Sharing and evolution.

[sandman2234]

Have you considered moving the center of gravity on your "bridgy" to the center of the base, instead of using the shaper attachment hole? Extend the 4 bolts, add a plate, with center pin and attach your bridgy crane.
Just a idea I used since I had a shaping head sitting in that spot.

David from jax

[John Stevenson]

Prompted by the post by Kap in the genius thread.

Most designs get better by evolution [ Ford excepted http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//redface.gif ]
It's far easier to take someone else's idea and run with it to make it better. The original designer is always looking at the overall picture whereas the user is looker at a far smaller picture and asking himself [ or in Alistair's case - herself http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif ] what can I use this for and finishes up with a similar design but more practical to that user.
Other users might not want that option but a different one.
If we share then we have a far better understanding of the various designs out there.

When I built my first cathead steady, and I'm *STILL* miffed that someone invented this 20 years before I was even born, I had to hold some rectangular bar so I put 4 holes in for the grip screws at 90 degrees.
Later on I realised that if I put two more in from one existing screw at 120 degrees I could hold hex bar as well.
Two additional holes made this into the MKII design - evolution.

Today I had to machine a large armature from a DC electric motor, this was about 14" diameter and two foot long and probably weighed the best end of 600 pounds.
Because my workshop is very cramped I can't get a crane to the big lathe. A gantry is out of the question due to other machines being in the way.
For some while I've been promising myself a move and resite the lights so I can get a beam in to lift on but it's not going to happen that quickly.

I have to use a pump up sack truck that's a cross between a sack truck and a pedestrian fork truck. Because it holds the rotors at 90 degrees to the bed I have to be very careful when loading, one slip and I could be in trouble.
I managed today with the usual struggle but then as I was taking it out I hit on an idea to load these quickly and safely.

Once I get something worked out I'll post pictures. Now my setup is probably unique to me and someone seeing the pics will think "so what" but it's not the pics, - it's the idea.
This setup will have quite a few different uses and could be applied to a mill as well as a lathe. None of us are getting younger, IBEW just chases younger birds http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif, and as we get older things like lifting a vise or dividing head can prove taxing.

At this point in time it's unique to me, when published no doubt many will truthfully say "I've got one of those"
If so POST THE PICS NOW and save me having to re-invent the wheel http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

John S.

[WJHartson]

John, I agree that sharing ideas will always make things better. Two heads are better than one. To save you some time I am posting picture of the idea so you can improve on it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0703/Homemade44/ar_644_a.jpg

Couldn't resist.

Would like to see your idea for moving heavy items onto the machines. Think I a going to have to put some of my accessories on a diet as they keep gaining weight. Age has nothing to do with it.

Joe

[NAMPeters]

John, dancing across the stage behind balloons and fans, throws us another teaser. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif Next we will have Alistair up there in his kilt wishing for a breeze. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

------------------
Neil Peters

[Forrest Addy]

Big armatures in machines having no crane service, roll it up a ramp, crib and rock, strong arm it.

I was busted by the boss on graveyard for lifting a heavy armature up into a cylindrical grinder when the crane operator was out of the shop. It was plenty heavy but I was young and strong and stupid. I had pallets of armatures sitting around some ready for shipping. One of then was a big honker weighing maybe 400 lb which I handled with the forlift using an illegal rig.

Mike took this off to the shipping station and I never thought a thing about it. He stopped at the scale to weight the armature and passed the word to the gossips I was lifting 400 lb stuff and putting it between centers. It was a lie but it was also free glory. I denied it and people assumed it was modesty or concern for safety violations. I just never corrected the story.

Heh heh.

In the absense of suitable lifting gear, ramps and cribbing work good for getting heavy stuff up to a height and a couple of modified thrift shop scissor jacks (tack weld "V"'s on them) to support the work into the centers.

