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View Full Version : OT: is it wrong to want to run over idiots.



loose nut
04-17-2019, 06:20 PM
I took some leaves and branches to the towns compose site today. On my second trip, there was a guy in front of me pulling a trailer full of garden $#!+ with a minivan. Now with all the rain we have had lately it was a real quagmire except for one path that was reasonably firm. So naturally the idiot in question that tried to drive though this with said minivan got off the path, tried to back up getting stuck in the mud blocking the path. OK not a big problem 'cuse I'm in my truck with 4 x 4 and I just drove around him though about a foot of mud. After I was finished I needed to return the way in but the idiot in question was dumping his load behind me, right where I needed to go to get out of this mess. I decided that I wasn't going to wait all day for him to get out of the way, he was going to need a tow truck to get out of there, so I risked going farther off the path though about 1 1/2 to 2 feet of mud. Well the old Ranger did good and I just backed up and powered across the mud.

Now for the 64 dollar question. Would I be justified in running this guy over (almost an accident too) and ridding the world of another person that shouldn't be allowed to waste air or is that a bit over the top???

johansen
04-17-2019, 06:27 PM
yeah i'd say you're a loose nut, hazard to all of us. might fall off one day and cause an accident.

Toolguy
04-17-2019, 06:29 PM
That would be over the top (of him). However, sometimes it almost seems like it would be a service to everyone in town...

vpt
04-17-2019, 06:50 PM
I love my minivan!

https://i.imgur.com/SxTJyLd.jpg

ed_h
04-17-2019, 07:14 PM
Since you apparently don't really know anything about this guy other than that he was in your way, i think its a little presumptuous to call him an idiot based on just that. Even brilliant people sometimes get in other people's way.

A.K. Boomer
04-17-2019, 07:25 PM
I would not even joke about running over anyone nowadays -- too much of that going on already...

David Powell
04-17-2019, 07:50 PM
I would not even joke about running over anyone nowadays -- too much of that going on already...

Why did you not offer him a hand? Obvoiusly your 4 by 4 could have pulled him back on the pathway without problems.
Maybe he is not such a smart driver, but perhaps he is a nice fellow.
Karma tends to follow folk around.
I have been fortunate enough to have been on the receiving end of quite a few kind folks actions, and I can only hope that I have managed to repay those kindnesses to others.
Regards David Powell

martik
04-17-2019, 07:59 PM
Many years ago, when I was a teen I was driving on a bridge behind a slow poke. I got impatient and complained to my Uncle sitting beside me. He said don't be so quick to judge, maybe his wife died today and he's upset.

I've referred back to that wise advice countless times and even went out of my way to help an "apparent idiot". Some were indeed idiots but many had good reasons for their behavior

Ridgerunner
04-17-2019, 08:10 PM
Many years ago, when I was a teen I was driving on a bridge behind a slow poke. I got impatient and complained to my Uncle sitting beside me. He said don't be so quick to judge, maybe his wife died today and he's upset.

I've referred back to that wise advice countless times and even went out of my way to help an "apparent idiot". Some were indeed idiots but many had good reasons for their behavior

Along the same lines, in a psychology course in college, the professor played a movie. It was of a young girl driving with her grandfather as a passenger. A guy pulled out if front of her and she said, that idiot makes me so mad. The grandfather said, no, you make you so mad. I have never forgotten that.

Willy
04-17-2019, 08:19 PM
Running him over, as tempting as it sounds, won't teach him a thing though.
Now a two or three hundred dollar towing bill might get his attention enough so that next time he goes to the dump he might pick his battles with a little more thought. Chances are though that some machine operator at the dump will see his plight, and feeling partially responsible due to the poor conditions, will drag him out of there. I see it all the time locally. The idiot returns next monsoon/snow storm only to repeat the cycle all over again.

Consider the moment as just another lesson in human behavior. His actions help you to more appreciate those that are above that level. You have to raise the bar a bit as to who is a suitable candidate as tire fodder, otherwise it will get pretty quiet in town.
There are more deserving subjects that should be eliminated from the gene pool.:)

RB211
04-17-2019, 08:23 PM
When driving, I often wish I was magneto, and could fling people towards the sun.

JRouche
04-17-2019, 08:28 PM
OK not a big problem 'cuse I'm in my truck with 4 x 4 and I just drove around him though about a foot of mud.

