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Bob La Londe
07-13-2019, 01:23 PM
As near as I can tell most paints are out. 10-20 years max, and any UV exposure reduces that dramatically. A north facing wall can help but in a shore side (not salt) environment in Arizona that isn't as much help as it might be elsewhere.

I looked at powder coat, and the best powders start to fade in 20-25 years from what I have read. That's assuming other factors have not harmed them.

Red metals aren't really "red," and they would need to be coated to prevent corrosion. Brass (gold finish) red metal is already being incorporated in the project.

Red anodized aluminum seemed to be an option, but quick checks (not exhaustive) seemed to indicate that organic pigments used in aluminum anodizing will fade. My cursory checks didn't show an inorganic red for aluminum anodizing.

I am prepared (and the person asking is prepared) to leave out the red for these reasons, but I want to make sure I have exhausted my options. No red rust isn't an option. LOL.

I'd like it to look good for the maximum remaining life span of those asking. Maybe as much as 50 years barring further life extension results in medical research.

loose nut
07-13-2019, 02:46 PM
You didn't mention what the project is. It could matter.

old mart
07-13-2019, 03:36 PM
Some of the modern paints might last that long with a coating of clear lacquer. Red cars seem to keep their brightness much better now compared with those from the eighties and nineties even.
Fifty years is a long time and testing colour fastness to last that long is by simulating the passage of time by multiplying the conditions such as UV is not failproof.
I have seen lots of anodising dyes fade badly when exposed to direct sunlight.

Bob La Londe
07-13-2019, 04:43 PM
You didn't mention what the project is. It could matter.

I didn't forget. The way things go off and people decide for you how you should be doing it totally different I left the exact nature of the project out on purpose. Paint, powder coat, and anodizing have been considered. That should for most folks determine the scope of the application. If you have a tough weatherproof no fade something that is colored red I'd love to hear about it. Extreme price as well as exposure to the elements, thieves, and vandals is of course is a consideration so rows of inset rubies is probably out, but other options more expensive than those already considered are within the scope of the project.

Glug
07-13-2019, 04:53 PM
I didn't forget. The way things go off and people decide for you how you should be doing it totally different I left the exact nature of the project out on purpose.

"Why do you think you need a personal fire hydrant?"

Bob La Londe
07-13-2019, 05:16 PM
"Why do you think you need a personal fire hydrant?"

Hydrants around here are yellow.

Corbettprime
07-13-2019, 05:27 PM
I didn't forget. The way things go off and people decide for you how you should be doing it totally different I left the exact nature of the project out on purpose. Paint, powder coat, and anodizing have been considered. That should for most folks determine the scope of the application. If you have a tough weatherproof no fade something that is colored red I'd love to hear about it. Extreme price as well as exposure to the elements, thieves, and vandals is of course is a consideration so rows of inset rubies is probably out, but other options more expensive than those already considered are within the scope of the project.

American Heartland Hi-Gloss Classic Red oil based barn and roof paint at Menards.

mattthemuppet
07-13-2019, 05:40 PM
what about that type of steel that is designed to rust and generate a protective oxide coat? Can't remember the name of it, but I've read about it here or there.

I think most coloured coatings are going to struggle on a 25 year or more time frame, whatever the colour. Different metals and their colours would be the way to go, as it seems you've already started thinking about.

Bob La Londe
07-13-2019, 05:49 PM
Brass/aluminum or brass/stainless are already a base part of the plan. Those who would like this done have accepted that gold and silver finish may be best long term solution, but I am hoping for a gold/silver/red solution.