[Tony]

john,
re: genius post. My apologies for thanking you, i'll try not to let it happen again. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//wink.gif

re: lifting.. have you thought about a small jib crane? i dont do much heavy work, and i get local muscle to help when i do, but have always thought about a small jib crane somewhere behind the lathe, down by the tail.

if you search the net for pictures, you'll see some pretty beefy designs for even 1/2 ton hoists. but if you could also anchor the column to the ceiling (instead of just the floor) and you reduce the boom length just enough to get over the bed, one could design a safe, light jib crane. as long as you can get your work to the lathe, the jib crane could load it up. a 1/2 ton winch on a trolley would give you +/- a meter or so of freedom without getting too large.

-tony

NB: i am not the inventor of the jib crane.

[Carl]

Quoting Forrest:


"I was busted by the boss on graveyard for lifting a heavy armature up into a cylindrical grinder when the crane operator was out of the shop. It was plenty heavy but I was young and strong and stupid. I had pallets of armatures sitting around some ready for shipping. One of then was a big honker weighing maybe 400 lb which I handled with the forlift using an illegal rig.

Mike took this off to the shipping station and I never thought a thing about it. He stopped at the scale to weight the armature and passed the word to the gossips I was lifting 400 lb stuff and putting it between centers. It was a lie but it was also free glory. I denied it and people assumed it was modesty or concern for safety violations. I just never corrected the story.

Heh heh."


http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/_1998_retired_files/Bow01.gif




[This message has been edited by Carl (edited 09-30-2004).]

[John Stevenson]

My problem is lack of space.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/stevenson.engineers/lsteve/files/shop3.jpg


http://homepage.ntlworld.com/stevenson.engineers/lsteve/files/shop4.jpg

There is very little room between that Bridgy and the lathe, about 30".
A ramp is out of the picture due to this lack of space.
The ceiling is not that high and definitly not load bearing.
I can support one end of a beam on the wall behind the lathe but not the other end.
At the moment I do use a couple of sissor jacks to lift up to centre hight once it's on the bed.

My idea was to build a trolley that could take the rotor or whatever and be pushed into position.
A detachable upright would be fitted to a socket on one side of the trolley and this would support a beam whose other end was supported on the wall or even onto the ram of a machine such as a Bridgy.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/stevenson.engineers/lsteve/files/trolley.jpg

The load would then be lifted with a set of chain blocks and swung into position.
This setup requires no fixed beams above a machine.

After reading Forrests post about a ramp and my trolley design I realised that even simpler was to build a trolley that is the hight of the lathe bed and using a board that fits over the ways and is pegged to them to prevent it slipping the load can be rolled straight off the trolley directly onto the board and lifted into position with the sissor jacks as at present.
Only drawback to this I can see is that the trolley will be quite hight and require a decent footprint to remain stable.
It can be loaded outside with the forktruck so that isn't a problem.

This takes me up to the MKII, I await the MKIII with baited breath http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

John S.

PS. Tony, I'm struggling for room for a jib crane, also this machine is nearly 12 foot long so the load is reduced with a reach this big.



[This message has been edited by John Stevenson (edited 09-30-2004).]

[Forrest Addy]

John, I can see one place where you can put two more machine tools if you shove all that other stuff tight together and put duckboards across the top for access.

Seriously, have you ever considered a lifting horse - like a tall saw horse - that just clears the ceiling? Crowded as you are you'd have to very carefully optimize horse to fit the space. If you have wheels going one way and a chain hoist trolley the other you might be able to save your back for more important things - like bellying up to the dinner table.

[JPR]

John,

I would have a concern on building tool in your sketch. When the load is at the end of the beam, you would need significant counter balance. To avoid this problem, an engine hoist runs the legs out past the load.

My suggestion is a monorail and trolley system that is curved to go over each machine. I have seen a similar design on ships. The beam could start at the double doors and make a large sweeping turn over the machine in the back left, then straight to the Bridgeport, then a large u-turn at the end (?) of the shop and back to the lathe. If your heavy stuff is usually go to the lathe, then I would go past the lathe and back to the entrance. Even seen one system that had a large switch so it actually made a figure 6.

Hopefully I described that decently. The system is not as nice as bridge crane, but a lot cheaper since there is only one beam which can be a lot lighter if adequately suppported from above. Also this system works where there are vertical supports or around walls that prevent a bridge system.

