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RB211
07-12-2019, 08:15 PM
The rental place tried to give me a standard tandem axle trailer with no lift or tilt function. Luckily they had a 6x10 drop lift trailer they gave to me for the same price.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190713/b3f34a895636a44953cf2fd353c59018.jpg

Bought 150$ worth of straps from rural King
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190713/d9bd6180b20bd7ae92f50ea2d216d904.jpg
And the 4x6 pallet assembled to Brian's directions.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190713/f159cb6d53bc85d944e7597dc0c58acd.jpg


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RB211
07-12-2019, 08:21 PM
Does anyone know the footprint of a KO Lee S718 surface grinder, and what's involved with removing the table? Can one lift the table by hand or should I bring my engine hoist? Does the base have screw holes?
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190713/bf4628e3c0926f6487c0c9b290d6f5ff.jpg

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Glug
07-12-2019, 08:49 PM
Nice trailer!

Will those flat strap ends fit the anchors on the trailer? Is there room in each anchor for multiple straps to attach? Some trailer anchors are pretty small.

I have always bought the style, figuring they are more versatile. They can also be connected together, where I don't think the flat style can?

Also, if you ever use an enclosed truck with e-track, I don't think the wide style will be able to use the adapters.

https://www.ruralking.com/erickson-4000-lb-e-track-tie-off-ring-59131

RB211
07-12-2019, 08:53 PM
Nice trailer!

Will those flat strap ends fit the anchors on the trailer? Is there room in each anchor for multiple straps to attach? Some trailer anchors are pretty small.

I have always bought the style, figuring they are more versatile. They can also be connected together, where I don't think the flat style can?

Also, if you ever use an enclosed truck with e-track, I don't think the wide style will be able to use the adapters.

https://www.ruralking.com/erickson-4000-lb-e-track-tie-off-ring-59131Good news is that the trailer is at my house right now and I can do some dry fitting to see what will jive and not jive

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Sparky_NY
07-12-2019, 09:01 PM
Cool, seems you are all set AND the straps, pallet and experience will come in handy for the next auction in a week or two LOL

RB211
07-12-2019, 09:07 PM
Cool, seems you are all set AND the straps, pallet and experience will come in handy for the next auction in a week or two LOLRented a Uhaul F150 xl today, I think the Prius needs to go, I need a nice pickup truck in my life. Would make doing this sort of thing much easier and cheaper.

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Sparky_NY
07-12-2019, 09:14 PM
So when is D day?

JoeLee
07-12-2019, 09:45 PM
The foot print is 23" wide x 21" front to back. Approx weight is 1100 Lbs.

The table lifts off, nothing holding it down. If it has the hydraulic feed on the table make sure to unscrew the knob on the right side of the table and push the cylinder rod back a couple inches. If you try to lift the table with the rod connected...... well, you know what is going to happen.

The base has a hole in each corner inside. Great for bolting down to a pallet.

The table is quite heavy even with out the chuck mounted.
I would remove it with an engine hoist or chain fall if you can so you don't ding up the ways.

JL...............

Tundra Twin Track
07-12-2019, 11:05 PM
I allways take a assortment of Lagbolts and some short 2x6 with a lot of screws to rest tight to whatever machine your hauling and put lots of screws into the pallet.

RB211
07-13-2019, 12:07 AM
So when is D day?
Monday morning

The foot print is 23" wide x 21" front to back. Approx weight is 1100 Lbs.

The table lifts off, nothing holding it down. If it has the hydraulic feed on the table make sure to unscrew the knob on the right side of the table and push the cylinder rod back a couple inches. If you try to lift the table with the rod connected...... well, you know what is going to happen.

The base has a hole in each corner inside. Great for bolting down to a pallet.

The table is quite heavy even with out the chuck mounted.
I would remove it with an engine hoist or chain fall if you can so you don't ding up the ways.

JL...............
5/8 bolts? 1/2" bolts? If I make hook welded to a plate, is that magnet strong enough to lift the table? On second thought, don't want to risk it... Thank you for the dimensions, and other information.

I allways take a assortment of Lagbolts and some short 2x6 with a lot of screws to rest tight to whatever machine your hauling and put lots of screws into the pallet.
I have an assortment of 5/8 Iag bolts for the 10EE, but I need to still prepare for the surface grinder.
What's the minimum pallet size or spacing for pallet jack forks?

nickel-city-fab
07-13-2019, 07:57 AM
Monday morning

What's the minimum pallet size or spacing for pallet jack forks?

pallets are around 4-ft square, the forks will be between 3 ft and 4 ft spread.

Glug
07-13-2019, 08:52 AM
pallets are around 4-ft square, the forks will be between 3 ft and 4 ft spread.

I believe my Dayton is typical. You will want 48" long forks, which is standard.

Harbor Freight sells them. Don't know how good they are. I could not find any plastic on my Dayton (except on the front wheels). I also saw them for sale at Menards recently, similar price to HF but no 20% coupons. I saw a pretty decent looking one for $159 at a store in Cali, via google shopping. It took me quite a while to find a really good deal on a used one ($25 with minor repair needed to ball and spring detent).

Some places charge too much for pallet jack rental. I'd rather buy a good used one then a junky new one.

MAX FORK WIDTH: 27"
BETWEEN FORKS: 14 3/8"
FORK LENGTH: 48"
Fork ht lowered 3"
Fork ht raised 7.75"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pallet_jack

Typical:

The dimension between the outer edges of the forks: Available as 20" (51.4 cm) and 27" (68.6 cm) Fork Length: Available as 36" (91.4 cm), 42" (106.7 cm), 48" (122 cm) Lowered Height: 2.9" (7.5 cm) Raised Height: At least 7.5" (19.1), but some will raise higher.

A.K. Boomer
07-13-2019, 08:53 AM
That's a serious looking trailer - and also shopping cart lol

good luck with the move, slow-motion allows for sound thinking when moving heavy stuff.

Glug
07-13-2019, 09:24 AM
slow-motion allows for sound thinking when moving heavy stuff.

Yeah, but 95F temps and rain and thunder... not so much! Stuff like that can really mess up your thinking. We haven't talked on the forum about rain mitigation during hours of highway driving, but it is a big factor in this move that has been discussed offline. It would not be so bad without straps in the way.

A time lapse video of the load and rigging process would be great.

JoeLee
07-13-2019, 10:52 AM
RB, I take it back, my KO Lee S718 does not have holes in the corners of the base. I had a S718 at one time that did have holes, but it was a slightly different base.
There were a couple different cast iron bases for that model.

But not a problem, cut a couple 2 x 4's to fit across the inside of the base, there is like an 1 1/2" ledge all the way around, put a spacer under the center of the 2x and bolt it through the pallet. Basically clamping it down.

As far as the removing the table the way you suggested??? If your plate covers the entire surface of the chuck and is flat so it makes full contact, it would probably hold, BUT I WOULDN'T CHANCE IT.
I've always used nylon slings. I made a bar, something like this to remove tables from machines. Look at "spreader beams" https://www.google.com/search?biw=1600&bih=745&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=wPApXbTrHMmO9PwPpLu46A0&q=spreader+beam

JL...............

https://www.mazzellacompanies.com/Portals/0/EasyDNNNews/thumbs/49/265main-below-the-hook-lifting-beams.jpg

Peter.
07-13-2019, 11:07 AM
BTW make sure you lock the tailstock before lifting the 10ee. I nearly lost mine off the back pulling it up onto the trailer.

plastikosmd
07-13-2019, 11:25 AM
I had one of these trailers for years. Handy

Abene coming out on skids

https://i.postimg.cc/gJsK9v2f/C4310-E66-C4-B8-4-F8-C-900-D-9894-EB6948-FE.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

RB211
07-13-2019, 01:27 PM
RB, I take it back, my KO Lee S718 does not have holes in the corners of the base. I had a S718 at one time that did have holes, but it was a slightly different base.
There were a couple different cast iron bases for that model.

