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Edwin Dirnbeck
07-06-2019, 11:38 AM
HELP,I am working on an invention for mounting wheels on cars and trailers. Is their any agreed upon actual thru hole size for the wheel studs.As an example,my 16 inch trailer has 1/2 20 studs . My wheels have a .600 .615 thru holes. The wheels locate on a taper on the lug nuts,so the actual thru hole is clearance only.Is it whatever some manufacturer thinks is OK ?.Or ere there standards? Thank you Edwin Dirnbeck

Doozer
07-06-2019, 11:41 AM
Most of the old lay-down tire machines (Coates
and the like) used a tapered pin that came up
and went into one lug hole.

-Doozer

Robg
07-06-2019, 12:02 PM
There are variations. Many GM vehicles have 7/16” studs while others in their product line have 1/2”. There’s also 12mm & 14mm studs on the imports as well. There is clearance for the stud to pass through and the lug nut is tapered to match a taper on the contact area of the rim to center the wheel on the hub. The center hole of the rim usually fits very closely to the hub as a more positive method to make sure the wheel is in fact centered other than by the lug nut only.

CCWKen
07-06-2019, 12:06 PM
And even the center hole varies.

Forgot: Even my 6" and 12" rims have 1/2-20 studs. I don't think wheel size has anything to do with it.

Forestgnome
07-06-2019, 12:23 PM
I don't have access, but I'm guessing this would cover it: https://www.sae.org/standards/content/j694_199808/

Willy
07-06-2019, 12:55 PM
HELP,I am working on an invention for mounting wheels on cars and trailers. Is their any agreed upon actual thru hole size for the wheel studs.As an example,my 16 inch trailer has 1/2 20 studs . My wheels have a .600 .615 thru holes. The wheels locate on a taper on the lug nuts,so the actual thru hole is clearance only.Is it whatever some manufacturer thinks is OK ?.Or ere there standards? Thank you Edwin Dirnbeck

I don't believe that there any set standards that I know of at least
Manufacturers and their engineers realize that these assemblies are often in need of disassembly and need to be reassembled often under less than ideal conditions and often with rudimentary tools so an acceptable clearance window has to be built in to make it user friendly.
Think of having a 1/2" socket or open end wrench that was exactly .5000" and mating that with a fastener exactly the same size, or a thermostat the cuts in and out at exactly 72°,total PIA.

Lots of examples that parallel that line of thinking, I think it's refereed to as fuzzy logic, or at least the term applies in this case.

In the case of stud piloted wheels the accurate location of the studs and the tapered nuts and corresponding wheel seats assures accurate wheel location.

Hub piloted wheel mounting systems rely on an accurate center hole on the wheel and and accurately machined hub on the spindle in order to assure a precise mount. In this case studs and nuts serve only to anchor the wheel to the hub.

Edwin Dirnbeck
07-06-2019, 06:11 PM
Thanks for all that answered . The particular invention that I am working on, will need to fit through the wheel lug bolt hole . It still needs to be as large as is physically possible and yet still pass through the lug bolt hole. So therefore I was looking for some specific wheel lug bolt hole plus or minus tolerance dimensions thank you again


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

dave_r
07-07-2019, 02:11 AM
And some wheels are lug-centered (ie, tapered lug nuts both center the wheel and hold it to the hub) or hug-centered (the hub has a protrusion that wheel closely fits over that centers the wheel, and the lug nuts are flat and just hold the wheel to the hub).

djc
07-07-2019, 04:00 AM
And some wheels are lug-centered (i.e., tapered lug nuts both center the wheel and hold it to the hub)

Are you sure on this? Could you please give an example.

Seems to me the engineering challenges of making this work with acceptable tolerances for any kind of mass production are rather daunting.

Say the wheel has four lug nuts. Any wheel made has to fit any hub made in any of four clock positions such that when the nuts are tightened, they seat simultaneously, axially (so not as to induce bending stresses into the studs), keep the wheel central on the hub, and distribute the wheel load equally between the studs.

As I see it, any taper on the nuts is to help with rotational alignment of the wheel as a whole relative to the studs. It does not contribute to wheel alignment on the hub. Not too many good designs rely on a nut located on a thread (and one where the male threads are undoubtedly rolled, not cut) for alignment.

dave_r
07-07-2019, 04:33 AM
google "lug centric wheels"

Arcane
07-07-2019, 05:03 AM
Are you sure on this? Could you please give an example.

Seems to me the engineering challenges of making this work with acceptable tolerances for any kind of mass production are rather daunting.

Say the wheel has four lug nuts. Any wheel made has to fit any hub made in any of four clock positions such that when the nuts are tightened, they seat simultaneously, axially (so not as to induce bending stresses into the studs), keep the wheel central on the hub, and distribute the wheel load equally between the studs.

As I see it, any taper on the nuts is to help with rotational alignment of the wheel as a whole relative to the studs. It does not contribute to wheel alignment on the hub. Not too many good designs rely on a nut located on a thread (and one where the male threads are undoubtedly rolled, not cut) for alignment.

I've used "lug centric wheels", some on Stock Cars, with no problem but you have to do a little wiggling of the wheel to make sure the taper nut doesn't tighten off center to the hole because of the weight of the wheel pulling it to one side. With "hub center wheels" it's very much easier to get the tapered nut centered in the hole because the amount of force needed for the nut taper to rotate the wheel into alignment is very much less. Some wheels use lugnuts like these (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/31J--81c1iL.jpg) to center the wheel.

Forestgnome
07-07-2019, 08:47 AM
Are you sure on this? Could you please give an example.

Seems to me the engineering challenges of making this work with acceptable tolerances for any kind of mass production are rather daunting.

Say the wheel has four lug nuts. Any wheel made has to fit any hub made in any of four clock positions such that when the nuts are tightened, they seat simultaneously, axially (so not as to induce bending stresses into the studs), keep the wheel central on the hub, and distribute the wheel load equally between the studs.

As I see it, any taper on the nuts is to help with rotational alignment of the wheel as a whole relative to the studs. It does not contribute to wheel alignment on the hub. Not too many good designs rely on a nut located on a thread (and one where the male threads are undoubtedly rolled, not cut) for alignment.

It's true. BMW's are hub centric, older American cars were lug centric. If the lug nuts have a tapered seat, it's usually lug centric.

CCWKen
07-07-2019, 08:50 AM
My Snap-On wheel balancer has a wheel lift built into it. You could just as easily use it to mount large wheels. I don't understand why you would want to use the mount holes to lift a wheel/tire. There are all types of tire OD lift assist tools. Also, not all vehicles use studs--Some use bolts.

lakeside53
07-07-2019, 10:59 AM
It's true. BMW's are hub centric, older American cars were lug centric. If the lug nuts have a tapered seat, it's usually lug centric.

I found that to my joy when my neighbor needed a flat taken off their little-used BMW. Been on for 12 years (never rotated!). The rim was "one" with hubs; took a lot of effort, timbers, 10lb sledge etc. 12 winters of grit, salt and whatever.

J Tiers
07-07-2019, 11:19 AM
I found that to my joy when my neighbor needed a flat taken off their little-used BMW. Been on for 12 years (never rotated!). The rim was "one" with hubs; took a lot of effort, timbers, 10lb sledge etc. 12 winters of grit, salt and whatever.

That's the reason to use "Never-Seez" on lug nuts, being sure to get it on the tapered surface.

Abd, before some kind soul solemnly warns me that using any "lube" on the lug nuts will cause them to back off and cause the wheel to come off...... NO it will not....

Arcane
07-07-2019, 12:02 PM
That's the reason to use "Never-Seez" on lug nuts, being sure to get it on the tapered surface.

Abd, before some kind soul solemnly warns me that using any "lube" on the lug nuts will cause them to back off and cause the wheel to come off...... NO it will not....


Agreed! Just about every tire repair shop will say that using any lube on the lug nuts will cause them to back off". If you ask them why connecting rod bolts and main cap bolts in an engine which are speced to use oil as a lubricant when torquing them don't come loose, they have no answer.

