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  • LEVEE WALL


    Question to all,is it not mandatory to place re bar in load bearing levee walls,note look at all photos of collapsed wall it is a clean break no rebar ,rebar does not keep concrete from cracking it helps to keep it from separating note clean break ?? is all the levee this way, may be i looked at photos wrong.
    mm curvin

  • #2
    The concrete sections, as I understand it, are the upper "flood control" barriers.

    The earthen walls upon which they sit are the actual levee- the concrete barriers simply add a few more feet of storm-surge and high-water protection, when needed.

    I assumed they were cast in prefab sections, and installed later, like concrete traffic barriers.

    Doc.
    Doc's Machine. (Probably not what you expect.)

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    • #3
      Still are levee walls supposed to have re bar installed for re enforcement or not.
      mm curvin

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      • #4
        Well, the so called experts, the Corps of Engineers, built/designed the thing. That should tell the tale. Why the Government regards them as the last word in construction is beyond me. I have done work for them, and believe me, they aint what they are supposed to be. There is a saying, the right way, the wrong way, and the Corps way. After all, they tried to stop and divert Niagra Falls! And they failed at that too!

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        • #5
          <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by rws:
          Well, the so called experts, the Corps of Engineers, built/designed the thing. That should tell the tale. Why the Government regards them as the last word in construction is beyond me. I have done work for them, and believe me, they aint what they are supposed to be. There is a saying, the right way, the wrong way, and the Corps way. After all, they tried to stop and divert Niagra Falls! And they failed at that too!</font>
          actually, they can stop Niagara falls at any time, and use the flow for power plants. they don't because it is a tourist trap, and for the fish. the flow during the day is much greater than at night, for the tourists benefit.

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          • #6
            When I lived in NO I saw a lot of those structures up close. As Doc said, they are basicially earthen structures. They will use whatever trash fill/debris that is available. Broken up roadway pieces are a favorite as there is little stone in the region. Large stones add a lot of strength to the structure.

            Some of them have been supplemented with the interlocking steel planks used as retaining walls on construction sites. These can add 5-10 feet of height and provide some measure of erosion resistance if the water should overflow. Others have concrete of different sorts added to the top for similar reasons. Even concrete debris can add a significant measuer of erosion resistance if added to the top of a levee.

            Where it is used, poured concrete will have re-bar in it. At least when it is first installed. Salt water has a nasty habit of penetrating any small crack and eating up the steel. A 20 or 30 year old concrete structure that has been constantly exposed to salt water all that time may have severely weakened or even completely rusted re-bar. Weakened re-bar can easily snap clean and not show very much protrusion even at a fresh break. Add the general debris of a broken levee and the lake water rushing through and it can be hard to spot the re-bar even standing there, much less in TV pictures.

            Frankly, I am surprised at the criticism of the Army Corp of Engineers. The Army is the most competent agency on the NO scene. If you want to blame anyone, look to the presidents, congressmen, and other politicians who withheld funding for the improvements they wanted to make. Or look to the voters who always vote for the jackass who promises everything AND LOWER TAXES. You get what you pay for.

            Paul A.
            Ex Army Type and VERY PROUD of it.
            Paul A.
            SE Texas

            Make it fit.
            You can't win and there is a penalty for trying!

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            • #7
              Ahh, no, we pay in any case. Whether we get anything for it or not is another question.

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              • #8
                "Still are levee walls supposed to have re bar installed for re enforcement or not."

                Not the ones I've seen. They're made of dirt. Flood walls are made of concrete and flood gates are made of steel.

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                • #9
                  Actually the levee is made with a steel wall backed by CLAY
                  that was the part that failed

                  this is the same method Kalifornia uses on their "Earthen Dams", that give way every time a animal digs a tunnel from one side to the other

                  the sweet taste of economy, turns bitter with the reality of failure.

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                  • #10
                    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">the sweet taste of economy, turns bitter with the reality of failure.</font>
                    From what I've read the levees failed at areas that had been finished to the "Category 3" standard - i.e. were among the strongest levees in the system. Too bad the storm was a Cat 4 when it hit New Orleans, huh? Particularly since a Cat 4 storm can be expected every 60 years or so.

                    As for economy, if the local and state government didn't feel it was necessary to upgrade their levee system I don't think it's necessary for the funding to come exclusively from other state's taxpayers (federal taxes). If I read right a major part of the federal funds made available in the 1960's were not used because of a failure of the locals to provide the (10%?) matching funds. At the same time they were able to fund the Superdome, Riverwalk, convention center, etc.

                    I see it kind of like having a neighbor who's always throwing parties, but want to borrow all your tools when he needs them. Sorry, but a failure on my neighbor's part to plan doesn't place any particular obligation on my part.

                    I'd suggest relocating everyone out of the flooded areas and allowing them to return to wetlands over time - killing 2 birds with one stone as it were.

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                    • #11
                      Another point to remember is that the political
                      control of each NO levee is controlled by a separate commitee and political hacks. No wonder nothing was done!

                      1

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                      • #12
                        If you notice on some of the TV pictures, one side of a canal has a concrete topped levee and the other side just plain dirt. Those canals are on the parish boundaries and the earth levee side is flooded while the concrete topped side is dry. Guess which side is the City of NO. I strongly suspect that those canal levees are built and maintained by the local city or parish while the levees on the river and lake are Core of Engineers. As far as I can observe, the breaks were mostly in the canal levees, not the lake or river.

                        Local politicians. Need I say more?

                        Paul A.


                        Paul A.
                        SE Texas

                        Make it fit.
                        You can't win and there is a penalty for trying!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Read the Army corp of enginerrs manual EM 110-2-2602 retaining and flood walls.And/or EM110-2-1913 designandconstuction of levees. dowload it an many others from http://www.usace.army.mil/inet/usace...manuals/em.htm

                          [This message has been edited by Tin Falcon (edited 09-08-2005).]
                          Ad maiorem dei gloriam - Ad vitam paramus

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                          • #14
                            I hear a lot of hindsight along the lines: "we could have spent 100 million before to prevent this problem, now its going to cost 100 billion." This is faulty thinking because, without knowing where the crises is going to occur, you would also have to spend the same amount on the 1000 other potential problems out there. This situation probably deserved more funding but people always think if they would have fixed this one little thing, now that its obvious which one it is. Its usually not possible to predict the next crises and the facts of life are that it is sometimes more expedient to clean up an actual mess than it is to protect against all the potential ones. I'm sure that honest risk management takes a back seat to political manuevering anyway. Got any smartass newscasters out there that can tell us where the next crises is going to be?

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                            • #15
                              I read on one site today that part of the Federal Funds that were supposed to be used on levee maintenance was actually siphoned off/diverted to build a marina and to subsidize the floating casinos. Wonder if this is true or not? If is it, some local NO officials ought to be in deep trouble.

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