Not sure why you are sweating it. I have a 4x4 and that sounds like a walk in the park. Maybe that lil ranger of yours is lacking :) JR

Brett Hurt
04-17-2019, 08:42 PM
patience grasshopper

nickel-city-fab
04-17-2019, 09:14 PM
I don't run over them anymore. Instead, I just pray that they have a stroke, then sit back and wait...

Mcgyver
04-17-2019, 09:42 PM
When driving, I often wish I was magneto, and could fling people towards the sun.

especially people who sit in left lane, don't move over, then when you go pass speed up.....I mean, get off the planet!


Many years ago, when I was a teen I was driving on a bridge behind a slow poke. I got impatient and complained to my Uncle sitting beside me. He said don't be so quick to judge, maybe his wife died today and he's upset.

wise words



It was of a young girl driving with her grandfather as a passenger. A guy pulled out if front of her and she said, that idiot makes me so mad. The grandfather said, no, you make you so mad.

wise words

Still, fling those left lane speeder uppers into the sun!

danlb
04-17-2019, 09:44 PM
Reading your post a second time, it occurred to me that the idiots are the people who set up "the towns compose site" in such a way that it needs a 4WD to get in and out of there. It seems that there is insufficient signage to guide a new user along the barely usable "path". It sounds like the place to dump the "compose" is not well marked either. Yep. It has all the hallmarks of a bunch of idiots or amateurs running the place. The guy in the minivan was just a victim of their ineptitude.

darryl
04-17-2019, 09:46 PM
Sometimes it's better to let them stew in their own doings- it's usually evident that some young boys or whatever have gotten themselves into a stupid situation by being 'boys'. When I feel that I can be of service to them by not helping them out, then I feel good. On the same hand, it's good for me to have helped someone out of a pickle- and it doesn't matter if they've been stupid or whatever. I'm helping myself by helping them- and I can certainly choose to not help them again- or to quit an effort in the middle of things if they don't come across well. If they prove that they're worthy of the path that 'god' has put before them, then who am I to interfere with that? :) But otherwise, while I might vocally darken the air in my vehicle in response to something a nitwit is doing, I'll still assess their situation and potentially offer them assistance. It works for me for my own well-being.

But I do like the idea of running over idiots- just seeing a visualization of it running through my head is entertaining enough.

RB211
04-17-2019, 09:47 PM
especially people who sit in left lane, don't move over, then when you go pass speed up.....I mean, get off the planet!



wise words



wise words

Still, fling those left lane speeder uppers into the sun!

More times than not, it is some one on their cell phone, or some one who is absolutely sure that they can stay there if they are going over the speed limit. If I was a cop, I would hand out 200 tickets a month to slowpokes in the left lane.

A.K. Boomer
04-17-2019, 10:02 PM
For the most part I do pretty good with the road rage thing but you have to realize where I live - canon city colo. is still a pretty small town,,, but all i have to do is go to pueblo or worse yet colo. springs and i start coming unglued at the seams,,, don't even get me started on denver...

I have no idea how some of you city pholk do it - it's so frustrating to me to be bumper to bumper in jam after jam,,, it's unbelievable to me that people actually do this as their routine and yet don't think twice about squeaking out 3 or 4 pups just so they can add to the insanity,,, that to me is the very definition of the word "idiot"...

David Powell
04-17-2019, 10:05 PM
More times than not, it is some one on their cell phone, or some one who is absolutely sure that they can stay there if they are going over the speed limit. If I was a cop, I would hand out 200 tickets a month to slowpokes in the left lane.

I want EVERY mile out of every tank of gas. I find that driving just under speed limits gives me that.
On the highway trucks pass me, usually I see them a long way back and they slowly catch up and eventually pass.
In the city I try to drive according to conditions up to 4 or 5 lights ahead and time everything so I do not have to actually stop.
Am I the only driver who places economy over speed.
Incidentally, in my previous GMC Jimmy I often got 24 mpg on the highway and the original front brake pads lasted over 150,000 km..
I reckon its a bit like machining, slow down a little and gain a lot.
Regards David Powell.

