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View Full Version : Tell me about Straight shank tooling vs B&S #9 vs R8 vs 5C



Ringo
05-05-2019, 08:10 PM
Tell me about that, the virtues, the weakness's.
I am looking at a little old Sheldon O mill, B&S 9 spindle.
Everybody says that tooling is the bain of the machine, none available, hard to deal with.
Well B&S 9 straight collets are easy to find. Dedicated shank tooling is another story though.
Whats wrong with straight collets, and straight shank tooling?
Everybody turns straight shank in 5C for gee whiz sake, no problems reported.
ER32 is straight shank collet and it is supposed to be the cats meow.
TTs Tormach is a straight shank, and it is the CNC cat's meow.
I even saw a TTS Tormach ER32 collet chuck. Now that is a straight shank driving another straight shank. (straight shank x2)?

So what is wrong with B&S 9 that makes such a machine cumbersome?
Why not just run straight shank tooling, then I could interchange tooling into my R8 mill, and my 5C lathe chuck?
How mandatory is the weldon holder grub screw?

Mcgyver
05-05-2019, 09:47 PM
there is nothing wrong with it. It means your set up will be a little lighter than tooling held directly in the spindle and there's possibly an argument for increased run out (everytime you layer in another fit). Tooling won't be as easy to come by for the B&S 9. The mills nice and great deal those shouldn't be show stoppers. Its like, all things being equal, Cat 40 is better than R8 ....but it doesn't mean I'm not happy with my R8

larry_g
05-05-2019, 10:55 PM
So what is wrong with B&S 9 that makes such a machine cumbersome?
Why not just run straight shank tooling, then I could interchange tooling into my R8 mill, and my 5C lathe chuck?
How mandatory is the weldon holder grub screw?

Whats wrong with B&S taper tooling is that it's an old standard that has probably not been produced on a machine spindle in 50 years. So it is limited in the variety of tooling that you can get new to fit the spindle. As far as tool holding it will hold a tool just like an R-8 collet. Over the last 100+ years a lot of spindle tapers have come and gone. Some of the ones you listed may be around in 50 years some not. I'm familiar with the Sheldon 0 mill and would not let the spindle taper prevent me from buying it. Just don't expect to find all tooling available in B&S taper.

lg
no neat sig line

J Tiers
05-06-2019, 01:27 AM
You can MAKE tooling in any taper you want.

http://i.imgur.com/7cEBi6h.jpg (https://imgur.com/7cEBi6h)

Ringo
05-06-2019, 10:01 PM
OK, what material to start with turning your own arbors and such?
1045?
1144 ?
1018?
then do you harden it?
I was thinking of a standard B&S #9 end mill holder 1" and get a piece of 1" TGP already keyed to use as a horiz arbor, then all I would have to do is turn the bearing support end.

alanganes
05-06-2019, 10:24 PM
I have a south bend vertical mill that uses a no longer common holder and collet setup to hold the tooling. You can still buy the collets and holders but I have never needed any additional ones.

Almost all of my tooling is straight shank. In the almost 30 years Ive owned that machine it has never caused me any distress. I have 7 or 8 collets for most of the common sized tools, an ER11 straight shank thing for tiny endmills and such, and just make a straight shank-to-whatever else I happen to come across and need for something. It's not a big deal for a hobby shop guy like me. If you are a production shop, it may be a whole different thing.

If you like the mill and the deal is right, I'd vote to get it and start milling stuff.

BCRider
05-07-2019, 01:06 AM
OK, what material to start with turning your own arbors and such?
1045?
1144 ?
1018?
then do you harden it?
I was thinking of a standard B&S #9 end mill holder 1" and get a piece of 1" TGP already keyed to use as a horiz arbor, then all I would have to do is turn the bearing support end.

The pictures of some MT3 tooling and end mill holders I made are on an older hard drive that I need to power up and save. They were on PB but went away when I cleared and cancelled my account there. But the MT3 tooling I made was all just done in mild steel then I took some care not to drop or abuse it. And it held up just fine for a lot of years until I got my new R8 medium size knee mill. My BIL is using the old stuff now.

