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plunger
06-13-2019, 01:10 PM
I viewed an auction today that will be held on Saturday. They had a southbend lathe that looked like it had the original manual. It doesnt look beat up but it didnt have what looked like the back gear setup unless it was in a seperate box. The motor was not attached but that was in a seperate box.

What are these lathes like . It seemed to have alot of gears and had a thread cutting dial so I presume it is in order. If it doesnt have the back gear is this a deal breaker. ?These are rare in my country so is it similar to a chinese lathe of similar size or is it much better.

It did have some play on the spindle ,end float. Is this easy to fix.?

Another question .They had an alexander die sinking pantograph 3a. It hardly looks used but was set up to make wooden carvings. This looks like a 3d setup. But the spindle is missing .It is attached to a setup where there are three routers and makes wooden carvings.If the spindle is not in a box I wonder how useful this machine could be. I am thinking of maybe re purposing it as a tool and cutter grinder as it has beautiful tables with slots and perfect dials and dovetail slides.

Also how useful are those little d bit cutters. Can they be used for sharpening hss square bits for single point turning. I will try get a pic of it but it slides on a round column.Are they very limited in use.

dalee100
06-13-2019, 01:44 PM
Hi,

Many find the Southbend to be a very desirable lathe. You need to double check to see there are back gears, Without them, you will be looking for parts, not so easy for you. Get some pictures of it if you can so we can see it.

The pantograph is probably not very useful without a spindle. Again, a photo would help to brainstorm any usefulness.

The D bits are fine for cutting wood and might be good enough to drill aluminum or even steel. But they ain't going to cut HSS for sharpening.

mihit
06-13-2019, 02:00 PM
Buy both. Use lathe to make spindle.

You neglected to mention what size.

MattiJ
06-13-2019, 02:18 PM
I viewed an auction today that will be held on Saturday. They had a southbend lathe that looked like it had the original manual. It doesnt look beat up but it didnt have what looked like the back gear setup unless it was in a seperate box. The motor was not attached but that was in a seperate box.

What are these lathes like . It seemed to have alot of gears and had a thread cutting dial so I presume it is in order. If it doesnt have the back gear is this a deal breaker. ?These are rare in my country so is it similar to a chinese lathe of similar size or is it much better.

It did have some play on the spindle ,end float. Is this easy to fix.?
.
South bend has been making lathes for over 100 years so it depends what model and era you have in mind.

Can be better or worse than similarly sized chinese lathe, depending on model and condition.
Heavy 10 from WW2 era doesn't have hardened bed, have limited spindle bore and lacks horsepower by todays standards. Ballpark similar machine to the better chinese ones if in good condition.
If bed is heavily worn, parts missing and spindle bearings toasted its time-consuming project worth about cast iron scrap value.

plunger
06-13-2019, 05:34 PM
Here is a pic of the lathe.
https://i.imgur.com/sCMpk4al.jpg

plunger
06-13-2019, 05:38 PM
And the tool cutter . Could this be useful or is it very limited to just d bits. Could it do 60 degree hss lathe bits or acme tools for example
https://i.imgur.com/AGmfS87l.jpg

wdtom44
06-13-2019, 05:46 PM
Maybe someone who knows SBs better than me will add. Anyway, on the top left I see the lever that engages and disengages the back gears. That doesn't mean the back gears are there. Is it a flat belt drive, probably, or V belt? I don't see the matching cone pulley that the motor would drive. It would be mounted on an arbor or idler shaft behind the lathe attached to the bench. The motor would drive a maybe 10" pulley on this which would then drive the lathe through the two cone pulleys. It is not a quick change so you would need the pile of gears to get various feeds and threads.

plunger
06-13-2019, 05:50 PM
Maybe someone who knows SBs better than me will add. Anyway, on the top left I see the lever that engages and disengages the back gears. That doesn't mean the back gears are there. Is it a flat belt drive, probably, or V belt? I don't see the matching cone pulley that the motor would drive. It would be mounted on an arbor or idler shaft behind the lathe attached to the bench. The motor would drive a maybe 10" pulley on this which would then drive the lathe through the two cone pulleys. It is not a quick change so you would need the pile of gears to get various feeds and threads.

This is the box of goodies and motor. I dont know what the back gear looks like, not knowing this lathe. There is definite end thrust play in the spindle. Radial play I cant feel anything. Is it simple to preload this to take out the slop. Are these pb bushes or bearings.?
https://i.imgur.com/g4KiGpol.jpg

mihit
06-14-2019, 01:47 AM
Photos are pretty small but I'm gonna say its a Junior 7. Back gear on the cam/tumbler. Counter shaft in the box. Originally these had a V pulley on the motor and flat pulley on the countershaft.

Depending what you want it for...
Change gears are PITA even if you have them. I don't see them.
Play in any direction can be taken up, depending how much you want to spend.

