
One more thing that I noticed is that the thread is exposed and it is exactly where the chips will fall directly on it. I am going to make a cover, probably magnetically attached aluminum. Fun and games.

BTW, it is fully open in the photo and there is 5.693" between the jaws. That is 0.773" more than the 4.92" spec. That's a nice bonus in my opinion.

old mart
02-24-2019, 11:13 AM
You only need the swivel base once in a blue moon, but you will be happy then. While you are getting the vise keys sorted to pair them up, put keys in the base and check/ adjust the zero on the degree scale, it will save time when that blue moon is shining. Also label the vise which is paired to the base.
To get the keys sorted when I did mine, I clamped down a 2 4 6 block exactly aligned with the X axis, and clamped the vises in turn upside down to skim the rear faces of the keys. You could also slim down the keys at the same time. Leave them narrower than the slots and push each vise back while clamping it down to the bed before use.
You can buy magnetic strips with adhesive tape on one side that is thin and can be cut with scissors.

BCRider
02-24-2019, 01:32 PM
Seeing how the 5" sits on your table there's no doubt that for me and mine the right choice would be the 4".

Looking forward to seeing your results from the surface plate tests. The V model vises tested in YT videos always end up better than the testers were expecting. Hopefully you end up in that boat with them.

Tungsten dipper
02-24-2019, 01:39 PM
Seeing how the 5" sits on your table there's no doubt that for me and mine the right choice would be the 4".

Looking forward to seeing your results from the surface plate tests. The V model vises tested in YT videos always end up better than the testers were expecting. Hopefully you end up in that boat with them.

Since I already have a 6" for that size of mill I wouldn't mind having a 5" and a 4".

Paul Alciatore
02-24-2019, 04:38 PM
I totally agree about the swivel base only being used on rare occasions. I will probably use the two vise set-up a lot more than that. But the extra cost was nominal so I got one.

Thanks for the 2-4-6 tip. I knew that, but I am not sure I was remembering it. I have tuned up other vises that way.

I do plan on marking the keys as well as the vise with the swivel base. Either paint dots or number stamps or file/Dremel notches. I need to see what will work best. The keys are a very tight fit in the vise: I had to grip them with an open end wrench to remove them. So there is no wiggle room when they are mounted there.

I love using magnets but did not know about that thin magnetic tape. And I am not sure what use you are suggesting it for.




You only need the swivel base once in a blue moon, but you will be happy then. While you are getting the vise keys sorted to pair them up, put keys in the base and check/ adjust the zero on the degree scale, it will save time when that blue moon is shining. Also label the vise which is paired to the base.
To get the keys sorted when I did mine, I clamped down a 2 4 6 block exactly aligned with the X axis, and clamped the vises in turn upside down to skim the rear faces of the keys. You could also slim down the keys at the same time. Leave them narrower than the slots and push each vise back while clamping it down to the bed before use.
You can buy magnetic strips with adhesive tape on one side that is thin and can be cut with scissors.

Paul Alciatore
02-24-2019, 04:40 PM
And I am delighted with the 5". So, there you go!




Seeing how the 5" sits on your table there's no doubt that for me and mine the right choice would be the 4".

Looking forward to seeing your results from the surface plate tests. The V model vises tested in YT videos always end up better than the testers were expecting. Hopefully you end up in that boat with them.

old mart
02-24-2019, 04:57 PM
I forgot to mention that the keys fitted to the vise intended for occasional use with the base should have its keys marked so they go back in exactly the same slots afterwards.
Refer to your post #69 for magnet use. Something like this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Trial-pack-self-adhesive-magnetic-strip-10cm-long-choice-of-width-craft-fridge/142853711360?hash=item2142bea600:m:mTcKg0xFn5Zb1iQ hCAwvk-w:rk:1:pf:0

Paul Alciatore
02-25-2019, 03:21 AM
Ahh so, post 69. I guess I was thinking about a couple of those neo, button magnets, probably affixed with epoxy. I think I have some of the type of magnetic tape you suggest. The neo magnets would be much better.




