Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

5-C Angle?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • 5-C Angle?

    I'm making a 5-C collet holder for my lathe and my beginners library doesn't have this info.

  • #2
    10* http://www.cox-internet.com/drspiff/...ts/Collets.htm
    Jim H.

    Comment


    • #3
      1oD as stated. This should give you just about any collet question you could have an answer

      http://www.hardinge.com/usr/pdf/collet/2348.pdf

      ------------------
      If we lie to ourselves, what lies will we willingly tell to others
      Forty plus years and I still have ten toes, ten fingers and both eyes. I must be doing something right.

      Comment


      • #4
        Before you cut the inside threads for the closer nut/drawbar, nominally 1.224 x 20TPI
        you might want to get your collets and
        mike the thread diameters. Mine ranged
        from 1.222 to 1.227 and my closer was a bit
        too tight for 3-4 of the collets, had to
        smear some clover compound on them and lap
        to fit. Since the fit doesn't have to be
        real tight, it behooves you to use the
        largest diameter collet as your checking
        thread. There were only four of 18 collets
        above 1.225 in size but it is really hard
        to pick up an inside thread once you have
        taken the setup down. Steve
        Steve

        Comment


        • #5
          Why does everyone make such a fuss over 5C collets ?

          They are totally outdated nowdays.
          OK in their day they probably were the most common but that doesn't make them the best.

          Time to move on.

          John S.
          [ donning flame proof vest ]
          .

          Sir John , Earl of Bligeport & Sudspumpwater. MBE [ Motor Bike Engineer ] Nottingham England.



          Comment


          • #6
            To what one may ask. Is the 5C perfect? No but not much else is either. Properly used they are hard to beat from what I have seen. And for the individual operating in a home shop they are about the only option other than chucks. The problem I think most people who have made adaptors for 5Cs to fit their lathes is they are adapting them to smaller machines that lack the bore capacity to properly use them and consequently have them hanging too far out from the spindle bearings. A sure recipe for disastar IMO. If one has the bore large enough for the 5C to be mounted internally that is where it should be. Besides they have the virtue of being inexpensive
            Forty plus years and I still have ten toes, ten fingers and both eyes. I must be doing something right.

            Comment


            • #7
              <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by John Stevenson:
              Why does everyone make such a fuss over 5C collets ?

              They are totally outdated nowdays.
              OK in their day they probably were the most common but that doesn't make them the best.

              Time to move on.

              John S.

              [ donning flame proof vest ]
              </font>
              I don't use them, use 3C instead.

              But the 5C are $5 per each, can't hardly beat that with a stick.

              Oh, yeah, they still work as well as they did before they became outdated.

              The collets with more "squeeze" are nice, but extremely pricey, even if they have a large fit range. And, the holders aren't available for many older tapers.

              Some don't have holders with a thru hole, which is a big deal-killer right there.
              1601

              Keep eye on ball.
              Hashim Khan

              Comment


              • #8
                John Stevenson:
                I totaly agree, I prefer the wide range of ER or other double angle collets. As a result I rarely use a drill chuck - always have ER-25's in my mini-mill for drilling, milling, and reaming.

                Merry Christmas - ya skinny bugger!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thrud has it with the double angle collets.
                  The ER are becoming very popular now, much as the 5C's were and just because something is now cheap doesn't mean it's good.

                  The problem with 5C's are their small range compared to say ER's, just a few thou over 40 thou - no contest.

                  I must have about 40 5C's kicking about in imperial and metric sized and I'm always being blindsided by a queer size.
                  18 ER32 collets will cover from 1/16" up to just over 3/4" with no gaps, metric or imperial included.

                  You also get to use these for work holding AND tool holding, something 5C's can't do.
                  This means you can use then in both ends of the lathe and the mill spindle.

                  I'm running a job at the moment, Ground rod 0.520" diameter, some to be turned to 0.425 and some to 0.443"
                  Would be nice to use a collet in the lathe then swop to the spin indexer.
                  Not a cat in hells chance without three new emergency collets that will probably be useless after.

                  Take a fresh look at ER's guys, time to move on.
                  Cost isn't everything and anyway do have a look, we are getting US made collets here very cheap now and the way pricing works here you guys should be getting them even cheaper.
                  J&L has them on offer here for آ£7.00 UKP so they should be about $7.00 in the US which is usually how it works.

                  20 years ago 5C ruled, no one had heard of ER's, neither had we heard of digital calipers.

                  John S.
                  .

                  Sir John , Earl of Bligeport & Sudspumpwater. MBE [ Motor Bike Engineer ] Nottingham England.



