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Thread: OT: The destroyer Fitzgerald's collision with a container vessel

  1. #21
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    There is nothing in the rules granting exceptions to vessels engaged in wartime activity, let alone even being a warship.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by elf View Post
    There is nothing in the rules granting exceptions to vessels engaged in wartime activity, let alone even being a warship.
    Heh, try arguing about it with the warship of a "belligerent" during wartime.... I cannot see that ending well......
    1601

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    Hashim Khan

  3. #23
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    It seems it did end poorly for the warship in this case

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by gellfex View Post
    Doesn't that by definition make it a boat rather than a ship?
    A ship has a mast, a boat doesn't.

    There is a similar problem in the air. Every now and then a Russian Bear long range reconnaissance aircraft tootles along the British coast, probably flown by an 'old hand' pilot who has done it many times before. Nice and steady just enjoying the view and wondering if he could parachute in and claim asylum and benefits.
    Up goes a young whipper snapper in a fast jet and flies alongside shouting 'BOO'. Then lots of people jump up and down saying the Russians are totally out of order and might cause a crash blah blah blah. Of course if they just left them alone there would be no problem or danger. The real danger is that one day the kid in the fighter will get too close showing off and bump into the big plane.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by elf View Post
    It seems it did end poorly for the warship in this case
    For, presumably, somewhat different reasons than in the other case.......
    1601

    Keep eye on ball.
    Hashim Khan

  6. #26

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    From a mariners point of few there are a few things obvious in this and other recent Navy accidents.

    US Navy officers are expected to serve in many capacities and need seagoing experience to advance in rank. Most have very little underway time as Commander or watch officer at sea.

    Navy ships are built to have a minimum radar signature and most times operate with AIS = vessel speed and heading broadcast information, disabled. This coupled with much higher operating speeds often suprises commercial vessels. Nothing there then she’s right on top of you .

    The final factor and one that could have saved the vessel last minute was incredable complexity in steering and engine command systems. Most ships have one helm that’s connected to auto pilot that disables with one switch. Either wing of the bridge has a joy stick used while docking locked out while underway.

    Navy vessel involved had multiple ways to steer the vessel each locked in or out with various methods. And something I have never seen in 50 years operating vessels, the engine controls could be locked running both screws on one control or select individual propellor control . Last minute nobody knew how to turn her, someone went full reverse expecting to slow the vessel, only one propellor responded turning the ship into the container ships path.

    Nothing changed either, twice in the last year I have been supprised by Navy vessels operating at high speed nearly invisible to other vessels. Once in a narrow channel by 3 special ops boats running at night no nav lights, no radar, speeds that must have been in excess of 30 knots. Pure recklessness, unwritten navigational rule commercial mariners “if it’s grey stay away”

    Shame of it is they punished a few sailors who were doing their best with terrible systems and practices and the core problems never addressed

    Boats
    Last edited by boats; 02-11-2019 at 09:52 AM.

  7. #27
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    I hope that this "incredible complexity" doesn't bite us when a ship is actually in a battle situation someday and is damaged and these automatic computer controls aren't working or are somehow working wrong and something like this happens but worse. What ever happened to KISS (keep it simple stupid). If there is or has to be "incredible complexity" it should be able to be turned off with one switch and control of the ship would fall back to "emergency" or "manual old fashion" controls. Even verbal from the bridge to the engine room via the sound powered phone. Wonder if they still have them or are they too old tech? And thanks Boats for your insight. My navy experience in the early 70s was in the engine room of a diesel electric ship from WWII and I don't know much about the rules of the road. What I know is that we always had someone with headphones on (sound powered phones incase the power was off as happened on occasion), who could communicate with the bridge incase the Engine Order Telegraph failed or some other emergency or need to communicate.
    Last edited by wdtom44; 02-11-2019 at 10:27 AM.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlfamm View Post
    A recent, highly readable account of the destroyer USS Fitzgerald's collision with the container ship MV Crystal off of the coast of Japan in June 2017. A disturbing tale of missing organizational cohesion, loss of distributed command oversight, over-reliance on malfunctioning/maladjusted/misunderstood radar systems, lack of applied basic seamanship, etc. Ship and crew were simply not ready to leave port - but were under orders to do so. The mishap cost the lives of 7 US sailors, and injured 3.



    This is a _long_ read (at least 60 minutes), but a completely absorbing one:

    https://features.propublica.org/navy...crash-crystal/


    The damaged Fitzgerald:




    And a (shorter) Wikipedia article on the collision:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Fi...stal_collision

    You make it sound like somebody f'ed up.

    Don't they still have lookouts that yell "look at that great big $$$$$$$$ ship coming right at us.
    The shortest distance between two points is a circle of infinite diameter.

    Bluewater Model Engineering Society at https://sites.google.com/site/bluewatermes/

  9. #29

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    I spent little time on large government ships, when in the CG mostly under 100 feet run by enlisted men, long time working in management for foreign ship owners with 3rd world crew. No question a experienced Senior American Boatswain or Philippine officer that spent his life at sea knows how to avoid collisions . They are rarely given problem vessels.

    Thing that really got me in the Accident report was the “Lee Helmsman” little bit of time I was on a Cutter with large crew the “Lee Helmsman” was a extra standing by. Either a new sailor observing or a experienced sailor keeping his eye on a inexperienced helmsman. Something goes wrong push the guy out of the way and take over the wheel.

    Navy collision the Lee Helmsman had his own wheel with a selector switch in another location shifting control to one of the other steering systems. Imagine driving a car with two steering wheels and some obscure switch sifting control one to the other ?

    They fired a Captain and Chef Boatswain Mate ? How about the dumb X#$@ who designed that system ? Most likely some contractor padding the expense of new vessels with stupid systems

    Boats
    Last edited by boats; 02-11-2019 at 11:40 AM.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baz View Post
    A..................... The real danger is that one day the kid in the fighter will get too close showing off and bump into the big plane.
    Like this?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan_Island_incident

    Steve

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