Help selecting rust blue solution

[radkins]

I am going to re-blue (again!) my High Wall replica and I plan to buy a different rust Blue solution from Brownells. The "fast" rust blue I tried was given to me by a friend and likely the problem of being uneven is that it was contaminated by him using it directly from the bottle so I am not going to fault the brand. These are the two I am considering, the first is the classic "slow" rust bluing and the second is another "fast" or express blue solution.


http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=2...SSIC-RUST-BLUE


http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=8...EXPRESS-BLUE-1


Any opinions on these or any others?

[Alphawolf45]

I use Pilkingtons rust blue but I see that Brownells is out of it.. I havent tried either of your choices...I have also used Laurel Mountain forge Brown and Degreaser for both browning and blueing ,seems works a little faster than the Pilkingtons http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=7...ROWN-DEGREASER

[Alphawolf45]

I dont know that this may be causing you any trouble but I will mention it what what little its worth. I seen your pictures and seen how slick and smooth and shiny your receiver was... I am guessing you buffed your parts using a buffing wheel and buffing compound..I used to use buffing compound and when I quit using it I have had better results with rust bluing (and color case hardening) ..Probably was getting too smooth for the rust bluing to get an easy bite on the metal but maybe some of the compound getting into pores of the metal also gives trouble. I dont know....I have gone to polishing no smoother than 320 grit using wet and dry sandpaper prior to rust bluing.

[radkins]

How does the Laurel Forge compare to Pilkington's as far as color? The Pilkington solution is what I had decided on but as you say they are out of it, however the reviews posted on Brownells site seem to indicate that the Classic rust Blue (which was also out of stock until recently) is just Brownells house brand of the Pilkington formula and apparently works the same. The problem I encountered with the rust blue I was using was uneven coloring and an odd grey color instead of a nice blue/black but I am thinking the solution was contaminated, the guy who gave it to me was having the same problem after his first job which turned out nice. There is quite a bit of the solution left in the bottle but after reading the directions I find it warns about returning unused solution to the bottle and after questioning him about this I discovered he did just that. I have wondered about the "fast" rusting solutions like the Laurel Forge, Belgian Blue and now this "Express Blue", are the slow blues better color or durability?

[radkins]

I dont know that this may be causing you any trouble but I will mention it what what little its worth. I seen your pictures and seen how slick and smooth and shiny your receiver was... I am guessing you buffed your parts using a buffing wheel and buffing compound..I used to use buffing compound and when I quit using it I have had better results with rust bluing (and color case hardening) ..Probably was getting too smooth for the rust bluing to get an easy bite on the metal but maybe some of the compound getting into pores of the metal also gives trouble. I dont know....I have gone to polishing no smoother than 320 grit using wet and dry sandpaper prior to rust bluing.

I think we were typing at the same time,

The shinny finish was done prior to the hot blue attempt which yielded an unsatisfactory reddish color which several people have told me is because of the 4140 alloy, it was super slick and would have been an excellent finish except the reddish hue was just plain awful! The rust blue attempt was done on a finish of 800 grit and no buffing compound was used, several of the people who looked at the parts thought they looked good and I would probably have been satisfied with them until I looked at a Browning rifle a friend did with the Pilkington solution, deep rich blue/black with a very light gloss- that is what I am looking for!

[RWO]

I have used Laurel Mtn. Forge solution for many years. It has worked well for the most part and the detergent that it contains is a huge plus in rust bluing.
It allows bare hand handling during application and also during carding.

Color is almost exclusively a function of the alloy. Plain carbon steel gives a nice deep blue black in 4 rusting cycles ( about 2 days with a humidity controlled damp box). Higher alloys like 4140 usually tend to be grayer/blacker and less blue. I attribute this to the chromium in the steel. Case-hardened parts will blue, but the color is poor and the oxide film is shallow, leading to poor durability. The only gun I ever had that was basically unblueable was the frame of a Nazi P-38. It would turn gray but the oxide would flake off the sharp edges leaving bare areas. I tried different rusting times and was very careful when carding, but the results were always the same. The slide and barrel on the same gun came out a beautiful deep blue. Go figure.

I never polished higher than 320 grit and never, not ever. used a buffing wheel. Polished parts will blue more quickly and more uniformly if the polish job is fresh. Another aid is a quick dip in 50-50 solution of muriatic acid and water to leave a clean, active surface for the initial application of solution to bite on.

Uniform hunidity and temp. will help. I built a damp box that contained a pot of water over a dimmer controlled flood lamp, an air circulator fan and another small incandescent lamp for air heating. 90° and about 80% humidity worked well for me. I typically rusted parts for about 4 hrs., boiled for 5 min. and then carded. If you use a fine wire (.005" or smaller) wheel, don't run it faster than 500 RPM ( drill press). Distilled water in the boiling tank is a must.

RWO

[radkins]

Thanks for the info, the alloy is 4140 so it could be that maybe I will never be able to achieve the blue/black hue I wanted, no matter however the shade I had before was not bad it was mostly the mottling that occurred that looked bad.

[38_Cal]

The Brownells brand Classic Rust Blue was back-engineered from Pilkington's formula shortly before they "downsized" me. At the time, Pilkington's products were unobtainable, and it didn't look as though the company was going to be able to ship anything.

Polishing is important with any rust blue product. Never go finer than fresh 400 grit wet-or-dry paper. As has been pointed out, 320 grit is better. Keep all your polishing marks going the appropriate direction. Make sure that your carding wheel or brush or steel wool is degreased...you can introduce oil into the system from it, too.

David

[radkins]

I went to 800 grit wet sanded, part of the problem maybe?

[38_Cal]

I went to 800 grit wet sanded, part of the problem maybe?

Very much so! Stop at 400 grit. You'll be building up a coat of rust with each application of solution, though it will be very fine-grained. Anything brighter than 400 grit is wasted time, energy and abrasive. Some steels will need more coats than other types/heat treats to start looking good. Remember that the old formulas had some ingredients that are no longer available (many used sweet spirits of nitre) and will not give the same look as the stuff we have now.

David