The only thing about using "Never-Seez" on lug nuts is you have to reduce the torque value or you risk over stretching the stud. For those who are interested:

From https://www.bostik-industrial.com/never-seez-best-practices-for-using-anti-seize-and-lubricating-compounds/


The use of Never-Seez Regular Grade requires about 30% less torque while providing the same clamping force on threads. Never-Seez Pure Nickel reduces torque by 15%, and Mariner’s Choice requires 41% less torque. This torque percentage is even lower if Never-Seez is applied to both the threads and bolt cap, which is the preferred method.

Without Never-Seez, the amount of torque is between 50-80%.

kendall
07-07-2019, 12:18 PM
Different types and sizes of lugs:
https://www.discounttire.com/learn/lug-nuts


As far as I know, other than the hub centric style, the only critical concern is where the lug seat meets the wheel. I had two sets of stock rims for my old car that I planned to use on a trailer, picked five and had trailer tires mounted, then went to install them, only three of the rims went over the larger studs. Out of all 8, only 5 would fit

cameron
07-07-2019, 12:40 PM
That's the reason to use "Never-Seez" on lug nuts, being sure to get it on the tapered surface.

Abd, before some kind soul solemnly warns me that using any "lube" on the lug nuts will cause them to back off and cause the wheel to come off...... NO it will not....

I agree, but the nuts were not the main problem on that hub centric wheel. The center hole and hub spigot need anti-seize even more. Pine tar is my go-to for this and all fasteners under the car. Even after ten years of driving in salt slush, you still get that lovely pine tar odor when you remove a nut or bolt, and the engaged threads are pristine.

MrWhoopee
07-07-2019, 02:46 PM
Since this thread has wandered off topic some, it's also important to note that steel wheels have conical lug nut seats (and they're not all the same angle) while alloy wheels have spherical (ball) seats. At least the Honda's I've dealt with do. Probably has something to do with stress risers and cracking the alloy wheels. The alloy wheel lug nuts on our Toyota Matrix have a straight cylindrical snout with a close clearance that locates the wheel. It gets really frustrating when you want to mix and match.

Willy
07-07-2019, 02:47 PM
I found that to my joy when my neighbor needed a flat taken off their little-used BMW. Been on for 12 years (never rotated!). The rim was "one" with hubs; took a lot of effort, timbers, 10lb sledge etc. 12 winters of grit, salt and whatever.

I'd bet good money that it was an alloy wheel that was stuck to the hub due to the effects of galvanic corrosion between the aluminum/magnesium wheel and the steel hub.



That's the reason to use "Never-Seez" on lug nuts, being sure to get it on the tapered surface.

Abd, before some kind soul solemnly warns me that using any "lube" on the lug nuts will cause them to back off and cause the wheel to come off...... NO it will not....


No amount of anti-seize on the studs will prevent this. The anti-seize should instead be applied to the wheel/hub interface.

The use of anti-seize use on wheel mounting hardware goes against all recommended practices as laid out by the automotive manufacturers and wheel and tire industries. They do however recommend the use of engine oil or grease as a lube on wheel mounting hardware.
And yes wheels do come off due to the use of anti-seize, not because they become loose from it's use but because of wheel mounting hardware failure due to the hardware being stretched beyond it's yield point. Once the fastener has lost it's elasticity it is no long effective in it's role as a fastener, that's how the nut either becomes loose or the stud itself breaks.

There where a very large number of high profile commercial wheel-off incidents a number of years ago that resulted in fatalities. In almost every case it was determined that the use of anti-seize was the main contributor of the hardware failure.

The use of anti-seize in this application was very common in the old days but we learn from our mistakes and move forward. Old habits die slowly but if you check with those that do this professionally you will find it is no longer an accepted practice.
I recently attended a transportation industry safety seminar where this point was driven home by not only industry stakeholders but also by a spokesman for the RCMP Integrated Collision Analysis and Reconstruction Service.
They specifically stated that it's use is easy to spot and it will come up in court.

Unless you take precautionary measures in torquing your own personal vehicle's wheels and can be certain that no one else will ever touch them, I highly recommend that you do not continue to apply anti-seize on wheel mounting hardware.

lynnl
07-07-2019, 03:42 PM
That's interesting. I would not think never-seize would reduce tightening friction, that much more, or even as much as oil or grease, to the extent that any REASONABLE amount of torque would stretch the lug bolts past the yield point.

What about the pine tar treatment Cameron described? Intuitively, doesn't seem like that would cause a problem, i.e. reducing tightening friction/over torquing.

But since Willy is the one who raised this point, and I enjoy watching "Highway Thru Hell" (Heavy rescue truck adventures in British Columbia, I'm curious if, say the trucking industry, makes allowances for extremely cold conditions in fastener torque.

J Tiers
07-07-2019, 03:45 PM
Of COURSE I WILL CONTINUE....

Anyone who tightens a lubed fastener, and ENGINE OIL IS NO DIFFERENT, if they torque to the same point as if dry is a blame fool.

Now, if you use the particulate never0seez, maybe it happens.... I use the graphite type. it's rather different.

Possibly you have never sheared a lug with a cheater bar on the totally stuck tight nut in the boonies late at night. I do not recommend it.

When the nuts are removed, with the graphite, they are tight, but come off with a regular wrench. if not, then they resist a several foot cheater and 180+ person jumping on it.

I stick with never seez, and I recommend it.

dave_r
07-07-2019, 03:53 PM
On my truck ('04 Sierra 3500), which has hub-centric wheels, I haven't had problems with removing the lug nuts, but have had problems breaking the rims loose from the hug, until I started periodically cleaning rust/dirt off the centering lip and smearing anti-seize on the surface of the hub and centering lip. I don't put anti-seize on the studs, as I've had some lugs come loose.

cameron
07-07-2019, 04:28 PM
I've had to use a sledge hammer on a few hub centric steel wheels, Willy. Maybe we use a better quality salt on our roads than you do out there :(

What you posted on anti-seize is much appreciated. I'll continue to use pine tar, though, it's not "real" anti-seize , and I don't think it's more likely to cause problems than the oil or grease you say the manufacturers recommend, and it sure does a better job of keeping away rust.

And, until I get my wrench arm recalibrated, I'll continue to use a torque wrench every time on wheel nuts. It always gets them tighter than I would have made them without its use.

Talking strictly automobiles, of course, I'll leave the big stuff to people who know better.

Willy
07-07-2019, 04:31 PM
Of COURSE I WILL CONTINUE....

Anyone who tightens a lubed fastener, and ENGINE OIL IS NO DIFFERENT, if they torque to the same point as if dry is a blame fool.

Now, if you use the particulate never0seez, maybe it happens.... I use the graphite type. it's rather different.

Possibly you have never sheared a lug with a cheater bar on the totally stuck tight nut in the boonies late at night. I do not recommend it.

When the nuts are removed, with the graphite, they are tight, but come off with a regular wrench. if not, then they resist a several foot cheater and 180+ person jumping on it.

I stick with never seez, and I recommend it.



Great, maybe you should contact Peramtex and tell them they should change their recommendation.

https://www.permatex.com/faqwd/permatex-suggest-applying-anti-seize-lubricate-lug-nuts-installing-tightening-nuts/



Does Permatex® suggest applying anti-seize to lubricate lug nuts when installing or tightening the nuts?

Posted on: February 18th, 2016
Permatex® does not recommend the use of any anti-seize product on wheel studs. Many people have used anti-seize for this applications, however, there is the potential for over-torqueing and therefore, higher clamp loads and potentially dangerous bolt stretch. Because of the lubricity of anti-seize, there is a tendency to over-tighten because of the ease with which the nut will bear down on the lug. For this reason, even if you try to torque the nuts to factory specs, the clamp load may become too high depending on the type of bolt, size and manufacturer.






I should clarify the use of oil on wheel fasteners. The drop or two of oil should only apply to hub piloted nuts that use a captive flanged nut at the flange/nut jucnture. Everything else should be clean and dry, this is what the wheel mounting hardware torque figures are based on.

J Tiers
07-07-2019, 11:00 PM
Assembled dry, they become welded together, no other way to state it. They get to the point that it should be a recommendation to change out the studs and nuts with each wheel change.

