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Orrin
05-25-2019, 10:09 AM
A couple of days ago I received this interesting message pertaining to the vandalism. It adds poignancy to the story:

"Long interview on Canadian radio last night with the 70-year old president of the model railroad club’s whose display was destroyed by thugs. He was choking back tears the entire time. Over $150,000 from people around the world has been donated so far, plus rolling stock, track, buildings. But, most fellows are too old to start over, most are in their 70-80s and their spirits have been broken. Some had worked nearly 30 years on their displays and, even if they had years left, the enthusiasm, excitement, creativity, and imagination are gone. The president has worked over ten years on the display in his home and he has barely gotten a good start. Each display was a replica of a little world, a community. Down to the tiniest detail. He had no explanation for why anyone would do such a thing. He declined to comment on what should be done to the hoodlums, would leave it up to the courts."

wdtom44
05-25-2019, 10:21 AM
If they caught the low life that did the damage they should be required to work to pay for the damage to be repaired by outside contractors to put it back into before the attack condition.

6270 Productions
05-25-2019, 10:24 AM
"A footnote to model exhibit vandalism"

I read the first thread - and looked at the photos.

I was really hoping that this thread would mention they were hanging by their toes from a tree somewhere and folks were invited to whack them with a stick until they got tired.

Dan Dubeau
05-25-2019, 10:30 AM
Such an unfortunate and senseless act. Some things just can't be replaced by money and I feel really bad for all those involved and the losses they've incurred. I'm not sure there would be a punishment that would fit the crime and provide relief or retribution for those who've lost all they've worked for.

A.K. Boomer
05-25-2019, 12:11 PM
Some kids just don't even think things through enough to begin with when doing something like this --- I would think that if just for an instant they did they would not do it in the first place,,,

it might actually help society out to start running anti-vandalism adds with the message once done it cannot be undone and changes everything,,,

I think some of the DUI commercials get that point across and have helped to reduce drinking and driving substantially,

like the neon bar signs that flash on and off "Kiss $15,000 dollars goodbye" or "move back in with Mom" that'll shake anyone up lol

RB211
05-25-2019, 12:41 PM
Simply need to bring back public hangings

reggie_obe
05-25-2019, 12:51 PM
Some kids just don't even think things through enough to begin with when doing something like this --- I would think that if just for an instant they did they would not do it in the first place,,,

it might actually help society out to start running anti-vandalism adds with the message: once done it cannot be undone and changes everything,,,


They did it knowing there would be little consequence.
Maybe the punishment should be something that once done, can't be undone? Forced sterilization, these scumbags shouldn't be allowed to breed.

A.K. Boomer
05-25-2019, 12:55 PM
Forced sterilization, these scumbags shouldn't be allowed to breed.

im for doing that to the entire human race, like i said before as much as a bummer as it is that some guys lost their play scale model railroad I think losing the entire planet is way worse of an offense and seems to be something were all quite content in allowing to happen...

Mcgyver
05-25-2019, 12:57 PM
Some kids just don't even think things through enough to begin with when doing something like this.l

I don't know I buy this whole 'don't think things through' notion. They do get cause and effect and think things through. For example they don't step in front of speeding buses or hit themselves in the head with a hammer. Ergo its that consequence is discounted to the inconsequential, either by intensity or timing, to the point of not being effective

A.K. Boomer
05-25-2019, 01:11 PM
It sucks that this is the type of world we live in but as i stated before sooner or later you have to ask why, and then there's also stating the obvious about the wisdom of putting something like this out there in "harms way"

kids will be kids and school situations if not monitored can spin on a dime in short order, even out of class anymore about the only guarantee you have around halloween time for not getting your pumpkin smashed on your front porch is to not put a pumpkin out there in the first place - still no guarantee cuz they could carry one over from the neighbors,,,

None of it makes it "your fault" but do recognize there's things we can do to drastically decrease the odds from it ever happening in the first place - good idea to lock your cars up at night too - that's why they have them. does it suck we have to? yes - but that does not mean you stop doing it - lock your house too if you value your life it can help...

Illinoyance
05-25-2019, 03:21 PM
They did it knowing there would be little consequence.
Maybe the punishment should be something that once done, can't be undone? Forced sterilization, these scumbags shouldn't be allowed to breed.
I would cut off a little more.

A.K. Boomer
05-25-2019, 03:43 PM
Why would anyone in the US be so surprised about a random act of vandalism nowadays when kid's can't even feel safe in their class rooms due to other kids showing up with assault rifles intent on blowing everyone away...

again yeah it sucks but no comparison to other kids having to intervene and actually give up their lives to save their classmates from another classmate,,, it really barely even registers --- so some guys lost their toys,,, yeah sucks but some kids with their entire future ahead of them are losing their life... and those parents having to lose their child...

