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  • wierdscience
    replied
    Did I say keys always have to be used?No,they do not,but if you have one,two or ten vises that get used on the same machine over and over it is stupid to keep indicating in the same vise everytime.

    So,just go out and make things complete.Take all your lathe chucks off and face the registers off.That way you can swap chucks between lathes,all you have to do from then on is indicate them in,right?

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  • ARFF79
    replied
    Wierd, Keys are great if you are only using the vise in one direction and on the same machine. Granted in a home shop environment multiple vises being used on several different machines is not likely, but there are always exceptions. I currently own 5 mills, all with varying T slot widths. Going from a single vise to a multiple vise set up on any one mill would require changing keys. Add to this different vise manufactuers and you end up with a nightmare of possibilities in mixed up keys. If you learn how to do it without relying on keys, then, it will not matter if you have them or not. The issue of commonality and standarization make set ups go faster, but unless you are a fairly good sized business, you will find a mixed bag of work holding devices. I have yet to work in a place that got rid of anything that was not broken beyond repair or use. One small shop I was in for 2 months used an old wood working vise because the owners father used to use it in the 30's, so it held that it could still be used in the 70's right along side thte 1885 punch press that scared the begebers out of me every time I ran it. They threw out nothing and the back room looked it.

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  • Derek13
    replied
    There's a couple diff ways i learned through progression... basically throw the vice on, aline it roughly with a square... clamp something in the vice like 123 blocks.. tighting the RIGHt side of the vice (not totally but almost) and just barely snug the left side... start 0 at the right side of the vice move to left... now you can either try to hit half the difference, OR waht i do now is move the table slowly and just tap the vice int he opposite direction of indicator travel untill you see the incidator not moving. Then run the indicator back to the left and amke sure it reads 0/0... then fine tune accordingly... this can be done by just simply tightening one vice clamp a little more.

    once you learn how to tap the vice to ALMMOST alined while moving the table, indicating is a breeze. Helps with indicating blocks on angles aswell!

    [This message has been edited by Derek13 (edited 03-04-2005).]

    [This message has been edited by Derek13 (edited 03-04-2005).]

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  • wierdscience
    replied
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by bob308:
    the problem with keys is you can not set the vise at an angle. also if you have a job too big for a vise do you put keys in it first? indicating a vise is the first thing to learn. then you have to learn to tram in a round part. then how to find center with an indicator.</font>
    Angle setting?That's why they make swivel bases.
    No,but for these jobs the vise is removed anyway.
    Indicating a workpiece should be learned,so should properly fitting table keys to a vise,but indicating the vise everytime it is removed and installed is a waste of time,wasting time is not a marketable skill(unless you work for the government)

    Finally,use reverse logic,if you wanted to indicate a part that's clamped to the table with no registers every time you use the mill.....then why have a vise at all?

    Not riding you,but after indicating everything under the sun for the last 15 odd years,I use table keys more than indicators.

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  • bob308
    replied
    the problem with keys is you can not set the vise at an angle. also if you have a job too big for a vise do you put keys in it first? indicating a vise is the first thing to learn. then you have to learn to tram in a round part. then how to find center with an indicator.

    Leave a comment:


  • wierdscience
    replied
    Why does everybody shy from table keys?

    Once you fit them it's done,over,fin,fineto.

    No,squares,no slop,no indicators,just a wrench and two bolts,that's it.

    Neat thing is,the vise CANNOT slip out of square,ever!

    B-ports are bad enough with going out of tram,why add to the problem with a vise that runs off?

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  • krazyglue
    replied
    Is the fixed jaw flat?

    If the jaw is bowed you can run an indicator across it all day it wont be true.

    Yes this has happened to me lol

    Dont worry once you get your own system it will take you less than 5 minutes to square up the vise. Once you get good at it you dont flinch at breaking your machine down.

