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Thread: OT, anyone want to settle an automotive spindle debate?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattiJ View Post
    Spindles, spigots and wheel bolts... maybe a picture is usefull:
    picture is useful - thanks for sending me an entire breakdown of a similar Dana front end without the word "spigot" in it...


    this diagram was created by "normal folk" not to be confused with any of the British car manufacturers that do indeed have their very own "lango"

    Over here, where the website exists and parts are made for the "spindle" in question --- this is what we call a "spigot"

    even found one that would make a Frenchman proud (not), just so people don't think im picking on just the Britts alone... who in fact are the ones responsible for making this spigot potentially insulting to others...

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-lEwvLsExQX...g-faucetLg.jpg

  2. #22
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    It would depend on how the wheel and hub offset are in relation to "D". If the center of the wheel (tire tread) is over "D" then the bolts don't take any force. Until you turn and the spindle end is pushed up or down by side force on the tire. If the center of the tire is not over "D" then there is some bending force on the spindle all the time and the bolts have some load all the time.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by wdtom44 View Post
    It would depend on how the wheel and hub offset are in relation to "D". If the center of the wheel (tire tread) is over "D" then the bolts don't take any force. Until you turn and the spindle end is pushed up or down by side force on the tire. If the center of the tire is not over "D" then there is some bending force on the spindle all the time and the bolts have some load all the time.
    True. But even when side loads are present the bolts aren't carrying weight, only tension.

    Mike

  4. #24
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    The OP's question would seriously need to clarify to give an exact answer, carrying the weight when? during normal driving or having a good enough press to just set it down gently on the ground with no deviations or offsets what-so-ever

    personally I would think the question was not "trick" and had to do with how a spindle gets used in everyday driving and in that case once again BOTH are needed or catastrophic failure is imminent...

  5. #25
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    This became an interesting thread, learned quite a bit.

    Not a trick question, it was regarding normal operating conditions and use.

    The discussion came up because a friend swapped rear axles and wanted to cut D off a spindle from another axle (early model Dana 30 I believe and not enough material to turn it down) then run rotor, hub etc from that axle so the lug patterns matched. His argument was that the bolts supported the weight and D only served to locate it.
    My thought was that since D is machined for a tight fit in the spindle, (Don't need a press, but you won't install or remove it with hand pressure ) it took a large part in supporting the weight.
    I did consider the clamping effect of the bolts, but thought they served primarily to retain the spindle. (on the Dana 35, there are only 5, think image above is of a D44 for 3/4 ton+) Since the bolts are small and have plenty of clearance in the spindle, the clamp would be performing 100% of locating and support effects, and I couldn't see them being primary support.

  6. #26
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    Of course you are right MikeL Tom

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by kendall View Post
    This became an interesting thread, learned quite a bit.

    Not a trick question, it was regarding normal operating conditions and use.

    The discussion came up because a friend swapped rear axles and wanted to cut D off a spindle from another axle (early model Dana 30 I believe and not enough material to turn it down) then run rotor, hub etc from that axle so the lug patterns matched. His argument was that the bolts supported the weight and D only served to locate it.
    My thought was that since D is machined for a tight fit in the spindle, (Don't need a press, but you won't install or remove it with hand pressure ) it took a large part in supporting the weight.
    I did consider the clamping effect of the bolts, but thought they served primarily to retain the spindle. (on the Dana 35, there are only 5, think image above is of a D44 for 3/4 ton+) Since the bolts are small and have plenty of clearance in the spindle, the clamp would be performing 100% of locating and support effects, and I couldn't see them being primary support.
    It would likely work satisfactorily if the holes are opened up for as large a bolt as will fit and the hole/bolt clearance is as little as possible. The bolts need to be high grade of course and have none or as little thread as possible in the hole.

  8. #28
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    Although as important as the pilot on the hub and the receiving hole is to the assembly, one can't underestimate the role of clamp force to the integrity of this assembly. In many ways it is almost identical to the bolt and hub retention methods used in a hub piloted wheel fastening system.
    As an example, looking up the total clamp load applied to five 1/2" x 13 tpi threaded wheel fasteners, one comes up with a total clamp load of 72,000 lbs. clamping force holding the wheel against the hub when lubed fastener components are torqued to 90 ft. lbs.
    Although in a worst case scenario the studs would come into play in keeping the wheel on, they normally do not play the major role in supporting the weight of the vehicle nearly as much as a stud piloted wheel.
    Both elements are still a factor though in either case.
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  9. #29
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    I was at a line in Asia a few weeks ago where smaller versions of these spindles were being forged,
    but on another tough problem and freezing cold, didn't look at them closely!
    These automated lines are often in unheated buildings, doors wide open, and no facilities for the equipment vendors, not even a seat or workspace.

    My assumptions:
    I think that the fitment to the knuckle is not a classical "spigot and recess" as I know it,
    because surely (?) the fit will not be with interference.
    ( for example there are tolerances on the pcd and the spindle flange joint has to be repairable when rusted.)
    As forged, the hub "D" is tapered and radiused, and i don't know if that feature is subsequently turned.

    The Caddy here has 3 bolts, look like M10 or so.
    What is the knuckle made of - Cast steel?. It extends upwards as a long, thin arm to the upper ball joint.
    I did not measure that arm yet as it was a bit slushy here today.

    If spindle hub M10 bolts Class 12.9 : @ 65% proof, Tension = 36.6 kn ( Torque wrench to 73n.m)
    M10 minor dia = 8.8 mm approx. csa = 61e-6 m^2 approx Simple Stress in bolts =:= 600 MPa

    All the "bang for the buck" is close to the bolts as we know.

    So with the above I made in QuickField a simplified 2D planar model of just 2 bolts using approximately the dimensions Kendall provided.
    https://app.box.com/s/l2n2pe05t4ec11pbipbd5mllbbxnkdx8
    I ran a few scenarios, not finished as the thin upper arm is probably dominating the stresses, so I will extend the model.
    So far it looks like that wheel impact force, with the thin upper arm, would be flexing/deforming the engine compartment weldment,
    before the (3) M10 bolts are in trouble.

  10. #30
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    Think I answered this debate to my own satisfaction.
    Picked up an 89 jeep wrangler quite a while ago with broken gears in the front axle. It got around well enough in 2wd that I've been using it for play and to haul my firewood trailer etc, and haven't been gentle with it.
    All the parts for a rebuild came in a while ago, and since it was in the mid 50s today I tore into the axle.
    The hub/spindle on that is this style (can't find anything with dimensions):
    https://www.amazon.com/Timken-HA5974.../dp/B000BZAF36

    The driver's side only had one bolt (of 3) in it, that bolt was loose enough that I could get a finger tip between the bolt head and knuckle. Still took some persuasion with a 2lb hammer and punch to get the hub out.

    Think the bolts are supposed to provide clamping force, but the pilot seems capable of supporting the weight alone.

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