Where's all this talk of castration with the school shootings? all for it by the way... with a dull rusty knife found in the bottom of a sewer plant...

RB211
05-25-2019, 04:09 PM
im for doing that to the entire human race, like i said before as much as a bummer as it is that some guys lost their play scale model railroad I think losing the entire planet is way worse of an offense and seems to be something were all quite content in allowing to happen...You remind me of the eco terrorists in Tom Clancey's "Rainbow Six".

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RB211
05-25-2019, 04:12 PM
Why would anyone in the US be so surprised about a random act of vandalism nowadays when kid's can't even feel safe in their class rooms due to other kids showing up with assault rifles intent on blowing everyone away...

again yeah it sucks but no comparison to other kids having to intervene and actually give up their lives to save their classmates from another classmate,,, it really barely even registers --- so some guys lost their toys,,, yeah sucks but some kids with their entire future ahead of them are losing their life... and those parents having to lose their child...

Where's all this talk of castration with the school shootings? all for it by the way... with a dull rusty knife found in the bottom of a sewer plant...All the school shooters are either dead or in prison, and in the USA, you have a better chance of winning the powerball than being a victim of a school mass shooting. You are starting to reason with emotion rather than logic.
I do miss 3phase, as it appears I am becoming the forum asshole.

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Corbettprime
05-25-2019, 04:32 PM
The problem iis not with the kids, but their parents, who felt that little Floiver could do no wrong, that everyone was picking on their "perfect" little offspring and immediately lawyered up to protect them. Perhaps holding their sperm and ovum doners (I really cannot call them parents) responsible might be a start to solving this problem, along with deep probing the minds of all involved. I'm sure the lawyers would say that this violates all of their rights, and is cruel and unusual punishment.

A.K. Boomer
05-25-2019, 04:37 PM
you have a better chance of winning the powerball than being a victim of a school mass shooting. your so far out there I don't even know where to start,,, if the school has 3,000 kids and just one dies yet all the others are hearing "pops" there's a whole hell of allot more than just one victim
You are starting to reason with emotion rather than logic.

really? re-read what I just wrote and what you did -- then get back to me on who's being emotional and who has their reality act together with logic...

I do miss 3phase, as it appears I am becoming the forum asshole.




ok - if you insist

RB211
05-25-2019, 04:54 PM
your so far out there I don't even know where to start,,, if the school has 3,000 kids and just one dies yet all the others are hearing "pops" there's a whole hell of allot more than just one victim really? re-read what I just wrote and what you did -- then get back to me on who's being emotional and who has their reality act together with logic...

ok - if you insist

How many school children attend school every day? Multiplied by how many school days in a year. Now take all the school children that have died or been wounded, heck, include the ones emotionally impacted as well from within the specific school in one year, and divide by the total number from above... It is such an insignificant number that it shouldn't even be on your mind.

RB211
05-25-2019, 04:57 PM
In fall 2018, about 56.6 million students*will*attend*elementary and secondary*schools, including 50.7 million*students*in public*schools*and 5.9 million in private*schools. Of the public*school students, 35.6 million will be in prekindergarten through grade 8 and 15.1 million will be in grades 9 through 12.

Ok, so about 100 million per day...
Do you want me to keep going with this AK? Because on my end, for my argument, the math is already soundly defeating your position... But if you insist...

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johansen
05-25-2019, 05:17 PM
School shootings are just one component of a society that is increasingly.. losing it.
You can see this on the internet forums, there is very little de-escalation capacity or desire left.

Statistically school shootings are negligible, you're more likely to lose your children driving them to school every day from a car accident, and your bad parenting is more likely to result in their death due to alcohol as soon as they start driving.

guns are just one component as well, if i wanted to kill a bunch of people i wouldn't use them. there are far easier, cleaner methods.

I'm thinking some of the people who would have shot up a school but didn't, probably left the country and joined isis.. over the last dozen years. these same people would have attempted to start cults a generation ago, or joined other existing organizations with similar destructive goals, but because of statistically better discipline and a more closer relationship with nature, they would have been less likely to take a human life without putting more thought into the matter.

We have people today who don't know that meat comes from a cow, arguing that taking the guns will stop shootings. many of these people were likely on antipsycotics to help them manage their childhood emotions.. rather than learning how to deal with them, yes there will be more school shootings, lots of reasons why. but confiscating all the knives won't stop it. --and the fact that the uk has gotten to that point.. words fail me here.