With the stuff I use, they are tight, it takes force to break them loose, but nothing ridiculous, and in 40 years, I have never had any problem with a lug nut so treated.

As for the recommendation, Permatex is NEVER going to "recommend" doing ANYTHING different on wheels. The legal department would have a heart attack.....They would be fools to stick their necks under that knife, because then Permatex will be on the hook for all the damages from anything that can be remotely related to that usage, even theoretically. No matter what they say, if it is different from the automaker's instructions, they will be on the hook for ANY problem that EVER occurs. And they have no control whatever over what "use of" never-seez means when some "consumer" out there "uses" it.

It really has nothing much to do with real actual problems, whether or not there are any such, it is about taking on a responsibility. They are actually not going to make ANY recommendation for any specific "high confidence" usage, because of the same considerations.

I bet their own employees use it on lug nuts.

Arcane
07-08-2019, 12:58 AM
Assembled dry, they become welded together, no other way to state it.........

I've seen one vehicle where the lug nut was galling so bad it was debatable if it would come off. With a lot of patience and lubing with a light oil it did but the nut and stud were toast. The rest of the studs and nuts on the car were toast also. Relatively new vehicle too.



A friend of mine owns his own garage and has been a GREAT mechanic for several decades. He's been lubing wheel studs with light oil for decades also and has never had one issue with them.

It's an old wives tale that using oil to lube wheel studs will cause them to loosen. It absolutely will not. What will cause them to loosen is not tightening them properly in the first place.

Willy
07-08-2019, 01:00 AM
I'm not saying that the use of anti-seize on wheel mounting hardware will somehow make wheels fall off. On the contrary I can appreciate why it has been used, however it has also been much abused due to the lack of understanding as to what is happening to the fastener when proper measures aren't taken.

Speaking of which , I did a bit of a search to find what sort of torque reduction is required when it is used on a fastener in order to achieve the same clamp load. I went with strictly industry information and avoided anecdotal reports and forum advice. Even when looking for what should be reliable info I still got data stating that torque requirements needed to be reduced anywhere from 20%-55%! Holy cow, quite a spread, no reliable consensus there. I'm sure differing formulations would have a dramatic difference in the results, I guess??? Confusion is what we don't need when it comes to wheel retention.

This is why the recommendation for clean and dry wheel studs and nuts prior to torquing fasteners because it is such a safety critical application. It creates a level playing field, or a standard if you will.
As I previously stated, nothing wrong with it's use provided that you can ensure that only you will ever torque those wheel nuts. If your wife should have a flat away from home and Jethro on the service truck zaps on the spare with his impact, how will you know how much past the yield point those fasteners have been taken?

This is why we have standards and accepted practices.

Two fasteners, identical torque applied to both,, one dry the other a liberal application of anti-seize.


http://electricaltesttech.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/stretchedbolt.jpg

gambler
07-09-2019, 09:11 AM
for you guys having problems removing stuck wheels, loosen lug nuts or lug bolts one or two turns with a breaker bar, then rock car side to side. pops them loose every time.

J Tiers
07-09-2019, 09:53 AM
for you guys having problems removing stuck wheels, loosen lug nuts or lug bolts one or two turns with a breaker bar, then rock car side to side. pops them loose every time.

Eh? What?

It's the nuts that are frozen solid..... the wheel comes off no issue. Stuck as in the nut twists off the stud, maybe......

Discussing "torque" with respect to lug nuts is also pretty funny. Ha Ha.

Torque has no meaning with lug nuts.

At the tire shops, they put the nuts back on with an impact wrench, and let it run. They can get stretch torque dry, it's practically stir welding the nut to the studs. Don't talk to me about torquing lug nuts....

Willy
07-09-2019, 10:42 AM
Eh? What?

It's the nuts that are frozen solid..... the wheel comes off no issue. Stuck as in the nut twists off the stud, maybe......

Discussing "torque" with respect to lug nuts is also pretty funny. Ha Ha.

Torque has no meaning with lug nuts.

At the tire shops, they put the nuts back on with an impact wrench, and let it run. They can get stretch torque dry, it's practically stir welding the nut to the studs. Don't talk to me about torquing lug nuts....

I believe what gambler was referring to was when alloy wheels get bonded onto the steel hub due to corrosion. Hub piloted wheels only aggravate this situation.

I think that you need to seek out a more progressive and professional tire shop. Seriously!
When I get my tires/wheels changed the only time an impact is used is when the wheels are removed. All mounting hardware is wire brushed clean, mounting surfaces on the wheel hub, face, and spindle are also wire brushed wire using an air powered tool to ensure a clean mount surface. The wheels are then torqued with a torque wrench and are-torque reminder is placed conspicuously in the vehicle and a verbal reminder is also given before the car is released. This is critical with aluminum wheels as they will need it in spite of all of the extra mount care.

These steps weren't taken in the good old days but up here at least it is today on all vehicles.

Hey I'm not the one twisting wheel studs off at midnight out in the boonies, not that I haven't been there, after having been the victim of shoddy tire shops in the past.:o
Don't accept substandard work.

J Tiers
07-09-2019, 12:04 PM
,,,,,,,

I think that you need to seek out a more progressive and professional tire shop. Seriously!
.........

Yah...... Bubba works at all of them..... that guy is the busiest SOB I know. This is 3rd world nation of Missouri, not some high-falutin big city somewhere in the US.

That's why I do my own tire changing.... take the wheel in separately, and they do not get to mount it....

gambler
07-09-2019, 01:56 PM
I believe what gambler was referring to was when alloy wheels get bonded onto the steel hub due to corrosion. Hub piloted wheels only aggravate this situation.

I think that you need to seek out a more progressive and professional tire shop. Seriously!
When I get my tires/wheels changed the only time an impact is used is when the wheels are removed. All mounting hardware is wire brushed clean, mounting surfaces on the wheel hub, face, and spindle are also wire brushed wire using an air powered tool to ensure a clean mount surface. The wheels are then torqued with a torque wrench and are-torque reminder is placed conspicuously in the vehicle and a verbal reminder is also given before the car is released. This is critical with aluminum wheels as they will need it in spite of all of the extra mount care.

These steps weren't taken in the good old days but up here at least it is today on all vehicles.

Hey I'm not the one twisting wheel studs off at midnight out in the boonies, not that I haven't been there, after having been the victim of shoddy tire shops in the past.:o
Don't accept substandard work.

exactly. bmw, audi , mbz owners know what I mean.

Willy
07-09-2019, 03:56 PM
HELP,I am working on an invention for mounting wheels on cars and trailers. Is their any agreed upon actual thru hole size for the wheel studs.As an example,my 16 inch trailer has 1/2 20 studs . My wheels have a .600 .615 thru holes. The wheels locate on a taper on the lug nuts,so the actual thru hole is clearance only.Is it whatever some manufacturer thinks is OK ?.Or ere there standards? Thank you Edwin Dirnbeck

Edwin, getting back on track again.:o
You asked about thru hole diameter on wheels in relation to a new concept for mounting wheels that you are working on. Does this involve a pilot pin in order to locate and help position the wheel more easily?

If so these do already exist in various forms. The heavy duty truck versions help to locate the hub piloted wheel much more easily as they thread onto the existing studs in order to help facilitate wheel mounting more accurately and they help to prevent damage to the wheel and hub pilot, never mind the installer.:)

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/21vEY4fMxML.jpg

These are the ones I've seen used on cars, and gambler may be familiar with them too as they are used on a lot of German cars. These cars typically use wheel bolts instead of studs and the brake rotors are separate from the hub. When new, the rotors are held onto the hub with one tiny screw, in the real world these usually get broken off making wheel installation difficult. Because now you have to line up 3 holes while holding the wheel in one hand and trying to start a bolt with the other. Inserting a couple of studs first makes the job much easier. Inserting two of these alignment pins through the rotor and into the hub allows one to merely slide the wheel/tire onto the pins while starting the other wheel bolts.

http://bestvaluecompany.com/autotools/image/cache/data/a/Access_Tools/alluminum_wheel_pilot_pins_bmw_vw_mercedes-01-500x500.jpg

gambler
07-09-2019, 07:55 PM
yah willy I have those. much easier then without

Edwin Dirnbeck
07-09-2019, 11:02 PM
My Snap-On wheel balancer has a wheel lift built into it. You could just as easily use it to mount large wheels. I don't understand why you would want to use the mount holes to lift a wheel/tire. There are all types of tire OD lift assist tools. Also, not all vehicles use studs--Some use bolts.
My tool would be a mass market tool selling for about $35 . How much does your examples sell for? Edwin Dirnbeck

CarlByrns
07-11-2019, 09:09 PM
That's the reason to use "Never-Seez" on lug nuts, being sure to get it on the tapered surface.

