Casehardening w/ Cayanide ???

[WVADAMS]

Anyone know of or have experience with using cayanide to caseharden iron? Sodium or Potassium.
I have a chance to get an small barrell of it and would like to have EXPERIENCED users give ideas tips and share there knowledge. Please don't respond if you haven't done this process as I'm not interested in hearsay warnings or secondhand info. If you know of a website(not likely these days) that deals with this or any books please let me know. If you are going to give second hand warnings please read my profile and respond to me personally and I Will answer your concerns.

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Bill Adams
ThunderDrumMachineing
IN NE WA ST

[Thrud]

WVADAMS:
Your best source for material on this subject or other indepth metal related subjects is:

www.asminternational.org

They are the defacto engineering level authorities in the metal related fields. The books are not cheap.

If you need further information I suggest meeting with your local University Engineering & Chemistry departments to discuss your intentions & requirements.

[WVADAMS]

thanks for the pointer.

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Bill Adams
ThunderDrumMachineing
IN NE WA ST

[Weston Bye]

Never dealt with cyanide for hardening, but knew a machine shop owner that kept an open coffee can of it (dry powder) sitting in his office under his desk. He didn't know what else to do with it.....been there for years.

I use cyanide in gold and silver plating, and treat it with great respect.

Wes

[WVADAMS]

Thanks, Wes for your response. I to have used it before in the precious metals assaying end of it and have a very healthy respect for the stuff. I don't want to smell the roasted almonds and have to go get HO (Hydrogen Peroxide) shots in the belly or have to drink the stuff at home as a stopgap measure to get the 40min to a Doc. in the emergancy room, from way out here.

This guy who had the coffee can under his desk wasn't too smart or wasn't aware sufficiently of the dangers. Hope It was covered. Wonder if he had any mice in the place???

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Bill Adams
ThunderDrumMachineing
IN NE WA ST

[Weston Bye]

Bill

I recall the stuff in the coffee can being there for at least 12 years, in two different offices. Maybe it was weak. The guy said he used it occasionally, to harden a detail. "Just heat 'er up red and shove it in." Made me question the precision of most other work he did. I do recall that the guy was almost as disagreeable as cyanide. Maybe he kept it there for personality.

Wes

[WVADAMS]

Ya Wes I question his sanity also, the dust can migrate with the passing of any wind current ie GAS from the Flatalater(sp) End. I have some old texts that tell you how to use MOLTEN cayanide but they fail to tell the care and storage of the stuff when not in use. Even if they would give warnings on how not to let it go stale or sour I could infer from there what MAYBE the safe storage would be. I have also read about the Heat/Dip/Fire method and find it lacking in any saftey measures. I guess the OL timers didn't consider it a hazard in the way we do today. I think it's like Filling your own gas from the pump. Some states won't let you be a BIG BOY and do it yourself and others WILL. So we of the WILL States don't give it a thought while filling our tanks, we just automaticly do it, most generaly, in a safe manner and don't need to told what not to do and what to do.
Well thanks for your input, I thought there may be someone/s out there in HyperSpace that could offer some insight into this. I'll have to just keep searching till I find what I'm looking for.
Sincerely

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Bill Adams
ThunderDrumMachineing
IN NE WA ST

[trap]

not sure if you mis-spelled or if you are asking about something i know nothing about but if you mis-spelled i use to use that stuff to kill coyotees and harden metal. most guys that i knew that used that stuff aren't anymore ..... maybe the reason you haven't had much respose to your query.

[WVADAMS]

I would be interested in what your experience is in hardening metal. I have some old texts and they are vague in their precautions/saftey department. Most only say that it's very nasty stuff and leave it at that. So I have to assume the Writer was only Parroting words of those with experience.

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Bill Adams
ThunderDrumMachineing
IN NE WA ST

[trap]

used the stuff trapping with rigs they used to call "getters".

when case hardening metal would heat the metal to needed temp and then stick in a bucket of cyanide to case harden. would leave it in there for a day to cool. not very scientific but it worked for us . Probably not smart to do now a days, but that was yesterday.

[JCHannum]

Machinery's Handbook touches briefly on cyanide hardening. It is called superficial hardening as opposed to case hardening. Used when low carbon steel requires a very hard outer surface, but does not need high shock resisting qualities.
It involves immersing the part in bath of sodium/potassium cyanide at temperatures of 1000-1500 deg. F depend on mixture.
I would not like to deal with anything that hot and that poisonous in my shop. I suggest trying something safer, like duplicating the Manhattan Project.

[WVADAMS]

How did you know thats what I'm working on?
I need to caseharden the big generator shaft journal bearings on the shaft that runs in the castiron Babbitt bearings. Nothing modern will work I've tried and that's the last thing that I can figure out they did that I'm not so IT must be the SECRET that everybody else has overlooked!
Next on my list when I get that up and running is to go back and see if I can peek over Tesla's sholder and see how he made that Ford run off a Westinghouse ac motor in I think 1935???
But the damn bearings are the problem for now so that'll have to go in the RoundToIt file for now.
LOL

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Bill Adams
ThunderDrumMachineing
IN NE WA ST

[JCHannum]

Why are you trying to caseharden the shaft? If it is running in a Babbit bearing, mild steel will suffice.
If you are trying to case harden a shaft, all kind of nasty things are going to happen, resulting in the need to grind to size when completed, thus losing much of the case.
You may want to think about going to a chrome moly shaft if you are concerned about strength/hardness etc.

[matteo]

go to your local comunity college and ask
for the instructor that teaches heat treating
most likely he will tell you to heat it to
a certain degree and just stick it in the
stuff, forget all the warnings you hear, there just is not a nice way to do it! yes,
i had a can of it for years, it did not jump
out of the can and grab me. i did use it in
an area with a lot of ventilation, and yes
i used gloves and a face shield. i hope you
have enough sense to not grab the stuff and
rub it on your face! a lot of people don't!!! yes it is nasty stuff, but so is driving a car, you might also talk to your
local gunsmith they used to use it all the time!good luck matteo