A.K. Boomer
05-25-2019, 05:21 PM
In fall 2018, about 56.6 million students*will*attend*elementary and secondary*schools, including 50.7 million*students*in public*schools*and 5.9 million in private*schools. Of the public*school students, 35.6 million will be in prekindergarten through grade 8 and 15.1 million will be in grades 9 through 12.

Ok, so about 100 million per day...
Do you want me to keep going with this AK? Because on my end, for my argument, the math is already soundly defeating your position... But if you insist...

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yeah keep going - break it down into seconds will help you allot too - like what's their odds the next second something like that could ever happen to them alone --- next to zilch --- yet still somehow people seem to get excited about playing the lotto,,, kinda the same way kids have anxiety nowadays just showing up for class,,, face it - none of us know quite what this is like unless were very young,,, it's going epidemic... now that's sad --- I mean compared to some guys losing a train set --- hey what's the odds for that? either never makes the news almost daily like the shootings do or people just plain could give a crap in comparison --- go figure ehh?

old mart
05-25-2019, 05:35 PM
What happened to the original thread on the subject? I seem to have missed out on something, and what has happened to 3ph?

Dan Dubeau
05-25-2019, 05:55 PM
What happened to the original thread on the subject? I seem to have missed out on something, and what has happened to 3ph?

I have no idea about either, but maybe he left and took the thread with him? :)

RB211
05-25-2019, 06:01 PM
yeah keep going - break it down into seconds will help you allot too - like what's their odds the next second something like that could ever happen to them alone --- next to zilch --- yet still somehow people seem to get excited about playing the lotto,,, kinda the same way kids have anxiety nowadays just showing up for class,,, face it - none of us know quite what this is like unless were very young,,, it's going epidemic... now that's sad --- I mean compared to some guys losing a train set --- hey what's the odds for that? either never makes the news almost daily like the shootings do or people just plain could give a crap in comparison --- go figure ehh?Ok, 100,000,000 school kids a day go to school for 180 days a year....
That's 18 billion chances for a victim for a gun shooting in a school in just one year.
Bloodiest year was 2018 with 103 kids killed. So 103 / 18,000,000,000
5.72222222E−9
.000000000572

So uhm yeh... If you go to school and have anxiety from getting shot, your an idiot.
If you live outside the USA and think we have a problem with school shootings, you're an idiot. Maybe you should turn off the television so your critical thinking skills have a chance to recover...


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A.K. Boomer
05-25-2019, 06:18 PM
Still don't think that's the way it works --- hey weren't you the guy all concerned and commenting on the 737's ? why all the bother ? or is it maybe somehow hitting home for you ? lol

you know how many of those things were up in the air and the odds of something actually going wrong? what's the worry right?

Mcgyver
05-25-2019, 06:19 PM
Why would anyone in the US be so surprised about a random act of vandalism nowadays when kid's can't even feel safe in their class rooms due to other kids showing up with assault rifles intent on blowing everyone away...
.

I don't think its surprise. I can only speak for one, but the school shootings are a rare event that like winning a lottery doesn't really confront most people. Vandalism otoh is both common place and is an affront to society. This event because its so mean and hurt old men pursing a gentle hobby seems particularly insidious, but really its just an icon for outrage over something a great many people have been victims of.

Brett Hurt
05-25-2019, 06:22 PM
This works for me Caning in Singapore

RB211
05-25-2019, 07:59 PM
Still don't think that's the way it works --- hey weren't you the guy all concerned and commenting on the 737's ? why all the bother ? or is it maybe somehow hitting home for you ? lol

you know how many of those things were up in the air and the odds of something actually going wrong? what's the worry right?

First of all, it was a discussion on stupid engineering decisions that ignored past Boeing best practices, and second of all I don't worry about much when I am at work. The only real concern is a LIPO battery fire over the ocean.

tomato coupe
05-25-2019, 08:44 PM
... in the USA, you have a better chance of winning the powerball than being a victim of a school mass shooting.

Going back to 2009:

113 Number of PowerBall winners
487 Number of people shot or killed in school shootings (not including shooters)

There was not one year where there were more PowerBall winners than school shooting victims.

Mcgyver
05-25-2019, 08:55 PM
Going back to 2009:

113 Number of PowerBall winners
487 Number of people shot or killed in school shootings (not including shooters)

There was not one year where there were more PowerBall winners than school shooting victims.

While a count that's a disappointing reflection on the US it doesn't tell you much about the probability. i'd speculate a school shooting is still a much lower probability than winning the lottery.