                  Comment


                  • #10
                    John for cutting tools I find I have to agree with you. I can probably count on one hand the number of times I have run tooling in a 5C collet in over 30 years. And then it was simply an expidient way to do the job. Slitting saws on arbors in the lathe headstock cutting slots at an angle to the canter line is one. But the ER will never from the tooling I have seen available match the speed and ease of use the 5C has. Plus the 5C is more than just the collets we are all familiar with for the most part. The whole family of expanding, extended nose and pot chucks is were the 5C really shines
                    Forty plus years and I still have ten toes, ten fingers and both eyes. I must be doing something right.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      SD,
                      You remarks are true but it's all grandfather rights stuff.
                      Lathe spindle noses were made with 5C because it was popular, not because it was the best.
                      5C isn't always a viable proposition on smaller lathes hence the pot chucks.

                      Not all lathes can get a 5C inboard but the shorter ER would be possible.

                      We are not seeing them used because the mounting infrastructure isn't there yet.

                      Something like that new Myford lathe with the big bore spindle could have had an ER40 straight up the spout, lets face it you need an adaptor to hold a centre anyway so what's wrong with having a different adaptor.

                      Hard fact is, as short as one year ago ER was industry based. Now look at Ebay and the smaller tooling houses catering for the home shop, ER collets and collet chucks all over the place.
                      How long before the Chiwanese realise that they can get extra revenue by boring their spindle noses to ER specs ?

                      It's going to happen.

                      Watch this space.........

                      John S.
                      .

                      Sir John , Earl of Bligeport & Sudspumpwater. MBE [ Motor Bike Engineer ] Nottingham England.



                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Whatever..........

                        ER holders apparently do NOT commonly have thru holes. If so, that knocks them right out of the running before they get their shoes on.

                        Out of curiosity, if they fit smaller machines, why do the ER sets I have bothered to look at seemingly all have SOLID taper holders at 3MT size?

                        BTW, Morse taper is also totally outdated....time to scrap all those old lathes!

                        My question to you all is why the Jacobs Rubberflex, which seems to have pre-dated the ER AND had thru holes, large range, and high accuracy, long gone and as dead as Kelsey's nuts?

                        Why did THEY have thru holes and the ER setups don't?

                        1601

                        Keep eye on ball.
                        Hashim Khan

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          JT,
                          It's not the fault of the collet that the holders don't have a thru hole.
                          Most of these holders are Toolholding not work holding so it doesn't matter.
                          An R8 doesn't have a thru hole, there's a bloody great draw bar there.
                          No reason why you couldn't bore a lathe nose out to hold an ER collet and then it would be a thru hole.

                          You don't nesesarily need a holder to hold a collet.
                          5C goes into spindle noses, R8 goes into spindle noses, both have no need for a holder.

                          In fact I have never seen a R8 holder other than a Bridgy attachment.

                          You ask about the Jacobs rubberflex chucks, simple answer is price. Would you pay $1000 for a set of collets?

                          ER collets do have a thru hole so there is no problem with them.
                          The problem is people adapting to them.

                          If a 5C has to grip a piece under it's stated size it will but it goes barrel mouthed to do so and only grips on the outer edge.
                          The more undersized the worse it is so at some point it's hardy worth using a collet for accuracy if the job is waggling about in the wind.
                          Rather defeats the object.

                          The point I'm trying to make is we have the collets to get by previous limitation of the 5C, namely bulk which limits it's installation on many machines.
                          It is rather bulky to say it only grips on the first 1/2", and it size holding limitations.

                          Double angle collets because of the way they are made with opposing slits in the body close down parallel and remain parallel.

                          John S.
                          .

                          Sir John , Earl of Bligeport & Sudspumpwater. MBE [ Motor Bike Engineer ] Nottingham England.



                          Comment


                          • #14
                            For workholding for the average home shop, 5C collets are as good as anything else. My lathe, T&C cutter and some other odds & ends use 5C. My mill uses R8. I am satisfied with both systems, and see no need to change.

                            If I were running a paying shop, or just tooling up a new shop with a generous budget, I would probably go with the latest, bestest available tooling. Otherwise, I will stick with what I have, it is payed for, and serves the purpose.

                            Some disadvantages of the ER are overhang as mentioned and inability to work at the face of the collet as the nut is in the way. There are no expanding ER collets I am aware of, so you can't grip on the ID. There are no pot collets available, so you can't use them for large diameter, thin sections. There are no quick acting draw bars or collet chucks like the Hardinge/Sjogren available that I am aware of for production work. The lack of a through hole in most holders and provision for a collet stop also limits use for production work. To cover the range covered by 5C collets, you would need 2 or 3 sets of ER collets and holders.

                            It is interesting that while the 5C has been around for (how) many years, hundreds of other collet styles have come and gone. The 5C is still alive and well. There may be better, but there sure have been a lot that were not as good or versatile.
                            Jim H.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              John,

                              It is time for you to start producing spin indexers that use ER collets. I am granting you a full license to produce any variation you like for the small royalty of 2% on each one sold and for one operational sample of each variation.
                              North Central Arkansas

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X