Abd, before some kind soul solemnly warns me that using any "lube" on the lug nuts will cause them to back off and cause the wheel to come off...... NO it will not....

Never Seize, grease, oil, ect won't make the lug nuts unscrew themselves, but if the lug nuts are the open type, the grease can and will pick up road dirt and brake dust which will do a dandy job of ruining the wheel stud threads when the lug nuts are removed.
Also, all wheel fasteners are torque-spec'd dry, not wet. Big difference.
Here in the Rust Belt, good techs put a thin film of Never Seize on the wheel mounting surface- that is where corrosion between the alloy wheel and the iron brake rotor (or drum) will cold-weld the wheel on to the point the wheel will have to be sledged off.
Of course, rotating the tires every six months (and applying a dab of Never Seize) will make the inevitable 4 AM tire change go a lot quicker.

CarlByrns
07-11-2019, 09:13 PM
My tool would be a mass market tool selling for about $35 . How much does your examples sell for? Edwin Dirnbeck

As a practical matter, any tire up to tractor-trailer size can be presented to the hub with a couple of pieces of two by four used as a lever.

CarlByrns
07-11-2019, 09:19 PM
for you guys having problems removing stuck wheels, loosen lug nuts or lug bolts one or two turns with a breaker bar, then rock car side to side. pops them loose every time.

Yep. Old shop trick.
If that doesn't work, loosen the nuts and drop the car about three inches by opening the hydraulic jack quick.
If that doesn't work, loosen the nuts and drive the car in circles at low speed in the parking lot. You'll hear the wheels 'pop'.

J Tiers
07-12-2019, 01:35 AM
Never Seize, grease, oil, ect won't make the lug nuts unscrew themselves, but if the lug nuts are the open type, the grease can and will pick up road dirt and brake dust which will do a dandy job of ruining the wheel stud threads when the lug nuts are removed.
Also, all wheel fasteners are torque-spec'd dry, not wet. Big difference.
Here in the Rust Belt, good techs put a thin film of Never Seize on the wheel mounting surface- that is where corrosion between the alloy wheel and the iron brake rotor (or drum) will cold-weld the wheel on to the point the wheel will have to be sledged off.
Of course, rotating the tires every six months (and applying a dab of Never Seize) will make the inevitable 4 AM tire change go a lot quicker.

Apples and agates...

Steel wheels, iron hubs, steel studs, steel nuts. Not hub-centric, instead centered by the nuts, which gall and freeze solid on the wheel recesses and/or the threads.

A dab of never-seez on the HUB will have just about as much effect on removing the wheel as pouring the engine oil on the back bumper has on lubing the crankshaft.

BigMike782
07-12-2019, 08:50 AM
Agreed! Just about every tire repair shop will say that using any lube on the lug nuts will cause them to back off". If you ask them why connecting rod bolts and main cap bolts in an engine which are speced to use oil as a lubricant when torquing them don't come loose, they have no answer.

You're expecting a tire knocker to know what a connecting rod bolt and nut are AND the specifics of tightening the same?:D:D:D:D

754
07-12-2019, 11:09 AM
J Tiers we get......... it your Model A don't need never seize on the hub..

CarlByrns
07-12-2019, 12:16 PM
Apples and agates...

Steel wheels, iron hubs, steel studs, steel nuts. Not hub-centric, instead centered by the nuts, which gall and freeze solid on the wheel recesses and/or the threads.

A dab of never-seez on the HUB will have just about as much effect on removing the wheel as pouring the engine oil on the back bumper has on lubing the crankshaft.

Jerry-
The wheel has to be mounted to a hub (or brake rotor/drum) - that will be the largest contact area and it will be where the corrosion will happen. I can't believe that a lug nut has enough surface area for corrosion to lock it to the wheel. Remember, I live dead center in the Rust/Salt belt and have removed thousands of wheels and I can't think of a single time a lug nut rusted to the wheel. I have seen hundreds of wheels stuck to the mounting surface.

J Tiers
07-12-2019, 12:41 PM
Jerry-
The wheel has to be mounted to a hub (or brake rotor/drum) - that will be the largest contact area and it will be where the corrosion will happen. I can't believe that a lug nut has enough surface area for corrosion to lock it to the wheel. Remember, I live dead center in the Rust/Salt belt and have removed thousands of wheels and I can't think of a single time a lug nut rusted to the wheel. I have seen hundreds of wheels stuck to the mounting surface.

CORRODED? I have said it GALLED, or in other ways became stuck. Stuck enough that a long cheater bar still required a good effort to remove the lug nut. I have jumped on the end of a long wrench, with no effect. I weigh a bit over 180 lb. When removed, the contact surfaces are clean, but look galled.

Got it now?

I don't care if you say I am a liar...... I know what I have had to remove, and YOU do not. The use of never-seez, the graphite type, fixes that so that the tools available out on the road can, with effort, remove the wheel.

hey, I'm DONE with being told that "it did not happen".... try another thread.

Edwin Dirnbeck
07-12-2019, 09:44 PM
Problem solved, I went to a large pick and pull JUNK YARD. I checked many aluminum and steel wheels , the smallest thru hole that I found for 1/2 inch wheel studs was .600. Some were as large as .670.As for as the neverseize deal ,I have been using it since the beginning of time ,Im 78.Thanks to all that answered .Edwin Dirnbeck

The Metal Butcher
07-13-2019, 12:57 AM
I'd bet good money that it was an alloy wheel that was stuck to the hub due to the effects of galvanic corrosion between the aluminum/magnesium wheel and the steel hub.





No amount of anti-seize on the studs will prevent this. The anti-seize should instead be applied to the wheel/hub interface.

The use of anti-seize use on wheel mounting hardware goes against all recommended practices as laid out by the automotive manufacturers and wheel and tire industries. They do however recommend the use of engine oil or grease as a lube on wheel mounting hardware.
And yes wheels do come off due to the use of anti-seize, not because they become loose from it's use but because of wheel mounting hardware failure due to the hardware being stretched beyond it's yield point. Once the fastener has lost it's elasticity it is no long effective in it's role as a fastener, that's how the nut either becomes loose or the stud itself breaks.

There where a very large number of high profile commercial wheel-off incidents a number of years ago that resulted in fatalities. In almost every case it was determined that the use of anti-seize was the main contributor of the hardware failure.

The use of anti-seize in this application was very common in the old days but we learn from our mistakes and move forward. Old habits die slowly but if you check with those that do this professionally you will find it is no longer an accepted practice.
I recently attended a transportation industry safety seminar where this point was driven home by not only industry stakeholders but also by a spokesman for the RCMP Integrated Collision Analysis and Reconstruction Service.
They specifically stated that it's use is easy to spot and it will come up in court.

Unless you take precautionary measures in torquing your own personal vehicle's wheels and can be certain that no one else will ever touch them, I highly recommend that you do not continue to apply anti-seize on wheel mounting hardware.

What a crock of crap. You take a car to a jiffy lube (or often the dealer) and they hammer the lugs on with an impact to 400 ft-lbs at least. And you're telling me that my anti-seized lugs torqued to 80 ft-lbs are more likely to stretch and break? Dream on.

If this anti-sieze is so much better of a lube allowing for so much less friction and thus more tightening, why don't we lube everything with it? It out to have replaced grease long ago if that's the case.

BigMike782
07-13-2019, 06:53 AM
Ahhh, summer time.....you can tell by old men arguing about mindless crap:)

CarlByrns
07-13-2019, 11:02 AM
What a crock of crap. You take a car to a jiffy lube (or often the dealer) and they hammer the lugs on with an impact to 400 ft-lbs at least. And you're telling me that my anti-seized lugs torqued to 80 ft-lbs are more likely to stretch and break? Dream on.

