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Thread: Using the lathe turret and tooling for the first time

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by J Tiers View Post
    With regard to alignment of the turret, the best I can determine is that the original tool mount holes are about 0.003 "out" horizontally, and about 0.006" vertically (high).
    -In my opinion, leave it. That's damn good for a turret, especially a well-used one, and especially for one that likely wasn't original to that particular machine.

    As you note below, the majority of tools don't care whether the bore of the turret is on center, as they either make their own center or can be adjusted to center.

    The two locations that were bored out larger seem to be somewhat more "out", but those need to be bored to 3/4", and sleeved, since they don't fit anything now.
    -Leave them at 3/4", as that opens up the range of options for factory tooling. I know you've said you don't like eBay, but if you're patient, you can get a great deal of off-the-shelf stuff for cheap. Plus there's the occasional stuff you can't easily make yourself, like die heads and knurling tools.

    I bored mine out to 1", and then made a series of sleeves for both 3/4" and 5/8", as well as buying the occasional factory reducer.

    I do not know if I should try to get them better aligned now, or tolerate the error and wait until I work on the lathe bed (or possibly get another one).
    -As above, I suggest not worrying about the alignment, as it's more than acceptable for most work as it is. But if you do insist on trying to center it, don't bother boring the holes- or any other not easily reversible mod- until you've sorted the bed, either replacing it, reworking it, or deciding to leave it alone.

    Any work on the bed, or bed replacement, will change the error. The bed is known to have about 0.004" wear now.
    -The nice thing about turrets is that bed wear is irrelevant. The worst thing it can do is maybe tilt the turret assembly "downhill" towards the headstock, which would be something to worry about, except .004" equals virtually zero deviation at the typical short lengths of the average turret-made piece.

    I need to do a different setup to see if the ram travel itself is parallel to the bed.
    -I know what you meant, but it's of course only important if the ram travel is parallel to the spindle.

    But any drills etc that are in the bore of tool shanks, like a drill in the knee tool, would need an offset bushing to be on center. That would be annoying to have to do.
    -Not necessarily. Your error is very minor, and a center drill will "bore" a centered hole in the workpiece anyway- that's the nature of using a drill in a lathe.

    Doc.
    Doc's Machine. (Probably not what you expect.)

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by J Tiers View Post
    If it were LOW, I could shim it up, as it is a clamp-on bed turret. High is a different issue, I am fresh out of those shims that have a negative thickness........and my suppliers are all out of stock.....
    Jerry, you might just be in luck. I see there's recent research on some particles with negative mass so those shims with negative thickness ought to be right around the corner.
    .
    "I am often asked how radio works. Well, you see, wire telegraphy is like a very long cat. You yank his tail in New York and he meows in Los Angeles. Do you understand this? Now, radio is exactly the same, except that there is no cat." : Albert Einstein

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Nickel View Post
    -In my opinion, leave it. That's damn good for a turret, especially a well-used one, and especially for one that likely wasn't original to that particular machine.

    As you note below, the majority of tools don't care whether the bore of the turret is on center, as they either make their own center or can be adjusted to center.
    ....
    My kind of advice! Thank you.

    Makes sense, and goes along with what I was starting to figure.
    Last edited by J Tiers; 04-20-2017 at 12:17 AM.
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  4. #14
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    Well I ran into another irritating issue.

    The full travel on the ram is 4 3/8" (spec is 4 1/4", OK). BUT, the ram HAS TO travel at least 2 1/8" to reset the mechanism that turns the turret. Shorter than that, and it won't automatically turn the turret, AND it cannot be turned by hand.

    What that seems to do is to mess up the scheme if there are tools that are short, AND tools that are rather long in the same setup. For example, the existing releasing tap holder, which works OK on the regular lathe, is too long to co-exist with short tools in the turret. Even if I cut off the taps, it is pretty long, so I will probably have to make a special new releasing holder PLUS maybe cut the taps to make it fit. That chuck looks like it just has to go, it's way too long. No issue when set in the tailstock, bad on the turret.

    Or, I suppose I could put the other tools on extensions, but the thing starts to look like some sort of insect, with the tools sticking out all over....

    Doc's turret is much nicer, where the tools can have the body set back as far as needed to get them to be in a good working position. And I believe Doc started with a regular Logan bed turret.