RB211
05-25-2019, 08:56 PM
Going back to 2009:

113 Number of PowerBall winners
487 Number of people shot or killed in school shootings (not including shooters)

There was not one year where there were more PowerBall winners than school shooting victims.

There were exactly 2 people shot and killed in school shootings in 2009, one was the perp.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States#2000 s

tomato coupe
05-25-2019, 09:08 PM
There were exactly 2 people shot and killed in school shootings in 2009, one was the perp.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States#2000 s

That's correct. One innocent person killed (i.e. not the shooter) and 12 injured in school shootings in 2009.

lugnut
05-25-2019, 09:52 PM
I do miss 3phase, as it appears I am becoming the forum asshole.

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After all this gum flapping you finally said something that makes sense.

RB211
05-25-2019, 09:54 PM
After all this gum flapping you finally said something that makes sense.

I'm sorry, what have you contributed to the discussion? Maybe you and I both can share the asshole title.

Mcostello
05-25-2019, 10:04 PM
I think bringing back Stocks would be the perfect answer. Lock Them up in a public place over several nights with the lights turned off. Let the purps have fun with some of their own, keep them busy. It would be a strong deterrent to being next.

lugnut
05-25-2019, 10:05 PM
? Maybe you and I both can share the asshole title.
No, you have earned it, I wouldn't want to take it away from you. Besides, I'm not so sure that you and 3pl are not the same person.

RB211
05-25-2019, 10:15 PM
No, you have earned it, I wouldn't want to take it away from you. Besides, I'm not so sure that you and 3pl are not the same person.

So your distaste towards me is based upon a false premise? Let me go get the popcorn...

gambler
05-25-2019, 11:28 PM
you guys need to chill out.

J Tiers
05-26-2019, 12:09 AM
Biggest problem is the punishment does not fit the crime.

Kill someone.... you should have to help support their family, wage garnishment, like alimony. Maybe prison labor, but......

Bust up something.... you should have to work to pay for fixing it

Bust up something that cannot be replaced..... you should have to work rebuilding other things.

The punishments we impose often seem impractical and stupid. I suppose for psychopathic mass murderers, there is no sensible punishment other than getting rid of them entirely, but in other cases.......

thaiguzzi
05-26-2019, 05:41 AM
Ok, 100,000,000 school kids a day go to school for 180 days a year....
That's 18 billion chances for a victim for a gun shooting in a school in just one year.
Bloodiest year was 2018 with 103 kids killed. So 103 / 18,000,000,000
5.72222222E−9
.000000000572

So uhm yeh... If you go to school and have anxiety from getting shot, your an idiot.
If you live outside the USA and think we have a problem with school shootings, you're an idiot. Maybe you should turn off the television so your critical thinking skills have a chance to recover...


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Your last paragraph.
Jeez, i must be an idiot, along with most of the rest of the Western World.
If you don't think the USA has a problem with guns and schools, and you think it's all quite normal, "nothing to see hear folks, move along", well not a lot of hope for you guys.
Guns and schools should not even be in the same sentence in a civilized society.

rotorhead
05-26-2019, 05:53 AM
My sentiments TG, the trouble with the UK our laws are way too soft and lenient, at least across the pond they still have capital punishment in some states for heinous crimes, here we send the sods on holiday, give them new names etc.

I'm not saying these vandals should be hung, but some form of meaningful punishment should be dealt out, they have just about destroyed these people whom try to enjoy a hobby, which brings enjoyment to many others.

redgrouse
05-26-2019, 06:20 AM
The very same thing has happened here in the UK earlier this month -- mindless vandals !!! What possess kids to do such things is beyond comprehension.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-48326572

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-48326572

RB211
05-26-2019, 09:07 AM
Your last paragraph.
Jeez, i must be an idiot, along with most of the rest of the Western World.
If you don't think the USA has a problem with guns and schools, and you think it's all quite normal, "nothing to see hear folks, move along", well not a lot of hope for you guys.
Guns and schools should not even be in the same sentence in a civilized society.My dad used to bring his shotgun to school to go hunting after class. Nothing bad or wrong with guns, they are a tool like any other. The problem is modern culture.

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J Tiers
05-26-2019, 09:12 AM
.....'...
Guns and schools should not even be in the same sentence in a civilized society.

What would make anyone consider those folks civilized? They do what they do for shock value,.

As for the association, no issue.... Teach folks in school to shoot, clean and maintain guns like every other tool, and they will not be such a "special" thing. It's the forbidden and "secret" that has a draw for some folks. The "ordinary" has much less attraction.