Willy
04-17-2019, 10:20 PM
For the most part I do pretty good with the road rage thing but you have to realize where I live - canon city colo. is still a pretty small town,,, but all i have to do is go to pueblo or worse yet colo. springs and i start coming unglued at the seams,,, don't even get me started on denver...

I have no idea how some of you city pholk do it - it's so frustrating to me to be bumper to bumper in jam after jam,,, it's unbelievable to me that people actually do this as their routine and yet don't think twice about squeaking out 3 or 4 pups just so they can add to the insanity,,, that to me is the very definition of the word "idiot"...

I call it the "too many rats in a cage" syndrome. We all know what happens next.

J Tiers
04-18-2019, 01:17 AM
it is OK to consider running them over. The more you think about it, the less likely you are to do it.

The ones who actually DO, are the ones who see said idiot being an idiot, fly off the handle, and step on the gas before they have a chance to think. Most of them have probably been bottling it up for years, so they are just about ready to pop, and then someone sets them off.

Happened to a guy I know... he parked in a place on the street the neighbor thought was his by right, and the neighbor (of the people he was visiting) blew up in a rage and ran him over. Killed him. I doubt the guy would have done that if he had had to think about it for as much as 15 seconds, but he didn't have to think, he just pressed the gas. Seems he was one of those pissed off at everything / everyone type folks. Happens a fair bit with those types when it only takes pulling a little trigger, too.


I call it the "too many rats in a cage" syndrome. We all know what happens next.

Don't need to wait, it started a decade back. Or so.

6PTsocket
04-18-2019, 03:12 AM
When driving, I often wish I was magneto, and could fling people towards the sun.Why so much anger? There are enough on the road doing damage to others.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

DennisCA
04-18-2019, 03:24 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zp6N92szl00

Ringo
04-18-2019, 08:48 AM
If he is the idiot you say he is, let him attain his very own Darwin Award.
Perhaps you may even read about in the local newpaper.

enginuity
04-18-2019, 09:37 AM
When I turned 16 many years ago I put my first car on the road after spending the entire summer (and all my working wages) on fixing it up.

On a winter day on my way home from school I hit ice. I was driving too fast for the conditions (I wasn't speeding though). I put the car in the ditch. Thankfully I didn't hit anyone, or anything. The only thing that was hurt was my pride, and my freshly painted and rebuilt car.

After struggling to get the car out of the ditch an older gentleman and his son pulled over in their pickup truck. He looked at me, smiled, and said "Son I'll pull you out". He grabbed chain out of the back of his truck and pulled my car back on the road. I drove home and spent the next month fixing my car again.

I wasn't smart to put my car in the ditch. I was an idiot really. But I was so thankful for the kindness of a complete stranger. I'll never forget that.

loose nut
04-18-2019, 09:58 AM
Since you apparently don't really know anything about this guy other than that he was in your way, i think its a little presumptuous to call him an idiot based on just that. Even brilliant people sometimes get in other people's way.

Anyone that try's to tow a trailer with a minivan through that much mud is an IDIOT!!!


Why did you not offer him a hand? Obviously your 4 by 4 could have pulled him back on the pathway without problems.
l

My truck would have had to be knee deep in mud to line up with his to even try to pull him, no way that would work. He needed a proper tow.



Not sure why you are sweating it. I have a 4x4 and that sounds like a walk in the park. Maybe that lil ranger of yours is lacking :) JR

My Ranger did just fine, it isn't some oversized monster of a truck that guys with penis envy buy to over compensate but it gets me around.


I don't run over them anymore. Instead, I just pray that they have a stroke, then sit back and wait...



I wouldn't wish a stroke on anyone. To much experience with family members (wife and father) that way. Running him over would be more humane.


For the most part I do pretty good with the road rage thing..

It wasn't road rage there weren't any roads so it was just regular rage.

OK guys some of you actually thought I was serious about running the guy over, that would be crazy. So ya I was actually thinking about it. You know, truck spins in mud and swerves out of control. Terrible accident. Tears and anguish.

Have to go now. Blood, sorry I meant mud to wash off of the truck.

David Powell
04-18-2019, 10:24 AM
Anyone that try's to tow a trailer with a minivan through that much mud is an IDIOT!!!



My truck would have had to be knee deep in mud to line up with his to even try to pull him, no way that would work. He needed a proper tow.




My Ranger did just fine, it isn't some oversized monster of a truck that guys with penis envy buy to over compensate but it gets me around.



