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Thread: A question about steel automobile wheels

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by djc View Post
    Are you sure on this? Could you please give an example.

    Seems to me the engineering challenges of making this work with acceptable tolerances for any kind of mass production are rather daunting.

    Say the wheel has four lug nuts. Any wheel made has to fit any hub made in any of four clock positions such that when the nuts are tightened, they seat simultaneously, axially (so not as to induce bending stresses into the studs), keep the wheel central on the hub, and distribute the wheel load equally between the studs.

    As I see it, any taper on the nuts is to help with rotational alignment of the wheel as a whole relative to the studs. It does not contribute to wheel alignment on the hub. Not too many good designs rely on a nut located on a thread (and one where the male threads are undoubtedly rolled, not cut) for alignment.
    I've used "lug centric wheels", some on Stock Cars, with no problem but you have to do a little wiggling of the wheel to make sure the taper nut doesn't tighten off center to the hole because of the weight of the wheel pulling it to one side. With "hub center wheels" it's very much easier to get the tapered nut centered in the hole because the amount of force needed for the nut taper to rotate the wheel into alignment is very much less. Some wheels use lugnuts like these to center the wheel.
    Last edited by Arcane; 07-07-2019 at 05:11 AM.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by djc View Post
    Are you sure on this? Could you please give an example.

    Seems to me the engineering challenges of making this work with acceptable tolerances for any kind of mass production are rather daunting.

    Say the wheel has four lug nuts. Any wheel made has to fit any hub made in any of four clock positions such that when the nuts are tightened, they seat simultaneously, axially (so not as to induce bending stresses into the studs), keep the wheel central on the hub, and distribute the wheel load equally between the studs.

    As I see it, any taper on the nuts is to help with rotational alignment of the wheel as a whole relative to the studs. It does not contribute to wheel alignment on the hub. Not too many good designs rely on a nut located on a thread (and one where the male threads are undoubtedly rolled, not cut) for alignment.
    It's true. BMW's are hub centric, older American cars were lug centric. If the lug nuts have a tapered seat, it's usually lug centric.

  3. #13
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    My Snap-On wheel balancer has a wheel lift built into it. You could just as easily use it to mount large wheels. I don't understand why you would want to use the mount holes to lift a wheel/tire. There are all types of tire OD lift assist tools. Also, not all vehicles use studs--Some use bolts.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forestgnome View Post
    It's true. BMW's are hub centric, older American cars were lug centric. If the lug nuts have a tapered seat, it's usually lug centric.
    I found that to my joy when my neighbor needed a flat taken off their little-used BMW. Been on for 12 years (never rotated!). The rim was "one" with hubs; took a lot of effort, timbers, 10lb sledge etc. 12 winters of grit, salt and whatever.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by lakeside53 View Post
    I found that to my joy when my neighbor needed a flat taken off their little-used BMW. Been on for 12 years (never rotated!). The rim was "one" with hubs; took a lot of effort, timbers, 10lb sledge etc. 12 winters of grit, salt and whatever.
    That's the reason to use "Never-Seez" on lug nuts, being sure to get it on the tapered surface.

    Abd, before some kind soul solemnly warns me that using any "lube" on the lug nuts will cause them to back off and cause the wheel to come off...... NO it will not....
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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by J Tiers View Post
    That's the reason to use "Never-Seez" on lug nuts, being sure to get it on the tapered surface.

    Abd, before some kind soul solemnly warns me that using any "lube" on the lug nuts will cause them to back off and cause the wheel to come off...... NO it will not....

    Agreed! Just about every tire repair shop will say that using any lube on the lug nuts will cause them to back off". If you ask them why connecting rod bolts and main cap bolts in an engine which are speced to use oil as a lubricant when torquing them don't come loose, they have no answer.

    The only thing about using "Never-Seez" on lug nuts is you have to reduce the torque value or you risk over stretching the stud. For those who are interested:

    From https://www.bostik-industrial.com/ne...ing-compounds/

    The use of Never-Seez Regular Grade requires about 30% less torque while providing the same clamping force on threads. Never-Seez Pure Nickel reduces torque by 15%, and Mariner’s Choice requires 41% less torque. This torque percentage is even lower if Never-Seez is applied to both the threads and bolt cap, which is the preferred method.