There's really no need to make it from anything fancy if you are using it yourself and in a home shop situation. And no need to harden it if you're not going to grind it. The MT3 tooling I made wasn't hardened and wasn't ground. Just kissed smooth with the lathe file and then tested and slightly kissed as needed to get a good contact to the female taper.

And the B&S #9 seems to be roughly the size of the MT3.

The end mill holders I made used the set screw and the end mills fitted up into reamed holes. I made the holders such that the set screws were close to the end of the spindle. This limited me to up to 5/8 shanks to be reasonable since the shanks fit up into the MT section to keep the overhang value low. But that was OK since I didn't have any 3/4" stuff at the time.

So yeah, I'm going to go along with JTier's post and suggest you dive in and learn to just make your own end mill holders and other tooling arbors. It's really not that bad.

And do stick to the set screws. What I found with the MT3 collets that my old mill came with was that by the time the collet was tight enough on the shank of the end mill not to slip the tapered collet was so tight in the taper that I really had to wail away on the draw bar. Like FAR too excessively to do that to the bearings each time and it would be tough on the drawbar and collet threads to boot. Now if it were a captured "self releasing" draw bar then perhaps. But it wasn't so that meant beating the blazes out of the poor thing. So I don't think I ever used the collets after that. So I would not suggest going looking for B&S collets or using them for holding end mills even if you do find some.

strokersix
05-07-2019, 10:39 AM
And do stick to the set screws. What I found with the MT3 collets that my old mill came with was that by the time the collet was tight enough on the shank of the end mill not to slip the tapered collet was so tight in the taper that I really had to wail away on the draw bar. Like FAR too excessively to do that to the bearings each time and it would be tough on the drawbar and collet threads to boot. Now if it were a captured "self releasing" draw bar then perhaps. But it wasn't so that meant beating the blazes out of the poor thing. So I don't think I ever used the collets after that. So I would not suggest going looking for B&S collets or using them for holding end mills even if you do find some.

This is insightful. Thanks.

Ringo
05-07-2019, 11:50 AM
I made my rounds to local machine shops grabbing up off-cuts and drop cuts, scored some 2" 1045 & 2" 1018.
I think I'll pony up the $$$ for a B&S 9 something or other, then dial indicate that taper in my lathe compound.
This would allow me to pre-turn B&S 9 taper on some 2" stock, I could have a drawer full of #9 arbor blanks.

BCRider
05-07-2019, 12:11 PM
That sounds like a great plan. Once set up and in the swing of it it's a lot easier to keep going and have a bunch on hand for future use.

But along with that see if you can find also find a #9 socket of some sort in good shape. A parallel outside with a #9 internal socket from a turret lathe would be ideal because later on you could use the parallel outside of the turret lathe holder in your four jaw to hold the blank end for turning.

What I did with my MT3's was to turn the taper first. Then lightly file to remove the crests of the cutting pattern so there was still lines of grooves but with flat "plateaus" instead of sharp crests or nubbins from tearing.

Then I would draw 3 or 4 felt marker lines along the length of the taper. Then fit the socket very lightly and slightly twist the socket to wear the felt marker lines along the length. Where they wore I'd kiss the diameter a touch more with the big wide lathe file to remove the fat band. Re-mark and test again until I got the felt lines to all wear evenly along their length. It's not as much trouble as it sounds after the first one and you get a feel for how much to kiss off with the file. Also when I consider options I'd suggest you stick to a good wide lathe file or at least a large and wide fine cut file rather than any sort of abrasives. Again the idea is to leave flat plateaus of metal that all line up rather than cut more grooves which you'd get with any sort of abrasives.

As I type this I'm thinking that it was the flat and even surface area left by the file and all those flat plateaus that made my tapers lock so well. With a bit of work I was able to get to the point where just a light thump to bump the socket home on my taper resulted in requiring a good rap to knock it loose. And it's that idea that it takes a lot more to knock it loose than what you used to thump it home that you're after. That is the mark of a well fitted taper.