But not a problem, cut a couple 2 x 4's to fit across the inside of the base, there is like an 1 1/2" ledge all the way around, put a spacer under the center of the 2x and bolt it through the pallet. Basically clamping it down.

As far as the removing the table the way you suggested??? If your plate covers the entire surface of the chuck and is flat so it makes full contact, it would probably hold, BUT I WOULDN'T CHANCE IT.
I've always used nylon slings. I made a bar, something like this to remove tables from machines. Look at "spreader beams" https://www.google.com/search?biw=1600&bih=745&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=wPApXbTrHMmO9PwPpLu46A0&q=spreader+beam

JL...............

https://www.mazzellacompanies.com/Portals/0/EasyDNNNews/thumbs/49/265main-below-the-hook-lifting-beams.jpgI have a load balancer that I can use with the hoist. Reason I am asking about the base footprint and the size of the forks is that the trailer is 6x10, the 10EE pallet is 4x6, want to go with a pallet for the SG that is smaller than 4x4.
Also going to go find a pop-up tent in case I need to prep outside. The lathe and SG are located at a Nuclear Research Lab. Don't think I can take all day..

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Peter.
07-13-2019, 02:04 PM
If you need the actual footprint dims of the lathe they are given here:

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/monarch-lathes/ee-footprint-measurements-needed-please-260001

Glug
07-13-2019, 02:26 PM
The lathe and SG are located at a Nuclear Research Lab.

I believe it is spelled Nucular.

754
07-13-2019, 02:28 PM
Not out if a production shop .. that might just be very fine equipment.
Do you have a helper, that has any experience, be a big plus.

JRouche
07-13-2019, 04:28 PM
This is gonna be fun! For us, you? Not so much, till they are landed. Do you have a photographer handy, makes it better for us ;)

Exciting day for you may friend. I hope all goes well. J

RB211
07-13-2019, 07:04 PM
I believe it is spelled Nucular.I'm usually pretty good at spelling, that is embarrassing.

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RB211
07-13-2019, 07:11 PM
Not out if a production shop .. that might just be very fine equipment.
Do you have a helper, that has any experience, be a big plus.
I have no local friends. Was used in a research environment, which gives me a lot of hope.


This is gonna be fun! For us, you? Not so much, till they are landed. Do you have a photographer handy, makes it better for us ;)

Exciting day for you may friend. I hope all goes well. J

My wife is not enjoying it, and I am certainly not enjoying the prep for it. However, after it is all said and done, I won't buy another machine any other way. No more big purchases for a while, next one will be a F150. I need a truck in my life.

Today I bought a cordless tigersaw, 10x10 pop up tent, and exchanged my straps for the hook type which works better with the trailer. Still have to build the pallet for the SG. My wife had me do stuff with the family which caused delays in the prep.

RB211
07-13-2019, 07:23 PM
Oh yeh, also bought a pallet jack. Unloading it from the van, the handle clobbered me pretty good in the head. No blood so it's ok. That's what my four year old says anyhow.
Pick up the Uhaul pickup again tomorrow morning for final prep day. Will leave early Monday to get there by 10am. Can't wait for all the unknowns to no longer be unknowns. That's what really sucks about doing this.

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Richard P Wilson
07-13-2019, 07:37 PM
I believe it is spelled Nucular.

Is that how you spell it in the US? Over here its nuclear.

wierdscience
07-13-2019, 10:15 PM
My wife had me do stuff with the family which caused delays in the prep.

Well,on the bright side,one day the kids will be old enough to help Dad move machine tools around.

Lew Hartswick
07-13-2019, 10:39 PM
Is that how you spell it in the US? Over here its nuclear.
Yes but you spell color funny too. :-)
...lew...

Joel
07-13-2019, 10:58 PM
Am I missing something? The US spells nuclear 'nuclear' (and as far as I know, so does every English speaker). People frequently mispronounce it as nucular, and perhaps try to spell it phonetically.

Peter.
07-14-2019, 05:36 AM
Nucular isn't a word (yet), but might soon be due to it's regular mis-use in lieu of the correct word, nuclear.

RB211
07-14-2019, 08:02 AM
Maybe it's a trait shared by both machinists and codershttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190714/029264c6323f6334e02fddff972c7a51.jpg

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Ringo
07-14-2019, 08:59 AM
Do you have a johnson bar and machinery skates, too?
I find that wooden wedges are useful too

lynnl
07-14-2019, 09:19 AM
Nucular isn't a word (yet), but might soon be due to it's regular mis-use in lieu of the correct word, nuclear.

Yes. And all the more quickly now that we have the internet, which lets ignorance spread like wildfire! :D

SLK001
07-14-2019, 09:33 AM
Get one of these nets for each piece of machinery. Also get yourself some high-performance stretch wrap. The nets help minimize the wind-wiping of the tarps you put over the equipment as you drive. The wiping of the tarps can tear them apart quite easily. I would first wrap the equipment tightly (and thoroughly) in plastic stretch wrap, then cover with a tarp, then put the net over them.

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=5609&d=1563110485


http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=5610&d=1563111077

RB211
07-14-2019, 10:53 AM
I have stretch wrap, stretchy coord, tarps that will have the stretch wrap over it to prevent their self destruction, and a bunch of 4x4 cutoffs that I will use as wedges. No prybars or skates, they are using a telehandler to lift the machines onto my pallets. At home I have a gantry crane and pallet truck. Preparing for unknowns has already cost as much as the surface grinder. At least next time I do this it will be much easier and cheaper.

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Toolguy
07-14-2019, 11:36 AM
Maybe it's a trait shared by both machinists and codershttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190714/029264c6323f6334e02fddff972c7a51.jpg

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This is known in office lingo as "Resting Bitchy Face". When you are just in normal mode, that's what you look like. Machinists look like that at work because of all the BS they have to put up with from upper management. In the office, it's usually the look on the cute secretary you wanted to ask out.

larry_g
07-14-2019, 11:39 AM
Since you have your trailer on hand measure and cut a couple of 2x's to span the width of the trailer inside. Once you have the machine/pallet loaded lag the 2x's to the top of the pallet so they span the trailer and prevent any side movement. Another way is to just drop cribbing between the side of the pallet and the trailer side. Keeping the bottom of the skid/machine from moving in the trailer is just as important as strapping the top to prevent tipping.

lg
no neat sig line

Glug
07-14-2019, 11:41 AM
Oh yeh, also bought a pallet jack. Unloading it from the van, the handle clobbered me pretty good in the head. .... Can't wait for all the unknowns to no longer be unknowns. That's what really sucks about doing this.

Bummer about the head strike. It seems like I would be ahead a bit if I wore a light bike helmet while rigging machines.. seriously (arguably the standard is a hardhat, but a bike helmet is lighter and cooler). Especially once you have the machine straps attached, and are duckwalking around the machine, wrapping, ducking under, etc.. There are just chances for conks on the head. Wear a hat for sure, to take the sting out of any hits and reduce the risk of cuts - if you aren't already wearing one for the sun and sweat. Maybe also a towel to cover the seat of your vehicle.

Maybe add some knee pads to the kit. You're probably going to be on your knees a fair bit, and if that isn't bad enough, imagine the diamond plate. Of course there are also the vast number of trip hazzards when rigging, a reason to wear good boots. They are essential to reduce the risk of ankle sprains, etc.

Your trailer is going to be pretty crowded. I'd probably do some approximate to scale sketches on how to route the straps. And as you already mentioned, confirm the anchors have room.

Another thought, since you're hauling two items and that is a much greater rigging challenge.. Don't forget about potentially using dunnage on the floor of the trailer. That'd be 2x4's or whatever arranged to prevent pallets from sliding on the deck. That might be spacers between your pallets, or between the pallets and the walls. Not essential, but something to consider. I suppose the SG pallet might even butt against the M pallet.

Have you done any sketches to estimate the load balance and tongue weight? If they were forking it on to the trailer from the end, it would normally go on the trailer tailstock first. That just might work out with the 1000 lbs of grinder up front.