If this anti-sieze is so much better of a lube allowing for so much less friction and thus more tightening, why don't we lube everything with it? It out to have replaced grease long ago if that's the case.

Google 'torque stick'- that's how most garages torque wheel nuts.

Only an idiot hammers a wheel on- there's too much chance for wheel, stud, or hub damage- all of which the tech will have to fix as a 'comeback' with zero pay.
Since Willy has had a career in the petroleum field, I'd trust his advice.

CarlByrns
07-13-2019, 11:18 AM
Ahhh, summer time.....you can tell by old men arguing about mindless crap:)

Except this isn't mindless. Just because you do something the wrong way and get away with it doesn't mean your way is acceptable.

I've seen a lot of crackpot vehicle repairs where the owner just shrugs and says he'll risk it, but the thing is it's everyone around him that's at-risk.
A couple of years ago a guy near here decided that he didn't have to grease the wheel bearings for his boat trailer. Never had an issue with the bearings. Got away with it for years. A bearing failed at highway speed, the axle snapped and the tire and wheel assembly smashed through the windshield of another car, killing the driver. Trailer owner went to jail.

Willy
07-13-2019, 03:50 PM
What a crock of crap. You take a car to a jiffy lube (or often the dealer) and they hammer the lugs on with an impact to 400 ft-lbs at least. And you're telling me that my anti-seized lugs torqued to 80 ft-lbs are more likely to stretch and break? Dream on.

If this anti-sieze is so much better of a lube allowing for so much less friction and thus more tightening, why don't we lube everything with it? It out to have replaced grease long ago if that's the case.

Having been deeply involved it the commercial transportation industry for over 40 years, with an impeccable safety record i might add, I can see that your lack of experience on the subject overshoots your ability to type a civil response. If you can't wrap you head around the fact that various lubricants will display vastly different coefficients of friction then I may as well be typing this response to the wind.

Being mostly involved in the movement of dangerous goods and and heavy equipment, safety has been more than just an idle preoccupation for me. I take the act of moving a 140,000lbs of petroleum or chemicals safely very seriously. I take great pride on my ability to have done this in all weather and road conditions without incident.

I use whatever knowledge that I can glean from my peers and industry stakeholders to my advantage. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not the sharpest stick in the woodpile but I am smart enough to learn from those of others that have walked the same path safely before me and not repeat the mistakes of others that haven't. Legal and moral accountability for my actions is a key factor to being as safe as possible, not dying is also a very good incentive to stack the deck in my favor however I can.

As CarlByrns mentioned previously, wheel-off are a very serious concern. Although in his example it was due to bad maintenance practices, the number of wheel-off incidents involving commercial vehicles hit a peak about 20 years ago largely attributable to the use of anti seiz.
Old habits die slowly, I too was reluctant to discontinue it's use but the overwhelming evidence against the practice suggested I learn from the mistakes of others.

Looking back I remember spotting the odd broken wheel stud during my pre-trip inspections but due the very random occurrence I just attributed it to happenstance. I also remember long ago walking the guardrail on a stretch of highway with a very sharp corner and picking up several broken wheel studs with the nut still attached. Other than thinking at the time that they probably came from the outside corner steering axle wheel due to the extreme loading, I didn't give it much thought. And yes they all had anti seize on them, didn't give that much thought either as everybody was using it back then, including me. I have however not replaced one stud on my own trucks in the last 20-25 years since discontinuing the use of anti seize on wheel mounting hardware. Just luck? I don't think so.

A little article below to enlighten you if you care to read it, much more evidence out there if you want to do a little unbiased research.

Debunking a myth (https://www.fleetowner.com/equipment/tiretracks/fleet_debunking_myth)


The age-old practice of using anti-seize compounds as wheel system lubricants has never been approved or endorsed by a wheel, hub or fastener manufacturer. It hails back to the day of stud-piloted or Budd wheel systems when the inner and outer cap nuts were constantly “freezing” together during the removal process. Someone figured out that by coating the threads with high temperature anti-seize compounds the fasteners would come apart. The inherent rust inhibiting properties appeared to be an added bonus.

But nobody asked the question: “Why do inner and outer cap nuts freeze together
in the first place?” The answers are typically things like worn or damaged threads, excessive corrosion or uneven torque between the fasteners. The use of anti-seize compounds on stud-piloted wheels keeps bad fasteners in service longer. When they freeze together, it's usually a sign that the threads are either worn or about to wear out. Anti-seize makes sure they come apart so they're put back on the vehicle. Brilliant.
If that isn't enough, stud-piloted wheel systems require a dry torque, so the use of a lubricant like anti-seize will result in more pounds of clamping force per foot-pound of torque. Among the results are accelerated rates of stud fatigue and ball seat wear. So anti-seize decreases the service life of both the stud and the wheel.

Since the people who use anti-seize are creatures of habit, many of them adapted it to the newer hub-piloted wheels for the same reasons. While they could be considered correct from the lubrication standpoint, the torque setting for hub-piloted wheels is oiled.
Once again, none of the wheel, hub, or fastener manufacturers even mentions anti-seize, and all of them agree the only acceptable lubricant is 30-weight oil, with 2-3 drops applied to the threads on the end of the studs and 2-3 drops between the flange and the nut body.
Substituting the 2-3 drops of 30-weight oil with a couple globs of anti-seize is going to reduce the amount of clamping force per foot-pound of torque. When any variation of the word “reduction” is used in association with the key component of wheel retention, everyone owning or operating a truck should pay special attention. Anti-seize on hub-piloted fasteners leads to wheel-offs and the evidence remains on the wheel end in question following the accident. It's a slam-dunk for the plaintiff's attorney.
Take a walk through your maintenance shop and look for cans of anti-seize. They represent an unnecessary expense no matter what the tire guy says. Then take a walk around your yard and look for evidence of metallic (usually silver or copper) residue around the studs and nuts. If you can see it, so can the lawyer. Whoever is responsible for installing your wheels must understand the anti-seize myth is costing them money and exposing everyone to unnecessary risk.

The Metal Butcher
07-17-2019, 11:06 PM
Having been deeply involved it the commercial transportation industry for over 40 years, with an impeccable safety record i might add, I can see that your lack of experience on the subject overshoots your ability to type a civil response. If you can't wrap you head around the fact that various lubricants will display vastly different coefficients of friction then I may as well be typing this response to the wind.

Being mostly involved in the movement of dangerous goods and and heavy equipment, safety has been more than just an idle preoccupation for me. I take the act of moving a 140,000lbs of petroleum or chemicals safely very seriously. I take great pride on my ability to have done this in all weather and road conditions without incident.

I use whatever knowledge that I can glean from my peers and industry stakeholders to my advantage. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not the sharpest stick in the woodpile but I am smart enough to learn from those of others that have walked the same path safely before me and not repeat the mistakes of others that haven't. Legal and moral accountability for my actions is a key factor to being as safe as possible, not dying is also a very good incentive to stack the deck in my favor however I can.

As CarlByrns mentioned previously, wheel-off are a very serious concern. Although in his example it was due to bad maintenance practices, the number of wheel-off incidents involving commercial vehicles hit a peak about 20 years ago largely attributable to the use of anti seiz.
Old habits die slowly, I too was reluctant to discontinue it's use but the overwhelming evidence against the practice suggested I learn from the mistakes of others.

Looking back I remember spotting the odd broken wheel stud during my pre-trip inspections but due the very random occurrence I just attributed it to happenstance. I also remember long ago walking the guardrail on a stretch of highway with a very sharp corner and picking up several broken wheel studs with the nut still attached. Other than thinking at the time that they probably came from the outside corner steering axle wheel due to the extreme loading, I didn't give it much thought. And yes they all had anti seize on them, didn't give that much thought either as everybody was using it back then, including me. I have however not replaced one stud on my own trucks in the last 20-25 years since discontinuing the use of anti seize on wheel mounting hardware. Just luck? I don't think so.

A little article below to enlighten you if you care to read it, much more evidence out there if you want to do a little unbiased research.