Ringo
05-07-2019, 01:02 PM
Also in my search I found a B&S9/ER32 collet chuck.
That just might be the 'end'.

Doozer
05-07-2019, 01:13 PM
Also in my search I found a B&S9/ER32 collet chuck.
That just might be the 'end'.

That was going to be my suggestion.
In my shop, I have several machines adapted to ER40.

-Doozer

Mike Amick
05-07-2019, 01:29 PM
My machine was B&S9 and I converted it to R8. In my search of your original question I found that there were way too
many stories of people getting the B&S9 tools stuck in their machine. I mean really stuck.

But your idea of adding an adapter would fix that problem.

Good luck

J Tiers
05-07-2019, 01:49 PM
Depending on the exact configuration of the spindle, it might be fairly easy to put in a self-ejecting drawbar for spindle tooling.

Essentially that attaches a cap to the back of the spindle (I used the extra threads that were sticking out). When tightening the drawbar (and they do not have to be crazy tight) the outside nut on the drawbar tightens normally against the cap. When removing, a collar attached to the drawbar hits the inside of the cap, and pushes the taper of the tool out. No hammering, no drama, just a squeeze of the two wrenches, one on the nut, and one on the cap, and the taper comes loose with a "pop".

I find that with a good fit of the taper, the drawbar can be tightened to just a couple foot lb and then will pop out without trouble. You do want the drawbar to be as large as will fit through the spindle, so that it pushes and does nt just fold up in there.

http://i.imgur.com/OXXQiit.jpg (https://imgur.com/OXXQiit)

http://i.imgur.com/97lYAqA.jpg (https://imgur.com/97lYAqA)

Ringo
05-07-2019, 02:16 PM
I also thought about the R8 thing, but, I don't know if I trust myself to bore that in situ. What if it starts chattering?, what if I miss the correct taper?
Another thing that come to mind, (I found MT2 reamer) is to make a BS9/MT2 sleeve.
I got several options:
1. get the set of BS9 straight collets and run straight shanks
2. take time & wait for BS9 tooling to come my way as I can find it
3. turn a batch of BS9 soft blank arbors
4. turn a BS9/MT2 sleeve and run MT2 tooling
5. acquire a BS9/BS7 sleeve and run BS7
6. Turn R8 in situ in the spindle
Gee whiz, out of all that I should be able to cobble something together !!

BCRider
05-07-2019, 03:51 PM
Also in my search I found a B&S9/ER32 collet chuck.
That just might be the 'end'.

That's one option. But consider the amount of overhang of the tool that this produces. The B&S #9 is roughly the size of an MT3. And add on the ER chuck side of things and now you've got an extra 1.75 to maybe 2" of overhang that will load up the nose bearing that much more and amplify any play or flex in the setup.

I honestly feel that a big amount of my success with my old RF20 size round column mill/drill was due to my OCD'ism over minimizing tool extension. This led me to the end mill holders being as small and short as I could manage. And I was always amazed at how well it handled even some fairly aggressive cuts. The belts would complain and the odd time I had to play with the tension to quiet them down. But once I did I could only hear a sizzling bacon type of sound from the cutters themselves. I counted that as a win for low overhang setups.

It would still be a nice adapter to have for any number of other reasons. But if you find that pushing it leads to some chatter consider the shop made lower overhang arbors again.

BCRider
05-07-2019, 03:56 PM
I find that with a good fit of the taper, the drawbar can be tightened to just a couple foot lb and then will pop out without trouble. You do want the drawbar to be as large as will fit through the spindle, so that it pushes and does not just fold up in there.

That's how I was able to use the holders I made that used the setscrew to hold the end mills. But when I tried using a light lock like that with the collets I got very poor grip on the shanks of the end mills. I guess it's a case of YMMV from mill to mill due to small differences in the main shaft spindle taper most likely.