It's a good thing you'll have a pickup for hauling extra stuff - with the requisite tarps to protect from rain. Machine covers, grinder table, misc totes of tools, padding to protect the monarch access covers (which are typically pretty filthy on the inside).. Then there is the security factor for tools and stuff when you make any stops or leave it unattended. That was a big concern when I did the solo Pacemaker pickup in a really bad area, with a 26' open flat bed and a tiny cab.

RB211
07-14-2019, 11:45 AM
Checklist so far...
Cordless Drill
Cordless Tigersaw
Wood screws
Bits for screws
Socket wrenches
Crescent wrenches
Drill bits for bolts/lag screws
Assortment of bolts/washers/nuts/lag screws
Utility knife
Tape
Stretch coord
Stretch wrap(big roll and small roller)
Tarps
Slings
Pallet jack
Engine hoist
Load leveler??
Paperwork
Cell phone/charger
WD40
Anti rust spray
Apron
Drill charger/inverter.
Scrap wood

Anything else?

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RB211
07-14-2019, 11:49 AM
Since you have your trailer on hand measure and cut a couple of 2x's to span the width of the trailer inside. Once you have the machine/pallet loaded lag the 2x's to the top of the pallet so they span the trailer and prevent any side movement. Another way is to just drop cribbing between the side of the pallet and the trailer side. Keeping the bottom of the skid/machine from moving in the trailer is just as important as strapping the top to prevent tipping.

lg
no neat sig lineOoohh, I definitely like that idea, going to buy some 2x4's

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Glug
07-14-2019, 12:01 PM
Keeping the bottom of the skid/machine from moving in the trailer is just as important as strapping the top to prevent tipping.

That's a good point. Ideally the straps don't merely go over the load. They will be looped around the bed crossmembers and then both ends of the strap will go back to the same trailer anchor. That ends up using two straps where some would use only one. But sometimes with the 10ee you end up looping the straps over the base. This narrow trailer should result in narrow strap angles and good stability.

The ELSR rod on the round dial 10ee is very high up in relation to the bed. I am concerned it might create clearance problems for straps over the bed. The trailer is narrow, so maybe the straps can go under the rod. Removing the rod may be very difficult (involving tapered pins, etc). Also, I see the ELSR rod handle sticks out in a way that will catch on the covering. It looks like that can be easily loosened and rotated out of the way.

RB211
07-14-2019, 12:39 PM
I don't even know what the ELSR thing is, is it a desirable option? Electronic leadscrew Reverse? Is it for doing threading?
Some pics of the trailer. It's 6x10, but that is being optimistic. It's 10ft at the very end of the tapered ramp which means I need to bring some wood wedges to screw into the pallet for support. Also, it's 6ft wide not including the anchors which reduce it to 67 inches about. Good thing I made the surface grinder pallet 3x3'. Won't bring the pallet truck as they have one, but must bring the hoist(it folds up) to lift the SG table off.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190714/6814cf0e073bf3587ef35dbc22ec906a.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190714/d9825a6226704a36bebca3e76dd5feda.jpg

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RB211
07-14-2019, 12:42 PM
Also looks like the wheels cover 90% of the bed, so load balancing is probably not a concern, the pickup and trailer are a class 4, 1000lb tongue weight rating.

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QSIMDO
07-14-2019, 01:04 PM
Checklist so far...
Cordless Drill
Cordless Tigersaw
Wood screws
Bits for screws
Socket wrenches
Crescent wrenches
Drill bits for bolts/lag screws
Assortment of bolts/washers/nuts/lag screws
Utility knife
Tape
Stretch coord
Stretch wrap(big roll and small roller)
Tarps
Slings
Pallet jack
Engine hoist
Load leveler??
Paperwork
Cell phone/charger
WD40
Anti rust spray
Apron
Drill charger/inverter.
Scrap wood

Anything else?

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I'm sticking with hire (reputable) insured, experienced, equipped, beefy rigger when moving equipment you or 2 guys can't pick up & carry...GAF what anyone says.

Ringo
07-14-2019, 01:06 PM
When I moved my mill, I bolted it to a pallet, (off its stand) then loaded pallet/mill as one unit.
I had the dimensions prior, so I scrounged some small pallet to act like cribbing to keep the mill's pallet from moving around in the truck.
the mill's metal stand made up part of the cribbing.
It's not a bridgeport, its a 6x26 knee.
It turned out to be a nasty rainy day for the move, and I stripped handles, vise, light, collet holder, etc., off the machine, wrapped it in plastic, then wrapped with the roll shrink wrap like you got above.
It rode just fine, and didnt get wet.

nickel-city-fab
07-14-2019, 01:08 PM
Yeah, you'll be ok with that pickup and trailer and all the prep.... just hope and pray the people with forklifts and telehandler know what they are doing.

Glug
07-14-2019, 01:21 PM
I don't even know what the ELSR thing is, is it a desirable option? Electronic leadscrew Reverse? Is it for doing threading?

It is a great option. I'm not sure of the functions on the round dial machines (and some machines had extra options). it is that upper most rod. You can position the stop collars on it and they will trip the feed to stop. I believe you'll be able to flip the attached handle and reverse the feed, while the spindle continues.

Their pallet jack is probably fine. Gotta watch out for clunkers.

I wonder, could they use the telematic to lift the table off and set it in the truck? I've never driven one of those but my impression is that the hydraulics can be quite abrupt - not like a nice fork truck.

Be sure it isn't a situation where the lathe needs to be hoisted and they only have chain or a tiny noodle strap. To balance the 10ee for lifting it is often necessary to put a piece of wood under the bed for looping the sling because the crossmember lift point cannot be balanced. I have learned the hard way that depending on "professionals" to do their portion of the rigging correctly is often folly.

You could always take some length off the 10ee skid. I did not see the come-a-long on your list. It's good to have in case you need to move skids around on the trailer, etc.

J Tiers
07-14-2019, 01:49 PM
With that machine that you are gonna go get, you should find that anything you do on a lathe will be a LOT easier. They "just plain work"... Also, it's a 10", but I think they actually swing about 11.5". There is not much nicer than a 10EE, so just use it and don't change anything about it until you have used it a year.


Am I missing something? The US spells nuclear 'nuclear' (and as far as I know, so does every English speaker). People frequently mispronounce it as nucular, and perhaps try to spell it phonetically.

Yep, you did not factor in 'murricans..... they have their own "ways and says". Even "W" seemed to always say "nucular", I dunno what the current guy says....

Joel
07-14-2019, 01:57 PM
The only additional advice I have to add is, right before every major step such as lifting, moving or driving off (especially if you are in a hurry), is to STOP and take a moment to re-check and re-think everything. Take a short break, clear your mind a bit, and do a final check to ensure you haven't overlooked something. I consider this the last step, and it can (and eventually will) really save your bacon. Most catastrophic mistakes are caused by minor details overlooked in haste.

shampine1
07-14-2019, 02:08 PM
Speaking from having rigged and run lifts up to 80 tons... Joel is giving you good advice! Step back,.walk around it, make sure everyone involved knows their job, where to stand, where to run, and what to do if it goes wrong (get out.of the way!). It feels a little silly on small stuff, and not at all silly on big stuff. Good practices save lives!

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Glug
07-14-2019, 02:33 PM
Step back,.walk around it, make sure everyone involved knows their job, where to stand, where to run, and what to do if it goes wrong (get out.of the way!).

I tried to tell these professionals, who were trying to drag 10K with a 4K fork truck, but they would not listen. IDs obscured to protect the oh so very guilty. Might as well just build a big "step" bumper on the back.



https://www.use.com/images/s_2/d892755298833720e6cd.jpg

RB211
07-14-2019, 03:04 PM
I'm sticking with hire (reputable) insured, experienced, equipped, beefy rigger when moving equipment you or 2 guys can't pick up & carry...GAF what anyone says.If this was a short drive, sure. Going to spend a good 6 to 8 hours on the road.

