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Thread: A question about steel automobile wheels

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcane View Post
    Agreed! Just about every tire repair shop will say that using any lube on the lug nuts will cause them to back off". If you ask them why connecting rod bolts and main cap bolts in an engine which are speced to use oil as a lubricant when torquing them don't come loose, they have no answer.
    You're expecting a tire knocker to know what a connecting rod bolt and nut are AND the specifics of tightening the same?

  2. #42
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    J Tiers we get......... it your Model A don't need never seize on the hub..

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by J Tiers View Post
    Apples and agates...

    Steel wheels, iron hubs, steel studs, steel nuts. Not hub-centric, instead centered by the nuts, which gall and freeze solid on the wheel recesses and/or the threads.

    A dab of never-seez on the HUB will have just about as much effect on removing the wheel as pouring the engine oil on the back bumper has on lubing the crankshaft.
    Jerry-
    The wheel has to be mounted to a hub (or brake rotor/drum) - that will be the largest contact area and it will be where the corrosion will happen. I can't believe that a lug nut has enough surface area for corrosion to lock it to the wheel. Remember, I live dead center in the Rust/Salt belt and have removed thousands of wheels and I can't think of a single time a lug nut rusted to the wheel. I have seen hundreds of wheels stuck to the mounting surface.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarlByrns View Post
    Jerry-
    The wheel has to be mounted to a hub (or brake rotor/drum) - that will be the largest contact area and it will be where the corrosion will happen. I can't believe that a lug nut has enough surface area for corrosion to lock it to the wheel. Remember, I live dead center in the Rust/Salt belt and have removed thousands of wheels and I can't think of a single time a lug nut rusted to the wheel. I have seen hundreds of wheels stuck to the mounting surface.
    CORRODED? I have said it GALLED, or in other ways became stuck. Stuck enough that a long cheater bar still required a good effort to remove the lug nut. I have jumped on the end of a long wrench, with no effect. I weigh a bit over 180 lb. When removed, the contact surfaces are clean, but look galled.

    Got it now?

    I don't care if you say I am a liar...... I know what I have had to remove, and YOU do not. The use of never-seez, the graphite type, fixes that so that the tools available out on the road can, with effort, remove the wheel.

    hey, I'm DONE with being told that "it did not happen".... try another thread.
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  5. #45
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    Problem solved, I went to a large pick and pull JUNK YARD. I checked many aluminum and steel wheels , the smallest thru hole that I found for 1/2 inch wheel studs was .600. Some were as large as .670.As for as the neverseize deal ,I have been using it since the beginning of time ,Im 78.Thanks to all that answered .Edwin Dirnbeck

  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Willy View Post
    I'd bet good money that it was an alloy wheel that was stuck to the hub due to the effects of galvanic corrosion between the aluminum/magnesium wheel and the steel hub.





    No amount of anti-seize on the studs will prevent this. The anti-seize should instead be applied to the wheel/hub interface.

    The use of anti-seize use on wheel mounting hardware goes against all recommended practices as laid out by the automotive manufacturers and wheel and tire industries. They do however recommend the use of engine oil or grease as a lube on wheel mounting hardware.
    And yes wheels do come off due to the use of anti-seize, not because they become loose from it's use but because of wheel mounting hardware failure due to the hardware being stretched beyond it's yield point. Once the fastener has lost it's elasticity it is no long effective in it's role as a fastener, that's how the nut either becomes loose or the stud itself breaks.

    There where a very large number of high profile commercial wheel-off incidents a number of years ago that resulted in fatalities. In almost every case it was determined that the use of anti-seize was the main contributor of the hardware failure.

    The use of anti-seize in this application was very common in the old days but we learn from our mistakes and move forward. Old habits die slowly but if you check with those that do this professionally you will find it is no longer an accepted practice.
    I recently attended a transportation industry safety seminar where this point was driven home by not only industry stakeholders but also by a spokesman for the RCMP Integrated Collision Analysis and Reconstruction Service.
    They specifically stated that it's use is easy to spot and it will come up in court.

    Unless you take precautionary measures in torquing your own personal vehicle's wheels and can be certain that no one else will ever touch them, I highly recommend that you do not continue to apply anti-seize on wheel mounting hardware.
    What a crock of crap. You take a car to a jiffy lube (or often the dealer) and they hammer the lugs on with an impact to 400 ft-lbs at least. And you're telling me that my anti-seized lugs torqued to 80 ft-lbs are more likely to stretch and break? Dream on.

    If this anti-sieze is so much better of a lube allowing for so much less friction and thus more tightening, why don't we lube everything with it? It out to have replaced grease long ago if that's the case.

  7. #47
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    Ahhh, summer time.....you can tell by old men arguing about mindless crap

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Metal Butcher View Post
    What a crock of crap. You take a car to a jiffy lube (or often the dealer) and they hammer the lugs on with an impact to 400 ft-lbs at least. And you're telling me that my anti-seized lugs torqued to 80 ft-lbs are more likely to stretch and break? Dream on.

    If this anti-sieze is so much better of a lube allowing for so much less friction and thus more tightening, why don't we lube everything with it? It out to have replaced grease long ago if that's the case.
    Google 'torque stick'- that's how most garages torque wheel nuts.

    Only an idiot hammers a wheel on- there's too much chance for wheel, stud, or hub damage- all of which the tech will have to fix as a 'comeback' with zero pay.
    Since Willy has had a career in the petroleum field, I'd trust his advice.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigMike782 View Post
    Ahhh, summer time.....you can tell by old men arguing about mindless crap
    Except this isn't mindless. Just because you do something the wrong way and get away with it doesn't mean your way is acceptable.