I wouldn't wish a stroke on anyone. To much experience with family members (wife and father) that way. Running him over would be more humane.



It wasn't road rage there weren't any roads so it was just regular rage.

OK guys some of you actually thought I was serious about running the guy over, that would be crazy. So ya I was actually thinking about it. You know, truck spins in mud and swerves out of control. Terrible accident. Tears and anguish.

Have to go now. Blood, sorry I meant mud to wash off of the truck.
In 2005 my late wife and I drove across Canada towing a 2000lb model traction engine and all its gear on a heavy trailer behind my GMC Jimmy,
We stopped for lunch in a small town and parked where I thought I could easily turn and get out.
When it was time to leave the easy way out was blocked with the lunch time cars, but there was a fresh gravel road leading back to the tarmac road.
So without hesitation I set off, 200 feet further on we began to sink in, I dropped into 4 high, pulled a bit further, dropped into 4 low and kept going.
I left deep tire tracks and a trailer jack mark all the way to the tarmac. We were lucky.
I have towed and been towed in all sorts of vehicles for nearly 60 years, and this was a memorable experience
I will take a look to see if my damage to the gravel road is still evident( Doubtful, but I am the curious sort)
That experience showed me that even I ( Complete with the motto, I am from Ontario, I have 4 wheel drive and big tread tires) am not immune to unexpectedly getting stuck.
Regards David Powell.

JHartley
04-18-2019, 11:07 AM
Have you ever noticed that anybody
driving slower than you is an idiot,
and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
George Carlin

plastikosmd
04-18-2019, 11:21 AM
“Every where you go, there you are”

ed_h
04-18-2019, 12:14 PM
Anyone that try's to tow a trailer with a minivan through that much mud is an IDIOT!!!


I guess I'd just never seen that definition of idiot before. It usually implies someone with low intelligence.

I'm guessing that the guy was a PhD in astrophysics who didn't have much experience with towing.

Ed

gellfex
04-18-2019, 12:35 PM
I love my minivan!

https://i.imgur.com/SxTJyLd.jpg

Me too! Was sad when they discontinued the short body AWD Caravans.

https://i.imgur.com/q7zjD8D.png

A.K. Boomer
04-18-2019, 01:04 PM
What in gods name ----------------- ?

gellfex
04-18-2019, 01:14 PM
What in gods name ----------------- ?

You'll know soon enough when I rule the earth! Bwah, ha ha ha ha ha!

Gort just needs some parts hard to get on this planet....

A.K. Boomer
04-18-2019, 01:23 PM
I get it - i used to have a friend that was pagan...

PStechPaul
04-18-2019, 01:30 PM
Not the first time someone got great head in the back of a mini-van! :rolleyes:

gellfex
04-18-2019, 03:21 PM
I guess none of you have seen Wicked.

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/RainbowJude/MusicalCyberspace/Wicked/wicked2010nyc07.jpg

Dan Dubeau
04-18-2019, 03:24 PM
I guess none of you have seen Wicked.

Big fan, are ya?

krutch
04-18-2019, 03:33 PM
Not to want to, but actually doing will get you some trouble. Especially if the idiot is in one of the "protected" class.

gellfex
04-18-2019, 03:42 PM
Big fan, are ya?

Sure, put a lot in the bank for me.

justanengineer
04-18-2019, 03:45 PM
I prefer to focus on driving when I'm behind the wheel rather than daydreaming about capital crimes. I taught combat driving in the military for a few years then performance/race driving at a private track after. In both cases blocking out distractions to remain focused and calm was one of the biggest issues students had.

Baz
04-18-2019, 04:46 PM
I live at the end of a road next to common land so lots of people come there to walk their dogs. There is some hard parking and room at the edge of the road but much of it has soft verges, especially after rain and some parts of the road are narrow so you have to pull over in a wider part to let other cars coming the other way go past.
But every few months there is some pea brained asshole in a 4x4 who just has to park on the soft verge or not stop in the wider part but plough a great furrow in the verge all because they have a 4x4 and want to show off how they can drive anywhere. The ruts take 2 maybe 3 years to recover grass, the rain washes down the rut taking the thin earth down to block the drains and cause a flood further down the road. I have a Landrover and could drive off the road but I also have a brain. These brainless twats from the town just don't think further than their ego.