I found a picture of a monorail hoist system on a ship from a German company http://www.ship-technology.com/contractors/propulsion/fuchs/fuchs2.html

Jon

[This message has been edited by JPR (edited 09-30-2004).]

[zl1byz]

What if you mounted the post for the jib crane behind the lathe, kind of middle of the bed. From the floor to the rafters, fix the top end into the rafters. The rafters then would only take side load. If you tied it into 2 or 3 of them should handle a fair bit. Cant tell in the pic if they are steel or timber. The boom would only need to reach across the lathe bed to the floor area. Of course if you could find a space in front of the lathe it could swing 360 and load the bridgy too, but probably not the space for this.

[rollin45]

A small dolley that can lift, keep the center of gravity low while moving to the machine, then jack the load and roll into place. Some outriggers that fit into sockets , various angles to accomodate different machines and clearances to keep the top heaviness under control when loading the onto the machine?
rollin'

[zl1byz]

Hard to judge distances in the picture but if those rafters were good for side load a post in the centre between those 3 machines could serve the lot. You might be laughing though as you know how far apart they are. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

[NAMPeters]

Here are my thoughts: hinge the cantilever track beam at the post for storage, set other end of beam on post or suitable wall support when in use and skip the locking casters and rig the dolley so as to abutt the machine and use a strap, like a belt, to tie the dolley to the machine. Hoist on track can also be used to load dolley with a post under the beam. Do not paint green as it may vanish into the ether.

------------------
Neil Peters

[wierdscience]

I built something similar to this out of square tubing for a customer.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/wierdscience/9937tl1s.gif

It was designed to lift 1,000lb fire proof file cabinets onto the back of a truck.

I used roller chain and a worm gear reducer for the lift,with a handwheel for power.It had arms 36" long and could lift things up and over the apron of the lathe or mill table with ease,just crank it up and roll over.

You could just fit one with a jib and use a sling for the lift.



[This message has been edited by wierdscience (edited 09-30-2004).]

[darryl]

Hard to tell from your photos, John, but it occured to me that if you could hang a chain from the ceiling above the lathe, where it would hang centered over the bed, that could be used to hold up the outboard end of the beam in your drawing. Then you don't have to have outrigger legs, or whatever, on your narrow truck. Hang a length of chain over any machine where you would be bringing a heavy item, and have the lowest link high, but still easily reachable with a short segment of chain from the beam. That way they would not be in the way. (hopefully). You get to keep your truck narrow and easily manouverable in the shop.
You said detachable upright, you could instead also make a separate leg with a section of channel welded on top that the beam would sit in. One bolt through a hole keeps the pieces together for safety, keeps the leg vertical in one direction, and a 'T' across the bottom of the leg can be the foot, keeping it vertical in the other direction. Suitable castors on the 'T' would allow you to push it around assembled when picking up or positioning heavy stuff. Portable gantry that can be set up anywhere, and taken apart without tools for storage.

[J Tiers]

Weird, we BOUGHT a commercial one of those for not a lot of money. Lifts 1000 lb, we use it to lift speaker cabinets up for TEF testing.

Lifts 9 or 10 feet, IIRC.

It looks just like that one, though.

[Iquithadenuff]

Just wondering....where do the chips go?

[Charles Ping]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by JPR:
[B]John,

I would have a concern on building tool in your sketch. When the load is at the end of the beam, you would need significant counter balance.</font>

John has an adequate load of counterbalance available in the shop - there's a Bridgeport and the CNC mill just across from the big lathe. Perhaps in addition to the "detachable upright" that John has drawn there should be an telescoping jib that can swivel and extend away from the load to counterbalance and rest under the knee of either mill. The knee can of course be adjusted to suit the height of the jib.

Charles


[This message has been edited by Charles Ping (edited 10-01-2004).]

