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Thread: A question about steel automobile wheels

  1. #21
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    That's interesting. I would not think never-seize would reduce tightening friction, that much more, or even as much as oil or grease, to the extent that any REASONABLE amount of torque would stretch the lug bolts past the yield point.

    What about the pine tar treatment Cameron described? Intuitively, doesn't seem like that would cause a problem, i.e. reducing tightening friction/over torquing.

    But since Willy is the one who raised this point, and I enjoy watching "Highway Thru Hell" (Heavy rescue truck adventures in British Columbia, I'm curious if, say the trucking industry, makes allowances for extremely cold conditions in fastener torque.

  2. #22
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    Of COURSE I WILL CONTINUE....

    Anyone who tightens a lubed fastener, and ENGINE OIL IS NO DIFFERENT, if they torque to the same point as if dry is a blame fool.

    Now, if you use the particulate never0seez, maybe it happens.... I use the graphite type. it's rather different.

    Possibly you have never sheared a lug with a cheater bar on the totally stuck tight nut in the boonies late at night. I do not recommend it.

    When the nuts are removed, with the graphite, they are tight, but come off with a regular wrench. if not, then they resist a several foot cheater and 180+ person jumping on it.

    I stick with never seez, and I recommend it.
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  3. #23
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    On my truck ('04 Sierra 3500), which has hub-centric wheels, I haven't had problems with removing the lug nuts, but have had problems breaking the rims loose from the hug, until I started periodically cleaning rust/dirt off the centering lip and smearing anti-seize on the surface of the hub and centering lip. I don't put anti-seize on the studs, as I've had some lugs come loose.

  4. #24
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    I've had to use a sledge hammer on a few hub centric steel wheels, Willy. Maybe we use a better quality salt on our roads than you do out there

    What you posted on anti-seize is much appreciated. I'll continue to use pine tar, though, it's not "real" anti-seize , and I don't think it's more likely to cause problems than the oil or grease you say the manufacturers recommend, and it sure does a better job of keeping away rust.

    And, until I get my wrench arm recalibrated, I'll continue to use a torque wrench every time on wheel nuts. It always gets them tighter than I would have made them without its use.

    Talking strictly automobiles, of course, I'll leave the big stuff to people who know better.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by J Tiers View Post
    Of COURSE I WILL CONTINUE....

    Anyone who tightens a lubed fastener, and ENGINE OIL IS NO DIFFERENT, if they torque to the same point as if dry is a blame fool.

    Now, if you use the particulate never0seez, maybe it happens.... I use the graphite type. it's rather different.

    Possibly you have never sheared a lug with a cheater bar on the totally stuck tight nut in the boonies late at night. I do not recommend it.

    When the nuts are removed, with the graphite, they are tight, but come off with a regular wrench. if not, then they resist a several foot cheater and 180+ person jumping on it.

    I stick with never seez, and I recommend it.


    Great, maybe you should contact Peramtex and tell them they should change their recommendation.

    https://www.permatex.com/faqwd/perma...ghtening-nuts/


    Does Permatex suggest applying anti-seize to lubricate lug nuts when installing or tightening the nuts?

    Posted on: February 18th, 2016
    Permatex does not recommend the use of any anti-seize product on wheel studs. Many people have used anti-seize for this applications, however, there is the potential for over-torqueing and therefore, higher clamp loads and potentially dangerous bolt stretch. Because of the lubricity of anti-seize, there is a tendency to over-tighten because of the ease with which the nut will bear down on the lug. For this reason, even if you try to torque the nuts to factory specs, the clamp load may become too high depending on the type of bolt, size and manufacturer.



    I should clarify the use of oil on wheel fasteners. The drop or two of oil should only apply to hub piloted nuts that use a captive flanged nut at the flange/nut jucnture. Everything else should be clean and dry, this is what the wheel mounting hardware torque figures are based on.
    Home, down in the valley behind the Red Angus
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  6. #26
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    Assembled dry, they become welded together, no other way to state it. They get to the point that it should be a recommendation to change out the studs and nuts with each wheel change.