Debunking a myth (https://www.fleetowner.com/equipment/tiretracks/fleet_debunking_myth)

Hi Willy

I guess I came off a bit hot-headed and brash, and I apologize. However, I still take issue with your statement. My problem is that your argument lies entirely in anecdote and lawyer-speak and lacks entirely in the logic department.
Let’s start with the issue: Lugs are over-tensioned due a decrease in friction from applied lubricant while still torqued to a traditional setting.
There are two solutions to this problem, and you seem to only be able to see one of them.

1: Stop using anti-seize
2: Reduce Torque

In your 40 years of trucking, did you ever see anyone actually torque a lug? I’ve only ever seen big impacts used. You mention that this problem heightened 20 years ago. Is that because anti-seize became more commonplace, or because impacts got stronger?
Secondly, your use of oil or grease makes no sense what-so-ever. If we are worried about overtorqueing lugs due to friction reduction, then we wouldn’t want anything that could possibly reduce torque over the dry values, let alone something with as good or better friction reduction co-efficient than anti-seize. Why would we want to apply something that will make it easier to go on anyway, when coming off is the hard part? Or is it because galling is a real issue on dry threads….

Scenario A
Lets say that the grease gives a 10% reduction in torque. So we hammer the lug until just before the impact stops, at 800 ft-lbs times a 1.1 friction coefficient to 880 dry equivalent foot-lbs. Now 10 years later, when we go to remove it, the grease is hard, the lug is rusty and it takes 80% more power to get it off. Now we need 1580 ft-lbs to get it off and the rattle gun can’t do it. Out comes the torch, the lug is heated and removed, doing some galling on the way out. The stud is now damaged and compromised by heat and should be replaced. But we’re cheapo Mr. Joe Trucker, that costs money and there is still a lot of thread left, so we hammer the nut back on.

Scenario B
Magical anti-seize is a better lubricant than grease with a 20% friction reduction. I put the lug on, run it until it seats with the rattle gun and then apply 360-400 ft-lbs with a torque wrench to equal the recommended 450-500 ft-lbs. Even with a super magical 50% reduction in friction, that still only puts me at 800ft-lbs dry equivalent, less than Joe Trucker.
Am I still more dangerous than he is? According to your lawyers who can’t see an over-torqued lug I am.

Again, sorry I was so frustrated, but I am a man of logic and illogical arguments can be infuriating. So please, if you wish to reply, hit me back with logic. If it’s more anecdotes or lawyer-speak, save yourself the typing. I have heard and personally been saved many a times by using anti-seize on things. My personal rule of thumb for outdoor/vehicular hardware is that if it doesn’t get Loctite, it gets anti-seize. Until I’d talked to you or started searching out examples, I’d never heard of any problems caused by it. While I agree that the problem you describe is a real one, I think it will only rear its head in the case of an already massively over-torque fastener.


P.s., Since you like anecdotes, here is one for you. My father took his delivery truck to have new tires put on. He told the tire guy we wanted to be able to get them back off on the road with the included 2 foot wrench. The big-ol’ guy puts the lugs on and gives them just a few uga-dugs, then tries to remove them with the wrench to check the torque. He can’t do it. He loosens it, then runs it back down and lets it hammer just once. He still cannot remove it. So he finish torques all of them with the bar. So again, is my dad more dangerous, using his bar and anti-seize, than your average shop monkey hammering dry lugs home?

PStechPaul
07-18-2019, 01:17 AM
I've never actually used a torque wrench on any of my vehicles, and (knock on wood), never had a problem with a lug nut coming loose or a stud breaking. I have also usually used oil in the stud threads, and a manually operated x-cross lug wrench. So I have probably applied something like 50-100 lb-ft torque, which is pretty much in keeping with the specifications:

https://www.jegs.com/images/photos/300/326/326-wheelnuttorquespecs.pdf

https://wheelandtireproz.com/lug-nut-torque-chart/

https://itstillruns.com/proper-torque-wheel-nuts-7356894.html

More discussion of lubrication and anti-seize compound:
https://mechanics.stackexchange.com/questions/30450/grease-on-wheel-bolts-or-not

Next time I visit my mechanic I'll ask if he torques wheel lug nuts to specification, or if he uses any sort of lube. I don't really do very much work on my vehicles anymore. But it may be common for many shops, especially discount tire places, to just crank down on the lug nuts with an impact wrench, probably at least 200 lb-ft, which is way too much.

My 1999 Saturn, which I junked in November due to serious frame rust, has always had one missing/broken stud:
http://enginuitysystems.com/pix/house/Saturn_Frame_Rust_4855.jpg

The Metal Butcher
07-18-2019, 01:37 AM
Doesn't just have to be a discount tire place. My brother's Subaru dealer certainly did. I could stand on a 2 foot breaker bar and his lugs wouldn't budge. The old weak 1/2" impact I used barely removed them. To make matters worse, one wheel had a wheel lock on it. The 1/2" gun wasn't getting it and was beating the snot out of the lock, so I grabbed the 3/4" gun hoping to do it in less impacts, pushed in with all my weight and cammed the lock adapter out in one blow. I told him to take it back to the dealer and make it their problem. He did and had the lock replaced with a nut. This was a 20000 mile car and had never been touched by anyone other than the dealer. The lugs must have been 3-4x overtorqued.

On the flip side I asked Walmart to torque my wheels to 80 ft-lbs when I had my tires changed, they did, and I confirmed it later. They came off very easily with a 2 foot breaker bar thanks to my anti-seize. No lug has ever loosened when checking them.

cameron
07-18-2019, 10:02 AM
[QUOTE=PStechPaul;1247748]I've never actually used a torque wrench on any of my vehicles, and (knock on wood), never had a problem with a lug nut coming loose or a stud breaking. I have also usually used oil in the stud threads, and a manually operated x-cross lug wrench. So I have probably applied something like 50-100 lb-ft torque, which is pretty much in keeping with the specifications:

More discussion of lubrication and anti-seize compound:
time I visit my mechanic I'll ask if he torques wheel lug nuts to specification, or if he uses any sort of lube. I don't really do very much work on my vehicles anymore. But it may be common for many shops, especially discount tire places, to just crank down on the lug nuts with an impact wrench, probably at least 200 lb-ft, which is way too much.

My 1999 Saturn, which I junked in November due to serious frame rust, has always had one missing/broken stud:
http://enginuitysystems.com/pix/house/Saturn_Frame_Rust_4855.jpg[/QUOTE

Which vehicle of yours had a specification of 50-100lb-ft torque ?

It's obvious that would not have a problem with a stud breaking. Neither do you have a problem with driving on a wheel with three studs.

What torque did you use for the nut on the missing stud?

mikey553
07-18-2019, 01:21 PM
I go to a car dealer only to fix the recalls. All other service is done by myself. Once a year I do the vehicle inspection, clean and lubricate brakes, rotate the tires. I have 2 Toyotas now with the lug nut spec of 76 ft-lb. The studs are of a common M12 x 1.5 size. I put a little of a regular wheel bearing grease on threads and nut tapers. I used to torque them to the factory spec and never had a problem with that for the last 27 years. Studs and nuts are never rusty and it is very easy to remove the wheel. The most important thing is that practice almost stopped the wear on the wheel and nut tapers. I always used a calibrated torque wrench and went around nuts at least 3 times, gradually increasing the torque.

Recently I started reducing the torque to about 65-67 ft-lb realizing the need for that due to lubricated fasteners. It may not be very important for Toyota with the low torque specs, but I used to have a Chevy car with a 100 ft-lb lug nut torque spec and the same size studs. Torquing lubricated fasteners this much is dangerous since you are approaching the stud material yield. Of course I do not know which material grade each car manufacturer uses for its studs, so it's better be safe than sorry.

One more word of caution. Torque wrenches are not very precision tools. Regular mechanical clickers have a +/- 4% of full scale torque tolerance spec and can loose it in time and need to be calibrated often to maintain their accuracy. I am in the process of building a torque calibrator to help myself and maybe some others.

Fasttrack
07-18-2019, 01:30 PM
In your 40 years of trucking, did you ever see anyone actually torque a lug?

...

