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SJorgensen
08-17-2001, 08:52 AM
I've read this thread with interest because I have handled this kind of problem many times. It is aluminum oxide having migrated molecularly into the threads to create an unbelievable grip. It is also so tight that it is nearly impossible to soak any kind of penetrant or lube into it because it isn't very porous. It would be interesting to see some cross-section views of all of these methods to see how far the penetrating lubes were able to get.

I've almost always had to drill out and retap. Sometimes when the drill has exposed some of the threads those other solutions can get in to do some chemical work.

And on the idea to use air-pressure on a stuck piston out of a cylinder head, I just want to chime in against it as too dangerous. The same effect is better done hydraulically with better results and less explosion and less flying pieces of metal bouncing around the shop.

maddog
09-30-2004, 11:54 AM
I'm trying to free a stuck cylinder on a
motorcycle. Its aluminum cylinder held on
with four studs.

One of the (4) studs is seized to the
aluminum. I tried Kroil, is there anything
better than that crap?

HTRN
09-30-2004, 01:19 PM
Have you tried the thermal trick? Try applying heat with a propane torch to the aluminum while the end of the stud is in ice. Mebbe the temp differential will be enough to unstick it.

HTRN

Mike W
09-30-2004, 04:19 PM
Heat and dry ice saved the day for me once.

maddog
09-30-2004, 05:17 PM
The problem is, the studs are recessed
below the cylinder deck.

maddog
09-30-2004, 05:20 PM
I made a puller using a 1/2" steel plate and
a port a power. I heated the f--k out of it
with an oxy-aceteline rig, still no dice!

h2madness.com/machineshop.html#five

WJHartson
09-30-2004, 05:57 PM
One of the old trick to remove aluminum heads on the old flathead engines that had corroded was to pour coke on the studs and let them sit for a while. The coke would eat the corrosion that had formed in the hole and on the stud. With a little tapping and some heat they would release and the head could be removed.

Kroil is the best penetrating oil out there.

Hope this helps,

Joe

docsteve66
09-30-2004, 06:46 PM
Another old trick is to heat the stud, touch it with beeswax and unscrew. Good trick, won't always work-but I know of NO trick that always frees dissimilar metals.

Kroil- High on my list of liquid wrenches.

John Garner
09-30-2004, 07:29 PM
maddog --

I hear rumors that ammonium hydroxide solution (such as Bo-Peep or Parsons brand "ammonia" sold at the grocery stores for cleaning) is the slick trick for freeing corroded aluminum. It's supposed to break down the corrosion byproducts.

John

Jaymo
09-30-2004, 08:55 PM
I'm fond of kerosene as a rust penetrant. I'm fond of kerosene for a lot of uses, come to think of it. If they made women's perfume from it, I'd spend more time with my wife, and less in the shop. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//wink.gif Seriously, I wouldn't let her out of the bedroom except to eat and bathe.
You could always pour Castrol Super Clean on the head. That'll dissolve the corrosion, and the HEAD. Poured some in a Coke can one time, just to see. 15 minutes later, the can was Swiss cheese.

I'll have to try ammonia.

J. Randall
09-30-2004, 11:47 PM
Try Gibbs if you can find it, I think they have a website. A lot of the antique engine guys think it is best for stuck engines. J.R.

jburstein
10-01-2004, 09:22 AM
maddog

whose welding is this? http://h2madness.com/images/man_h1.jpg

It looks just like the welds I do. On a good day.

Justin

maddog
10-01-2004, 11:33 AM
Those are some of my beginner welds from 2
years ago, (they were pressure tested)

I'm much better better now days, the more
you do it the better you get.

darryl
10-01-2004, 02:53 PM
Worst case scenario is you strip the threads out of the aluminum, and there isn't enough meat left to drill out and put in an insert. Before doing damage, and after all else has failed, I would drill the head off( if a bolt), or cut the stud short with a hacksaw, then drill out the bulk of the metal. Then drop in some solution that will eat the steel but not the aluminum. Hopefully the threaded hole has a bottom. It would be good to tape off openings so saw debris doesn't get into things. Use a magnet to help with cleanup, wash up and neutralize whatever the solution is that eats the steel.

Mark Jones
10-01-2004, 03:06 PM
Justin
Thats the sort of weld you get if you weld galvanised steel without grinding the galvanising off.
so if he didnt know about galvanising
...thats the result you get .
even an expert welder could not do any better on galvanised work without grinding.
easy mistake to make when your beginning.
all the best....mark

[This message has been edited by Mark Jones (edited 10-01-2004).]

JRouche
10-01-2004, 04:40 PM
The very best penetrating oil I have used is GM 1052627 "General Purpose penetrant and Heat Valve Lubricant". JRouche

Also, just one stud left. Can you rotate the bore or is there a pin? And, how far down the hole is the stud, can you eyeball it? I don't understand when you say the stud is recessed below the deck. How do you grab it with a fastener?

[This message has been edited by JRouche (edited 10-01-2004).]

zl1byz
10-01-2004, 06:55 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Mark Jones:
Justin
Thats the sort of weld you get if you weld galvanised steel without grinding the galvanising off.
so if he didnt know about galvanising
...thats the result you get .
even an expert welder could not do any better on galvanised work without grinding.
easy mistake to make when your beginning.
all the best....mark

[This message has been edited by Mark Jones (edited 10-01-2004).]</font>

Sorry Mark have to disagree about not being able to weld galvanised work. Being a qualified fitter welder myself, what I would say is it's just practice. Of course I'd agree some welding processes that wont weld galv very well. My prefered is still MMA when it comes to galv work. I use Weldwell PH68 rods for galv work and they will run a pretty tidy weld all position on galvanised work. I must admit welding galv does add a little more dificulty, wouldn't have a job for long if you had to grind everything though.
I beleive there are duel sheild mig wires specifically for welding galv now that do a good job too, certinally would be a lot faster than MMA.