I forgot to mention that the keys fitted to the vise intended for occasional use with the base should have its keys marked so they go back in exactly the same slots afterwards.
Refer to your post #69 for magnet use. Something like this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Trial-pack-self-adhesive-magnetic-strip-10cm-long-choice-of-width-craft-fridge/142853711360?hash=item2142bea600:m:mTcKg0xFn5Zb1iQ hCAwvk-w:rk:1:pf:0

A.K. Boomer
02-25-2019, 09:08 AM
Paul I think you will be happy with the 5" I have a JVM 8X36 and went through the same hesitation about what to get and finally settled on a used kurt 5"

I will tell you for my table it fits like a glove, it's prefect size, a 4 is too small for me and a 6 would have stuck out the front too much and impeded my mobility when working the handles and stuff,,,

now your table is slightly larger and technically I think you could have made the leap to the 6 but a 4 would be too small, and since your worried about weight a 5 is a great compromise,,,

only oddball thing is most parallel sets come in 6" and you will have them hanging out on the ends a little - no big whoop you get used to it... Just remember that fact when facing off the end of parts hanging out the sides and stuff them in on that end lol

3 Phase Lightbulb
02-25-2019, 09:10 AM
Paul I think you will be happy with the 5" I have a JVM 8X30 and went through the same hesitation about what to get and finally settled on a used kurt 5"

I will tell you for my table it fits like a glove, it's prefect size, a 4 is too small for me and a 6 would have stuck out the front too much and impeded my mobility when working the handles and stuff,,,

now your table is slightly larger and technically I think you could have made the leap to the 6 but a 4 would be too small, and since your worried about weight a 5 is a great compromise,,,

only oddball thing is most parallel sets come in 6" and you will have them hanging out on the ends a little - no big whoop you get used to it... Just remember that fact when facing off the end of parts hanging out the sides and stuff them in on that end lol

I thought you had a bridgeport?

A.K. Boomer
02-25-2019, 09:42 AM
I have a Jet, and it's actually an 8X36 table so is a little longer than Pauls but not quite as wide...

(I corrected the table size above - had it as an 8X30 but that's not the case.)

shampine1
02-25-2019, 09:49 AM
On my Rockwell I found it really valuable to saw off the back coolant channel; that bought me another 3/4" of travel! A couple dabs of epoxy putty blocked leaks out the back.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

old mart
02-25-2019, 11:01 AM
I must have a look at the 5" vise I have and see if it also has a coolant channel that uses up Y axis travel.

mattthemuppet
02-25-2019, 12:18 PM
On my Rockwell I found it really valuable to saw off the back coolant channel; that bought me another 3/4" of travel! A couple dabs of epoxy putty blocked leaks out the back.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

that's what I did too - only way I could get full use out of the vise without losing too much Y travel. I still lose a little travel, maybe 1/2", but that's not a major deal.

A.K. Boomer
02-25-2019, 12:23 PM
My X scale is on the back with shielding so the 5" vice only sticks out maybe a 1/2" beyond that, i loose a little Y travel but have adjustable ram so it's never really bothered me.

Rich Carlstedt
02-25-2019, 11:28 PM
When you clamp the vise upside down to mill the keys to fit your table slots, make sure the handle side of the vise is facing the column .
Machining the keys that way, cancels out any error in the table slot versus ways configuration. Mark the keys to prevent future mix up.

Rich

old mart
02-26-2019, 12:15 PM
Having the handle end of the vise facing the column of a small mill would be impossible due to the limited throat depth.

Paul Alciatore
02-26-2019, 05:31 PM
Yea, that may work with a 2" or 3" vise, perhaps even a 4", but no way with the 5" or larger. Unless you have a round column mill and can swing the head to one side. Hey, there is an advantage of the round column mills: I thought there were none. But even then, it may not work as you will need a bit of X travel.

I may use that trick and then see how it comes out. It should amplify the error and that constitutes a test of the parallelism of the mill table's slots and of the slot on the vise. I suspect that I may have to cut and try and cut again until it works properly. I also intend to test the alignment at different points on the table as the vise may not always be in the center and who's to say that the Chinese shop cut those slots straight. Or the dovetail for that matter. Errors abound everywhere.




Having the handle end of the vise facing the column of a small mill would be impossible due to the limited throat depth.

Rich Carlstedt
02-27-2019, 01:04 AM
Paul
I thought you said in your first post that you had 10 1/4" from the column to the Spindle centerline.?
I would think that is enough for the vise ? Not familiar with the mill, but can you swing the turret (???) and mill off to the center of the column ?
Rich

true temper
02-27-2019, 01:55 AM
When you clamp the vise upside down to mill the keys to fit your table slots, make sure the handle side of the vise is facing the column .
Machining the keys that way, cancels out any error in the table slot versus ways configuration. Mark the keys to prevent future mix up.

Rich
Rich, can you explain it a little better why you would want the vise handle pointed to the column.
I am a little slow figuring this out.