    Without Never-Seez, the amount of torque is between 50-80%.
    Last edited by Arcane; 07-07-2019 at 12:04 PM.

  7. #17
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    Different types and sizes of lugs:
    https://www.discounttire.com/learn/lug-nuts


    As far as I know, other than the hub centric style, the only critical concern is where the lug seat meets the wheel. I had two sets of stock rims for my old car that I planned to use on a trailer, picked five and had trailer tires mounted, then went to install them, only three of the rims went over the larger studs. Out of all 8, only 5 would fit

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by J Tiers View Post
    That's the reason to use "Never-Seez" on lug nuts, being sure to get it on the tapered surface.

    Abd, before some kind soul solemnly warns me that using any "lube" on the lug nuts will cause them to back off and cause the wheel to come off...... NO it will not....
    I agree, but the nuts were not the main problem on that hub centric wheel. The center hole and hub spigot need anti-seize even more. Pine tar is my go-to for this and all fasteners under the car. Even after ten years of driving in salt slush, you still get that lovely pine tar odor when you remove a nut or bolt, and the engaged threads are pristine.
    Last edited by cameron; 07-07-2019 at 12:49 PM.

  9. #19
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    Since this thread has wandered off topic some, it's also important to note that steel wheels have conical lug nut seats (and they're not all the same angle) while alloy wheels have spherical (ball) seats. At least the Honda's I've dealt with do. Probably has something to do with stress risers and cracking the alloy wheels. The alloy wheel lug nuts on our Toyota Matrix have a straight cylindrical snout with a close clearance that locates the wheel. It gets really frustrating when you want to mix and match.
    It's all mind over matter.
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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by lakeside53 View Post
    I found that to my joy when my neighbor needed a flat taken off their little-used BMW. Been on for 12 years (never rotated!). The rim was "one" with hubs; took a lot of effort, timbers, 10lb sledge etc. 12 winters of grit, salt and whatever.
    I'd bet good money that it was an alloy wheel that was stuck to the hub due to the effects of galvanic corrosion between the aluminum/magnesium wheel and the steel hub.


    Quote Originally Posted by J Tiers View Post
    That's the reason to use "Never-Seez" on lug nuts, being sure to get it on the tapered surface.

    Abd, before some kind soul solemnly warns me that using any "lube" on the lug nuts will cause them to back off and cause the wheel to come off...... NO it will not....

    No amount of anti-seize on the studs will prevent this. The anti-seize should instead be applied to the wheel/hub interface.

    The use of anti-seize use on wheel mounting hardware goes against all recommended practices as laid out by the automotive manufacturers and wheel and tire industries. They do however recommend the use of engine oil or grease as a lube on wheel mounting hardware.
    And yes wheels do come off due to the use of anti-seize, not because they become loose from it's use but because of wheel mounting hardware failure due to the hardware being stretched beyond it's yield point. Once the fastener has lost it's elasticity it is no long effective in it's role as a fastener, that's how the nut either becomes loose or the stud itself breaks.

    There where a very large number of high profile commercial wheel-off incidents a number of years ago that resulted in fatalities. In almost every case it was determined that the use of anti-seize was the main contributor of the hardware failure.

    The use of anti-seize in this application was very common in the old days but we learn from our mistakes and move forward. Old habits die slowly but if you check with those that do this professionally you will find it is no longer an accepted practice.
    I recently attended a transportation industry safety seminar where this point was driven home by not only industry stakeholders but also by a spokesman for the RCMP Integrated Collision Analysis and Reconstruction Service.
    They specifically stated that it's use is easy to spot and it will come up in court.

    Unless you take precautionary measures in torquing your own personal vehicle's wheels and can be certain that no one else will ever touch them, I highly recommend that you do not continue to apply anti-seize on wheel mounting hardware.
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