I would fill the oilers and spin it warm, then check the play (plain bearings rely on oil-wedge bearing)

alanganes
06-14-2019, 07:00 AM
And the tool cutter . Could this be useful or is it very limited to just d bits. Could it do 60 degree hss lathe bits or acme tools for example
https://i.imgur.com/AGmfS87l.jpg

I do not have one of these, but from what I gather there is actually a lot that can be done with this style of tool grinder beyond making d-bits. Check out Stefan Gotteswinter's youtube videos about these. Lots of other info around the web on using them. If the price is right it may be a worthwhile addition.

wdtom44
06-14-2019, 09:39 AM
In the box, on the left, I see the idler shaft. A shaft with bearrings, V belt pulley and flat belt cone pulley. The V belt pulley on it is smaller than I would have expected, the lathe will run farily fast with this size pulley. A frame to mount the motor and shaft on is needed. This swings to tighten and loosen the flat belt drive to the lathe. If this frame is missing it could be made. A strut goes from it to the lathe to adjust the tension of the flat belt. Probably by looking around the internet you could find a picture or two of a SB lathe with all this in place. What is in the grey box that looks like it says L A..... on it? Maybe the change gears? If you end up with this lathe it looks like you have a lifetime supply of tool bits in the box in the upper right. The back gears are on a shaft behind the cone pulley on the headstock of the lathe. In the picture of the lathe they would be at the top and between the two headstock bearings, right next to the cardboard box. The handle on the top left engages and disengages them. You also need to disconnect the headstock cone pulley from the spindle, usually a pin on the side of the gear next to the right headstock brearing, for the back gears to function. They give you a lot of more spindle speed reduction. A sort of "low range" of speeds. With the exception of the gears, which MAY be in the grey box, it looks like most of what you need to get this lathe running is there. If the feed and screw cutting chart is still on the lathe it will list the various gears needed to get those feed rates and screw threads. Sometimes two of a certain size gear are needed. Hope this has helped.

J Tiers
06-14-2019, 10:00 AM
Looks like backgear lever is there in the pic, presumably BG is there also.

Auctions with stuff in several parts/boxes....... tricky folks move the accessories box to a different lot, which they want to buy, then offer to sell that accessory box load to you. Not so bad iin small auctions when the individual items are being sold and the auctioneers know the lots, but still, some essential part may be picked out and put elsewhere... same result... an offer to sell it to you for a goodly price.

DR
06-14-2019, 11:44 AM
And the tool cutter . Could this be useful or is it very limited to just d bits. Could it do 60 degree hss lathe bits or acme tools for example
https://i.imgur.com/AGmfS87l.jpg

The tool grinder is a quality copy of a Deckel. Nice machine. It'd be nice if it has an assortment of collets, including square collets. Yes, it will do most any kind of lathe tool grinding provided you have the correct collet to hold the tool.

Galaxie
06-14-2019, 01:08 PM
Here is a pic of the lathe.
https://i.imgur.com/sCMpk4al.jpg
The pic is a bit blurry and the wrong angle, but I'd bet money it is a model 405. The key identifiers are the tailstock casting, short cross slide, and the carriage lock on the right rear wing of the carriage.

Buyer beware! Unless modified, these have an uncommon 1-3/8"-10 spindle thread and 20DP x 5/8" bore change gears.

See specs here:
http://www.lathes.co.uk/southbendmodelfive9inch/

wdtom44
06-14-2019, 01:13 PM
Good points Galaxie, it's good someone who knows more about the specific lathe has commented on it.

Galaxie
06-14-2019, 01:14 PM
I should note, if it has all the change gears and you're comfortable turning and threading your own chuck back plates, there's nothing wrong with these lathes. I have a well-worn model 405 myself.

wern
06-14-2019, 01:46 PM
Eugene, your shop is too full for more tools, ship the grinder up to Joburg. I will take it off your hands to create some space.

Werner

plunger
06-14-2019, 03:21 PM
Eugene, your shop is too full for more tools, ship the grinder up to Joburg. I will take it off your hands to create some space.