DennisCA
02-27-2019, 04:00 AM
Since you already have a tool makers vise, I'd give thought to a 2-piece vise. I sure dred pulling my 50lb+ vise off the table. That was my reason for mounting it off-center and allowing room for the RT or DH on the other half. A 2-piece can allow you to clamp a variety of vises to the table quickly. I've seen Stefan Gotteswinter use the combination many time on YT. I don't think he even owns a full size machinist vise.

Stefan's YT - https://www.youtube.com/user/syyl/videos?disable_polymer=1

Something like a 2 piece vise sounds interesting. I did not get a vise with my mill and have wondered what I ought to get when it's up and running.

BCRider
02-27-2019, 12:48 PM
Something like a 2 piece vise sounds interesting. I did not get a vise with my mill and have wondered what I ought to get when it's up and running.

In a weak moment I bought one of the typical commercial 2 piece 6" jaw vise sets (https://www.grizzly.com/products/Grizzly-2-pc-Milling-Vise-6-/H2992) to use along the table for larger items. Turned out that the slots did not fit my table at all. And the stiffening webs were in places where I couldn't logically and reasonably easily extended said slots. I thought about making some adapter plate blocks but that would have raised the jaws up well off the table. And they are already fairly high. And if you read around there's a very real issue of two piece vises that use the mill table as their "bed" to curve the table under pressure. I ended up giving it to a gunsmith buddy that hasn't used it in two years either.

So by all means buy a milling vise that is suitable to your table size and which can be mounted without excessive overhang off the back or front of the table. And if you want a 2 piece vise for odd oversize items look at other methods for clamping.

My current favorite idea that I want to implement is a 1" high table vise using a 1x1.5" fixed jaw that will clamp to all three slots on the one end and allow me to tram the jaw to the Y axis with a dial gauge. On the other end it'll use two or three, as needed, independent table clamps as the movable jaw for the most flexibility of use for any sort of clamping. The design I want to use is going to be a 1" high version of one of the angled downward wedging action style low profile mill table clamps. There's a lot of variations on these but if you look around they are pretty common.

In fact in looking for a link to illustrate what I'm after I found THIS PICTURE (https://john5293.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/517-side-clamp.jpg) at THIS WEB PAGE (https://johnfsworkshop.org/home/processes-links/processes-removing-metal/the-milling-machine/the-milling-machine-workholding/side-clamps/) which is pretty much exactly what we're after. There would be a couple of differences. First off the position holding screw does not need a slot. Just slide it in the T slot. Second is that the pinch down screw should really be on an angle to match the slope of the sliding joint. Plus for the anticipated desire to match the fixed and movable jaw heights I'd do a taller fixed jaw. Or a variety of fixed jaws in fact would not be out of the question.

For occasional use mild steel would be fine. It'll wear in time but since a common mill vise can do 95% or more of the work this 2 piece setup would only be pulled out now and then. And with that sort of use we won't live long enough to wear out mild steel used with some reasonable care and consideration. But when it's the right setup for the job at hand it'll be THE RIGHT SETUP ! ! !

The picture looks very odd at first glance until you realize there's an "L" shaped piece to move the grip down to the base of the part and allow full access to the edge.

This Old Tony did a video on making A TWO PIECE MILLING VISE. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UGY8iJH_aY) It's a good watch and shows that it can be done. But I prefer the angled pinch down style and I prefer separate pinching clamps over a full jaw because I feel it could be tough to get a good fit and not let the jaw flex to open the upper edges away from pressure. The sloped sliding design cures that.

And finally by limiting the jaw height to only 1" we generate a lot less table flex from the clamping forces that tries to turn the table into an arched shape.

So buy a proper vise. But also look around at "low profile milling clamps" and "milling side clamps" for a wide variety of images on table clamping. It's a real eye opener.

old mart
02-27-2019, 01:29 PM
When I got the second 4" Bison and decided to pair them up, there was a problem. The X axis was not exactly perpendicular to the Y axis. This didn't matter with one vise in the centre of the bed, but showed up badly with the vises about 15" apart.
I had to skim up to 0.007" over the rear of the selected slot, number three of four. This was impossible without swinging the head right and left with the round column drill mill. There is a small dwell mark about 5" from one end which can be felt with a finger.
We have the use of one of those two piece vises which one of the volunteers brought in, never on the mill which it doesn't fit, but on a large piece of wood for a custom width clamp.

Paul Alciatore
02-27-2019, 06:31 PM
Rich, I guess I was guesstimating. I am finishing up the other job that was on my mill so I should be able to get the vise in that center position today. We shall see.