There are too many people who seem to truly believe that an unloaded pistol on the table will spontaneously jump up and shoot you. There is such an assignment of "power" and "specialness" to a gun that messed up folks pick up on that and just have to have that "power".

Some of the school shooters are pretty messed up mentally, and should not be able to have a gun anyway.

A.K. Boomer
05-26-2019, 10:43 AM
My apologies in making the comparison in how can anyone be surprised with the vandalism if we have mass shootings in the schools going on, although both being an extreme "disconnect" I did not mean to totally derail the thread...

I guess the problem could be "modern culture" if that includes mental illness,,,

I do not believe going "back in time" with old belief/values will cure anything and in fact is ignoring the more modern problem at hand - as with the shootings keep in mind even the average firearm has gone through radical change from mostly single action to semi-automatic and way more powerful...

To consider them just the same old "tool" is overlooking some major factors - nothing even comes close to how impersonal this approach is, not to mention effective - probably why we don't have "mass knife stabbings, kids in school will always get bullied - it's just a part of growing up, we used to have whole families including dads that kept better tabs on their boys, taught them how to box or took them out to karate lessons, most of your biggest fear back in the day was getting a bloody nose...

in that respect im in agreement with the "modern culture" statement, but that for sure is not where it ends, just part of the long list of catalysts that is creating the situation of what we are seeing today and yes that includes kids destroying other peoples priceless property...

OaklandGB
05-26-2019, 11:11 AM
I'm feeling sorry for George...he must be having one heck of a migraine. :(

Black Forest
05-26-2019, 12:35 PM
I'm feeling sorry for George...he must be having one heck of a migraine. :(

You don't need to feel sorry for George. He is a big boy and he has a mouse and knows how to use it!:cool:

old mart
05-26-2019, 12:36 PM
I can safely say that no teacher in the UK is going to be trained in the use of firearms for defensive purposes. That only happens in third world countries.

gambler
05-26-2019, 12:42 PM
I can safely say that no teacher in the UK is going to be trained in the use of firearms for defensive purposes. That only happens in third world countries.

not being prepared for unforseen and un imaginable things seems to happen over and over in the uk.:rolleyes:

Tungsten dipper
05-26-2019, 12:50 PM
I didn't know you could say a$$hole on this forum?

AD5MB
05-26-2019, 01:25 PM
He declined to comment on what should be done to the hoodlums,

they should be scarlet lettered. they should have their nose rubbed in what they did every day

and everything they build should be subjected to random acts of vandalism

A.K. Boomer
05-26-2019, 01:33 PM
[QUOTE=AD5MB;1239976

and everything they build should be subjected to random acts of vandalism[/QUOTE]

My guess is the reason why stuff like this happens in the first place is these poor slobs have never took the time to build anything worth a pinch of $hit,,, so there's nothing to relate too, nothing "clicks" in their head because they simply do not know what it's like to put any kind of effort into anything,,, sounds to me like their already doing time in hell, thank your lucky stars fella's...

OaklandGB
05-26-2019, 01:47 PM
The value of anything is created by the work/time/sweat,.. in a word the sacrifice, put into creating it.
If whatever is needed is given, there is no value to the holder.

Lottery winners come to mind as an example. So many are bankrupt in a short time. Had that fortune been earned, my bet is it would be safely invested and well guarded.

Am I wrong?

RB211
05-26-2019, 02:49 PM
The value of anything is created by the work/time/sweat,.. in a word the sacrifice, put into creating it.
If whatever is needed is given, there is no value to the holder.

Lottery winners come to mind as an example. So many are bankrupt in a short time. Had that fortune been earned, my bet is it would be safely invested and well guarded.

Am I wrong?I don't know, having lived most of my working life at poverty wages, my wife and I both found ways to spend a 6 figure income the past two years like a drunk sailor. Guess there was some surpressed needs that had to be fulfilled. We are now behaving ourselves, living like we used to so we can save and invest. Just glad it was only two years of being bad. It took 10+ years of blood, sweat, tears in aviation to get to a point that I made more than 36k a year. So in a way, I feel that I worked hard for it, but still requires discipline.
It is very easy for me to spend money to the point that no matter how much I make, it won't be enough.
Requires a mindset.

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PStechPaul
05-26-2019, 03:18 PM
There are certainly many things wrong in the "civilized" world, but a major contributor is the ancient maxim that "money (and other material possessions) is the root of all evil". In the case of this vandalism incident, although I don't really blame the victims, there is the fact that they have spent so much of their time and money on models which serve no useful purpose, and in many cases the hobby becomes an obsession and source of isolation from the world in general.