When I felt penned a couple of my R8 collets and seated them normally on my new mill with cutters in place I did find that the main contact was down at the mouth end of the collet. I wonder if that's why I seem to get away with less torque on the drawbar than some indicate on the board. And perhaps on those old MT3 collets which gave me troubles the spindle was putting much of the pressure towards the end with the drawbar threads? That might have been why it didn't hold the end mills well. Yet my MT3 arbors adjusted to work well with the new MT3 socket worked just fine.

J Tiers
05-07-2019, 06:38 PM
That's how I was able to use the holders I made that used the setscrew to hold the end mills. But when I tried using a light lock like that with the collets I got very poor grip on the shanks of the end mills. I guess it's a case of YMMV from mill to mill due to small differences in the main shaft spindle taper most likely.

.....

I never use collets in the H-spindle of the mill, so I have not got to get them tight enough to hold even a greased pig. Collets are another issue entirely, and my comments are entirely with reference to solid tapers. If you look closely at the pic of the various tooling, you will notice that I did not even cut the entire length of the MT3 taper, because on the Logan, the compound is has not the travel to go the full length. But they still hold tight.

The collets touch near the end so that they will come into full contact on the taper when they are holding an exact size shank. When they are not compressed, they will be slightly open. If they were still open a bit, or not in contact, when the cutter was in place and tight, maybe one of the various components is not exactly to size.

BCRider
05-08-2019, 12:20 AM
......my comments are entirely with reference to solid tapers.

Ah, that makes more sense and totally agrees with my own experience with that old MT3 machine. Like you say the solid tapers didn't need a whole lot of torque on the drawbar to lock really well. And I limited it to the amount which was able to snap free with a fairly light "love tap" delivered by an old 5lb lead scuba weight. And like it would seem you found that's all the locking tension it ever needed to avoid slipping at all.

And as mentioned before the whole point was to not beat the crap out of the spindle bearings on the mill.

I prefer your solution with the self releasing action of the drawbar. But it's one of those things that I never got around to doing.

Ringo
05-08-2019, 08:21 AM
I'm glad you mentioned about the short MT taper shank you turned. you say the short taper still holds well.
I'm eyeing a 30 taper horiz arbor on that infamous auction site. 30 taper has same drawbar thread as BS9. I'm wanting to try to turn down 30 taper to BS9, it would end up as a short shank.

J Tiers
05-08-2019, 09:59 AM
The BS9 should hold at least as well as the MT3.

However, you may have some issues of concentricity etc unless you are very careful, since you are turning a taper on an existing shank. Getting things lined up will be essential.

When I made mine, I was able to "cheat" a bit, since I could turn all parts of it between the same centers as for the taper. You will need to rely on whatever is left of the existing centers. Often over time they will get bunged up. If the mill it was used with is one of the type that use the center as a bearing, then it may be worn and no longer be good, or may not even be at a 60 degree angle due to wear. That can make trouble for which you need to be prepared.

You may have to re-cut the center, and the center at the taper end is probably gone, due to the drawbar hole. A remainder may be around the hole, but that also may be banged up due to years of inserting and removing the drawbar.

BCRider
05-08-2019, 12:26 PM
Just dive in and do it with raw stock. I know that I fretted a lot before I did my MT3 tapers. But with the socket of the matching taper to use as a test socket you'll have a good instant feedback.

The one thing I didn't have or do at the time was ensure that both the indicator and the cutter were dead on centered for height. Oh sure, I eyeballed it but at the time I didn't have a QCTP where I could move it up and down to actually see the change in the dial gauge and get it dead on center. But that was then and this is now. So by all means use proper techniques and just dive in. It's not as hard as it seems to get a good fit. Especially once you have a B&S socket to test it with the marks as I suggested a few posts back.

Cutting down 30 taper tooling seems like a lot more work than it's worth to just save you doing a drilling and tapping operation. And the commercially available stuff of that sort will be hardened and ground. So tough to turn. I think you had the right idea with making them from some manner of tough but still readily machined raw stock.