Again, sorry I was so frustrated, but I am a man of logic and illogical arguments can be infuriating. So please, if you wish to reply, hit me back with logic. If it’s more anecdotes or lawyer-speak, save yourself the typing. I have heard and personally been saved many a times by using anti-seize on things. My personal rule of thumb for outdoor/vehicular hardware is that if it doesn’t get Loctite, it gets anti-seize. Until I’d talked to you or started searching out examples, I’d never heard of any problems caused by it. While I agree that the problem you describe is a real one, I think it will only rear its head in the case of an already massively over-torque fastener.

Hey Metal Butcher - you're kind of new here, I seem to recall you're working on your Bachelor's in ME, right? I first joined this board back when I was still in high school and I totally get where you're coming from, especially these days where the internet abounds with ridiculous advice. We should all be skeptical of anecdotal evidence and seemingly unsupported claims. But what you're offering is anecdotes in favor of using anti-seize. Let me see if I can put some of this in context:

1) I have an advanced degree in experimental particle physics and - in a bizarre twist of fate - I now work as the lead system engineer across the entire Detection Technologies enterprise for an aerospace and defense contractor. I manage a large staff of mechanical, electrical, and software engineers. One of the most important skills I've developed is being able to sniff out BS! That said, Willy is one of the guys on this board that pretty much always passes the smell test. He gives really good, level-headed advice. I don't know what opinion you may have formed of him, but he is not a "Bubba" truck driver. He's torqued more lug nuts than you and I combined, so it's worth treating him with some respect. He has a lot of good experience to draw upon. But I agree with you that anecdotes alone are not valid arguments and it's always worth doing some independent research to verify or refute a claim.

2) Vehicles are sort of funny from an engineering perspective. Things that get regularly touched by mechanics are designed to be pretty forgiving. However, when you are pushing the engineering envelope, you will find that dry versus lubed (and even what type of lube) is *extremely* important. It does not just affect "massively over-torqued" fasteners. In fact, properly torqued fasteners are ones that are close to their yield strength. That provides maximum clamping pressure, which means you get the strongest joint possible for that size fastener. Certain military and aerospace applications require this level of performance and over-torquing or under-torquing by as little as 20% can have catastrophic effects. Obviously, for consumer products, we try to build in larger margins of safety, so I won't comment on the specific question of lugnuts. As a new ME, though, it's worth being aware that dry versus lubricated fasteners can have a big impact on the performance of a joint. In fact, for one of our products, all of the grade-8 hardware we purchase has to go through ultrasonic cleaning to remove the manufacturing oil. The first LRIP of the product suffered a low throughput because technicians were breaking bolts, despite being torqued to the design specification. (We could have just change the torque spec's to account for the light oil, but we also found that the oil was gassing off at low pressure and condensing on nearby, LN2 cooled optics - so best just to remove it and stick with the dry torque values).

3) Follow up note regarding torque: you'll also find that torque (for the reasons we're discussing among others!) is not always a reliable indicator of joint pre-load or fastener tension. There are other methods of insuring a properly secured joint, including tension-indicating bolts, DTI washers, and strain-gauged bolts. Again, not really applicable for consumer products, but cool things to be aware of if you haven't already been exposed to them. The science of bolted joints is not as ... well, boring ... as it first appears!

In my opinion, a properly torqued wheel doesn't need anti-seize (and my personal experience has verified this) to be removable later. But I also think that using anti-seize isn't going to get you into trouble if you're torquing to the dry value. The issue may only present itself with over-torqued lug nuts as you say - if you're already at the limit by using an impact gun instead of a torque wrench and you then increase the load by 30% due to lubrication - well then you're likely to experience a failure.

The Metal Butcher
07-18-2019, 02:07 PM
Hey Metal Butcher - you're kind of new here, I seem to recall you're working on your Bachelor's in ME, right? I first joined this board back when I was still in high school and I totally get where you're coming from, especially these days where the internet abounds with ridiculous advice. We should all be skeptical of anecdotal evidence and seemingly unsupported claims. But what you're offering is anecdotes in favor of using anti-seize. Let me see if I can put some of this in context:

1) I have an advanced degree in experimental particle physics and - in a bizarre twist of fate - I now work as the lead system engineer across the entire Detection Technologies enterprise for an aerospace and defense contractor. I manage a large staff of mechanical, electrical, and software engineers. One of the most important skills I've developed is being able to sniff out BS! That said, Willy is one of the guys on this board that pretty much always passes the smell test. He gives really good, level-headed advice. I don't know what opinion you may have formed of him, but he is not a "Bubba" truck driver. He's torqued more lug nuts than you and I combined, so it's worth treating him with some respect. He has a lot of good experience to draw upon. But I agree with you that anecdotes alone are not valid arguments and it's always worth doing some independent research to verify or refute a claim.

2) Vehicles are sort of funny from an engineering perspective. Things that get regularly touched by mechanics are designed to be pretty forgiving. However, when you are pushing the engineering envelope, you will find that dry versus lubed (and even what type of lube) is *extremely* important. It does not just affect "massively over-torqued" fasteners. In fact, properly torqued fasteners are ones that are close to their yield strength. That provides maximum clamping pressure, which means you get the strongest joint possible for that size fastener. Certain military and aerospace applications require this level of performance and over-torquing or under-torquing by as little as 20% can have catastrophic effects. Obviously, for consumer products, we try to build in larger margins of safety, so I won't comment on the specific question of lugnuts. As a new ME, though, it's worth being aware that dry versus lubricated fasteners can have a big impact on the performance of a joint. In fact, for one of our products, all of the grade-8 hardware we purchase has to go through ultrasonic cleaning to remove the manufacturing oil. The first LRIP of the product suffered a low throughput because technicians were breaking bolts, despite being torqued to the design specification. (We could have just change the torque spec's to account for the light oil, but we also found that the oil was gassing off at low pressure and condensing on nearby, LN2 cooled optics - so best just to remove it and stick with the dry torque values).

3) Follow up note regarding torque: you'll also find that torque (for the reasons we're discussing among others!) is not always a reliable indicator of joint pre-load or fastener tension. There are other methods of insuring a properly secured joint, including tension-indicating bolts, DTI washers, and strain-gauged bolts. Again, not really applicable for consumer products, but cool things to be aware of if you haven't already been exposed to them. The science of bolted joints is not as ... well, boring ... as it first appears!

In my opinion, a properly torqued wheel doesn't need anti-seize (and my personal experience has verified this) to be removable later. But I also think that using anti-seize isn't going to get you into trouble if you're torquing to the dry value. The issue may only present itself with over-torqued lug nuts as you say - if you're already at the limit by using an impact gun instead of a torque wrench and you then increase the load by 30% due to lubrication - well then you're likely to experience a failure.

Fasttrack,
You are spot on.

1: I was a bit unfair to Willy, and I apologies, and he should probably keep on keeping on, as it has been working for him. I do lack the experience he has in the practical department. BTW, I wasn’t referring to Willy as “Joe Trucker”, but I’m sure we’ve all encountered a trucker like that. Willy sounds like he has a safety record to back up his claims.

2: You’re speaking my language now. Thanks. I’ve known about torque to yield bolts for some time, though I do find it interesting that one would want a bolt subject to dynamic stresses to already be at it’s yield point.

Thanks for the info,

MB

J Tiers
07-18-2019, 03:42 PM
Fasttrack:

Agree you make good sense.

Agree torque is actually a lousy way to achieve a clap force spec, ESPECIALLY with a lug nut of a nut-centering wheel because the conical centering means also has a wedging action and probably has more friction than the flat surface of a standard nut, or nut and washer, and because a coule dozen things likely affect the system and change the torque needed to reach a particular clamp force.

I hear the biz about proper torque resulting in a nut that can be removed..... What I actually SEE on dry-installed 1/2" lug nuts is that neither electric nor air impacts remove them, the standard wrench does not remove them, and it takes me jumping (180+ lb) on a longer wrench or wrench plus pipe to budge them. Some I can remove by hand, with a long wrench, estimated removal torque in the area of 150 to 250 foot-lb. Installation torque unknown, probably whatever the rattle wrench did. This with no evidence of rust on any mating surfaces of the nuts.