Like it or not, we live in a globally connected world, and it takes a great deal of (perhaps misdirected) effort to exist in an isolated sphere of existence with other like-minded individuals, and the appreciation for such efforts are confined to that environment. As greater numbers of people struggle to attain unrealistic levels of monetary and material success, those who are unable to "compete" become frustrated and angry, and often turn to drugs and violence and crime, which often threaten the peace of those who are more comfortable. One's sense of comfort does not necessarily relate directly to monetary wealth, but that has become the accepted measure of success.

As for punishment, it can be effective if it is almost immediate and strong enough to be a deterrent, but there are some who are "wired" to resist all forms of punishment and instead of attempting to change criminal behavior, build up anger and resentment and escalate their levels of violence and "rage against the machine". As with "Cool Hand Luke", some people you can never change. This might be rooted in genetics as well as upbringing and environment, and countering their effects requires extreme time-consuming and expensive treatment with counseling, medication, and forced changes of environment, which still may have a dismal success rate.

It does seem that "success" often leads to eventual failure, as evidenced by the number of rock stars, pro athletes, movie stars, lottery winners, and business people, rise quickly and then go crazy and squander their wealth (and health) on drugs, fast living, luxury cars, yachts, and lavish houses, and go bankrupt. Many such individuals are probably sociopaths, and have achieved success by embracing violence and ruthlessness, especially for football players and rap artists where physical power and aggressiveness and glorification of criminal behavior is seen as an asset.

RB211
05-26-2019, 03:51 PM
There are certainly many things wrong in the "civilized" world, but a major contributor is the ancient maxim that "money (and other material possessions) is the root of all evil". In the case of this vandalism incident, although I don't really blame the victims, there is the fact that they have spent so much of their time and money on models which serve no useful purpose, and in many cases the hobby becomes an obsession and source of isolation from the world in general.

Like it or not, we live in a globally connected world, and it takes a great deal of (perhaps misdirected) effort to exist in an isolated sphere of existence with other like-minded individuals, and the appreciation for such efforts are confined to that environment. As greater numbers of people struggle to attain unrealistic levels of monetary and material success, those who are unable to "compete" become frustrated and angry, and often turn to drugs and violence and crime, which often threaten the peace of those who are more comfortable. One's sense of comfort does not necessarily relate directly to monetary wealth, but that has become the accepted measure of success.

As for punishment, it can be effective if it is almost immediate and strong enough to be a deterrent, but there are some who are "wired" to resist all forms of punishment and instead of attempting to change criminal behavior, build up anger and resentment and escalate their levels of violence and "rage against the machine". As with "Cool Hand Luke", some people you can never change. This might be rooted in genetics as well as upbringing and environment, and countering their effects requires extreme time-consuming and expensive treatment with counseling, medication, and forced changes of environment, which still may have a dismal success rate.

It does seem that "success" often leads to eventual failure, as evidenced by the number of rock stars, pro athletes, movie stars, lottery winners, and business people, rise quickly and then go crazy and squander their wealth (and health) on drugs, fast living, luxury cars, yachts, and lavish houses, and go bankrupt. Many such individuals are probably sociopaths, and have achieved success by embracing violence and ruthlessness, especially for football players and rap artists where physical power and aggressiveness and glorification of criminal behavior is seen as an asset.I read your post twice to fully understand what you are saying. In your first two paragraphs you are being pretty judgemental on the value of their interests(model trains), and suggesting that money leads to all problems in modern society. You also speak to the point that people isolating themselves with liked minded people is a bad thing?

My own life experience has to disagree on these points. What hobbies I choose that give me legitimate salvation and happiness should be cherished and not for others to say that it is wrong. My life, my choice, no one else's opinion matters.

Money, money does indeed buy happiness and solves most issues. If there's a problem, money will fix it. I think a much truer statement is that governments forcing people to make more money to exist in a general location(taxes, regulations, licensing, insurance requirements, sky rocketing housing costs, etc), is what forces people to go down dark roads.
People being jealous of others with money often didn't make proper life choices early on, maybe dimwitted, maybe lazy, or in 95% of cases, simply not motivated to the same level to do what was required to make more money.

Punishment, some people are defective in the head and should have their life come to an end. Executions should be carried out much more often, and liberally used on people who choose to not be contributing members of society. It's really a simple concept.

Isolationism with liked minded people...
I am a conservative pro gun, pro small government person that lived in San Francisco with his fiance with a bunch of gay people renting the other rooms of the flat so we could afford to survive.

It served nothing good for me to be in that environment besides being with my fiance. It was actually destructive and counter to what would be considered making some one into a better person. At first opportunity, we left that environment and lived where much more like minded people exist. It has been a huge improvement and we are all the much happier for it.
It's a good thing, and forcing people to not do it will only generate another Hitler.