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RB211
07-14-2019, 03:10 PM
Ok, so the engine hoist is not going. The telehandler will have to assist in lifting the table off the surface grinder... https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190714/864bf96604e5f19da47e4285f7175a44.jpg
Did I mention that no one is going with me to help?

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754
07-14-2019, 03:27 PM
Is a telehandler like a Zoom boom ?
Do you have a winch, tirfor jack, or come along or Jack all ? Plus chain or cables.
Once they are on the Pallets , the above should pull it onto trailer. .

Depending where you are, maybe a member can help you., location ?

RB211
07-14-2019, 03:41 PM
Is a telehandler like a Zoom boom ?
Do you have a winch, tirfor jack, or come along or Jack all ? Plus chain or cables.
Once they are on the Pallets , the above should pull it onto trailer. .

Depending where you are, maybe a member can help you., location ?
Spring Hill, FL. 34610
They have pallet jacks there, they said they can load the items onto the trailer.

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Glug
07-14-2019, 03:51 PM
Ok, so the engine hoist is not going. The telehandler will have to assist in lifting the table off the surface grinder...

It's good you're finding this stuff out now.

Searches suggest the table is about 100 lbs.

I would probably take some length off the lathe skid, at least one 2x6. Maybe two. Extra length on the tailstock end is not doing anything. Though the kinematic mounting pad on that end isn't very large, so you want it to make full use of the 2x6. On the headstock end you can mostly see from the side (and photos I sent) where the pads are. If there is going to be extra skid sticking out, it should be on the headstock end - to reduce the tendency to tip length wise, tailstock over headstock, if moved on an incline.

I would plan on removing the bulky power cable from the lathe. Hopefully it is just opening the box and disconnecting the wires.

Maybe there is a Plan B - grinder goes in back of the pickup? Strapping stuff down in a pickup can be tricky, especially if you can't scratch it. Unloading could be sliding down a pair of 2x8's. Or maybe with your gantry? Alternative would be to have someone at a local business transfer it from the truck to trailer with a fork truck.

Are you sure you don't have room for the DoAll saw? ;)

RB211
07-14-2019, 04:13 PM
New tool for the job
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190714/871b3a0f35bef4c2645dcc5fd63f221b.jpg

Enough scrap wood?
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190714/10f42c445ca16be987d0acb17bea04cc.jpg

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metalmagpie
07-14-2019, 04:27 PM
The foot print is 23" wide x 21" front to back. Approx weight is 1100 Lbs.

The table lifts off, nothing holding it down. If it has the hydraulic feed on the table make sure to unscrew the knob on the right side of the table and push the cylinder rod back a couple inches. If you try to lift the table with the rod connected...... well, you know what is going to happen.

The base has a hole in each corner inside. Great for bolting down to a pallet.

The table is quite heavy even with out the chuck mounted.
I would remove it with an engine hoist or chain fall if you can so you don't ding up the ways.

JL...............

Two guys can lift it off easily. But be sure to lay down a couple 2x4s to set the table down on. The bottom of the table is precision scraped, handle with extreme care.

KOL's method to lift a 612 with a hook is to slide a piece of 1/2" plate under the base of the machine but above the sheet metal base. Then sling each end to the hook.

metalmagpie

RB211
07-14-2019, 04:43 PM
Life saver this thing ishttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190714/b76b955509512175964bc8e7a6fb6921.jpg

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Ringo
07-14-2019, 04:44 PM
Spring Hill, FL?
Where you going with it? up I-95 corridor?
I'm in Savannah, Ga

Glug
07-14-2019, 04:56 PM
Life saver this thing is

RB211's new portable man-cave.

Glug
07-14-2019, 05:01 PM
It sounds like the table should minimally be put on a piece of plywood (or a frame) and held in place by screwed wood blocks. Scrap lumber on the bottom to lift it off the truck bed. Some kind of water and condensation protection.

Don't forget to add to your list - "Rest spindle arm on wood block" so it doesn't bounce on the leadscrew.

Baz
07-14-2019, 05:12 PM
map for when the GPS suddenly dies or you find the coordinates lead you to the wrong side of a 6 lane highway.
Sandwiches.
Champagne (to be left at home for when you return).

RB211
07-14-2019, 05:22 PM
Spring Hill, FL?
Where you going with it? up I-95 corridor?
I'm in Savannah, GaFSU

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RB211
07-14-2019, 05:24 PM
It sounds like the table should minimally be put on a piece of plywood (or a frame) and held in place by screwed wood blocks. Scrap lumber on the bottom to lift it off the truck bed. Some kind of water and condensation protection.

Don't forget to add to your list - "Rest spindle arm on wood block" so it doesn't bounce on the leadscrew.Good to know, on the surface grinder right?

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Ringo
07-14-2019, 06:22 PM
I'd be tempted to put one machine in the truck, and, the other on the trailer.
with both machines on trailer, the truck might be light for the total trailer weight.

Glug
07-14-2019, 07:13 PM
Good to know, on the surface grinder right?

Yes. On the lathe you can lock the carriage. The bolt is on the top right side of the apron.

Found this thread with some good pics of the table underside. Not much other useful info except that the guy makes the point that the ends of the table underside were rusty from disuse and that it is fortunate he did not move the table, causing damage. So don't move it.

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=334140&page=11

RB211
07-14-2019, 07:44 PM
I'd be tempted to put one machine in the truck, and, the other on the trailer.
with both machines on trailer, the truck might be light for the total trailer weight.Trailer has electric brakes from what I can tell. If it's rated for 1000 lbs tongue weight and I put 1000 lbs in the bed, and however much is on that trailer, it'll be way over. I couldn't physically pick up the tongue with it empty. Even tried getting my dolly under the trailer Jack and couldn't move it with that.

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Ringo
07-14-2019, 08:05 PM
Gosh, if the trailer is 2500lbs itself, lathe 3000, grinder 1500, 500lbs of cribbing/pallets, you going north of 7000lbs with a F150.
What the gross weight the truck rated at?

Y'know it would be interesting to see the weight of the machines.
you can buy a weight ticket at a truck-stop with semi-truck scales.
I weighed my boat and it was $15, and the kicker is that 1 re-weigh is included, so I weighed my rig with and without the boat, I got 2 printouts with weight.

RB211
07-14-2019, 08:09 PM
Gosh, if the trailer is 2500lbs itself, lathe 3000, grinder 1500, 500lbs of cribbing/pallets, you going north of 7000lbs with a F150.
What the gross weight the truck rated at?8000 lbs towing capacity so I've been told. It's not like I'm one not to push things a little.

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mattthemuppet
07-14-2019, 10:17 PM
Good luck with the big day tomorrow! Stay safe :)

RB211
07-14-2019, 10:32 PM
Good luck with the big day tomorrow! Stay safe :)Thank you, just finished packing items based on the check list. Time for bed, leaving by 5am.

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PStechPaul
07-15-2019, 12:47 AM
Don't forget plenty of water to stay hydrated, and a first aid kit, just in case. And make sure you have your camera ready! Good luck!

Glug
07-15-2019, 08:57 AM
Don't forget plenty of water to stay hydrated, and a first aid kit, just in case. And make sure you have your camera ready! Good luck!

Good point about the first aid kit, with betadyne or similar. It is easy to get gashed, with high chance of infection. I really like the fabric bandaids but with the sweat and potential rain and other fluids, maybe waterproof bandaids would be better. And really good gloves, like one of the dozens of ansell hyflex.

It looks like he has a very good chance of no rain. But it's moving a 10ee for 3-5 hours on a highway in Florida, so I guess you still need to be ready for cloudbursts. It is 78F at the pickup now. Heat index will be 90 at 10AM and 101 at 1pm, with zero wind in the forecast.

vpt
07-15-2019, 09:04 AM
Gosh, if the trailer is 2500lbs itself, lathe 3000, grinder 1500, 500lbs of cribbing/pallets, you going north of 7000lbs with a F150.
What the gross weight the truck rated at?