[zl1byz]

Just back from climbing around the hills here. Why not just build a gantry crane supported on A frames with wheels on the floor. Make it long enough to go across from behind the lathe to behind the bridgy. The A frames would not have to have a very big foot print and once in position probably wouldn't move far Turn some wheels up out of steel, they wouldn't need to swivel. Make the A frames out of RHS, a suitable beam, trolly and chain block. Wouldn't take long to build, not a lot in materials and as safe as.

[John Stevenson]

Thanks guys for the input.
Some replies:-

First off the roof cannot take any load at all, it's virtually flat only about 10 degrees slope and tar sheeted, we don't have a wind problem here and snow is limited to only a few inches per year, so this cancells out any support for the roof.
I can support off the wall at the far end and that was where the over head beam was going to go in the sketch.

Nothing can go behind the lathe without moving it off the wall some more as the cross slide only just misses the wall when right in.

I have a jib crane but I can't use it even if I could get one in as there is no room under the lathe to allow the legs.

Neil has come up with the idea I was going to run with to start as it's the simpler one, hence quicker.
A dolly that can raise would be nice in keping the C of G down but will cost in time to buid and the elevating mechanism could make this wobbly .
I have plenty of 4" box section spare so I can make a substantional frame.
I am not bothered about loading the bridy as it has it's own crane mounted on the shaper swivel at the back.
I have used this in the past to lift rotors up and then drop them on two planks between the bridgy bed and the lathe.
this is fine for rotors weighing about 250# but no way will it lift 1/2 ton rotors.

It's this 1/2 ton target that has me liking the dolly with the beam over.
Rolling a smallish rotor is Ok but it one of the big ones got away it would be dangerous.
At least connected to chain falls you have some control.

The motor rewind peole are dropping a big scrap rotor off early next week so I have something to play with, I have also rung a couple of scrappies and asked for some heavy castors.

Weird,
I have a truck more or less exactly what you have drawn at the moment, mine has a platform instead of forks and it's hydraulic.
That the method I use at the moment but I have to strap the rotor to the frame and wheel it in and it sits parallel to the lathe, there is no room to turn it to face the lathe and the legs can't go under.
Because it's sideways the rotor is 90 degrees to the bed so it has to twist as it rolls off the truck which adds to the pucker factor.

I am not bothered about loading the bridy as it has it's own crane mounted on the shaper swivel at the back.
I have used this in the past to lift rotors up and then drop them on two planks between the bridgy bed and the lathe.
this is fine for rotors weighing about 250# but no way will it lift 1/2 ton rotors.

[Steve Stube]

Hi John,
I have a couple of these (got them at a bargain in an auction).
http://www.wescomfg.com/DPL-54-2222-UP.gif
and they are very handy in crowded quarters and handle 750 pounds nicely. I have used them together to unload a 1400 # crate from a freight truck, got the crate on both, truck pulls up a bit, safely lower and roll in the shop. I have many different hydraulic and winch operated lift devices to save my back from further damage. It is not recommended that you move this with the load raised but exercising caution I have used the method of raising and rolling "very slowly" to avoid tight spots in the pathway or getting long objects thru doors. You can turn in a real tight circle with them. For loading the motor armature in the lathe I see it getting you to the lathe (30" is plenty of room) fine, turn slowly 90 degrees, lift to clear the carriage height plus a ramp (3/16" steel plate with masonite or rubber belting on both sides. With the cart into the lathe as far as possible block the wheels and lash it to the lathe tight at the lowest point possible. The leading edge of the platform has a slight brake ~ 1.5" back from the front edge. I work alone as I think you might so I take a few extra steps to keep on top of things - I think you know what I mean. I can't tell from the photo how far the Cof G of the cart is from your lathe bed center. Anyway I bolt the plate to the cart 2 bolts 5/16 Allen button head - strip of belting to cover them. I haven't put 600 pounds up so you would be the better judge of wither you put 1, 2 or 3 Oak or Ash 4X4's under the plate to get you up over the carriage plus stiff enough to jack from and I bolt a stop block across the plate to hold the armature from rolling too far. Lift height is given here I think 4'.
http://www.wescomfg.com/lift-prod.html

I think you have to open the catalog page to get the spec's. in pdf format here. Page 3.
http://www.wescomfg.com/Pedalifts-Stackers.pdf

Certainly want it to be at rest about midpoint between the ways. I don't know if you want to jack from a point beside the plate or off the plate surface. Wish I had a better idea how far the center lines are apart. Remember too that as soon as you start raising it the stop blocks are out of the picture. I took the lower pan out from between the cabinets supporting my lathe so I can set and block the load then come in above the load and strap it up tight to the bottom side of the platform. Nylon ratchet strap across the platform and around the shaft on each end. The nylon gives me a little wiggle room for aligning.

