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View Full Version : Aluminumn where can you buy



audrey
11-15-2004, 11:08 AM
Ive looked all over. Where can you buy aluminumn in 7039,,7005,,7020 with the no post weld heat treatment required,,, Thankyou Audrey

Evan
11-15-2004, 12:33 PM
???? Audrey, 7000 series aluminum alloys are generally considered unweldable. It can be spot welded under special circumstances but not tig or mig or torch. It destroys the properties.

Ries
11-15-2004, 01:25 PM
Them is some wierd alloys- 7021 and 7039 are so obscure they are not even listed in the ASM metals handbook, and they list about 200 aluminum alloys.
So my guess is, if you REALLY need them, they are going to be very expensive, and probably made to order and take several months, with a large minimum order.
Thats the kind of thing the Government might specifiy, but most people would find a way to substitute an alloy that is actually available.

That said, assuming you are building parts for the CIA, or the the manned Mars mission, and gotta have it, you need to do materials search 101.
That means calling every aluminum supplier you can find, asking if they have it, and then asking if they know who does, and then calling them. A couple of hours on the phone, 6 degrees of seperation, and you should be able to find the names of every mill on the planet that makes the stuff.
Try Eagle- they specialize in oddball alloys- they even claim to stock 3 different 7000 series alloys. Not the ones you want, but its a start.
http://www.eaglealloys.com
Another place that stocks a lot of 7000 is AMI metals- http://www.amimetals.com/
I find for searching for oddball stuff, you gotta call, and bug people- ask for salemen, and keep asking for referrals til you find it. Emails and web browsing dont seem to work as well as old fashioned phone calls.

audrey
11-15-2004, 02:04 PM
In england they advertise all these custom swingarms that use these type aluminmumn alloys exclusively. My old man wants to build a frame out of this material or some swingarms. Audrey

Evan
11-15-2004, 02:06 PM
Are you building a race car? If so, what type?

[This message has been edited by Evan (edited 11-15-2004).]

Ries
11-15-2004, 03:27 PM
Well, in that case you need to figure out where they get them- should actually be easier in england than in the US, as there cant be that many aluminum suppliers in the UK- how long could it take to call em all, and say, "where is ??? buying their aluminum to make those swingarms?
Maybe you brits are very discreet, but here in the US, in a morning of phone calls, I could track down who the heck was supplying it- salesmen here love to gab about celebrity projects.

ibewgypsie
11-15-2004, 03:54 PM
I dislike chrome moly, it is nasty to weld because of the harmful fumes.

It is brittle if not properly annealed. 99% of the people working with it do not..

I wonder about aluminum specialty alloys.. Why are people using "that"

There is a guy in Canada I used to correspond with that works with titanuim a lot.. nOW there is a metal.. light strong.. expensive..

Not sure about the welding fumes thou..

David

------------------
David Cofer, Of:
Tunnel Hill, North Georgia

Michael Moore
11-15-2004, 03:55 PM
Hi Audrey,

IIRC it is 7020 that is typically used in the aftermarket aluminum frames/swing arms.

I think it regains some of the properties over a few days after welding.

cheers,
Michael

Ries
11-15-2004, 06:16 PM
I have been doing a little more research- 7005 is used for a lot of mountain bike frames, so it is available in tubing.
7039 is actually considered an aluminum armor plate, and is used by the US military for armoring vehicles.
7020 and 7021 seem to be often used as motorcycle swing arms.

Are there manufacturers in the UK that are making swing arms from this stuff? Or are they being imported from Italy, or Japan, or the US? Because if there are UK manufacturers, I would just call them up and ask them where they get it. Sometimes companies will be secretive and proprieatary, but often they will tell you, especially on a material like this, where they may sell a swing arm for say- $250, with 10 bucks worth of aluminum in it, but they are buying 5 tonnes at a time, and making the parts on a $100k cnc mill. And then they have it anodized, and a logo silkscreened on, and so on. Each process is cheap in quantity, but expensive for one piece. So they have no real fear that most people will be able to make their own. You would have to find the right person, an engineer, or someone who does the specifying.

Something like half of all the aluminum made today is coming out of russia. I know they are the commodity producers of simple common stuff like 6061, but I dont know if they are making specialty aircraft alloys like this. I think the french actually have some aluminum production going on, and 7000 series alloys are often used in aircraft, so it could be the stuff is being made for Airbus or Dassault, and trickling down to bicycles.

kenc
11-15-2004, 06:24 PM
David,
There's a lot of debate on whether Chromemoly actually does need to be post weld stress relieved. I'm not qualified to say one way or the other but those that are say that unless you hold the CrMo at temp for several hours then it does no good what so ever - so a quick red heat with a torch is useless (they say).
Check what Richard Finch has to say about it.
Ken

torker
11-15-2004, 06:59 PM
Audrey....maybe you should give these guys a call. They might be able to find it.
www.onlinemetals.com (http://www.onlinemetals.com)

ibewgypsie
11-16-2004, 09:03 AM
SORRY, not read up on other peoples ideals.. I try to do what works here.

You heat the chrome moly with a torch rosebud is the preferred method, then wrap it with cer-wool.. I thought everyone knew this? cooling slowly anneals the metal, cooling (quenching) rapidly hardens (tempers) it.

THE fumes are suspected to cause cancer.