    I've seen a lot of crackpot vehicle repairs where the owner just shrugs and says he'll risk it, but the thing is it's everyone around him that's at-risk.
    A couple of years ago a guy near here decided that he didn't have to grease the wheel bearings for his boat trailer. Never had an issue with the bearings. Got away with it for years. A bearing failed at highway speed, the axle snapped and the tire and wheel assembly smashed through the windshield of another car, killing the driver. Trailer owner went to jail.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Metal Butcher View Post
    What a crock of crap. You take a car to a jiffy lube (or often the dealer) and they hammer the lugs on with an impact to 400 ft-lbs at least. And you're telling me that my anti-seized lugs torqued to 80 ft-lbs are more likely to stretch and break? Dream on.

    If this anti-sieze is so much better of a lube allowing for so much less friction and thus more tightening, why don't we lube everything with it? It out to have replaced grease long ago if that's the case.
    Having been deeply involved it the commercial transportation industry for over 40 years, with an impeccable safety record i might add, I can see that your lack of experience on the subject overshoots your ability to type a civil response. If you can't wrap you head around the fact that various lubricants will display vastly different coefficients of friction then I may as well be typing this response to the wind.

    Being mostly involved in the movement of dangerous goods and and heavy equipment, safety has been more than just an idle preoccupation for me. I take the act of moving a 140,000lbs of petroleum or chemicals safely very seriously. I take great pride on my ability to have done this in all weather and road conditions without incident.

    I use whatever knowledge that I can glean from my peers and industry stakeholders to my advantage. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not the sharpest stick in the woodpile but I am smart enough to learn from those of others that have walked the same path safely before me and not repeat the mistakes of others that haven't. Legal and moral accountability for my actions is a key factor to being as safe as possible, not dying is also a very good incentive to stack the deck in my favor however I can.

    As CarlByrns mentioned previously, wheel-off are a very serious concern. Although in his example it was due to bad maintenance practices, the number of wheel-off incidents involving commercial vehicles hit a peak about 20 years ago largely attributable to the use of anti seiz.
    Old habits die slowly, I too was reluctant to discontinue it's use but the overwhelming evidence against the practice suggested I learn from the mistakes of others.

    Looking back I remember spotting the odd broken wheel stud during my pre-trip inspections but due the very random occurrence I just attributed it to happenstance. I also remember long ago walking the guardrail on a stretch of highway with a very sharp corner and picking up several broken wheel studs with the nut still attached. Other than thinking at the time that they probably came from the outside corner steering axle wheel due to the extreme loading, I didn't give it much thought. And yes they all had anti seize on them, didn't give that much thought either as everybody was using it back then, including me. I have however not replaced one stud on my own trucks in the last 20-25 years since discontinuing the use of anti seize on wheel mounting hardware. Just luck? I don't think so.

    A little article below to enlighten you if you care to read it, much more evidence out there if you want to do a little unbiased research.

    Debunking a myth

    The age-old practice of using anti-seize compounds as wheel system lubricants has never been approved or endorsed by a wheel, hub or fastener manufacturer. It hails back to the day of stud-piloted or Budd wheel systems when the inner and outer cap nuts were constantly “freezing” together during the removal process. Someone figured out that by coating the threads with high temperature anti-seize compounds the fasteners would come apart. The inherent rust inhibiting properties appeared to be an added bonus.

    But nobody asked the question: “Why do inner and outer cap nuts freeze together
    in the first place?” The answers are typically things like worn or damaged threads, excessive corrosion or uneven torque between the fasteners. The use of anti-seize compounds on stud-piloted wheels keeps bad fasteners in service longer. When they freeze together, it's usually a sign that the threads are either worn or about to wear out. Anti-seize makes sure they come apart so they're put back on the vehicle. Brilliant.
    If that isn't enough, stud-piloted wheel systems require a dry torque, so the use of a lubricant like anti-seize will result in more pounds of clamping force per foot-pound of torque. Among the results are accelerated rates of stud fatigue and ball seat wear. So anti-seize decreases the service life of both the stud and the wheel.

    Since the people who use anti-seize are creatures of habit, many of them adapted it to the newer hub-piloted wheels for the same reasons. While they could be considered correct from the lubrication standpoint, the torque setting for hub-piloted wheels is oiled.
    Once again, none of the wheel, hub, or fastener manufacturers even mentions anti-seize, and all of them agree the only acceptable lubricant is 30-weight oil, with 2-3 drops applied to the threads on the end of the studs and 2-3 drops between the flange and the nut body.
    Substituting the 2-3 drops of 30-weight oil with a couple globs of anti-seize is going to reduce the amount of clamping force per foot-pound of torque. When any variation of the word “reduction” is used in association with the key component of wheel retention, everyone owning or operating a truck should pay special attention. Anti-seize on hub-piloted fasteners leads to wheel-offs and the evidence remains on the wheel end in question following the accident. It's a slam-dunk for the plaintiff's attorney.
    Take a walk through your maintenance shop and look for cans of anti-seize. They represent an unnecessary expense no matter what the tire guy says. Then take a walk around your yard and look for evidence of metallic (usually silver or copper) residue around the studs and nuts. If you can see it, so can the lawyer. Whoever is responsible for installing your wheels must understand the anti-seize myth is costing them money and exposing everyone to unnecessary risk.
    Home, down in the valley behind the Red Angus
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