Well these are my ramblings of how I might proceed please don't take them for anything more but I do hope there is something here that can be useful. Just be careful however you setup to do the job. Steve

I checked, this lift goes to 54" high.

[This message has been edited by Steve Stube (edited 10-01-2004).]

[zl1byz]

Hmm, lost me. You will have to post a picture of your creation when done John.

I liked the bit about painting it green and vanishing into ether though, classic

[wierdscience]

John,whoops,missed the oil tank under the lathe.
Guess what I would do then for a permanet solution would be to hang some steel just under the ceiling on its own legs,you wouldn't need much for the hoist just some 4"I-beam and 2x2" square tube columns.

The good thing about lathes is you don't need more height under the hook than the lathe has swing since nothing bigger will fit in the machine anyway.

[bpsbtoolman]

I have used Forrest's idea of a tall saw horse for lifting a ton or so for many years. Mine just clears my walkout basement celing and is a take apart 4' wide unit that can be easily slid over my machines. I have lifted 5 heavy machines, my J head Bridgeport being the largest at one ton. I have not needed to take it apart since I can park it over one machine or another. After I lift a machine to move I place it on my old Yale 2 ton pallet truck and easily move it. In addition I use the pallet truck to park under my I beam outside my 5' swing out patio door so I can back up a truck or trailer under it in order to to lift machines, place them on the truck and pull them into my basement.

[ulav8r]

Jib Crane. Shop Built. 3-4 in diameter uprights lagged to concrete block wall behind lathe. Extended arms/feet on floor at ends of oil tank. A brace or 2 bolted to the lathe would be helpful. A beam or 2 heavy tubes connecting the uprights to support the jib pivot. About a 5 foot jib with a 1/2 ton chainfall. The pivot should be about 3 feet to the right of the chuck face.

It was quite obvious that there is not enough floor space for a rolling gantry or a standard jib. John is not kidding very much when he asks what a floor is.

[ibewgypsie]

http://www.solley.com/images/chopper2.jpg

HUH, won't this work? We used to always cut a hole in the ceiling and call in a crane.

[This message has been edited by ibewgypsie (edited 10-01-2004).]

[ibewgypsie]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v85/ibewgypsie/pedal-wrecker.jpg

David Cofer, Of:
Tunnel Hill, North Georgia



[This message has been edited by ibewgypsie (edited 10-01-2004).]

[WJHartson]

John,I have seen some of the pro stock racers use sonething similar to what you are looking for to remove the engines from the cars. They have a pocket mounted on the wall of their trailer that will accept an I beam and lock into place with a pin. I think the beam was aluminum. The other end of the beam want to a leg structure outside the trailer. They had a small electric hoist mounted on the I beam via a trolley so they could lift and roll the engine from the car outside the trailer to the inside of the trailer. The hoist and trolley didn't take up much room overhead IIRC about 8 to 10". The hoist was rated for 1000 pounds and the beam was about 12 feet long, longer than you need. The engine was moved into position on a wheeled cradle which is like your stand to support the rotor.

I also have a boom that attaches to a forktruck. It is rated for 250 lbs but may be good for some ideas. See pictures.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0703/Homemade44/hoist3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0703/Homemade44/hoist2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0703/Homemade44/hoist1.jpg

Joe

[moldmonkey]

John,

At work they talked about buying a heavy duty cart with a crane for lifting and moving mold cavities and cores. Your idea reminds of that. I tried to do a search for it. No luck but i did find this. Half way down is a rotatable shop crane. Something like that on a smaller scale might do the job.

http://www.aiplen.com/crane.htm

We do have a die cart like several people have shown. They are handy especially as a portable, height adjustable worktable but do have a nasty habit of rolling away as you slide the part off.