Y'know it would be interesting to see the weight of the machines.
you can buy a weight ticket at a truck-stop with semi-truck scales.
I weighed my boat and it was $15, and the kicker is that 1 re-weigh is included, so I weighed my rig with and without the boat, I got 2 printouts with weight.



Weight is hardly ever an issue when towing. A civic could pull that load and not have a problem. What causes problems is speed and handling. Short wheel base trailers (length from tongue to axles) can very easily get out of hand in a hurry if you are going too fast no matter what you are pulling it with. As soon as they start to "wiggle" it can all be over with in seconds. Keep an eye in the mirror on your trip and your hand close to the brake controller switch. If the trailer starts to sway (wiggle) back and forth, hit the switch on the brake controller to help straiten it out.

This is the "wiggle" I am talking about, this is with an empty trailer mind you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uvPIjaK01A

JoeLee
07-15-2019, 09:49 AM
Don't they have an anti sway bar link that goes between the truck and trailer tongue to help dampen any sway and prevent this??

JL.................

Ringo
07-15-2019, 10:05 AM
Weight is always the issue when towing.
Not distributed correctly, it gives you problems. Not distributed correctly, you got no handling, too much weight and you can't control it when you brake, especially if you need a hard stop.
That's why I suggested putting one machine in the truck, up against the cab, to get weight on the steering axle.
I witnessed the same thing a guy had a trailer hauling sand and it started whipping, he had no weight in the truck, and a lot of tongue weight.
Tongue weight is aft of the rear axle and lightens the front end

Ringo
07-15-2019, 10:07 AM
Don't they have an anti sway bar link that goes between the truck and trailer tongue to help dampen any sway and prevent this??

JL.................

yeah they got that, but when you need it, you got too little truck to start with, or you got a weight distribution problem

Willy
07-15-2019, 10:21 AM
Here's hopping that RB211 has a great trip and an uneventful day, well if you can rate bringing home a Monarch uneventful. LOL

Looking forward of his safe return and a big smile on his face when he has it all home and in the shop. Pics would be nice.:)

The sway control bars are actually torsion bars that are part of a weight distributing hitch system. Too much weight on the hitch and you run into gross understeer on the tow vehicle, too little weight and you risk instability due to the dynamics involved with the trailer movement. The load must be properly distributed and balanced. Graphic example below.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2fkOVHAC8Q

RB211
07-15-2019, 10:21 AM
Waiting for them to get it out of the building, it is a physics lab. Apparently they want to make room for a waterjet.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190715/ff288379f679fa4ba40cdb945de3c7f7.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190715/eaf8a37af91609140dc2a36162aaba49.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190715/8ffe113a06abf22f2ca75384e58df89e.jpg

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RB211
07-15-2019, 10:37 AM
Pristine condition!!!https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190715/b784844f68f603466d7256eeffb4772a.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190715/549f6b07c004537ddc2880f93026b59e.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190715/b6d65bd92533b169ffb836401f980581.jpg

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Ringo
07-15-2019, 10:54 AM
Geez, it looks like you don't even need to clean it up !!
Lathe the same condition?

RB211
07-15-2019, 12:16 PM
Geez, it looks like you don't even need to clean it up !!
Lathe the same condition?Lathe was on a WW2 Navy ship, then went to USF where it had maybe 30 hours of use on it
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190715/e3faaf0ad5ab5a12883e0e17fde436c4.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190715/1ce03893739053c8f249762d8e7fd297.jpg

This was a once in a lifetime find, kicking myself that I didn't go for the Do-All bandsaw!

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RB211
07-15-2019, 12:19 PM
I'm cutting corners on the rigging, taking way too long without a helper, forecast looks good.

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JoeLee
07-15-2019, 12:31 PM
I'm cutting corners on the rigging, taking way too long without a helper, forecast looks good.

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Quit wasting time taking pics and BS'n with everybody here!! Ha,ha..... good luck on the way back.

JL............

Dan Dubeau
07-15-2019, 12:43 PM
That's a great looking lathe, good luck with the rest of the move.

Glug
07-15-2019, 12:48 PM
I'm cutting corners on the rigging, taking way too long without a helper, forecast looks good.

I hope you get lucky on the weather. 30% chance in both cities. You never know when you'll drive through a puddle. And the grit on the highway..

Richard P Wilson
07-15-2019, 01:22 PM
Probably too late to be any use to you now, but I try and remove all the projecting handwheels and levers if possible, so they can't get snagged and damaged during transit. That saddle handwheel looks particularly fragile.

DICKEYBIRD
07-15-2019, 01:43 PM
I hope you get lucky on the weather. 30% chance in both cities. You never know when you'll drive through a puddle. And the grit on the highway..Don't forget to factor in the EXTREME low pressure area around RB's truck. The suckage factor is off the charts!:rolleyes:

reggie_obe
07-15-2019, 03:23 PM
Don't forget to factor in the EXTREME low pressure area around RB's truck. The suckage factor is off the charts!:rolleyes:

Sweet deals like this are around for those that look for them.

Hope RB remembered to remove the collet knockout rod from its hooks on the front of the machine.

Glug
07-15-2019, 03:49 PM
Bad news. I just heard the state patrol has closed the highway. Huge numbers of vehicles have flat tires. It is likely RB211 is stuck. Some extreme suckage drained the tires of air.

I do see some small spots appearing on radar, out of nowhere.

RB211
07-15-2019, 04:23 PM
Wonder which ship?https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190715/2d6f46d938b6048b0dd4c4ad6c92353e.jpg

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RB211
07-15-2019, 05:03 PM
Damn air mass cells that pop up. Was watching radar so pulled over in time to get the tarps on.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190715/4eec826bbb5d711a506501cbe086d2aa.jpg

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RB211
07-15-2019, 05:05 PM
Ironically, if I kept driving, would of missed ithttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190715/e2e7029680b0093d71484ab48104e4b6.jpg

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Ringo
07-15-2019, 05:45 PM
Looks like the low pressure (suckage) around RB's truck is so bad it started raining :cool::rolleyes::p

Glug
07-15-2019, 06:00 PM
Ironically, if I kept driving, would of missed it

Can't chance it. It looks like it has avoided rain for 78 years.

Willy
07-15-2019, 06:21 PM
I'll betcha he can just about smell his own driveway right about now.
He's guna be one busy boy for the next few days.
Christmas arrived early this year. Happy to see that old puppy is going to a loving new home. I still can't believe how nice of a condition everything is. Usually when you find something like this it's been sitting outside for two years under an old weathered Walmart tarp with a brick on it.

vpt
07-15-2019, 08:23 PM
Very nice machines! Looks forward to all the unloading and setup and then first use pics!

RB211
07-15-2019, 11:02 PM
Hardest part was using the pallet truck to unload the 10EE.
I need a bigger shop, I literally cannot walk in it right now.
A huge thank you to Glug who turned me to this auction, and pushed me to do it.
I have to go back to work, but my primary concern is making sure the SG table didn't get wet. It was very well lubed to begin with though.
My wife got my neighbor to come over and help. Everything would still be on the trailer if he didn't. Never doing this again without a team of helpers.
FSU was a piece of cake, they used a crane to plop both of them on the pallets on the trailer.
The advice of the balancing point on the 10EE was spot on.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190716/6fe8b022539a5260527263cace416b34.jpg

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Willy
07-15-2019, 11:25 PM
Congratulations, you've put in a pretty full day. I knew when we didn't hear from you for a few hours that you were probably up to your keester getting it all off and into the shop. Glad to see all went well, nice to see it safely in the shop.
You can go back to work now and rest up. LOL
You'll have plenty to think about while you're gone I'm sure.

Peter.
07-16-2019, 05:37 AM
Looks like a real good score. The lathe's in great condition and you got both steadies, the travelling one being the better non-bendy type that bridges the cross slide. That's a 5 grand lathe IMO.

Sparky_NY
07-16-2019, 07:52 AM
Anyone heard from RB211 since his posted pics stopping for the rain? Been patiently watching for updates.