Oh well thats my little rant guys, sorry just couldn't let it pass.

Mark Jones
10-01-2004, 07:31 PM
well I'm a bit out of touch.
I didnt know it was possible.
still dont know if I'm right about those things he's welded ...it looks like an attempt to weld gavanised ...but now I'm not sure.
The whole lot may be all alluminium for all I know .
all the best...mark

JRouche
10-01-2004, 07:36 PM
Yep, looks like aluminum. Looks like a flange to pipe weld via TIG. JRouche

zl1byz
10-01-2004, 08:47 PM
Yep I'd agree the welds in the picture look like aluminium. I kind of wondered were the galvanised welding came into it, but it was mentioned so I just hoped in. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif Actually I did wonder what welding had to do with the thread anyway. Thats one of the interesting things on the bb start off on one thing and you never know where it will end. Back to the welds, aluminium can be a bigger pig than galv to weld when it doesn't go right.

I was interested in the coke thing for un freezing studs. Wow may never drink the stuff again. I have some stainless frozen in ali. Wonder if it will work on that?

Mark Jones
10-01-2004, 09:49 PM
I noticed white furry patches above the welds ...that's why I thought it was galvanised.
all the best..mark

JRouche
10-01-2004, 10:22 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Mark Jones:
I noticed white furry patches above the welds ...that's why I thought it was galvanised.
all the best..mark</font>


Al. oxide, it's white. Thats what makes aluminum difficult to weld. But if you are diligent with yer cleanin and scrubbin it's a snap. Aluminum oxidizes immediately. If you scratch aluminum it will produce an extremely thin layer of aluminum oxide over the freshly scratched ares. This property is also what protects aluminum from further aggressive oxidation. JRouche

madman
10-02-2004, 02:34 AM
Just machine the head off the stud and pull the bitch off. Then buy one new stud nut whatever assenbly. Madman

JRouche
10-02-2004, 04:05 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by madman:
Just machine the head off the stud and pull the bitch off. Then buy one new stud nut whatever assenbly. Madman</font>


Hmmm, pull the head off a stud? Never seen a head on a stud. JRouche

Mike W
10-02-2004, 05:44 AM
I once put Locktite on an .45 aluminum trigger with a steel allen screw. I could not move the allen screw. Will not do that again.

JRouche
10-02-2004, 11:52 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Mike W:
I once put Locktite on an .45 aluminum trigger with a steel allen screw. I could not move the allen screw. Will not do that again. </font>

Prolly strayin abit but, heat works great for relieving locktited parts. JRouche

alumtuna
10-02-2004, 11:58 AM
Kerosene if dont work then drill.

gundog
10-02-2004, 06:42 PM
Put the engine in the freezer for a day pull it out and heat the cylinder with a torch. Try anything the guys above have suggested as well.
Mike

billr
10-02-2004, 07:40 PM
lifted from google rec.crafts.metalworking:

&gt;1 part Dexron II, IIe or III ATF, GM Spec. D-20265 or later.
&gt;1 part Kerosene - deodorized, K1
&gt;1 part Aliphatic Mineral Spirits, Fed. Spec. TT-T-2981F, CAS #64741-49-9,
&gt; or substitute "Stoddard Solvent", CAS #8052-41-3, or equivalent,
&gt; (aka "Varsol")
&gt;1 part Acetone, CAS #67-64-1.
&gt;

good luck.

peace.
bill

Mark Jones
10-02-2004, 07:48 PM
I found a new sort of penetrating oil the other day .
Had to get the tow ball off my car fast as the trailer I was using would not go on it.
so had to swap to another type of ball.
The nuts and bolts that held it on were seized solid and very corroded.
I looked around for the wd40.... It was no where to be seen.
I looked on the shelf and there was a bottle of teak oil there.
Swishing it around in the bottle .....I thought this is very thin oil .....may work.
I tried it and it worked amazingly well....
Never had better results from anything that compaired with teak oil.
sounds daft but..
Give it a go ! ...
all the best...mark


[This message has been edited by Mark Jones (edited 10-02-2004).]

speedy
10-02-2004, 08:02 PM
Maddog,steel corroded to ali is a b*tch. I use a aviation industry product called "mouse milk" penetrating oil. Reading from the container it states:
exclusively distributed throughout the world by--- WORLDWIDE FILTER, 1689 ABRAM CR, SAN LEANDRO, CA 94577.---
It is bloody wonderful stuff but I haven`t used it with ali/steel corroded studs yet. Maybe you might try setting up and drilling out the majority or all of the stud, if you pick up a small amount of barrel material in the process it will have little effect overall ( I have had to resort to this previously, it`s time consuming to set up but has worked for me) wishing you success, Ken

[This message has been edited by speedy (edited 10-02-2004).]

Mcostello
10-03-2004, 12:08 AM
Ya know- I've always wondered why when there is a piston stuck in a bore that someone does not put couple a ounces of their favorite penetrating oil or such in bore and jury rig a head with gasket, and add some air pressure carefully. Should work good especially if rod could still be moved on crank, don't want to make any projectiles here.

maddog
10-03-2004, 12:48 AM
It's a two stroke cylinder, so filling it
with air is not an option..

w.r.t those welds; the flange is cast and
the tubing is extruded. It's the cast that
brings all the garbage into the weld...