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Thread: Pilot Bearing Fit on Ford 3.0L - Can't Get the Crank in My Lathe

  1. #21
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    Wait a minute - and you gave him the credit for that? lol


    I do agree with you Cutting about the application for the needle bearings being wrong,

    geeze think of long trips where someones emptying out a tankful in 5th gear and never shifts...

    I like the idea of plain bearing in this application... needle bearing are great where there's always lube and always motion, but this is an area that "fretts" under pressure,,,

    years ago I heard of brand new cars being shipped cross country by train and when they showed up all the wheel bearing would be shot to hell,,, sitting in one spot and fretting under load causes Brinelling, even with new grease surrounding the balls they would not get lubed at the contact points and as the train wiggled the balls would dig pockets into the races....

    I personally found this out over three decades ago with my BMW 1600-2
    I lowered the car to the exact height to where the rear U-joints did not have to work at all (even though it was a 68 it had independent rear sus.) - thought I had my act together as a kid - good handling and more power to the rear wheels all while making the joints last longer --- well - two out of three ain't bad - lol the joints were to aligned and brinelled in short order due to not getting lube and rarely changing position...
    Last edited by A.K. Boomer; 04-20-2013 at 08:05 PM.

  2. #22
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    This seems like an opportune time to tell my 45 year old story about a bronze pilot bushing in the crankshaft of a 1955 Pontiac that I could not pull out any way I tried. Fortunately, there was an experienced mechanic next door who also had an oxy/acet torch . He slid under the car, quickly burned the bronze bushing out, and left not a trace of damaged metal in the crankshaft . He didn't charge me a penny, and I still remember the admiration I had for his skill.

  3. #23
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    As for running the truck without a pilot bushing (or bearing)......I once owned a 1958 Chevy Impala Convertible. It had a hulking 348 Chevy V-8 in it, and the infamous TurboGlide transmission (Slip & slide with TurboGlide! No gears, no waiting). Unfortunately, the transmission wasn't up to the abuse inflicted on it by the 348 and failed. Being resourceful, I replaced the trans with a PowerGlide 2-speed transmission, but the rear trans mount wouldn't line up, so I just left it resting on the crossmember. Not long after, I had the opportunity to sell it to a fellow who had apparently seen "American Graffiti" and....even though my Impala was red, he decided he had to have it....cash money. Some time later, he was cruising Van Nuys Blvd. with it, and got into a "street race" with some clown. As they passed the funeral home, he launched the car across the railroad tracks....about 4 feet in the air. On touchdown, most of the bellhousing bolts sheared off, dumping the transmission on the ground. After some heated explaining to Van Nuys City Police, he had the car towed home, and somewhere along the line, decided to have his mechanic friend replace the PowerGlide with a Muncie "Rock Crusher" four-speed manual transmission.
    I suppose his buddy had the usual problems doing the conversion (I never heard about most of it....he was still mad at me because the transmission fell out, and he got a ticket)
    Anyway, when it came time to put the transmission in, the mechanic discovered that it stopped short about an inch before it seated properly. A quick investigation revealed that in GM's infinite wisdom, only manual transmission 348's had the pilot bushing bore machined into the crankshaft....the auto trans models were blank. Since the guy who owned the car and the mechanic didn't want to pull the engine, and remove the crankshaft to machine the correct bore, they did the next best thing.....They used an oxy-acetylene torch to cut the pilot off of the transmission. The transmission fit, everything worked, end of story.....Well, it wasn't all puppy dogs and rainbows... Without the support of the pilot bushing on the end of the shaft, the clutch disc would wear out at an alarming rate....about once every two months. And, once in a while, the front bearing in the transmission would fail, making a costly mess. I guess some pilot bushings (bearings) are there for a purpose.
    Last edited by saltmine; 04-20-2013 at 09:17 PM.
    No good deed goes unpunished.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by saltmine View Post
    As for running the truck without a pilot bushing (or bearing)......I once owned a 1958 Chevy Impala Convertible. It had a hulking 348 Chevy V-8 in it, and the infamous TurboGlide transmission (Slip & slide with TurboGlide! No gears, no waiting). Unfortunately, the transmission wasn't up to the abuse inflicted on it by the 348 and failed. Being resourceful, I replaced the trans with a PowerGlide 2-speed transmission, but the rear trans mount wouldn't line up, so I just left it resting on the crossmember. Not long after, I had the opportunity to sell it to a fellow who had apparently seen "American Graffiti" and....even though my Impala was red, he decided he had to have it....cash money. Some time later, he was cruising Van Nuys Blvd. with it, and got into a "street race" with some clown. As they passed the funeral home, he launched the car across the railroad tracks....about 4 feet in the air. On touchdown, most of the bellhousing bolts sheared off, dumping the transmission on the ground. After some heated explaining to Van Nuys City Police, he had the car towed home, and somewhere along the line, decided to have his mechanic friend replace the PowerGlide with a Muncie "Rock Crusher" four-speed manual transmission.
    I suppose his buddy had the usual problems doing the conversion (I never heard about most of it....he was still mad at me because the transmission fell out, and he got a ticket)
    Anyway, when it came time to put the transmission in, the mechanic discovered that it stopped short about an inch before it seated properly. A quick investigation revealed that in GM's infinite wisdom, only manual transmission 348's had the pilot bushing bore machined into the crankshaft....the auto trans models were blank. Since the guy who owned the car and the mechanic didn't want to pull the engine, and remove the crankshaft to machine the correct bore, they did the next best thing.....They used an oxy-acetylene torch to cut the pilot off of the transmission. The transmission fit, everything worked, end of story.....Well, it wasn't all puppy dogs and rainbows... Without the support of the pilot bushing on the end of the shaft, the clutch disc would wear out at an alarming rate....about once every two months. And, once in a while, the front bearing in the transmission would fail, making a costly mess. I guess some pilot bushings (bearings) are there for a purpose.
    Saltmine, I pulled a 348 turboglide out of an Impala and put a manual transmission behind it and stuck it in a 58 GMC pickup. It was machined for the pilot bushing.
    James