Baz
07-13-2019, 06:37 PM
You dismissed ruby but what about glass? Check if there are some old stained glass church windows that include red, modern stained glass tends to be painted.
Perhaps ask a chemist which salts are red, eg mercuric sulphide and lead tetroxide. There must be one that is red and non reactive it is going to stay that way until it gets covered in a layer of dirt.

boslab
07-13-2019, 08:28 PM
Copper, gold and selenium produce a red glass, think small amounts of lead do as well but not certain
Cobalt is my favourite, beautiful blue, my furnace glasses are cobalt blue, blocks infra red and uv I was told but they stopped us using them in the late 80s as the may be acting like narrow band filters and allowing somthing through, I spent thousands of hours staring at molten metal, no ill effects, yet
Red paints are the fastest fading colour I’ve seen, colour matching a red car is a nightmare, the paint has to be aged as it were, if you spray the factory code on a ding it sticks out like a zit on a supermodels nose.
Mark

Bob La Londe
07-13-2019, 08:49 PM
From what I have been reading an inorganic pigment (such as some of the chemicals mentioned) might work really well for anodized aluminum, but nobody seems to be selling any inorganic pigment for anodizing except gold. Everything else is an organic pigment. I'm not sure I am ready to start mixing my own...

… cadmium
….. lead
……. arsenic

Gack!

Ries
07-13-2019, 09:40 PM
NO paint will last 20 years.
Paint is always temporary.

The reason you see painted gates on palaces in Europe look good is due to 400 years of servants cleaning and repainting every couple of years.
20 years from powder coat is dreaming.
In the perfect environment, with perfect prep, which means sandblasting and a 5 tank cleaning process, on steel, 10 to 15 years for powdercoat may be possible- but it will still fade, craze, and dull.
And when powder starts to go, it peels like a bad sunburn.
On aluminum- ferget it.
I have a a bright red powdercoated sedan chair in the rafters of my shop, all aluminum. It is peeling quite badly, after about 15 years, having been stored in a heated, dry environment. Outdoors, figure much less.
Aluminum, in general, doesnt like paint very well.
What does work pretty well is the bright red stickers from 3M they use for stop signs. But, 3M only warranties it for 12 years, max.

JoeLee
07-13-2019, 09:44 PM
From my experience, no paints last as long as the old finishes did. A couple examples would be Rust Oleum. The old stuff lasted decades out doors. The newer stuff chalk out after about 2 years and then starts to split and flake away. Any out door wood paint, a couple years and it's chalked out and faded. When I was in high school I sanded and painted all the soffit around our house. That paint lasted about 20 years before it needed to be refinished. The last coat of paint I put on it lasted about 4 years and was chalked out.
They took all the good stuff out of these finishes that made them durable and long lasting.

JL.............

Dan Dubeau
07-13-2019, 09:46 PM
There you go Bob, your best bet is to just make whatever you're making out of stop signs:)

Lee Cordochorea
07-14-2019, 11:35 AM
Just repaint it as needed. If they're not willing to take care of the thing then they probably shouldn't have the thing.

Robin R
07-14-2019, 12:11 PM
What about vitreous enamel, I'm pretty sure that wouldn't fade. They made red Agas, so it must be possible to find red enamel.

BCRider
07-14-2019, 01:19 PM
Someone above suggested red automotive paint. That would be the "new" current practice of base color with the two part clear overcoating.

Don't assume that red cars don't fade though even with today's super tough car finishes. Ask an automotive paint guy about the current red cars and you'll quickly get an earful on how they still fade and any repairs need to shift the tinting of the red from the stock formula to match the fade.

But all that being said I do believe that a well applied automotive finish would be your best bet. But it too will weather unless you treat it like a car and give it a wash and wax once a year or so. Otherwise it'll dull and go chalky too.

I take it that you want to put this thing up where it's hard to reach? Even so would it be the end of the world to bring it down and re-paint about once every 8 to 10 years?

And what about the brass you want to use? Left outside it'll rapidly oxidize to darker and darker and start to go to verdigris. Oh sure, you can clear coat it but the clear coating will have the same chalking, flaking and other issues as the paint or powdercoat. And once the coating is breached the brass will turn color rapidly.

old mart
07-14-2019, 03:45 PM
I can guess why red is important, the customers want a giant stars and stripes on the wall of their house.