Ringo
05-08-2019, 04:53 PM
Before I put a lot of money into good raw stock (TGP, or keyed shafting), I would still have to pay shipping, and then the final answer is a unknown to me, I'm not a pro at this stuff like some of you guys.
I made a lowball bid on that infamous auction site and a 30 taper arbor is supposed to be on the way. If, I cannot turn the shank, I can amputate the 30taper, and mount whats leftover in a end mill holder????
If, this works out OK, then I'll jump in both feet with good paid for raw stock.
......for the $10 price of this ebay arbor, I bet I got a 50/50 chance it is a soft import shank.......and I can turn it !!!!!

J Tiers
05-08-2019, 05:59 PM
Material-wise, you can use 4140 PH, which I did, using 1144 might also be good, it machines well, or you can just use CRS, which will be fine for a long time. Make an end mill holder at the same time so that you can cut the keyway......

You will need 3 things to go with the arbor: A nut for the end, which is fairly easy to deal with. Spacers to go between the nut and the cutter and the cutter and drive end stop, to fill the space. A "running bushing" to run in the overarm bearing to support the arbor.

There are useful ways to get around the running bushing, but the others you need. While you can make the spacers, it is economical to buy them made to size.

You may want to make more than one arbor.... I made one 7/8", and a 1 1/4", got the 1" with the machine. All sizes need the spacers, which do need to be accurately made to avoid wobble and looseness.

Ringo
05-08-2019, 06:26 PM
yeah, the $10 ebay arbor I dont believe comes with spacers, however, I been looking at arbors to low-bid just to get spacers......be it 50 taper or whatnot.
gosh, buying spacers as stand alone items cost as much as a new arbor !!!

Doozer
05-09-2019, 09:08 AM
Just another vote for 1144 steel for making arbors and general shop use.
It is called Stressproof steel, developed by Niagara LaSalle, and is very
nice to machine and medium hardness and strength. It also drills and
taps well, no problems. It is a little more $ than 1020 steel, but worth it.

-Doozer

BCRider
05-09-2019, 01:14 PM
Just another vote for 1144 steel for making arbors and general shop use.
It is called Stressproof steel, developed by Niagara LaSalle, and is very
nice to machine and medium hardness and strength. It also drills and
taps well, no problems. It is a little more $ than 1020 steel, but worth it.

-Doozer

Considering that my own hot rolled mild steel tapers did well for many years of use before I passed the mill and bits to my BIL I'd say that anything more than basic hot rolled is a plus. I'd say that the biggest issue with holders is that the tapers not get dinged, which affects the lock, and that the holes for the end mills do not wallow out. Being a one man shop I took pains to ensure that my shop made tapers didn't get dinged and the mill itself pretty much ensured that I could not push the cutters hard enough to cause the holes to wallow out.

Having said that I think a nice higher toughness alloy that machines well would be a nice option. Especially if the mill is larger and has the sort of power and metal removal ability as a Bridgeport.... which my small RF20 sized mill drill certainly did not have. So yeah, that 1144 sounds like a good option.

Ringo
05-09-2019, 02:11 PM
I just looked at the online metal store, 1144 is cheaper than 1045, and 1144 supposed to machine as well as 1018.

J Tiers
05-09-2019, 02:15 PM
I just looked at the online metal store, 1144 is cheaper than 1045, and 1144 supposed to machine as well as 1018.
Generally BETTER than 1018, which can be a bit gummy

4140 PH machines well also.

Ringo
05-09-2019, 03:40 PM
what is 4140PH?
is PH pre-hardened?
I see 4140 offered as annealed or heat treated. what is PH?

I also saw a 41L40, I presume to have some lead in it such as 12L14?

J Tiers
05-09-2019, 06:03 PM
"heat treated" does not say much. It might be the same as he PH, or not.

The "PH" material is generally hardened to around RC 34. McMaster just calls it "hardened", no "PH".

Doozer
05-09-2019, 08:33 PM
This is an area that used to confuse me a bit,
but I think I have it sorted out.
When talking about 4140 type steels, PH means
I believe Pre-Heatreated.
When it comes to stainless alloys, PH means
Precipitation Hardened.
Odd I know, but I think that is right.