    Here's Doc's setup at work
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J5yhSTv-dc
    Last edited by J Tiers; 04-20-2017 at 02:24 PM.
    1601

    Keep eye on ball.
    Hashim Khan

  5. #15
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    On some turrets there is a point part way back..but not all the way, where you can then skip stations, on a 2-4 station setup....not sure if yours will do it.
    Also explore milling the front face flat and tapping, makes extensions more solid.
    If you want to repaet a setup down the road record your stickout measurements.
    A lifesaver tool on turrets is morse taper straight od sockets.. Yours might only take Morse 2. Sometimes you have to. Cut part of the drift hole off to shorten them. Then you can also use them in a collet on the mill ..way shorter than most adaptors.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by J Tiers View Post
    The full travel on the ram is 4 3/8" (spec is 4 1/4", OK). BUT, the ram HAS TO travel at least 2 1/8" to reset the mechanism that turns the turret. Shorter than that, and it won't automatically turn the turret, AND it cannot be turned by hand.
    -Yep, and there's not much you can do about it. There has to be X amount of ram travel to physically move the turret 60 degrees, plus a certain amount for the ratchet mechanism to "reset".

    I can't count the number of times I've gotten a good setup, with all the tools properly tuned, only to find that one or more stations won't index because the ram hasn't gone far enough. There's no real fix other than forethought and planning... and a little grumbling.

    Doc's turret is much nicer, where the tools can have the body set back as far as needed to get them to be in a good working position. And I believe Doc started with a regular Logan bed turret.
    -I think you're looking at my old turret, the one in the video. That was a makeshift unit I was never quite 100% happy with, done in part because I'd tried to adapt that same turret earlier to a machine with a lower centerline.

    I eventually abandoned it in favor of a proper turret with a capstan wheel rather than a lever:



    The ram has more travel (over 5") it seems to give me better leverage and a smoother throw, and I was able to rebore the holes to exactly 1" to match my machine. I then blew several hundred bucks over several months buying off-the-shelf tooling, rather than having to make a bunch of my own.

    Yeah, I was able to make perfectly-functional knee tools and drill holders for the "flat" turret, but it wasn't going to be so easy to make roll knurlers, die heads, releasing tap holders and roller box tools.

    Then, not too long ago, I found just the turret- the iron hex portion- on eBay, and planned to refit it to the lever turret assembly in order to ditch the T-slot plate. Shortly after that, I decided it was time to switch to full CNC, since as cool as turrets are, there's still kind of a limit to what you can do with one, and you still have to operate it manually.

    However, as noted in my Logan build log, I fully expect the conversion to be a temporary stepping stone- I'll eventually buy a commercial ready-to-run CNC, and thus convert the Logan back to a manual, either engine or turret, and either keep it as a second-op machine, or possibly sell it both for the room and to help finance the CNC.

    Doc.
    Doc's Machine. (Probably not what you expect.)

  7. #17
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    Thanks.

    Per your advice above, I am leaving the stations alone. (I am very good at NOT doing something like that) I plan to make a stock stop for one of the oversize stations, and I don't know just what to do with the other one. Both are about 0.035 to 0.045 oversized for 5/8". No room for much of a sleeve, although I might get one in there if I had to, by using spring stock or shim stock.

    And here I thought the turret in the video was pretty slick! It DOES give the ability to deal with at least some issues of long tools by equalizing the stickout, but tool diameter would be an issue. Still I like the solution, and it probably really fits the chucker vs bar machine situation, as in your video, where the part is much bigger than would go through the spindle. Lots of side to side adjustment available to handle cuts on different size parts, where options are limited when the tools have to fit the round turret holes. A hex would have been nice, but I own this one.

    I'm glad I am not the only one to get "bitten" by the tool length issue. I was feeling like I had really missed the boat. I figure I can do a more compact releasing mechanism, so the length won't be much over the length of the "fits anything" V-type toolholder. Brown and Sharpe did it... I can figure out a way. Once I realized that the release mechanism needs no adjustment, I got a lot more ideas. I sure liked that chuck though... Oh well.

    I think I already know what you mean about the wheel vs the lever. I bet it has more leverage, and if pressure is needed, as with a drill and turn operation, you probably do not feel like you are going to flip the machine over as you are hauling on he lever.

    Anyhow, thanks for the update and general support.

    754:

    The turret seems to have no skip mode. If it was a hand rotated turret, I could pull it all the way back before rotating a new tool into place. Drat, but also un-drat, since it is faster and easier to do it all with one motion.

    As for the MT sleeves, with most positions being 5/8", I cannot fit an MT2 sleeve in. It would be tight in a 3/4" bore. I might get an MT1 sleeve in, if I made it myself undersize from what I see in he catalogs.