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  • laddy
    replied
    Hey,
    I am a nebie so take that into consideration. I bought the mini laser center/edgefinder and WoW!!! I think it will make my life a considerable amount easier. I am not well versed in the use of the indicator and usually give up shortly after trying. For me I think it will be a great help. Fred

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  • Dr. Rob
    replied
    Another one: Just take a skimming cut across the face of the fixed jaw. Done. Zero runout. And gives you a zero for tool settings.

    No kidding. Started making my own vise jaws a while back. What a great thing. They're usually just a piece of flat bar with screw holes. If you make your own you can mill fixtures and stops for repeating jobs, or contours for odd-shaped pieces. Easy. And in that case, you might as well just take a cut across the face to guarantee square & truth.

    Another one:

    Bolt a pair of small, unobtrusive blocks or cylinders to the table, one at each far corner. Take a small guaranteed-to-be-square cut off those. Good, now leave them there forever. If you want to use the vise, put a long straight bar of anything in the vise jaws. Push it up against your blocks and clamp to table. Done. Might be off by x nths of a thou, but across the length of the table it becomes a very small error indeed.

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  • vmil3
    replied
    And once setup properly it's, push towards column, and tighten the nuts. Time: 20 seconds!

    ------------------
    Doug

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  • bob308
    replied
    it is called practice,practice practice. the shop i work in and my own we have no keys. and we get it done in less then 5 min. the same if we are setting up the jig bore.

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  • ARFF79
    replied
    Kurt type vises have an advantage over rounded Bridgeport style vises,in that, you can rough square them parallel to the column in seconds. All you need is a piece of ground O-1 stock or any other kind of known straightedge/parallel that is at least 8"s longandabout 3.5" -4"s wide. Place your vise on the table, snug up you bolts, then run the tables 'Y'axis in to the column while holding the piece of flat stock between the vises' back jaw and the columns' ground ways. Snug up the bolts some more then run your indicator along the jaw. Unless things are really out of square on your vise, you should be within .002 or better. Indicate to zero by tapping it in and carefully tighten your bolts so as not to tourque the vise out of line. You can use the same method to set the vise up at a right angle to the column using a large machinists square in place of the parallel stock. Quick and easy, no fuss no muss and no keys to worry about.

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  • wierdscience
    replied
    Okay,here it goes one more time.

    Table keys,first measure the width of the table slots to within .0005"

    Next,machine up some new keys to fit the vise slots tight(tap in with a hammer tight)and 1/16" or so wider than the table slot on the opposite side.

    Bolt a section of square bar or square tube approximately 1-1/2" square and 8" long.

    Mill both sides of the block true for the full length.

    Turn the vise upside down and clamp the vise to the block.

    Mill the table keys to the table slot size+.001" and taper file them from bottom to top so the bottom of the key is -.001" and the top +.001" after they are tapped in and bolted to the vise.

    Now when you set the vise and tighten it down it will be perfect everytime.

    If it is a swivel base vise,set the degree scale to zero before fitting the keys and drill and ream the base and vise for a taper pin.Doing this will allow you to swivel the vise and return it to zero everytime.

    [This message has been edited by wierdscience (edited 03-03-2005).]

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  • mochinist
    replied
    I think everyone else pretty much covered squaring your vise whether you use the step keys or not. Personally I don't like the step keys, I indicate my vises within .0002 to .0003 or better sometimes, and this takes less than a few minutes. When you get good at it you will look back and laugh at how much trouble it gave you. One other thing I would add to all this is to stone both your table and vise bottom each time. I keep a good stone in a coffee can filled with half kerosene and half motor oil, just enough to cover the stone. You don't need to get overly aggresive with the stone, just rub it on the table and vise bottom. It will only cut the dings that may happened when moving the vise or working on the table. You will be suprised what you find if you haven't done it before. After stoning I clean the table and vise with acetone and a clean rag. I take my vise on and off enough at work that I don't worry about it rusting underneith, but if you plan on leaving the vise on for long time rub a little oil on the bottom before you put it down to prevent rusting. Good luck now go make some chips.

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  • Rustybolt
    replied
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by David/toledo:
    You are dial indicatoring agains the fix jaw?
    David
    </font>

    Yes. The fixed jaw is your refrence.

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