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Thread: OT, electric baseboard heat?

  1. #11
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    Heat pumps suck nearly as bad as direct electric heat.

    Did you look at the location?

    heatpumps start to really stink as the outdoor temp drops below about 45F. By the time you get to NE PA winter temps, you might as well put in resistive heat.

    Now, if you install a ground source heatpump, that becomes different. Neighbors did that, and they now have heating and cooling that is low cost. The install cost is higher, but before the present administration there were grant programs to encourage people to put them in. We have hot water heat, which I do not want to change, so we are not candidates for it, but if we had that nasty forced air heat, I'd put in ground source at the first opportunity.
    1601

    Keep eye on ball.
    Hashim Khan

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by J Tiers View Post
    Heat pumps suck nearly as bad as direct electric heat.

    Did you look at the location?

    heatpumps start to really stink as the outdoor temp drops below about 45F. By the time you get to NE PA winter temps, you might as well put in resistive heat.
    This information is outdated. Heat pumps have recently become very effective well down into the 20s, and still beat electric resistance below that. Up here in Maine the heat pump business is booming, and our electric rates aren't that great. If I was building new construction in ME or PA heat pump would be my primary heating source. With something like a wood or pellet stove for extremely cold times or power loss. Still way cheaper than a conventional heating system, and you get AC.

    The OPs use of resistance heat to appease the real estate/insurance folks is a perfect application for it in a house with a pellet stove. Though in PA I'd definitely be considering a heat pump for the AC in the summer.

    I also heat my house nearly entirely with a pellet stove. If it didn't come with an oil boiler I wouldn't have one, and if it dies it's not getting replaced, I'm getting a heat pump.

  3. #13
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    It is difficult to "outdate" basic physics.

    There are some multi-stage heat pumps that can do better, but it STILL is true that the warmer the heat source (cool earth vs very cold air) the easier (less energy needed) it is to move that heat to the place it is wanted. (A client was working on those, so I have some knowledge of them)

    Even the older heat pumps still (barely) beat resistive heat in most cases, but the ground source advantage remains over even newer units simply due to the warmer source. The neighbors had a huge savings over their previous unit. If they had had the most modern unit now available, the advantage would be less but still present.

    Depending on the nature of the ground, there can also be some saving due to warming the ground in summer and cooling it in winter, so that the next season may get some advantage, at least early on. The neighbors experience seems to confirm that.
    1601

    Keep eye on ball.
    Hashim Khan

  4. #14
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    Anderson SC
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    Quote Originally Posted by J Tiers View Post
    Heat pumps suck nearly as bad as direct electric heat.

    Did you look at the location?

    heatpumps start to really stink as the outdoor temp drops below about 45F. By the time you get to NE PA winter temps, you might as well put in resistive heat.

    Now, if you install a ground source heatpump, that becomes different. Neighbors did that, and they now have heating and cooling that is low cost. The install cost is higher, but before the present administration there were grant programs to encourage people to put them in. We have hot water heat, which I do not want to change, so we are not candidates for it, but if we had that nasty forced air heat, I'd put in ground source at the first opportunity.
    Jerry, you should stick to posting things you actually understand.

    Heat pumps these days are FAR more efficient than resistance electric heat. (resistance electric heat is the proper term, NOT direct electric heat) Next, read up on "COP" , heat pumps generally run between 3-4 COP (hint: its the heat produced for the electricity consumed, resistance heat has a COP of one , hardly a case of "suck nearly as bad" )

    As for "ground source heatpump", they are more commonly referred to as geothermal systems in the industry. (see "waterfurnace", a brand name) Yes, geothermal heatpump systems are extremely efficient BUT also extremely expensive.

    As for low ambient outdoor performance, that has come a long ways also. For example, A Fujitsu 12RLS heatpump ( one ton rated, 12,000 btu) makes about 13,500 BTU at -10F outside temp, AND about 20,000 BTU at +40F outdoor temp. These values are from Dept of Energy tests on that unit. It maintains a COP of over 2 at temps below 0F outside and a COP of over 5 at 40F outdoor.

    I'm sure a rebuttal post is to follow, telling why industry accepted terms, published specs and Dept of Energy tests are not valid. I have learned to just ignore such rebuttals we have enough hot air here in SC.
    Last edited by Sparky_NY; 06-13-2018 at 10:30 AM.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCByrd24 View Post
    This information is outdated. Heat pumps have recently become very effective well down into the 20s, and still beat electric resistance below that. Up here in Maine the heat pump business is booming, and our electric rates aren't that great. If I was building new construction in ME or PA heat pump would be my primary heating source. With something like a wood or pellet stove for extremely cold times or power loss. Still way cheaper than a conventional heating system, and you get AC.

    The OPs use of resistance heat to appease the real estate/insurance folks is a perfect application for it in a house with a pellet stove. Though in PA I'd definitely be considering a heat pump for the AC in the summer.

    I also heat my house nearly entirely with a pellet stove. If it didn't come with an oil boiler I wouldn't have one, and if it dies it's not getting replaced, I'm getting a heat pump.
    Best "arctic models" like mitsubishi FH25 manage COP=2 down to -20c / -5f
    (At 20f COP is 2.5)

  6. #16
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    Anderson SC
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattiJ View Post
    Best "arctic models" like mitsubishi FH25 manage COP=2 down to -20c / -5f
    (At 20f COP is 2.5)
    I have personally installed a very similar unit, in Rochester NY at 20F outdoor temps and was AMAZED at the heat output. Since then I installed many more so the surprise is no longer.

  7. #17

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    Thanks Matt and Sparky for backing up my statement with actual numbers.

  8. #18
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    I installed a geothermal system in a Michigan home I'd lived in about a dozen years ago or so. I can attest to the fact that this is hands down the way to go if you have a couple acres of land. If you don't have the land for a horizontally piped system there are also vertically piped systems that are installed similar to wells....but much more expensive because of the equipment needed. In any event the return on investment, which for me at the time was close to $25K, is around 8 to 10 years assuming the alternative is liquid propane, which it was for me. These systems are extremely efficient, provide cooling and heating as well as hot water in the summer. The thing I think that folks need to understand is that if you had to finance an installation over the 10 year payback period, your payments would be LESS than paying for electric heat or for liquid propane. Of course if you have natural gas available, then you should probably stick with it imho. Otherwise the choice is a no brainer The house I had was a 1500 sq ft ranch with a basement and averaged over the year my electric bill (on separate lower cost meter) was about 80 bucks per month keeping the house at 70 in the winter and 75 in the summer.

  9. #19
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    My new heat pump for the kids swimming pool has a COP of 6.21 for heating. Provides heat even with -5C (23F) ambient air temperature. Heat pump good. Ignorance bad.

    Work hard play hard

  10. #20
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    Jun 2007
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    Anderson SC
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    That COP of 6.21 for the pool heater is a bit misleading. A COP value without its accompanying temperature is meaningless. COP varies with temperature. A wild guess would be its probably at 50-70F outdoor temp, guessing that because pools don't get used much below that. On the plus side, that warmer the temp, the higher the COP, so a heat pump pool heater is going to be very efficient.

    BTW, they have heat pump domestic hot water tanks out there too. I have seen Rheem ones but I'm sure others make them too.

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