  5. #25

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    J.Randlall, its possible your engine may have came out of a straight drive setup before being installed in the Impala. Or it could have been a replacement engine which may have came drilled so it would work in whatever setup they installed it in. Or they may have just been out of none drill cranks that's day when they built the Impala. Either you will see this many times in all makes, some will, and some want have the drilled hole. I have even seen the hole drilled, but not to the full diameter needed for the bushing. Go figure, why would they even drill it out part of the way, and not finish it.



    Ranger fix.

    Use the bushing and not the bearing for this repair. If you get any miss alignment at all the bushing will handle it much better than the roller bearing. Be sure and put a good bevel on the front edge of the ID of the bushing and if the input shaft of the trans does not have a good bevel give it one to boot. Even if you get it dead straight and centered there is no guarantee that the tranny/bellhousing will bolt up 100% centered anyway. They make offset dowels for this to center the trans ( mostly for racing setups) because they are about always off to some degree.


    You know, it would not be out of reach to built a make shift lathe to bolt to the back of that engine/bellhousing to recut that pilot hole (use the engines power to turn it, but it needs a starter and this cant be done on all makes). Even just a good drill guide to run a bigger drill through it to make it round for a custom bushing is possible.

    The right product to cement the new bushing in place will work though if its done right. Getting everything clean of oil will be very important and the use of paint thinner (lacquer thinner works good) would be a good idea. As was already mentioned there is not a lot of pressure on these bushings and it was a bad idea for them to even use a bearing to begin with. The repair could end up being even stronger/better than it was to begin with.


    Just do not let the weight of the tranny hang with the input shaft in the bushing. It would be best to make two guide rods/pins that you could screw into the tranny/bellhousing bolt holes. This way you can slide the trans on the two guide rods and slide it all the way to the engine and install two more bolts to keep any tranny weight from pulling down . Of course you will need to thread the end of these guide rods to match the tranny hold down bolts, and they can not be too long or you want be able to get the bellhousing started on them for hit the firewall/tranny tunnel. But all it takes is a couple of inches worth to give support. Slot the outside end of them so you can use a screwdriver to remove them if they want turn out by hand.


    Jess

  6. #26
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    You might be right, Jess. If memory serves, replacement crankshafts all had pilot bushing bores, since they didn't know what vehicle the crank was going into. BTW, most 348 engines were destined for Chevy and GMC trucks. The GM "Targetmaster" 348 & 409 long-block engines were also bored for a pilot bushing, for the same reason. Yes, it looks like a partially bored pilot, but it's actually a concentric bore for the centering hub of the torque converter, which is a little bigger and not quite as deep. Hanging the transmission from the bearing shouldn't be a problem, especially if the clutch is installed. Somebody mentioned that some cars don't even have pilot bearings. That is true, but the input shaft bearings are larger and spaced far enough apart so that they don't need a pilot bearing....Front wheel drive cars usually don't have a pilot bearing. Another engine they used to like leaving the pilot bushing bore out of was the series of Oldsmobile V-8's, since very few, if any, went into trucks or manual transmission cars.(Yeah, I know, the 442....but most of them were automatics.)

