OT: S-10 tranny & clutch noise

[J Tiers]

2000 S-10, still in good shape, about 120k miles. 2.2L, 5 speed, 4.10 rear end

1) medium-loud squeak or squeal when the clutch is engaged, particularly in hot weather.
No sign of clutch slipping, in fact it seems to hook up well, and the squeal is more the faster and more abruptly it engages.

Sound is VERY much like the sound a spring makes when it picks up a vibration and "rings", except that the noise starts and stops abruptly, with no after-ring. Has a strong resemblance to fingernails on chalkboard, too.

2) Tranny has made a fairly loud rumble similar to a bad bearing when clutch is engaged while idling, and tranny is in neutral. Presumably the tranny nose bearing.

Tranny was rebuilt under warranty for a different issue (metal shavings appeared), after which noise was initially gone, but came back in two weeks.

Yes, I have heard that tranny is "junk".... but it's what's on the truck, for 11 years, don't need to be told that again, but am interested in fixing it.

Truck is not "beat", hardly any rust, it's been good and remains good, but the dealer has no idea about these issues.... Got a bunch of mumbo-jumbo from the service mgr, who must have thought he was talking to either an idiot, or one of the "billet bumper" crowd..... (if there is a difference)

[A.K. Boomer]

"clutch engaged" is a tricky statement - some people look at that as the foot pedal depressed while some mechanics might look at it as the clutch disc is "engaged" (and this would mean the foot pedal is up)

so ------------ for what it's worth - mild pressure on the clutch starts to actuate the release bearing - say 1/4 pedal travel from the top - any noise???

if so its your release bearing (or some call it throw-out bearing)


Ok - - no noise ?
then press pedal all the way down to floor - do you have noise? if so then it's most likely the pilot bearing.

Ok ---- it's neither of these situations - it's when the tranny is in neutral and the pedal is all the way up -----yet when I press the pedal all the way down the noise goes away ---- sorry to say - neither the release bearing OR the pilot bearing is being used (if your clutch is adjusted properly)
and the noise is indeed coming from your transmission

if its more complex than this let me know and we can really pic this apart with some simple testing...

[saltmine]

Sounds like a pilot bearing. Or clutch fingers skidding on a partially seized throwout bearing. You didn't say which five-speed transmission you had, but assuming you have the four cylinder engine, it's most probably the Borg-Warner or the Isuzu five speed.
The Borg-Warner is a great transmission. It's worst problem is inexperienced "techs" working on them, not knowing how to set them up properly. The Isuzu is a robust Japanese transmission. Quirky, but usable.
Some S-10's use the New Venture transmission, which GM developed in co-operation with Chrysler. But, it is used mostly on trucks with the 4.3L, V-6.
It's quite robust, notchy shifting, and overbuilt, but seldom requires any work.

I'm guessing the negative comment about the transmission being junk applies to the Isuzu trans. The Borg-Warner still carries on under the name brand of Tremec (bought out by Tremec) It's a very simple, rugged, transmission. It is also used by all of the "big three" and several Japanese companies, especially where high power output totally destroys the average Japanese units. (yes, Willy, the Japanese do make some junk transmissions)

Both transmissions use a roller bearing pilot in the crankshaft, and the bearing is frequently overlooked during re-assembly, and seldom lubricated.
But, would only squeal when the clutch was fully depressed. More than once I've pulled five-speeds for noise problems and found the pilot bearing rusty and disintegrated. The Borg-Warner has two tapered roller bearings on the mainshaft that require pre-loading, during assembly. More often than not, the pre-load is not set correctly or the wrong lube is put in the transmission.
(Borg-Warner requires syncromesh oil or ATF to work properly)
Throwout bearings have been and still continue to be one of the most common sources of weird noises, and vibration in these trucks. I used to wonder how somebody could screw something so simple up...but they do.

Your description sounds like there are two things going on here. A loose gear/bearing stack in the transmission, and a lubrication starved throwout bearing. Pulling the transmission would be the first step toward finding the problem.

You said you got some "mumbo-jumbo" from your service manager....common practice, especially at dealers.. He's using the old adage, "If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle them with BS."

[DICKEYBIRD]

+2 on the dry pilot bearing syndrome. Seen it many times. Happens at a certain point during clutch engagement before the flywheel & 1st motion shaft (input shaft) match speeds.

It's probably rusty, dusty and otherwise tango-uniform so definitely jerk it out and replace it with a new one. Lubing would fix it temporarily.

[Highpower]

Tranny was rebuilt under warranty for a different issue (metal shavings appeared), after which noise was initially gone, but came back in two weeks.

Sounds like it's still under warranty then. Take it back and tell them you want it fixed - on their dime. If you get more mumbo jumbo, your next talk should be with the regional service manager. That will do the trick 90% of the time.

[J Tiers]

1) "engaged" means my foot is off the pedal Everything has slammed together and is rotating.

2) One noise is slightly before, or possibly just after my foot has let up during a start, (squeal) and clutch is just matching speed, or just HAS matched speed.... it lasts a good drawn-out count of "one", so it isn't precise.
Has to be a fairly abrupt start to do it, and it helps if it's hot. NEVER does it if the weather is wet.