RichR
07-16-2019, 09:15 AM
Anyone heard from RB211 since his posted pics stopping for the rain? Been patiently watching for updates.

He's home. Check post #99.

Ringo
07-16-2019, 09:19 AM
Congrats on the move.
And the lathe has a DRO as well??

Sparky_NY
07-16-2019, 11:01 AM
He's home. Check post #99.

Thanks, missed that somehow. Guess he is back off to work, at least he will have a LOT of light reading to do now in his down time. Lots of reading to do about the 10EE and the grinder.

Well done RB !

mattthemuppet
07-16-2019, 11:08 AM
woohoo! Nice work :) Are you keeping the PM lathe for longer work? I'm sure you'll fit it all in, it'll just take some chin scratching and sweat equity to sort out.

RB211
07-16-2019, 12:01 PM
woohoo! Nice work :) Are you keeping the PM lathe for longer work? I'm sure you'll fit it all in, it'll just take some chin scratching and sweat equity to sort out.Going to keep the PM lathe because I can't get my money back out of it. If some one offered me 4,000$ for it, I'd take it.


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RB211
07-16-2019, 12:02 PM
Thanks, missed that somehow. Guess he is back off to work, at least he will have a LOT of light reading to do now in his down time. Lots of reading to do about the 10EE and the grinder.

Well done RB !Go back tomorrow evening. Today I am recovering and spending time with the family I neglected this past week to make this happen.

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JRouche
07-16-2019, 12:19 PM
Very nice looking machines!! Glad you got them in the shop. Now breath!!! :) JR

Dave C
07-16-2019, 12:24 PM
Very well done, start to finish. As everyone else has said, great machines and perfect condition. Glad you made it home safely. Well done indeed.

Glug
07-16-2019, 12:31 PM
I need a bigger shop, I literally cannot walk in it right now.


Congratulations! It is nice having a machine that can make you giddy when you think about it, or about using it. Plus, there is the history of that machine, in service to the country. Monarch production ramped up huge during the wars. My 10ee is also a Navy war bird, but from the Korean war era.

Fact is, very few machines feature foot controls. So to deal with the lack of floor space and no room to walk, I propose a network of hammocks above the machines.

Bonus - you can nap in a hammock, while peering down at the 10ee..

The Monarch forum over on PM has a tremendous archive of information on the machine. It is mandatory reading. Most any question has already been answered but don't hesitate to ask again. "First do no harm" really applies to this very complicated machine.

There are best practices for bringing up any 10ee. Start a post over there, with pictures of the machine, and you can get great advice specific to yours. Everyone likes to read about newly found machines. You will need to understand the state of the drive system today - in what ways it has been modified over 78 years, whether it is correctly and safely connected, what to do before applying power, what is normal and what is not, etc. High voltage DC has risks that are different than AC. You've also got that non-standard bit on the front of the machine to understand.

Getting the lube system in proper order can be fairly involved. I would not move the carriage and cross feed until you have evaluated the condition of the plubing system. There are metering orifices and they typically clog over the decades. No point in moving it dry. The compound and tailstock are manually lubricated. If you open the headstock, the inside must be kept perfectly clean and dust free to protect the bearings.

If your machine was filthy, with bad paint, going at it to clean it up is fairly obvious. But your lathe has a great original patina that you will probably want to preserve - at least in some places. That is more tricky. Don't let caustic cleaning products wick into the seams.

I know you have a/c in the shop. I'd still keep a cloth cover on the machine. If power goes out while you're not home, it'll give some protection.

nickel-city-fab
07-16-2019, 01:38 PM
Congratulations, that's some beautiful machinery! Glad someone is having good luck saving older American iron.

RB211
07-16-2019, 02:17 PM
Congratulations! It is nice having a machine that can make you giddy when you think about it, or about using it. Plus, there is the history of that machine, in service to the country. Monarch production ramped up huge during the wars. My 10ee is also a Navy war bird, but from the Korean war era.

Fact is, very few machines feature foot controls. So to deal with the lack of floor space and no room to walk, I propose a network of hammocks above the machines.

Bonus - you can nap in a hammock, while peering down at the 10ee..

The Monarch forum over on PM has a tremendous archive of information on the machine. It is mandatory reading. Most any question has already been answered but don't hesitate to ask again. "First do no harm" really applies to this very complicated machine.

There are best practices for bringing up any 10ee. Start a post over there, with pictures of the machine, and you can get great advice specific to yours. Everyone likes to read about newly found machines. You will need to understand the state of the drive system today - in what ways it has been modified over 78 years, whether it is correctly and safely connected, what to do before applying power, what is normal and what is not, etc. High voltage DC has risks that are different than AC. You've also got that non-standard bit on the front of the machine to understand.

Getting the lube system in proper order can be fairly involved. I would not move the carriage and cross feed until you have evaluated the condition of the plubing system. There are metering orifices and they typically clog over the decades. No point in moving it dry. The compound and tailstock are manually lubricated. If you open the headstock, the inside must be kept perfectly clean and dust free to protect the bearings.

If your machine was filthy, with bad paint, going at it to clean it up is fairly obvious. But your lathe has a great original patina that you will probably want to preserve - at least in some places. That is more tricky. Don't let caustic cleaning products wick into the seams.

I know you have a/c in the shop. I'd still keep a cloth cover on the machine. If power goes out while you're not home, it'll give some protection.Well, now that I own some machinery that they respect over at PM, suppose I should make an account. I have a lot of research to do and figure out the electrical. The bottom rear cover has some rust on it.

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Mcgyver
07-16-2019, 02:35 PM
Glad you got it home. PM has a good Monarch section, although there are several guys here who know their way around them

RB211
07-16-2019, 03:34 PM
Glad you got it home. PM has a good Monarch section, although there are several guys here who know their way around them

I see that we have quite a few 10EE people here. Just ordered the manual that's specific to my manuf number from Monarch. Amazing you can still buy these things.
Ball bearing auto adjusting gibs? Automatic lubrication?
Sweeet!

Peter.
07-16-2019, 05:33 PM
As Glug said the lube system can get clogged - mine was in a couple of places although yours looks mightily well-cared for so perhaps it's all clear. Turning the big apron handwheel operates the pump and the oil level in the apron needs keeping topped up to the sight glass because that's where it's pumped from. I'd simply oil the ways with a brush if you wanted to try it out.

If the machine was working where it was all you need is a rotary converter to use it at home.

RB211
07-16-2019, 06:53 PM
As Glug said the lube system can get clogged - mine was in a couple of places although yours looks mightily well-cared for so perhaps it's all clear. Turning the big apron handwheel operates the pump and the oil level in the apron needs keeping topped up to the sight glass because that's where it's pumped from. I'd simply oil the ways with a brush if you wanted to try it out.

If the machine was working where it was all you need is a rotary converter to use it at home.

The thing of concern is that the cover is off from the mystery box on the front. Was there additional controls added? Whats it for? I could just plug it into a rotary phase converter and see what happens.

alanganes
07-16-2019, 10:28 PM
The thing of concern is that the cover is off from the mystery box on the front. Was there additional controls added? Whats it for? I could just plug it into a rotary phase converter and see what happens.

Very nice catch and nice work on a safe move.

I'd bet a few close up photos of the innards of the mystery controls box will get you some pretty informed guesses as to what its purpose might be.

RB211
07-16-2019, 10:35 PM
Very nice catch and nice work on a safe move.

I'd bet a few close up photos of the innards of the mystery controls box will get you some pretty informed guesses as to what its purpose might be.Here you gohttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190717/fc48e7d6ddd06cb1df8765688a299807.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190717/0c52b84a6bb0e08a2dec9bf939e495b1.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190717/56ab45ba0a37b7cd64b0b1742bbbb261.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190717/d8e090c73ab0e6f5e78635a5f8531904.jpg

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J Tiers
07-16-2019, 10:57 PM
Dunno about purpose.... but there is a coupling between a variable transformer (variac type) and whatever is in the round box.