And no, I can not swing the turret. It is a dovetail column mill and does not swing in the horizontal plane. I think tilting the head to a side enough to get the vise clear of the column, which is a lot wider than a typical round column, would put me at a 45 degree angle and it would be hard to mill those keys in that position without cutting down into the base of the vise.




Paul
I thought you said in your first post that you had 10 1/4" from the column to the Spindle centerline.?
I would think that is enough for the vise ? Not familiar with the mill, but can you swing the turret (???) and mill off to the center of the column ?
Rich

Paul Alciatore
02-27-2019, 06:54 PM
His point was that if the table slot was at an angle, instead of being properly parallel, then by milling the keys in that reversed position you would cancel out that error when the vise was mounted. It is a good idea, but I am not sure I can do it that way. I will find out later tonight.

You can try it yourself with an envelope (the vise) on your desk. Put a ruler on the desk at a small angle (10 deg) to the table edge. The table edge is the direction of mill table movement and the ruler is the Tee slot that is NOT parallel to it. This is the error you are trying to compensate for. Now draw a line across the envelope, parallel to it's short sides (perpendicular to the long sides). That envelope is your vise and the line is the slot in the vise, which we are assuming is parallel to the fixed vise jaw. Line up that line with the crooked ruler (the table slot). Now draw a second line on the envelope that is parallel to the edge of the desk. Flip it over using that second line to align with the ruler (the table slot). Your envelope will magically be square to the edge of the desk (the X axis of the mill). So the work in the vise will be parallel to the table's movement. That shows how it compensates for a crooked table slot.

Unfortunately, it will not compensate for an error in the vise's slot. In fact, it will double that error. If that error exists you will need to correct it by trial and error.

Of course, you can test the table and vise before doing this to see if there are any errors that need to be taken into account.




Rich, can you explain it a little better why you would want the vise handle pointed to the column.
I am a little slow figuring this out.

Paul Alciatore
02-27-2019, 07:03 PM
Couldn't you customize the fit of the keys on each vise to make them parallel and co-plainer? Of course, this would only work for one position of the vises.




When I got the second 4" Bison and decided to pair them up, there was a problem. The X axis was not exactly perpendicular to the Y axis. This didn't matter with one vise in the centre of the bed, but showed up badly with the vises about 15" apart.
I had to skim up to 0.007" over the rear of the selected slot, number three of four. This was impossible without swinging the head right and left with the round column drill mill. There is a small dwell mark about 5" from one end which can be felt with a finger.
We have the use of one of those two piece vises which one of the volunteers brought in, never on the mill which it doesn't fit, but on a large piece of wood for a custom width clamp.

BCRider
02-27-2019, 09:43 PM
For the sake of a few thou worth of size increase I think I'd skim one side of the slots directly in the mill. But first I'd want to see if the off square situation is a thing I could easily correct. Like if there's some raised dent, burrs, swarf caught in there or the key is not correctly machined.

old mart
02-28-2019, 11:57 AM
I think I haven't made myself clear in #91, it was the table slots which were at fault, I could have milled all four, but only number three could be used with paired vises. The single 5" vise uses slot number two on its own and is parallel in any position despite the error.
The pair are good in any position and are interchangeable right to left.

Paul Alciatore
04-10-2019, 06:01 PM
I am coming back to this thread after a few weeks. I have been busy finishing a wood project (an exercise bench for my wife) and now am in the middle of income taxes. But last night, in a badly needed break from those taxes, I took some measurements of the first vise that I had unpacked. I was particularly interested in the height of the bed and I took a bunch of readings on the surface plate, using a Mahr Millimess, 0.00005" DI.

First I lightly stoned the bottom and the bed with my ground flat stones just to take care of any burrs that may have been there. I did not see or feel any, so that was just a precaution. As I said before, both of these surfaces were ground and the stone just glided over then almost without any friction. Excellent!

Then I started by setting my zero point in the center of one side of the bed. My surface plate is rather small so I had to maneuver the vise around to get all the points on both sides. As a side note, moving it was smooth and no scratches were left on my surface plate. And it seemed to pivot around the 2/3s points as a flat bottom should have. I did not try to check it with blue yet.

I took readings about every inch or so, seven readings per side. Eleven of those readings were within +/- 0.0003" of the initial zero and the other three were +/- 0.0004" or less. I don't know how that compares to a Kurt or other high end vise, but it certainly meets my expectations and will serve admirably for my work.

When I get the need for another break in my taxes, I want to check out any jaw rise with a 1-2-3 block and some parallels. I may repeat that with a 2-4-6 block.

So far I am greatly pleased with it.