    Oh, by the way....I don't know if anybody mentioned it, but most modern day crankshafts are harder than owl's beaks, so attempting to drill one in the truck might actually get interesting.
    Last edited by saltmine; 04-21-2013 at 12:02 AM.
    No good deed goes unpunished.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by A.K. Boomer View Post
    Wait a minute - and you gave him the credit for that? lol


    HAHA I didn't even noticed I quoted the wrong post! I fixed it. lol
    Andy

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by saltmine View Post
    You might be right, Jess. If memory serves, replacement crankshafts all had pilot bushing bores, since they didn't know what vehicle the crank was going into. BTW, most 348 engines were destined for Chevy and GMC trucks. The GM "Targetmaster" 348 & 409 long-block engines were also bored for a pilot bushing, for the same reason. Yes, it looks like a partially bored pilot, but it's actually a concentric bore for the centering hub of the torque converter, which is a little bigger and not quite as deep. Hanging the transmission from the bearing shouldn't be a problem, especially if the clutch is installed. Somebody mentioned that some cars don't even have pilot bearings. That is true, but the input shaft bearings are larger and spaced far enough apart so that they don't need a pilot bearing....Front wheel drive cars usually don't have a pilot bearing. Another engine they used to like leaving the pilot bushing bore out of was the series of Oldsmobile V-8's, since very few, if any, went into trucks or manual transmission cars.(Yeah, I know, the 442....but most of them were automatics.)

    Oh, by the way....I don't know if anybody mentioned it, but most modern day crankshafts are harder than owl's beaks, so attempting to drill one in the truck might actually get interesting.
    While Jess had a very plausible theory, I knew the car from brand new and the lady that owned it, she wrecked it badly once too where it probably should have been totaled, but they fixed it. The engine was never touched until I pulled it, had about 60,000 on it. Thinking about the subject a little harder, I helped a friend change a 60 Impala 348 from automatic to standard, and was on site when a 58 Impala was converted, both were drilled for the bushing. Interesting about the Targetmaster line, I wasn't aware of the name existing till about 5 yrs. after they quit making the W engine.
    Last edited by J. Randall; 04-21-2013 at 10:21 PM. Reason: spelling

  9. #29
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    Instead of arguing about whether the engine was original or if it had been worked on, well, I've seen all manner of things come off of a GM assembly line. Sometimes we had a hard time finding shop manuals that covered some of them. The "Targetmaster" line of engines were all built in one of three plants. Tonawanda, New York, Parma, Mexico, and Ontario, Canada. The original line covered quite a few GM cars & trucks. Contrary to popular belief, every engine was brand new, right out of the crate. Only run long enough to insure it was properly assembled. The original early '70's "Targetmaster" engines were painted orange (Chevy orange). Around 1980, they were painted a somewhat light blue, similar to the color of the engines on the production line. By this time, the line consisted of several 4-cylinder engines, some V-6's, and the full line of V-8's & diesels. In the early '80's, GM started painting the "Goodwrench" engines gloss black. Still, the best engines you could get were made in Mexico. Unfortunately, in the late '80's and early '90's GM contracted with an outside vendor to supply remanufactured engines. These engines were never popular with mechanics. Mainly because you had a 40% chance the reman engine you installed (regardless of how carefully you installed it) would fail. As far as I know, GM still manufactures the entire line of "Goodwrench" engines. I understand GM Performance has taken up the task of supplying new LS series engines, too. Sadly, the 348 / 409 Chevy truck engines were discontinued in the mid '80's. I recall a good customer of mine buying the last two 409's we could find, for his old Chevy dump truck.
    No good deed goes unpunished.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by saltmine View Post
    Front wheel drive cars usually don't have a pilot bearing.

    I have no idea about the Chebby's - but I don't know where you come up with the statement from above,

    maybe volkswagons but they are not the only Front wheel drive cars out there, 95% of the front wheel drive cars I work on have pilot bearings...

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