Given that there appear to be microswitches and cams on the shafts, and that the "round box" resembles a small motor, and has no external shaft other than that going to the "variac", I suppose it to be a gearmotor to turn the "variac", with limit switches.

Purpose unknown, bu could adjust the field power supply for some purpose unknown to me, but perhaps involving a speed control, such as a constant surface speed system. That is a W.A.G. and not to be taken as the official opinion of management or this station.......

RB211
07-16-2019, 11:07 PM
Dunno about purpose.... but there is a coupling between a variable transformer (variac type) and whatever is in the round box.

Given that there appear to be microswitches and cams on the shafts, and that the "round box" resembles a small motor, and has no external shaft other than that going to the "variac", I suppose it to be a gearmotor to turn the "variac", with limit switches.

Purpose unknown, bu could adjust the field power supply for some purpose unknown to me, but perhaps involving a speed control, such as a constant surface speed system. That is a W.A.G. and not to be taken as the official opinion of management or this station.......There's a black knob on top, maybe it's adjusted by hand

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J Tiers
07-16-2019, 11:09 PM
Where is the knob?

In the pics, there is nothing on top of the metal can, and there is only the brush carrier on the bottom of the "variac".

Tundra Twin Track
07-17-2019, 01:07 AM
Congrats on the new toy and the successful move,I had a lot fun picking up and moving all the machines in my shop in the last 9 years.What spindle bore does the Lathe have and what model of Doall Bandsaw was there.

alanganes
07-17-2019, 07:21 AM
I'm pretty sure that round thing that is coupled to the variac is a gearbox/motor, similar to the type used for clocks and things like washing machine timers. In addition to being coupled to turn the variac, it looks like it may have cams or something that actuate those two black microswitches.

Wild guess: Motor turns the variac slowly in one direction, increasing the voltage from the variac. When it gets to the end of it's rotation, it hits one of the switches, reverssing the motor and thus decreasing the voltage from the variac. At the opposite end of rotation, it hits the other switch, the motor reverses, and the cycle repeats.

I've no idea why you would want to do this on your lathe. :)

When you get further along, I guess trying to figure out what that all is connect to may help.

RB211
07-17-2019, 09:45 AM
Where is the knob?

In the pics, there is nothing on top of the metal can, and there is only the brush carrier on the bottom of the "variac".Never mind, it's a fuse holder.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190717/c995e4800088f55ba2dde341eaf1a6aa.jpg

It just struck me that this lathe is driven by a method that is extremely similar to an older diesel locomotive, high voltage DC traction motor.

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RB211
07-17-2019, 09:50 AM
Congrats on the new toy and the successful move,I had a lot fun picking up and moving all the machines in my shop in the last 9 years.What spindle bore does the Lathe have and what model of Doall Bandsaw was there.Model name on the tag said, "Bandfiler"

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Glug
07-17-2019, 09:57 AM
It looks like the original motor generator is still there. That's great.

I'd guess they have patched around the original controls. It looks like it might be a field weakening setup. A large DC motor in over-speed is not a good thing. There is no schematic for this retrofit. I'd learn what it does, how it works, is it sufficiently robust and safe, and make a schematic. Then decide if and how you might want to restore it to stock, and set about getting any parts you are missing.

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/monarch-lathes/

reggie_obe
07-17-2019, 10:09 AM
It looks like the original motor generator is still there. That's great.

I'd guess they have patched around the original controls. It looks like it might be a field weakening setup. A large DC motor in over-speed is not a good thing. There is no schematic for this retrofit. I'd learn what it does, how it works, is it sufficiently robust and safe, and make a schematic. Then decide if and how you might want to restore it to stock, and set about getting any parts you are missing.

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/monarch-lathes/

A wild idea: contact the lab and speak to the technician who ran it. He might be the guy who added the control or might know who did.

Glug
07-17-2019, 11:13 AM
it just struck me that this lathe is driven by a method that is extremely similar to an older diesel locomotive, high voltage dc traction motor.

Elevator!

J Tiers
07-17-2019, 12:02 PM
The machine may very likely use field weakening for higher speeds. The 10EE did that by design for some models, I am not sure which did not, but the "WIAD" type, with the thyratron drive, did use it. Your motor generator type may or may not.

The odd box could be a shop made speed control for constant surface speed, or the like. There was an actual factory setup for that, although that setup doe not look like it and I am not sure how that would be controlled. The factory one apparently worked off crosslide position, I am told.

Optics Curmudgeon
07-17-2019, 04:38 PM
The round box is a Hurst synchronous motor with a clutch, either PC-DA or AR-DA. If I had to guess I would say that it's driving that variac to ramp up the MG field for a soft start.

RB211
07-18-2019, 12:52 AM
The round box is a Hurst synchronous motor with a clutch, either PC-DA or AR-DA. If I had to guess I would say that it's driving that variac to ramp up the MG field for a soft start.Was told it was all working before they auctioned it off, and has the electrical 3phase input. After reading the manual and making sure the lube system isn't clogged, I may just plug it in to 3phase and see what it does. I think your synopsis is the most plausible. There's no loose wires, nothing to indicate anything was wrong except for the cover removed from the variac box. One of those American Rotary 10 HP units look real nice.

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Peter.
07-18-2019, 01:28 AM
Ok so that's an early 'inline exciter' motor generator unit as opposed to the more common 'piggyback' type. In the last pic of post #119 (http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/79342-Getting-ready-for-the-big-move?p=1247537#post1247537) the exciter is the dark round lump on the very left of the MG assembly in the base. The blue wires are standard (steel cored) wires whilst the white are certainly not. The box on the front I have no clue about but I would guess that it's something in lieu of the exciter as before. The inline ones were troublesome as I understand. A good pic inside the end cover might reveal more.

BTW Jerry all of the MG, WIAD and module machines employed field weakening far as I know. That'll be the vast majority of them.

J Tiers
07-18-2019, 11:50 AM
......

BTW Jerry all of the MG, WIAD and module machines employed field weakening far as I know. That'll be the vast majority of them.

OK, The top speed is different for different models, wasn't sure if any did not use FW.

I want one... would go nicely with the Rivett when that is finished.

Peter.
07-18-2019, 05:41 PM
Far as I know there are two options for top speed - 2500rpm and 4000rpm. The 4000rpm one has different pulleys. Not sure if the very early 1939 Sundstrand hydraulic drive ones were that fast. The English copy of the 10EE, the CVA which was also Sundstrand drive, had three pulley options but they didn't go nearly so high as the 10EE.

RB211
07-19-2019, 02:06 AM
Mine is 2500, but I could easily make it go 4000 rpm if I put a modern 5hp inverter duty motor in it with a vector drive VFD with encoder feedback.
A) Get a rotary converter, run lathe as is.
B) Convert the 7.5hp 3phase motor to single phase, keep everything else the same.
C) Get a solid state drive board that runs on either single or 3 phase.
D) Get a single phase VFD and inverter duty motor.
E) Get a rotary converter and a 3phase VFD/Inverter duty motor.
F) Sell the lathe for a large profit.

All these options cost the same amount of money except for E, with B being possibly much cheaper, and F being stupid.


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Peter.
07-19-2019, 02:07 PM
The blue wires that attach in the front electric/electronic gubbins - they should have metal tags on them. Can you identify those wires by the tags?

RB211
07-19-2019, 02:29 PM
The blue wires that attach in the front electric/electronic gubbins - they should have metal tags on them. Can you identify those wires by the tags?On a work trip again, will have to wait until I'm home

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macona
07-30-2019, 10:47 PM
Jumping back on this post, the motor controlled variac is someone's attempt at handling the field weakening which is what is needed to get the motor past it's base speed. If I recall the field on this was 120 and the armature was 240v. The exciter on top of the motor generator is controlled by one of the giant variable resistors to control the armature voltage, the other rheostat controlled the voltage to the armature. I think. Its been years.

So maybe the exciter died?

I have a spare relay box still from the one I pulled out of mine.