[This message has been edited by moldmonkey (edited 10-01-2004).]

[John Stevenson]

Mould, That is neat. They list 2 tons for this, how do they stop it tipping over ?

To use an form of jib crane from the rear I need to have a reach of about 8 foot to lift from in front of the lathe.
Half a ton at 8 foot is some serious leverage and to be right it would really have to lift 2.2 times this for a safety factor.

I think this does away with any design that uses an unsupported beam.

My answer would be to get more room but that's not possible either.
I still have a Bridgy CNC and that grinder I stole off Alistair outside under sheets and I bought another drill grinder today.
I allready have a Brierley drill grinder so I thought with dark nights approaching if I got another one I could breed them http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

John S.

[zl1byz]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by John Stevenson:
Mould, That is neat. They list 2 tons for this, how do they stop it tipping over ?

John S.</font>

Yes seems to defy the law of physics doesn't it John

[ARFF79]

John, Ever think to use a "Sky Crane/Hook" ? It used to be advertised in Enco catalogs among others. It attatches to the rear of your lathe bed and is good for up to around 750 lbs if my memory serves. it is removable and the photos in the ad used to show several burly men fighting with a large shaft(varying diameters,4"-8" by about 40" long)followed by one person loading the same shaft with the hook.
I also seem to remember an HMS or Projects article where some one made up something similar that fit in the lathe bed to aid in chuck removal and placement. It also was mountable on his milling machine bed.

[Mike W]

I am glad I work in the electronics field. I have a come along to lift the 200 pound vacuum tube. Not needed with transistors. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

[ibewgypsie]

Didn't you post a similar ideal on the "helpful hints section"

A crane on a bridgy.. or did it die a untimely death? A one foot crane w/swivel mounted on machine and foot that supports a light I-beam is probably what you need. Steady, and strong and able to swivel out of the way. I saw aluminum Ibeam on one lathe for a rig like this.

I liked the pedal car w.lift.. I have a real wrecker in the yard, My shop truck has sat since I moved it here.. A real shop truck has a crane on the back.

------------------
David Cofer, Of:
Tunnel Hill, North Georgia

[moldmonkey]

John-8 foot reach. Yeah, that would get real tippy. (Is that a word?)

Everybody keep the ideas coming. I think we all suffer from not enough space and a need to move heavy things.

Jon Bohlander

[Jaymo]

Those glorified pallet jacks with masts are called stackers.

Am I correct in assuming that an engine hoist would not work?

Wouldn't need counterweight if outriggers/loadwheels are used.

[ibewgypsie]

Ohh my.. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

http://poetry.rotten.com/potatoes-n-jelly/potatoes-n-jelly-1.jpg

Bet that sounded like a honda when he passed that.. Haruumph... http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif



[This message has been edited by ibewgypsie (edited 10-02-2004).]

[BillH]

Hmm Dave, I believe thats an X-ray of a Woman!
Notice the wide hips, and how the can is positioned.

[J Tiers]

Looking at the pics, I see a concrete block wall. That will hold a lot of weight.

So....think of a library.....a track set high on the concrete wall, and a guide track set into the floor (might need some chipping there.....)

A vertical "A" frame running on the floor track, with a beam across that runs on the wall track.

A hoist runs on that cross beam. From teh pics it looks like it could then cover most if not all the machines.

If the floor track is not possible, you could just run to the opposite wall and amother wall track. But that makes your beam need to be deeper. Might not clear both the Bridgeport and that wall cabinet.....I'd move the cabinet, but........

At least the Bridgeport is on the side of the shed with the high side of the roof.

[ulav8r]

Same jib idea as above, but add a leg on the end to support during a lift. Might need to be removable to get out of the way after use. Use a 2' square base on casters, 2 inch pipe upright to wedge under end of jib.