Grade 8 typical torque is 80-90 ft-lb depending on whether it is a coarse or fine thread, per "Bolt Depot". https://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-information/bolts/US-Recommended-Torque.aspx

Now, the Fastenal site shows a totally different set of number.... for a 1/2" fine thread grade 8, their table shows 90 ft-lb for LUBRICATED, and 120 ft-lb for dry, using their calculator... https://www.fastenal.com/en/83/torque-calculator

Here is another, and they get into a fuzzy area of "slightly lubricated" (like sorta pregnant?) vs actually lubricated, and maybe "liberally lubricated" (is there a "socialist" lube type?)... The term is not defined well, but they spec 30% reduction for "slightly" lubed and up to 45% for "lubricated".... https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/torque-lubrication-effects-d_1693.html

Bit of a difference , that..... If the eggheads can't figure it out consistently, don't expect the tire joint Bubbas to do better. (They won't, and don't)

Obviously, NONE of the tire places I have been to in several states have properly torqued the lug nut, or they would be removable without drama. Makes sense, since "everyone knows" that lug nuts need to be "very tight" or they might come off.....

"Anecdotal" evidence, i.e. 50 or so years of experience with nut-centering lug nuts on 7 or so vehicles, indicates that lubed threads cinch down well with sensible torque, do not loosen, do not gall, and can be removed. Nuts that are dry installed by tire joints look galled, do not come off without a BFH or similar, and appear to be installed with an impact wrench.... at least I have witnessed that being done at every tire joint I have actually watched.

So, I lube threads, torque about 25% lower, based just on what seems reasonable (I have not seen lug nut torque specs for ANY of my vehicles) and not going quite that far....

If you want to use engine oil, fine.... I have, because I don't always have the never-seez, but I always have an engine which has oil.

PStechPaul
07-18-2019, 05:59 PM
You couldn't find your vehicles in the links I provided in post #52? 100 lb-ft is probably safe for most vehicles, and is probably about what I can obtain by moderate brute force with a four point lug wrench. Most specs are about 75-125 lb-ft.

A grade 8 bolt has a minimum yield strength of 130,000 PSI and proof load of 120,000 PSI, which equates to clamping force of about 22,000 pounds for lubricated K factor of 0.16. This equates to a torque of 125 lb-ft, so my "armstrong" torque wrench should be safe, even with lube. Buggered and galled threads probably require even more torque for the same clamping force.

Ridgerunner
07-18-2019, 06:38 PM
The guy that inspects my vehicles uses a clicker torque wrench when he puts the wheels back on. However, I never see him change the settings so the wheels are just getting some average setting instead of the vehicle specific one.
There was a tire shop around here that used torque sticks (https://www.amazon.com/torque-sticks/s?k=torque+sticks) but they are long gone. Any good shop should use them if you can find one.

DICKEYBIRD
07-18-2019, 06:46 PM
I thought Lug Nuts® was a new high-fiber cereal. (Bada-bump, ching.)

PStechPaul
07-18-2019, 06:54 PM
High iron content, and lots of roughage :rolleyes:

J Tiers
07-18-2019, 07:56 PM
High iron content, and lots of roughage :rolleyes:

Actually, probably very LOW on roughage..... remember they are "highly refined".......

Willy
07-18-2019, 11:59 PM
Wow, I go away for a day and lo and behold this thread has seen a lot of activity since my last reply, I had thought it had died.

Metal Butcher, you don't owe me an apology, but thank you never the less. Hey it's the internet and when we see something we don't agree with often times it's just a knee-jerk reaction, right or wrong. However I do want to offer you kudos for questioning my reasoning and my perspective on the use of lubes as it pertains to wheel mounting hardware. Good for you! That's how we learn, by questioning staements and sharing information.

First let me say that I'm not picking on anti-seize products or lubes in general as it pertains to using it on wheel mounting hardware. As I mentioned before I've used it and it works great, and as long as you and only you will every service that assembly and know how to torque them properly given that the recommended torque specs are now only a guide, fine have at her. Hey the stuff works great and wheels don't magically fall off with it's use when used properly.

But looking at the replies posted here I see this as a shinning example of what I am trying to get across, the lack of a standard accepted practice that is adhered to and enforced. Much like electrical codes and building codes.
We all know that it's a convoluted mess out there already, in regards to tire shops and quality work is difficult to find, but not impossible.
However the standard is clean and dry as I've stated already. But now you've got one guy using grease, another using Marvel Mystery Oil, and another using anti seize and god only knows what else. Not a big deal so much on your own car...maybe, maybe not. Do ya feel lucky?

But what about the 30-140,000 lbs truck carry hazards goods, not that a 140,000 lb. B-train of lumber isn't hazardous either. Best case scenario is he puts it in the ditch causing an environmental mess costing upwards of a million bucks to clean up. Although depending on when and how the event unfolds, the driver could die, the offending wheel could take out mom and the kids in the mini van coming at it in the opposing lane, or maybe depending on which wheel went astray, he could just take out a large number of folks minding their own business on the sidewalk. These are the things that go through my mind when I sign off on a truck after doing my pre-trip.

The large number of wheel-off incidents that I refereed to previously in the early to mid 90's, are in my estimation a result of an industry that was not up to the task. Remember that it was probably mid 80's that the "just in time" method of inventory management became popular. No more walking into a store and asking if they had an item in their warehouse that wasn't on the shelf. The warehouse was now the highway, and the trucks on it. This placed a demand on the transportation industry that it could not meet at the quality levels and pace that it was accustomed to. Bad drivers, substandard maintenance are the result of an industry cutting it's own throat in order to gain contracts with very tight deadlines and slim profit margins. Unfortunately this continues to this day.
Although everyone has started to realize that change needs to take place as standards for minimum entry level training needs to be enacted, on all levels. This last point has been way overdue.

Also about this time the use of anti-seize became increasingly popular due to it lasting in environments that would leave other products blushing. A hundred thousand miles of salt spray, hot water chemical pressure washings and unlike oil or grease, it was still there. This allowed tired and worn out wheel mounting hardware to remain in service longer. Did I mention that just like tires, brake shoes and wiper blades, wheel mounting hardware has a finite lifespan? It doesn't last forever on commercial trucks folks.
Progressive companies and owner operators will automatically replace all wheel mounting hardware when tires are replaced, not a cheap policy, but in the long term it's money in the bank. Quality never comes easily or cheaply.

In regards to my anecdotal references, I did leave a few citations previously, I think.:) However after dealing with this as intensely as I have for as long as I have, I'd bet my life on it. I've seen a lot of changes in this industry since I got into it in '72. Although official retired now for the last five years I still do a bit here and there for friends and associates that want a long weekend so not out of the ballgame yet.

A few citations below for clean and dry on just about anything used commercially. I don't have links as this is stuff I have on file but feel free to look them up as they are available online.

From the American Trucking Association's Technology and Maintenance Council's Recommended Practices Manual, look up sec. RP656.



! WARNING : Do not apply anti-seize compound to
threads during maintenance. Many of these com
pounds are constructed of inconsistent material that
could signifcantly alter the designed torque-tension
relationship between the mating fasteners.

Webb Wheel Torque Specifications:

All recommended torque ratings are listed in bold red letters as DRY

Accuride Wheels Safety and Service Manual:

All stud piloted Budd wheels and cast spoke Dayton rims DRY

Hub piloted wheels, DRY when using new hardware, a drop or two of 30w oil to be applied to the area between the wheel nut and it's captive flange only on used flanged nuts.

Some wheel manufactures will also state to apply a drop or two on the first 2 or 3 threads of used hardware for hub piloted wheels only because this portion has usually been subject to abrasion and slight corrosion.
I could post Alcoa's recommendation but it doesn't matter how many I post they are all the same, as in this is the recommended process.

I will leave however by leaving a link to a good read and insight on wheel-offs.

Why Do Wheels Come Off Trucks? (https://www.truckinginfo.com/153237/why-do-wheels-come-off-trucks)


Please excuse the typos as I'm sure I left a few, I always do.:o Been a very long day and I'm too pooped to proof read.
Good thing too as otherwise this post would be three times longer. LOL