A.K. Boomer
04-18-2019, 04:49 PM
I guess none of you have seen Wicked.

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/RainbowJude/MusicalCyberspace/Wicked/wicked2010nyc07.jpg

You mean Wiccan? Hey - that's that guy in the van ! so he was in full form? just a big head with no body? Mommy had him late in life?

loose nut
04-18-2019, 07:03 PM
I guess I'd just never seen that definition of idiot before. It usually implies someone with low intelligence.

I'm guessing that the guy was a PhD in astrophysics who didn't have much experience with towing.

Ed

At one time there was a specific definition for IDIOT IE: low intelligence and possible that is true for him but I would wager that in this case he is an idiot because he wasn't able to see the obvious and probably costly error he was about to make and not necessarily a reflection of his intelligence. Idiot has now taken on the meaning of someone, possibly a PHD even, that does something really stupid when they should have known better.

No PHD's in astrophysics around here, well not unless they are passing through on vacation.

tomato coupe
04-18-2019, 07:18 PM
No PHD's in astrophysics around here, well not unless they are passing through on vacation.

You never know. The proprietor of our small-town pizza joint has a PhD in astrophysics.

danlb
04-18-2019, 07:43 PM
A kid on my bowling team got his advanced degree in astrophysics from UC Berkeley. Then he found out what they do for a living and decided that it was not for him. When I described my job he decided that he wanted to work in a data center as a systems designer, systems admin or something similar. He enrolled in the community college much to the dismay of his parents.

The kid was bright, but not too smart.

Oh, the tie in: PHDs can be anywhere doing anything.

Dan

DennisCA
04-19-2019, 01:23 AM
I dunno, doing what you like instead of something you hate for the money sounds good to me.

lynnl
04-19-2019, 07:42 AM
I suspect that a goodly number of advanced degree holders (including Phd's) simply drifted through academia because of fear or no vision of career opportunity in the outside world. Certainly true of many I've known.

"....I'll just stay here where I'm comfortable and get my Master's/Phd..."

Mcgyver
04-19-2019, 07:51 AM
I suspect that a goodly number of advanced degree holders (including Phd's) simply drifted through academia because of fear or no vision of career opportunity in the outside world. Certainly true of many I've known.

"....I'll just stay here where I'm comfortable and get my Master's/Phd..."

Thats a bit harsh. Perhaps the merits of that life are what is appealing, not fear. An uncle was (just retired) was a philosophy professor and I have to say on reflection he's had a great life. Peaceful, gentle and secure, lots of travel, lived in amazing places, time off and intellectual stimulation. Its not the path I chose, but its hard to look his life and see many that measure up to it in fulfillment. Given his profession has essentially been to think and he brings some intellect to that, he's by far the most interesting and fun person I know to have a conversation with.

Arcane
04-19-2019, 07:52 AM
I suspect that a goodly number of advanced degree holders (including Phd's) simply drifted through academia because of fear or no vision of career opportunity in the outside world. Certainly true of many I've known.

"....I'll just stay here where I'm comfortable and get my Master's/Phd..."

Yeah, some are just professional students...

ed_h
04-19-2019, 08:30 AM
I suspect that a goodly number of advanced degree holders (including Phd's) simply drifted through academia because of fear or no vision of career opportunity in the outside world. Certainly true of many I've known.

"....I'll just stay here where I'm comfortable and get my Master's/Phd..."

I spent a decade or so in academia, and i certainly knew people like that. They liked school and never left--just switched sides of the podium. It can be a bit of a cloistered environment, but in many ways its not so different from working on the "outside".

Ed

A.K. Boomer
04-19-2019, 08:48 AM
I tell people that it's ok for them to call me an idiot once in awhile, but they better throw in the word "savant" behind it real quick like before they get a knuckle sandwich... :p

Iv bent my reading glasses by smacking my forehead when I discovered something of importance and forgetting they were up there,,, to most that would be the very definition of an idiot esp. if just viewing it and not knowing the full story,,, to me it was just another eye glass casualty from an original thought that I was pretty sure all 7.5 billion people on the planet never even came close to having... :cool:

I like the way my brain works... i don't think that's a conceited statement, there's nothing wrong with being happy to be you and in fact I think everyone should feel that way...