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Paul Alciatore
05-26-2019, 06:03 PM
Very few children in grammar school and tragically few in high school could perform that calculation. Or be even vaguely aware of it's significance even if it were put in front of them. College? Well, one can have his hopes and dreams.

The real tragedy is most of their parents are equally ignorant. Most of the people who report the news are totally hopeless in this respect or, more likely, willfully ignorant.

Many of these same people, parents and children alike, will jump into the family vehicle and traverse our city traffic each day without the least thought or hesitation. This in spite of the fact that the chances of being injured or killed in a traffic accident are far, far greater. One estimate puts traffic accident yearly death rate at about 1 in 10,000 or 0.0001. That is about 20,000 times greater than your figure for being shot in school. We should ban automobiles before we ban guns. At the very least we should never, ever allow children to be in motor vehicles or within a substantial distance of any street, road, or highway. Yet we obsess over school shootings but LOVE our vehicles and few would even dream of giving them up.

Until we learn to set proper priorities .....




Ok, 100,000,000 school kids a day go to school for 180 days a year....
That's 18 billion chances for a victim for a gun shooting in a school in just one year.
Bloodiest year was 2018 with 103 kids killed. So 103 / 18,000,000,000
5.72222222E−9
.000000000572

So uhm yeh... If you go to school and have anxiety from getting shot, your an idiot.
If you live outside the USA and think we have a problem with school shootings, you're an idiot. Maybe you should turn off the television so your critical thinking skills have a chance to recover...


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A.K. Boomer
05-26-2019, 07:46 PM
Trouble with that is there seems to be a steady rise with troubled kids acting out with guns --- this cannot be disputed and the one place that parents trust should be totally void of this worry is actually gaining ground as the go to place to settle scores --- yes there's real alarm with that,,,

imagine it was drunk bus drivers taking out kids in crashes to the tune of just half of what the shootings are, cut things back to "just once a week" ---- the term "highly unlikely" to affect your child would not even matter, the odds game is null and void, people would be downright pissed and demand a better "system" and rightfully so...

PStechPaul
05-26-2019, 09:07 PM
I disagree with that math. If there are 103 victims of gun violence in schools, per year, for 100,000,000 school kids, who attend school 12 years, the chances of one of them being a victim during their time at school would be 103 * 12 / 100,000,000, or 0.00001236. And an even higher chance that one of them is related to or good friends with the victim. That said, I am in favor of allowing armed guards, or even teachers, as long as they are properly trained and follow good firearms safety practices.

J Tiers
05-26-2019, 11:31 PM
The old, tired, comparisons to driving are less valid than they seem.

Driving, despite what some try to tell you, is NOT entering some sort of pachinko machine where the outcome is random. Yes, **** happens, but there are many people who go through their entire lives as drivers without an accident, let alone one that is their fault. And others who cause one after another, usually/often due to alcohol or drug use.

When driving, your safety is your own responsibility, and to a very large extent you have control over it, by your behavior and your ability to "see" and avoid bad situations before they go bad.

When, for instance, flying, you are entering a lottery. It IS a "pachinko", your actions have zero influence, and thousands of other people, pilots, mechanics, regulators, inspectors, assembly workers, machinists, etc are totally in control of your fate. The vast majority "win" that lottery, and arrive safely, yes. But the situation is not comparable to driving, aside from the fact of traveling.

RB211
05-27-2019, 12:17 AM
I disagree with that math. If there are 103 victims of gun violence in schools, per year, for 100,000,000 school kids, who attend school 12 years, the chances of one of them being a victim during their time at school would be 103 * 12 / 100,000,000, or 0.00001236. And an even higher chance that one of them is related to or good friends with the victim. That said, I am in favor of allowing armed guards, or even teachers, as long as they are properly trained and follow good firearms safety practices.103 was worst case, the average the past 20 years was far lower since Columbine. Either way you calculate it, it is pretty damning how insignificant the odds are of being in a school shooting, to the point that it shouldn't even be an issue.

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Sparky_NY
05-27-2019, 05:13 AM
The old, tired, comparisons to driving are less valid than they seem.

Driving, despite what some try to tell you, is NOT entering some sort of pachinko machine where the outcome is random. Yes, **** happens, but there are many people who go through their entire lives as drivers without an accident, let alone one that is their fault. And others who cause one after another, usually/often due to alcohol or drug use.

When driving, your safety is your own responsibility, and to a very large extent you have control over it, by your behavior and your ability to "see" and avoid bad situations before they go bad.