Werner

Werner remember I lost out on the free chavelier surface grinder because I took too long to pick it up from my BIL.I have three lathes so this is for my friend. The grinder is in a lot seperate from the pantagragh die sinking machine. The pantagraph looks brand new but has been bastardized to copy those curios you buy from the zimbabwians on the side of the road. You feel sorry for them because you think they carved it over several months and you buy it for a hundred Rand. Meanwhile they are not handmade.
https://i.imgur.com/2Rz3GtXh.jpg

plunger
06-14-2019, 03:36 PM
This is the pantagraph.I wonder what the white sculpture is made of .?You can see the wooden zulu warrior sculptures in the cage.
https://i.imgur.com/c6bhKFHh.jpg

Illinoyance
06-14-2019, 04:16 PM
And the tool cutter . Could this be useful or is it very limited to just d bits. Could it do 60 degree hss lathe bits or acme tools for example
https://i.imgur.com/AGmfS87l.jpg

have a similar grinder. Chinese import. I find it very useful for grinding drills using a 4 facet grind. I also used it to grind the side and end relief on Chinese boring tools.
I

mihit
06-14-2019, 05:05 PM
The tool grinder is a quality copy of a Deckel. Nice machine. It'd be nice if it has an assortment of collets, including square collets. Yes, it will do most any kind of lathe tool grinding provided you have the correct collet to hold the tool.

Looks like a 5c? Pretty common

J Tiers
06-14-2019, 05:12 PM
The pic is a bit blurry and the wrong angle, but I'd bet money it is a model 405. The key identifiers are the tailstock casting, short cross slide, and the carriage lock on the right rear wing of the carriage.

Buyer beware! Unless modified, these have an uncommon 1-3/8"-10 spindle thread and 20DP x 5/8" bore change gears.

See specs here:
http://www.lathes.co.uk/southbendmodelfive9inch/

Not actually..... what the site says lower down is:

"Although looking exactly like the later headstocks, the early version had minor differences that prevented the backgears being interchangeable and a spindle that, on its introduction carried a nose 13/8" in diameter with a 10 t.p.i. thread (later 11/2" diameter 8 t.p.i U.S.F thread). "

And I can confirm that, as I refurbed and sold one that was 1 1/2-8, and was not modified in any way, since I happened to know the history of the particular machine.

plunger
06-14-2019, 05:41 PM
Looks like a 5c? Pretty common

5C collets are scarce in S Africa but nothing like the schaublin/deckel type collet these machines came out with. I think it will be very expensive to replace them here. Is there some kind of er collet adapter that could allow one around this problem. I wonder what this grinder is worth.?

754
06-14-2019, 06:03 PM
Its worth a lot to the right person. To convert it to grinding lathe tools you may be better off with a grinder with slanting tables on each end. Throw 150 or 200 at it , if you get it.. try to make it work... if it doesnt find the right person.

Galaxie
06-14-2019, 08:03 PM
And I can confirm that, as I refurbed and sold one that was 1 1/2-8, and was not modified in any way, since I happened to know the history of the particular machine.
Interesting! Do you happen to recall the first two digits of the serial number? The only 405's I've seen or heard about were in the 56000 to 60000 range and had the old spindle thread.

Rich Carlstedt
06-15-2019, 12:01 AM
So they have both a Pantograph and the grinder ?
The pantograph uses the Alexander grinder to make the D bits , so whoever gets the Pantograph will go after the Grinder.
Personally, I think the grinder is the most valuable machine of the lot.
Deckels go for $1,000 to $2,000 here with collets unless you can find them at a garage sale and the seller knows nothing.
Not sure about the South African market however.
Rich

plunger
06-15-2019, 02:13 AM
So they have both a Pantograph and the grinder ?
The pantograph uses the Alexander grinder to make the D bits , so whoever gets the Pantograph will go after the Grinder.
Personally, I think the grinder is the most valuable machine of the lot.
Deckels go for $1,000 to $2,000 here with collets unless you can find them at a garage sale and the seller knows nothing.
Not sure about the South African market however.
Rich

The pantagraph is sad because it looks to have five hours use on it. I kid you not. It is missing the spindle .It was coupled to a four post router so whatever the pantagraph did the four post router did and was used to carve statues.I have no use for the pantagraph and no space even if given to me. I do see some use of the tables ,maybe a starting point for a homemade tool and cutter grinder. They may just be too big.

plunger
06-15-2019, 05:00 AM
The auction pulled this specific lot so I am quite dissapointed.The spindle was in a seperate box with a sh1tload of cutters and hss blanks and different number templates.

J Tiers
06-15-2019, 08:15 AM
Interesting! Do you happen to recall the first two digits of the serial number? The only 405's I've seen or heard about were in the 56000 to 60000 range and had the old spindle thread.

Not off hand.... I may have a pic that shows it. I'll look around.

plunger
06-15-2019, 10:17 AM
The lathe went for $240.

J Tiers
06-15-2019, 02:44 PM
The lathe went for $240.

That would be "stupid cheap" around here. SB seems to go at a premium.... probably name recognition. In SA, name recognition for SB is likely to be "considerably less".

754
06-18-2019, 12:56 PM
So did you get the lathe, 500 bid here means you can make some money..

plunger
06-18-2019, 01:44 PM
So did you get the lathe, 500 bid here means you can make some money..

Ive got three lathes .:p This was for my friend. He should have bid higher.The chucks and lathes bits on their own were worth far more than that.