I have some of that itchy stuff somewheres. You can get it at industrial insulation supply houses. It works for smelting furnaces too. good for about 3000 degrees if I remember correctly. I had it in a powdercoat furnace. Once while experimenting with the controller I got it accidently to 1400 degrees. Outside of the cabinet was still only warm to the touch. It is good stuff.

Pinging/brushing a weld lightly also relieves it. Not sure why. ALSO, don't weld up till it just lays together, don't force it into place then weld it.

Thin wall chrome moly tubing is strong. The welds done improperly are not. I had a friend running a modified and the rollbar fell and hit him in the head. He was then black-flagged off the track. He wanted to keep running. He had tig welded the tubing together, all beads looked good.

I prefer thicker wall DOM mild steel tubing. Harley frames are 1/8" wall seamed tubing by the way. Gusset, Gusset, Gusset. the way to make it strong.. use cardboard to cut templates for gussets it is cheaper.

People wanting to save weight use thinwall. They win. When someone tried to modify a street frame I made recently called me in the middle of the night. He asked me.. what is this stuff? 1/4 walled 1" seamless DOM mild tubing.. he had been trying to bend it for hours. Put a 144" stroker in that Jerry, it'll hold.

I can break a rock. Gimme enough horsepower to accellerate my mass and a heavy motorcycle. I'll break something. Mine still has grabby clutch problems.. Still on the stand.. I am building a house around it now.. Perhaps I should make it into a end table?
I got 4 days to get a roof on before the rain sets in again.. gotta go to the doctor ya'll...

David

[This message has been edited by ibewgypsie (edited 11-16-2004).]

kenc
11-16-2004, 06:08 PM
You said:
You heat the chrome moly with a torch rosebud is the preferred method, then wrap it with cer-wool.. I thought everyone knew this? cooling slowly anneals the metal, cooling (quenching) rapidly hardens (tempers) it.

Yup, "everyone" knows this, and it may just be total bulls**t is the point. Read Finch's book "Performance welding" and then form your own opinion. I ain't saying it's correct, just that it's not smart to believe something because "everyone" says it's correct.

Also, not sure what you mean by "I try to do what works here". Have you tried not annealing the joint? Have you seen cracking when you don't? Just curious.

[This message has been edited by kenc (edited 11-16-2004).]

ibewgypsie
11-16-2004, 07:30 PM
Yes.. I have saw cracking in the welds..

The racecar I spoke of was tig welded by a Plumber-steamfitter who knows how. He has been at it for a long time.. I don't profess to be GREAT. My tig welding sucks. Like I said before, make up for poor welds with a huge amount of gussets.. you can make a 24" of weld on a neck where there was just 3".. but then, that'd be heavy right?

Racecars and bikes bend like a airplane, if they are too stiff somewhere they transmit the torque elsewhere. It is not a exact science. SHifting load here, there, break a top motormount on a harley and ruin the cases.. The newest hotrods have a torque plate to go between the motor and tranny.. on the other side from the primary case..

ANYTHING you turn loose 500 hp (the modified) might break anything anywhere. It has to anchor the power somewhere. If the roll cage was in a bind when he welded it up, as it cooled it added to the pressure. He might have just fitted it up wrong, who knows? I know he did not heat wrap it.

Doc got me started doing the heat wrap thing. He is,has been a industrial insulator all his life. He used to build choppers in California when they was twelve feet long.. NOW it is easy comparitively to make a short bike with a normal rake to that. Amplified torque ratio of front end length..

THEY had a lil plywood jig flamecutter that worked too back then, ANYONE know what it was or where it came from? I was too busy having fun to notice back then.

With my bender, you have to torch the bends anyways, Like Thrud told me, it is not exact even thou I try. Each piece flexes differently and remembers differently. I want it perfect off the bender, it'll never happen, just like he said.
I saw a old man bending conduit once, he overbent a 90. whacked it on the floor and it was dead on.. gee.. I learned something. Metal has a memory too. I saw him take a small hammer and tap fittings then unscrew them with his hand also.. a taper thread wants to unscrew.. you just have to unjam it.

I need to unjam my neck now, we just brought a ton or more of 16' (rafters and ceiling joists) lumber up the hill to my house, even thou I had my 2" ratchet strap around it and pulled musical tight, I unloaded it in the middle of the road.. I am done for the night now.

AND, the colored steel roofing I bought for my addition, the green paint has peeled off it.. I will have to climb up there and look on the existing finished partion now.. CUSS moan and get them to honor the warranty..

WHY can't I just play in the shop for a living?

------------------
David Cofer, Of:
Tunnel Hill, North Georgia

Elninio
11-17-2004, 09:51 PM
Ive heard 7015 or watever is 70% stronger than the 6063 aluminum ?

torker
11-17-2004, 10:37 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Elninio:
Ive heard 7015 or watever is 70% stronger than the 6063 aluminum ?</font>

Now THAT is an amazing "factoid"

Joel
11-17-2004, 11:52 PM
Oh come on now torker, didnt you notice the question mark. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif
Yes, "watever" is AT LEAST 70% stronger than 6063.

Ries
11-18-2004, 12:00 AM
I just looked up 6061 t6, versus 7005, and the tensile and shear strengths are higher for 6061. 7016 is a little higher than 6061, but nowhere near 75%- more like 10% to 20%, depending on temper.

torker
11-18-2004, 01:01 AM
I'd like to get me some of that there 6063!
BTW...Elninio...how old are you?

Mike Burdick
11-18-2004, 02:25 AM
Elninio,

This table might answer some of your questions:

http://www.azom.com/details.asp?ArticleID=310