Personally I would start thinking about replacing the drive like I did on mine: https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/monarch-lathes/retrofit-10ee-drive-ac-brushless-servo-motor-154967/

RB211
08-01-2019, 02:39 AM
Just noticed this post in my feed. Well, I have an issue, I need a large rotary phase converter just to see what if anything is wrong with it, only to end up fixing it with something that doesn't require a large 3phase power source?

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Glug
08-01-2019, 08:56 AM
Well, I have an issue, I need a large rotary phase converter just to see what if anything is wrong with it, only to end up fixing it with something that doesn't require a large 3phase power source?

"Cross fingers, power it up and hope for no smoke or arcing" may be appropriate for newly acquired surplus high-bypass turbofans but it is not the preferred assessment and diagnostic method here ;) It isn't even the appropriate way to assess an old tube radio. DC motors can runaway and overspeed. There should be features to prevent that (aka Field Loss Relay), but we don't know in the case of your modified machine. It is also possible that transportation damaged wiring and those safety features no longer work correctly.

You need to document what you have and learn how it is supposed to work from people who can tell you. If it was a standard MG then historic posts would tell you pretty much all you need to know. But since it has been modified you will likely need help with the specifics - I sure would.

Sourcing the required bits and knowedge to properly change, flush and R&R the heckstock and carriage oiling systems is going to take a fair bit of time. In the photos it looked like the headstock oil may be low and might have drained into the gearbox.

Looks like approximately 6 people have posted about their new 10ee's in the Monarch forum in July. Busy month.

MattiJ
08-01-2019, 09:58 AM
Just noticed this post in my feed. Well, I have an issue, I need a large rotary phase converter just to see what if anything is wrong with it, only to end up fixing it with something that doesn't require a large 3phase power source?

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You might get away with substantially undersized rotary converter or vfd just to check if everything works properly.
Quality vfd will work fine with at least 2x nominal size motor and possibly spins up even lot larger motor.

RB211
08-01-2019, 11:46 AM
"Cross fingers, power it up and hope for no smoke or arcing" may be appropriate for newly acquired surplus high-bypass turbofans but it is not the preferred assessment and diagnostic method here ;) It isn't even the appropriate way to assess an old tube radio. DC motors can runaway and overspeed. There should be features to prevent that (aka Field Loss Relay), but we don't know in the case of your modified machine. It is also possible that transportation damaged wiring and those safety features no longer work correctly.

You need to document what you have and learn how it is supposed to work from people who can tell you. If it was a standard MG then historic posts would tell you pretty much all you need to know. But since it has been modified you will likely need help with the specifics - I sure would.

Sourcing the required bits and knowedge to properly change, flush and R&R the heckstock and carriage oiling systems is going to take a fair bit of time. In the photos it looked like the headstock oil may be low and might have drained into the gearbox.

Looks like approximately 6 people have posted about their new 10ee's in the Monarch forum in July. Busy month.This is precisely why new 10EE owners want to gut them and simplify them with a VFD and 3phase motor.

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reggie_obe
08-01-2019, 02:19 PM
This is precisely why new 10EE owners want to gut them and simplify them with a VFD and 3phase motor.

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Where did you get this idea from?
From reading many of the posts on the Monarch PM forum, I don't get the same impression. You said this machine was in use prior to the auction. Why would it require more than a check up, just an an auto that was in storage prior to a long trip?

Glug
08-01-2019, 03:29 PM
Why would it require more than a check up, just an an auto that was in storage prior to a long trip?

I was going to make that same analogy - a very old classic car in very nice condition, that was mostly stored in recent decades, with completely unknown maintenance history. You could pay a mechanic to go through it all, for a long trip, and to make sure driving it won't do any damage.

Most of the work to be done in checking wear items, updating and verifying proper maint, etc, is not related to whatever motor is turning the drive pulley.

The MG drive probably works right now, maybe to original spec. Folks have expressed, more than once IIRC, that it is more reliable than a VFD over the long haul, needing only simple component fixes.

A lot of folks build a phase converter, either sourcing the components themselves or as a kit. Used is another good option. I appreciate the chicken and egg of it.

Baz
08-02-2019, 09:03 AM
As the first item in the chain is a regular 3 phase motor, not any electronics, it is hard to damage it. You can start with the usual kludge of a capacitor and run it off single phase at very low power. With the actual drive turned off all it has to do is spin the generator and generate some voltage without delivering power. You should be able to check that.
Then maybe see if it will turn over the drive motor slowly with no belts on to see if that bit works. Unless there is actual speed feedback from the spindle itself it isn't going to know it isn't connected and the only power needed it to overcome friction and electrical losses.

It might even be worth getting a small VFD anyway for the test off load 'cos you can always use the VFD later for some other small machine like a drill press.

RB211
08-02-2019, 09:09 AM
As the first item in the chain is a regular 3 phase motor, not any electronics, it is hard to damage it. You can start with the usual kludge of a capacitor and run it off single phase at very low power. With the actual drive turned off all it has to do is spin the generator and generate some voltage without delivering power. You should be able to check that.
Then maybe see if it will turn over the drive motor slowly with no belts on to see if that bit works. Unless there is actual speed feedback from the spindle itself it isn't going to know it isn't connected and the only power needed it to overcome friction and electrical losses.

It might even be worth getting a small VFD anyway for the test off load 'cos you can always use the VFD later for some other small machine like a drill press.

A 10hp RPC has been ordered from American Rotary.

Glug
08-02-2019, 11:04 AM
With the actual drive turned off all it has to do is spin the generator and generate some voltage without delivering power. You should be able to check that.


I'd want to first verify the integrity of the physical wiring after the many hour haul, and also understand the theory and implementation of the modifications (I already know a fair bit about the MG setup, but that is also important). If there is a short to the chasis, whether AC or DC, that's lethal. Obviously I'm belt and suspenders on that stuff, YMMV. Other folks seem to be really good at spotting modifications and gotchas.


Then maybe see if it will turn over the drive motor slowly with no belts on to see if that bit works.

Before that, there really is a fair bit of work to be done changing the oil, with significant attention to keeping dust and additional debris out of the headstock. Any sludge or debris was probably stirred up during the hoisting and hauling. We don't even know if it has the correct oil or any oil. University lathes are notorious for being poorly maintained. The students are more concerned with their studies and other endeavors.

Depending, some people flush with filtered kerosine (not re-circulating) using a small pump. But you don't let it sit because there is a particular seal which may degrade, etc.

On anything this old, whether car or machine, there is also the practice of determining which bits show indications of having been worked on in the past. Figuring out the whys and whats of that can be key later.

JRouche
08-02-2019, 12:04 PM
Mine is 2500, but I could easily make it go 4000 rpm if I put a modern 5hp inverter duty motor in it with a vector drive VFD with encoder feedback.
A) Get a rotary converter, run lathe as is.
B) Convert the 7.5hp 3phase motor to single phase, keep everything else the same.
C) Get a solid state drive board that runs on either single or 3 phase.
D) Get a single phase VFD and inverter duty motor.
E) Get a rotary converter and a 3phase VFD/Inverter duty motor.
F) Sell the lathe for a large profit.

All these options cost the same amount of money except for E, with B being possibly much cheaper, and F being stupid.



G) Get my big fat 1ph GE 10hp motor in there. Brand new, ships free :) JR

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=4747&d=1551489097

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=4746&d=1551489095

RB211
08-02-2019, 12:25 PM
G) Get my big fat 1ph GE 10hp motor in there. Brand new, ships free :) JR

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=4747&d=1551489097

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=4746&d=1551489095On a direct drive spindle would result in only one set speed

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JRouche
08-02-2019, 03:56 PM
On a direct drive spindle would result in only one set speed

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Yes. And you cant ship 168lbs for free. Well, not us, maybe you :) JR

RB211
08-02-2019, 05:10 PM
Yes. And you cant ship 168lbs for free. Well, not us, maybe you :) JRI ain't carrying 168 lbs up the stairs 30ft! The cargo is palletized by the customer, I'd have to go through them, IE, DHL, Turkish, JAL, etc.

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