    With the stuff I use, they are tight, it takes force to break them loose, but nothing ridiculous, and in 40 years, I have never had any problem with a lug nut so treated.

    As for the recommendation, Permatex is NEVER going to "recommend" doing ANYTHING different on wheels. The legal department would have a heart attack.....They would be fools to stick their necks under that knife, because then Permatex will be on the hook for all the damages from anything that can be remotely related to that usage, even theoretically. No matter what they say, if it is different from the automaker's instructions, they will be on the hook for ANY problem that EVER occurs. And they have no control whatever over what "use of" never-seez means when some "consumer" out there "uses" it.

    It really has nothing much to do with real actual problems, whether or not there are any such, it is about taking on a responsibility. They are actually not going to make ANY recommendation for any specific "high confidence" usage, because of the same considerations.

    I bet their own employees use it on lug nuts.
    Last edited by J Tiers; 07-07-2019 at 11:02 PM.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by J Tiers View Post
    Assembled dry, they become welded together, no other way to state it.........
    I've seen one vehicle where the lug nut was galling so bad it was debatable if it would come off. With a lot of patience and lubing with a light oil it did but the nut and stud were toast. The rest of the studs and nuts on the car were toast also. Relatively new vehicle too.



    A friend of mine owns his own garage and has been a GREAT mechanic for several decades. He's been lubing wheel studs with light oil for decades also and has never had one issue with them.

    It's an old wives tale that using oil to lube wheel studs will cause them to loosen. It absolutely will not. What will cause them to loosen is not tightening them properly in the first place.

  8. #28
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    I'm not saying that the use of anti-seize on wheel mounting hardware will somehow make wheels fall off. On the contrary I can appreciate why it has been used, however it has also been much abused due to the lack of understanding as to what is happening to the fastener when proper measures aren't taken.

    Speaking of which , I did a bit of a search to find what sort of torque reduction is required when it is used on a fastener in order to achieve the same clamp load. I went with strictly industry information and avoided anecdotal reports and forum advice. Even when looking for what should be reliable info I still got data stating that torque requirements needed to be reduced anywhere from 20%-55%! Holy cow, quite a spread, no reliable consensus there. I'm sure differing formulations would have a dramatic difference in the results, I guess??? Confusion is what we don't need when it comes to wheel retention.

    This is why the recommendation for clean and dry wheel studs and nuts prior to torquing fasteners because it is such a safety critical application. It creates a level playing field, or a standard if you will.
    As I previously stated, nothing wrong with it's use provided that you can ensure that only you will ever torque those wheel nuts. If your wife should have a flat away from home and Jethro on the service truck zaps on the spare with his impact, how will you know how much past the yield point those fasteners have been taken?

    This is why we have standards and accepted practices.

    Two fasteners, identical torque applied to both,, one dry the other a liberal application of anti-seize.


    Home, down in the valley behind the Red Angus
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  9. #29
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    for you guys having problems removing stuck wheels, loosen lug nuts or lug bolts one or two turns with a breaker bar, then rock car side to side. pops them loose every time.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by gambler View Post
    for you guys having problems removing stuck wheels, loosen lug nuts or lug bolts one or two turns with a breaker bar, then rock car side to side. pops them loose every time.
    Eh? What?

    It's the nuts that are frozen solid..... the wheel comes off no issue. Stuck as in the nut twists off the stud, maybe......

    Discussing "torque" with respect to lug nuts is also pretty funny. Ha Ha.

    Torque has no meaning with lug nuts.

    At the tire shops, they put the nuts back on with an impact wrench, and let it run. They can get stretch torque dry, it's practically stir welding the nut to the studs. Don't talk to me about torquing lug nuts....
    1601

    Keep eye on ball.
    Hashim Khan

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