When, for instance, flying, you are entering a lottery. It IS a "pachinko", your actions have zero influence, and thousands of other people, pilots, mechanics, regulators, inspectors, assembly workers, machinists, etc are totally in control of your fate. The vast majority "win" that lottery, and arrive safely, yes. But the situation is not comparable to driving, aside from the fact of traveling.

That is because you are comparing one situation as the operator and the other as a passenger. Compare a auto passenger to a flying passenger is a more fair comparison. The old comparing apples to apples theory.

Bob La Londe
05-27-2019, 11:05 AM
There are a lot of factors in something like this.

Impulse control is less in youths. Certain decision making processes and mental faculties are not fully developed until their very late teens or early 20s. This is a statistical average by professionals. Not something I am making up. I defer to my wife on this subject as she is a practicing pediatrician of nearly 30 years and has a large population of patients with behavior issues and mental health issues that other doctors are unwilling to see. She is also one of the top rated pediatricians (by state evaluation and stats) in the region. Having no education in that other than a couple psych classes in college I have to defer to her expertise.

There has always been a certain type that destroys what somebody else has to make themselves feel equal. I think its the same type who insults and tears down people who accomplish something rather be happy for them. It seems to become more the norm in the last couple decades. Less quiet tongue wagging behind backs and more public in your face proclamations to thousands if not millions across public voice platforms. "Yeah, so what if that fat pig is successful. Who cares."

The other side to that is the willingness to be offended over anything. People seem to look for a reason to be offended. More so now than ever. Almost like some perverted badge of honor. "Look this person offended me. Shun them. Persecute them. Destroy their lives. They offended me." Heck just look at news headlines on an on-line news feed these days. Celebrities and politicians being offended and slamming somebody else is the norm. Even when the actual response was more civilized the media uses those short shock value words to draw attention to their headline. I suspect many people see no more than the headline.

So while the action referred to was bad. Society is not without fault. When people see this sort of behavior as the norm I am sure impulse control is greatly lessened even from its normal low level of control in youth.

"Well there's a difference between trashing somebody verbally and wrecking their personal property." True, but both can leave lasting damage, and the distinction can be harder to see for somebody with fewer years of experience. No matter what somebody taught you about sticks and stones bruises to the body heal. Bruises to the soul or ego might never heal.

This sort of thing happens on "more civilized" platforms as well. "Look at this cool thing I machined." ~ "Yeah, well I was a tool and die maker and you will never be a 'real' machinist."

I am not without blame, and neither are you. Yes you personally. The person currently staring at this accusation in disbelief.

A friend of mine was telling me last year about a kid he caught stealing from the work shed on his farm. A youngster. 12-13 years old. He was stealing little things, but still it was theft. He talked with the boy's father who was willing to punish him severely, but instead my friend asked to be allowed to meter out a more civilized punishment. Make the boy work for him for a summer. He put him to work doing **** jobs and then later not so much **** jobs. Then he did the unthinkable. He paid him for the work and explained that now he has honest money to go out and buy better things than those he stole. The kid has been working for him ever since when he has work for him to do and he has gone out and found other work from others in the area and in a relatively short time has earned a little bit of a reputation as a hard worker and great helper. Not every kid can be saved and not every man is big enough to do what my friend did, but its something we should all atleast think about.

Mike Amick
05-27-2019, 04:42 PM
I'm thinking some of the people who would have shot up a school but didn't, probably left the country and joined isis.. over the last dozen years. these same people would have attempted to start cults a generation ago, or joined other existing organizations with similar destructive goals

Ok , just for correction, most shooters have a white supremacist back ground ... Not an "isis" background

Magicniner
05-27-2019, 07:08 PM
So while the action referred to was bad. Society is not without fault. When people see this sort of behavior as the norm I am sure impulse control is greatly lessened even from its normal low level of control in youth.


Dig a very, very deep hole......
We have more good people than the world can reasonably support, losing some bad ones wouldn't hurt, it might, over time, teach others restraint!

RB211
05-27-2019, 08:40 PM
Ok , just for correction, most shooters have a white supremacist back ground ... Not an "isis" backgroundSome of them have been bullied, outcasted, treated poorly by their classmates. Problem with youngsters is that while their brains are developing, the treatment they can receive from their peers good or bad, will shape them for the rest of their lives.

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Mike Amick
05-27-2019, 11:05 PM
Some of them have been bullied, outcasted, treated poorly by their classmates. Problem with youngsters is that while their brains are developing, the treatment they can receive from their peers good or bad, will shape them for the rest of their lives.


Yea .. that too.