Ian B
07-17-2019, 02:22 AM
Matt,

You mentioned steel that rusts but doesn't flake - it's probably this stuff: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weathering_steel

Half of Holland seems to be made of it; everywhere you go, you see new building projects made of it. Personally, I think it sucks, the place looks like a scrapyard, but then I don't have a degree in art and aesthetics, so what would I know...

Ian

Edwin Dirnbeck
07-17-2019, 07:58 AM
I didn't forget. The way things go off and people decide for you how you should be doing it totally different I left the exact nature of the project out on purpose. Paint, powder coat, and anodizing have been considered. That should for most folks determine the scope of the application. If you have a tough weatherproof no fade something that is colored red I'd love to hear about it. Extreme price as well as exposure to the elements, thieves, and vandals is of course is a consideration so rows of inset rubies is probably out, but other options more expensive than those already considered are within the scope of the project.

I have seen 50 year old porcelain BLACK AND WHITE POTOGRAPHS on grave stones that look as good as new. I don't know if they ever used this process with color Maybe you could look at some real vintage filling station signs. They were not painted but were real hi temp fired porcelain enamel. Some of them were for Gulf oil ,they were a bright orange..Edwin Dirnbeck

Edwin Dirnbeck
07-17-2019, 08:17 AM
This supposedly is about 70 years old real porcelain enamelhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190717/4fb71ada65d4b64d57c512333dfb6c28.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

AD5MB
07-17-2019, 12:01 PM
Hydrants around here are yellow.

white, before the dogs get to them.

Bob La Londe
07-17-2019, 02:39 PM
I think a lot of those old porcelain finishes used inorganic pigments that are no longer commonly available or allowed. Its certainly an option, but I am not certain it is a practical option.

Paul Alciatore
07-17-2019, 03:03 PM
Judging by the appearance of the barns that I saw while living in Iowa, that is either never used or it is the worst possible choice.




American Heartland Hi-Gloss Classic Red oil based barn and roof paint at Menards.

Paul Alciatore
07-17-2019, 03:26 PM
I think that porcelain is probably your best bet. A porcelain coating is basically a type of clear ceamic (glass) with an added pigment. The clear, glass like carrier is almost a total barrier to the oxygen in the atmosphere and therefore protects the pigment from chemical changes. I fear that no paint can do that and that is why paints will fade over time. It is not just sun light, but a combination of sun light AND oxygen that causes the changes. It probably also explains the longevity of the modern auto paints. The clear coats seal the oxygen out.

I am talking about a real porcelain coating which requires a high temperature oven to melt it on, not porcelain enamel.

old mart
07-17-2019, 03:30 PM
I would call that vitreous enamel.

MattiJ
07-17-2019, 04:34 PM
Porcelain/vitreous enamel is the only one I would trust.

metalmagpie
07-17-2019, 07:36 PM
Why don't you do what the US Navy does? They require that their paint look good, under the worst conditions, for the life of the ship. Hint: you won't like it.

Paint it. Then start at one end and paint the whole thing again. Repeat for the life of the vessel.

Anyway, nobody here has anything near the experience of Ries. What he says is pretty much infallible when it comes to metal finishes holding up outside.

You did say Arizona, right? Then you better include thousands of large thermal swings and super-intense UV radiation.

metalmagpie

Bob La Londe
07-18-2019, 12:02 PM
Oh, I am very much aware of the hostile environment having grown up here and seen it first hand. When I worked for one of the telephone companies in the 80s I noticed materials testing sites in some of the "no road" communications right of ways in the desert. Places where the old communications companies would setup a rack of various construction materials and leave them for decades in the sun to see how they held up.

The Sonoran Desert is a hostile place. If you break down and have to walk out of a lot of areas without water there is a very good chance you will suffer long term affects. Some don't make it. Having helped track people lost in the desert I learned to have a lot of respect for a Jeep's ability to "drive itself" at walking speed so we could be on the ground to read sign. Today most people who go to more remote areas go prepared.