Mechanics didn't find it, I had to show the shop manager (a non-stop talker) the noise, and he tried initially to tell me I was squealing the tires...... FAIL! Eventually the torrent of words got down to a "I don't know exactly what it is, there's no inspection plate on that tranny so I can't look easily, but it doesn't sound like you need to fix it now".

I almost put it down to a belt squealing as the engine slows when starting up, but there is just one big belt, which, while a bit glazed-looking, is tight enough, and never makes any known "regular' belt noise.

3) the other noise is with the tranny in neutral, idling. Quiet with clutch pedal down, noisy after I let it off..... Nose bearing mebbe, not much is turning in the tranny at that point.

Dont you worry yer head about the warranty..... that was a long time ago. It's been making this noise more-or-less unchanged since 2 weeks after the repair, which means several years...... it's just goofy.

IIRC per tranny ID, this 5 speed tranny runs engine oil , and shouldn't be towed drive wheels down.

[saltmine]

I must have missed something, either that, or they changed to another transmission since I retired.

In all of the years I worked on S-10's I never heard of any that used engine oil (motor oil) in the transmission.

I know some use 90wt gear oil, and most use either automatic transmission fluid (ATF) or that very expensive syncromesh oil...which could be mistaken for motor oil, except for the price.

The only transmission I ever heard of that used engine oil was the old Chrysler M-6 (Tip-Toe Shift), semi-automatic transmission from the early 1950's. But it only used engine oil in the fluid coupling, and not the gearbox.

They normally recommend any late model car or truck be towed with the rear wheels off the ground, due to the fact that they lack a lube pump to keep things properly oiled while towing.
Some of the 4 X 4's today actually do have a lube pump in the rear of the transfer case. They recommend these be towed with the transfer case in neutral (if it has that function). Of course, to avoid litigation, most tow companies are going to rollbacks and rollback combo trucks to eliminate the chance of damaging any car or truck.

[A.K. Boomer]

The only transmission I ever heard of that used engine oil was the old Chrysler M-6 (Tip-Toe Shift), semi-automatic transmission from the early 1950's. But it only used engine oil in the fluid coupling, and not the gearbox.

Standard issue on just about every manual tranny honda out there.

[A.K. Boomer]

1) "engaged" means my foot is off the pedal Everything has slammed together and is rotating.

ahh see - that's why I asked you to distinguish between the two because "someone" (by guessing pilot bearing) either just plain got it wrong or did not understand what engaged meant... Im good at seeing trouble before it starts

2) One noise is slightly before, or possibly just after my foot has let up during a start, (squeal) and clutch is just matching speed, or just HAS matched speed.... it lasts a good drawn-out count of "one", so it isn't precise.
Has to be a fairly abrupt start to do it, and it helps if it's hot. NEVER does it if the weather is wet.

Mechanics didn't find it, I had to show the shop manager (a non-stop talker) the noise, and he tried initially to tell me I was squealing the tires...... FAIL! Eventually the torrent of words got down to a "I don't know exactly what it is, there's no inspection plate on that tranny so I can't look easily, but it doesn't sound like you need to fix it now".


I almost put it down to a belt squealing as the engine slows when starting up, but there is just one big belt, which, while a bit glazed-looking, is tight enough, and never makes any known "regular' belt noise.

Boy JT - I really think you at least need to go through the process of elimination with your belt theory as it sounds like youv answered your own question - You at the very least need to eliminate it so you can move on,
"has to be fairly abrupt to start with" - "helps when it's hot" - "never does it when the weather is wet"
this sounds allot like the unpredictability of rubber behavior.
simple solution of elimination --- drive vehicle to where it's consistently acting up --- spray belt dressing on belt and re-test, you at least need to eliminate this factor - there are some ancillary components that store quite a bit of inertia (just ask Sir John --- ohhhhw that was uncalled for) they may not seem all that heavy - but when driven at a 2 or 3 to 1 ratio it doesn't take much and this matches your symptoms precisely

3) the other noise is with the tranny in neutral, idling. Quiet with clutch pedal down, noisy after I let it off..... Nose bearing mebbe, not much is turning in the tranny at that point.

To some degree and depending on design this can be totally normal from day one - and actually depending on design just about everything can be "turning" inside the trans in neutral - there's a difference between gears running and gears engaged and in many manual transmissions most of the gears are running when your foot is off the clutch and the trans is in neutral - their just not engaged that's all ----- if the sycro's still act good and you don't get any growling throughout the gear ranges under torque your probably still good to go as that tests the main shaft and countershafts bearings from front to back - if it's a high mileage trans and it indeed runs on engine oil and you feel that the gears have gained a little bit of clearance over the years you have the god given right to throw in some 20W50 when the vehicle calls for 10W40 -- I do it all the time with older hound dawgs that have logged over a quarter million+ - so you take a slight (very slight) hit in fuel economy - so what - its worth the extra cushion, or use whatever it calls for and add a pint of 80/90 wt.
It will help slightly with the running noise that your hearing and add protection to the looser tolerances...

[Highpower]

Standard issue on just about every manual tranny honda out there.

Up until July '96 anyway.

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