Edit; Make no mistake --- from time to time I am one clumsy bastard... i eat allot of humble pie along the way.

loose nut
04-19-2019, 10:03 AM
You never know. The proprietor of our small-town pizza joint has a PhD in astrophysics.

I live in a town of 3000 people in farm country with no large cities near by. All the astrophysicists left when the towns 300 inch Catadioptric Telescope observatory was shut down.

Pretty sure the guy running our pizza place isn't a PHD, good chance he didn't graduate high school but he is getting along just fine.


Perhaps the merits of that life are what is appealing, not fear. An uncle was (just retired) was a philosophy professor and I have to say on reflection he's had a great life. Peaceful, gentle and secure, lots of travel, lived in amazing places, time off and intellectual stimulation. Its not the path I chose, but its hard to look his life and see many that measure up to it in fulfillment. Given his profession has essentially been to think and he brings some intellect to that, he's by far the most interesting and fun person I know to have a conversation with.

Hey what ever gets you through life right.

polaraligned
04-19-2019, 09:59 PM
Would I be justified in running this guy over (almost an accident too) and ridding the world of another person that shouldn't be allowed to waste air or is that a bit over the top???
Dude, you have to ask us? Just run the idiot over and be done with it. Man up.

Lee Cordochorea
04-19-2019, 11:05 PM
I respectfully suggest that pity is a more ethical response to idiots than is contempt. That said, I'm not as ethical as I could be when it comes to idiots.

ed_h
04-20-2019, 01:28 AM
Very often, idiocy is in the eye of the beholder.

Ed

CalM
04-20-2019, 02:25 AM
Yes, It is wrong to want to run over idiots.

Are you some sort of IDIOT!

Brett Hurt
04-20-2019, 09:17 AM
No but I would like to run my neighbour because he is a troll.

Glug
04-20-2019, 10:25 AM
An uncle was (just retired) was a philosophy professor and I have to say on reflection he's had a great life. Peaceful, gentle and secure, lots of travel, lived in amazing places, time off and intellectual stimulation. Its not the path I chose, but its hard to look his life and see many that measure up to it in fulfillment.

"A calm and modest life brings more happiness than the pursuit of success combined with constant restlessness." - Einstein.

SteveF
04-20-2019, 10:40 AM
Very often, idiocy is in the eye of the beholder.

Ed

So you are suggesting that there may be a grey area when evaluating the guy who almost hit you because he decided to update his Facebook page while driving down the highway?

Steve

3 Phase Lightbulb
04-20-2019, 10:50 AM
I dunno, doing what you like instead of something you hate for the money sounds good to me.

Doing what you absolutely love and earning tons of money is even better :)

ed_h
04-20-2019, 11:24 AM
So you are suggesting that there may be a grey area when evaluating the guy who almost hit you because he decided to update his Facebook page while driving down the highway?

Steve

No, that would be a silly interpretation.

Ed

danlb
04-20-2019, 02:54 PM
So you are suggesting that there may be a grey area when evaluating the guy who almost hit you because he decided to update his Facebook page while driving down the highway?

Steve

I might be tempted to say that it's idiocy to presume that the reason he almost hit you was that he was updating his Facebook page. There are, after all, many things you can do with a cell phone that are not apparent to the car drivers in the vicinity.

But I wont say that because the person may have been using a 10 inch tablet and you may have been the passenger who was looking into the other guy's car with a clear view of the tablet.

Yep, there are many, many ways to explain away things that appear idiotic.

Dan

reggie_obe
04-20-2019, 03:25 PM
I guess none of you have seen Wicked.

[QUOTE=Dan Dubeau;1234123]Big fan, are ya?


Sure, put a lot in the bank for me.

A stage prop he crafted. Color areas in the original inage must be some type of filler/Bondo?

3 Phase Lightbulb
04-20-2019, 03:40 PM
"Now one of the good things in our lives about the men who loves their wives, who take their kids when they go fishing, spend their working days just wishing to make things better, a fireman who climbs a tree and sets a little kitten free, a policeman who helps you cross the avenue, a man who stops when you're broken down, and asks if you need a lift a town, or simply says... Friend, what can I do" -- John Wayne

lakeside53
04-20-2019, 04:02 PM
Attribution? written by the writer, not the actor! ;)