    What would really be nice is a full set of B&S stub collets, with doubles for sizes to fit the common tapping size drills, and a few holders... I have never even seen one, though, let alone a set, other than a few odd pieces on ebay.
    1601

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    Hashim Khan

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by J Tiers View Post
    I plan to make a stock stop for one of the oversize stations, and I don't know just what to do with the other one.
    -Make another centerable drill holder with a shank specifically for that size, and leave it set up with a center drill. That's a common tool for virtually any process that requires a hole drilled or bored.

    Lots of side to side adjustment available to handle cuts on different size parts, where options are limited when the tools have to fit the round turret holes.
    -That's what I was thinking, but as it turns out, at least for my product line, I virtually never made parts that were larger than 1" OD.

    I'm glad I am not the only one to get "bitten" by the tool length issue. I was feeling like I had really missed the boat.
    -Have you ever read the Warner & Swazey book? They specifically mention at least once, making sure to set the machine up so that even the longest tool cycles far enough to "reset" the mechanism. That's less of an issue with a big W&S machine, with a foot-plus of ram travel, but still an issue.

    The turret seems to have no skip mode.
    -It's not a "proper" mode. He's talking about retracting the ram, but not all the way. Stop rolling the ram back right as the turret unlocks, but before the advancement ratchet engages. You can ten rotate the turret manually in the normal rotation direction, to either skip a tool or two, or even roll all the way back around to the previous tool.

    It's a common technique when you only have a few tools in the turret- rather than ratchet the thing around two or three empty stations to get back to number one, you draw it back, as above, and roll it back around to the starting point.

    As for the MT sleeves, with most positions being 5/8", I cannot fit an MT2 sleeve in.
    -I wouldn't worry about MT sleeves. That makes for a really long setup, unless you have a drill ground down to just a couple inches long. The short V-block drill holders are much better.

    What would really be nice is a full set of B&S stub collets, with doubles for sizes to fit the common tapping size drills, and a few holders.
    -Stub collets are rare, obscure and expensive. I had plans to make 3 or 4 ER collet holders, probably just ER16, though maybe ER20. Buy some cheap straight-shank ER holders, saw or part the collet end off plus a smidge, then TIG weld 'em into a short chunk of flat plate, so they can be "centered" on a shank like the usual V-block drill holders.

    I figured I'd chuck up a nice piece of accurate drill rod, clamp the ER collet to it, and use that to face the turret end of the welded plate flat and smooth, so the collet axis would wind up very close to straight and parallel to the spindle axis.

    With a full set of collets, plus maybe the occasional extra or two in case of overlap, you could hold any drill, endmill, countersink or even a small boring bar.

    I almost pulled the trigger on four eBay collet holders (would have been right at $100 with shipping) but as I said, by that time I was already starting to lean hard towards the CNC conversion.

    Doc.
    Doc's Machine. (Probably not what you expect.)

  9. #19
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    Yeah, ER are attractive, but the stub collets seem to be half as long. As they are, I believe, based on the 5C collet, they are about as long as the grip length on the 5C. And are split like the ER, with a comment that they do cover more sizes than the normal ones.

    Anyhow, I wasn't actually being serious, even if hey could be found, they are not made anymore. I can make a lot of blank sleeves if I want to, likely cheaper, and any size I want, any time ai need to. I have some of 'em in 1/2 and 9/16 diameters now.
    1601

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    Hashim Khan

  10. #20

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    I had a friend (god rest him) who used to preface his comments about how I ought to be doing something by saying, "I don't want to tell you how to f**k your goat, but ..."

    So here I am with a goat comment. I have made quite a few ER collet adapters in several ER sizes. It's not hard, and if you've got several lined up to minimize tool setup and changeover it goes pretty fast. Excluding peripheral machining you've got one external thread (metric) and an internal taper. If you're contemplating a series of ER holders it sounds pretty easy. Probably two piece like Doc suggests so you have a plate and short cylinder assembly, welded or Loctited. Then it's up on a face plate to turn the OD and thread it on them all, followed by drill, bore and turn the internal taper.

    Nevertheless, I know whatever you do with your goat is no business of mine.
    .
    "I am often asked how radio works. Well, you see, wire telegraphy is like a very long cat. You yank his tail in New York and he meows in Los Angeles. Do you understand this? Now, radio is exactly the same, except that there is no cat." : Albert Einstein

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