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Thread: 36 inch Ciincinnati SHAPER 1968,what werer they thinking?

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob308 View Post
    any body ever mount a tool post grinder in their shaper and use it like a surface grinder ? I have and it works real well.
    But not for long after the grit gets into the ways.
    The shortest distance between two points is a circle of infinite diameter.

    Bluewater Model Engineering Society at https://sites.google.com/site/bluewatermes/

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tundra Twin Track View Post
    I have a freind that is a High Power Rifle Fanactic,his custom gun builder charges $13000-$20000 cdn. per individual rifle.He is booked for years with orders waiting.
    I know nothing about the custom gun business, and certainly nothing about that builder, but that story reminds me of one I learned of when taking an accounting class years ago.

    A well known U.S. importer of liquor and spirits (might have been Seagrams) was importing and bottling vodka (as I recall), and sales was dismal. So they gave it a new, upscale, yuppie type name and new packaging, and upped the price about 3 or 4 fold, and then sales sky rocketed. Instructor told it as a true story.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tundra Twin Track View Post
    I have a freind that is a High Power Rifle Fanactic,his custom gun builder charges $13000-$20000 cdn. per individual rifle.He is booked for years with orders waiting.
    And good on him. But he's an exception to the rule. Same with outfits like Holland and Holland that are still in business making high end bespoke firearms. There's always the top 5% of the buyers that can afford such things. And given all the folks in the world there's enough to keep a handful of builders going that make such pieces of functional art.

  4. #44
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    yeah. there's $15,000 hand planes and $40,000 fly reels....the trick is creating the cache. Expressed another way, if you give people what they need, you are guaranteed to be in a crowded, low margin, space. You have to discover what they want that currently isn't be addressed then there almost isn't a limit on margin. That "want" is usually something psychological, no one needs a a$100,000 handbag or $20,000 shotgun.
    .

  5. #45
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    [QUOTE=lynnl;1255977]I know nothing about the custom gun business, and certainly nothing about that builder, but that story reminds me of one I learned of when taking an accounting class years ago.

    I'm not knowledgeable on these also,my freind said one time at the elderly fellows gun shop a potential new customer came in.He was quizzing him on pricing and the owner told him if the price is a problem your in the wrong shop.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by wyop View Post
    It depends on the work they're getting. Not all machine shops are created equal.

    I'll give an example: Here in Wyoming, many of our commercial machines shops have lathes with at least a 18" swing. My shop is one of the few that will take smaller work on smaller stock for widgets and such. I take in work on small little "doo-dad" sort of stuff. I don't take work that's larger than, oh, 6" in diameter.

    The big shops have all the work they can handle, working on coal/oil/gas/etc mining equipment repair work, prototypes, specialty tooling, etc. Some of the shops in Gillette have multiple 100 ton gantry cranes running the length of the shop, and sometimes they bring two of those 100 ton cranes together to haul a workpiece through the shop.

    When small-shop machinists tour some of these shops, they have questions like yours: "Why would any modern shop have a 50-year-old vertical table lathe with manual controls? Why would any modern shop have a huge manual lathe any more? Why (insert machine here)?" They come around the corner and come face to face with a 6-axis DMG mill/VTL setup with a 50HP spindle and they say "OK, I understand why you have this very fancy CNC machine..." - never mind a row of Okuma CNC lathes, and a row of Mori CNC mills... each with small cranes over their workspace to load workpieces and fixtures.

    The answer is actually the same for both the ancient VTL's and huge lathes and the new 6-axis machine: Because they have a job from a customer (even just one customer) that they do regularly that pays for it. Some machines get used all the time - like that 6-axis DMG - the manager of the shop that has that machine told me that keeping that machine going around the clock requires two crews of three men, and they bid out jobs on that machine expecting a profit of $10K/hour.

    But the jobs bid out on the old manual machines are making bucks too - the VTL I saw in one shop is there to support very particular jobs on wheel hubs on mining haul trucks, and when that machine is running, they're expecting the one man running it and the machine to be making them about $3K/hour. I know you're going to say "How can they expect to charge that much??!!"

    The reason why they can charge that much is because few modern machine shops have that machine any more - and they cannot take the work.

    Same deal with shapers. And when you need to do things like cut splines around an internal circumference, or you need to cut keyways into a blind hole, or you need some other inside pocket with corners cut, well... rotary tools won't get that done - no matter the type of CNC machine.
    Great post!
    Just in the process of starting to make a 2.333" OD 40T gear, with an 1/8" keyway in a 9/16" bore.
    On the shaper....

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by lynnl View Post
    I know nothing about the custom gun business, and certainly nothing about that builder, but that story reminds me of one I learned of when taking an accounting class years ago.

    A well known U.S. importer of liquor and spirits (might have been Seagrams) was importing and bottling vodka (as I recall), and sales was dismal. So they gave it a new, upscale, yuppie type name and new packaging, and upped the price about 3 or 4 fold, and then sales sky rocketed. Instructor told it as a true story.
    I know a horse trainer that does this with horses. He puts what he thinks is the right price on a horse. If it doesn't sell at that price he keeps raising the price until someones ego thinks the price is high enough and he then has bragging rights to the other egomaniacs that will be impressed with his purchase.
    How to become a millionaire: Start out with 10 million and take up machining as a hobby!

  8. #48
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    It is possible to make money on old machines if you have the market cornered. A few years ago I was in a very old fashioned machine shop, and they had an 10 foot swing sliding gap faceplate lathe in use. The turner, who must have been about 70 himself said he had served his apprenticeship there and the lathe was regarded as old even them. He showed me the clamps hanging on the wall which they had used when there was still a demand for re-turning steam roller wheels after they had new steel tyres fitted.
    The job that was on it was a drive ring for a big rotary kiln, and having turned it, he was then going to drill the holes for the drive pegs using an air drill clamped in the tool post, and index (can't remember how) the ring around. He said it was still a good money earner because the lathe itself didn't owe them any money, and there were very few lathes left, even then, that could handle a job of that size in the UK.
    'It may not always be the best policy to do what is best technically, but those responsible for policy can never form a right judgement without knowledge of what is right technically' - 'Dutch' Kindelberger

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by thaiguzzi View Post
    Great post!
    Just in the process of starting to make a 2.333" OD 40T gear, with an 1/8" keyway in a 9/16" bore.
    On the shaper....
    I'd like to see your setup for the OD and ID bore on the shaper... I imagine it's possible but for sure the long way around. Have to at least drill a pilot hole.

    Kidding. I think you mean keyway and teeth cut on the shaper.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard P Wilson View Post
    It is possible to make money on old machines if you have the market cornered. A few years ago I was in a very old fashioned machine shop, and they had an 10 foot swing sliding gap faceplate lathe in use. The turner, who must have been about 70 himself said he had served his apprenticeship there and the lathe was regarded as old even them. He showed me the clamps hanging on the wall which they had used when there was still a demand for re-turning steam roller wheels after they had new steel tyres fitted.
    The job that was on it was a drive ring for a big rotary kiln, and having turned it, he was then going to drill the holes for the drive pegs using an air drill clamped in the tool post, and index (can't remember how) the ring around. He said it was still a good money earner because the lathe itself didn't owe them any money, and there were very few lathes left, even then, that could handle a job of that size in the UK.
    A few years ago I was looking to retire and move to the Charleston, SC area. In looking for a (semi)retirement job I found an ad for this place: http://www.mi-tech.net/

    The ad was for manual machinists and was unique in modern times as it contained the phrase "your CNC skills are of no use here". They service a niche market that few others are interested in, and do well at it.

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