-Doozer

Ringo
05-10-2019, 08:08 PM
That infamous internet auction site had a set of Morse Taper #2 reamers for not big money, I got them.
I'll try to make a B&S9/MT2 sleeve.
That should be a good home project.

RWO
05-11-2019, 01:16 PM
If you get desperate, there is this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Morse-Taper-2-to-Brown-Sharpe-Taper-9-Sleeve/351351621815?hash=item51ce3048b7:g:ASAAAOSwPhdVEXk 7

RWO

BCRider
05-11-2019, 02:16 PM
That infamous internet auction site had a set of Morse Taper #2 reamers for not big money, I got them.
I'll try to make a B&S9/MT2 sleeve.
That should be a good home project.

MT2 is fine for reamers and the like and maybe for smaller size end mills. But for bigger loads I'm thinking that the small MT2 neck is going to act like a flexible hinge.

As I was reading the quoted post I had this idea of simply buying an MT3 reamer and reaming out the B&S to MT3. Looking at THIS CHART AT LMS clearly that isn't going to work. But it does look like you could rough out then finish the taper to MT4.

And for that matter looking at the dimensions more closely it sure does look like your original idea of cleaning up the spindle for an R8 would be viable. There's not all that much metal that would need to be removed to allow for an R8.

Ringo
05-11-2019, 02:48 PM
I got the MT2 reamers because that tooling is cheap and readily available. The infamous Bridgeport M head was MT2 and it carries a good following.
It will be a good project for a student like me, anyway. The little Clausing 8520 was MT2 also, and well respected.
MT2 fits my lathe tailstock, so anything from that fits as well.
I'll end up with a mixed bag of tooling, BS9, BS7, MT2, and the straight shanks too.
Even though the mill spindle is BS9, I think the motor is small and the spindle is overkill for the power.
For the motor size, MT2/BS7 is probably about right.
The table is only something like 5x22 in that neighborhood.
Those old INDEX mills used B&S9 but are as big as a Bridgeport are they not???

J Tiers
05-11-2019, 02:52 PM
If you get desperate, there is this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Morse-Taper-2-to-Brown-Sharpe-Taper-9-Sleeve/351351621815?hash=item51ce3048b7:g:ASAAAOSwPhdVEXk 7

RWO

Wow... THAT looks like s "because we can" price...

BCRider
05-11-2019, 04:22 PM
....It will be a good project for a student like me, anyway. ......
......Even though the mill spindle is BS9, I think the motor is small and the spindle is overkill for the power.......

That being the case I suspect you're right and it'll be a good match. I tend to obsess over rigidity in my setups too. I don't feel it's a bad thing but it does make me tend to go off on some setups. As always though if we stay within the limits of the setup it'll work just fine.

Ringo
05-11-2019, 06:48 PM
This little mill is offered at $200, it is dirty, nasty, and crummy looking. Not to mention the 100 year old spindle taper.
I've not even seen it under its own power.
It is a 2 hour drive to go get it, then I got to clean it up and get it going...........
Then I got got to listen to the better-half say 'what you need that for' ???!!!
I just wan't going to jump in unless I had some decent tooling options.
Now, after discussion, I think I got enough tooling options to go after it.

Ringo
05-13-2019, 06:17 PM
Well, I got a bit of encouragement this afternoon.
After receiving a dirty old, cheap, horizontal arbor from fleabay, (40taper) , I attempted to turn off the drive shoulders, and begin the operation to turn B&S9 on the shank.
HSS wouldn't even touch it, I could strike it with a file, but HSS in the lathe was a no-go.
I tried a carbide tool on the AXA post, and it sorta kinda wanted to cut.
It was nerve racking trying to turn that hard stuff with the interrupted shoulder cut, thump/bump/thump/bump, I had to dress the bit a few times, but after I got the drive shoulders turned off, it ran much better.
It ran better enough I got a decent fuzzy feeling I could:
a: turn some other arbor to B&S9
b: turn the mill spindle in-situ up to R8
c: turn a whole new spindle R8 for the little mill
d: any suggestions accepted