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Journeyman Papers

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  • #16
    Geez..what a whacky world the New World is! I've been reading this thread and I just LOVE the references to the Constitution and how it is screwing up a simple thing like the issueing of a licence, or title's.

    Reminds me how happy I am that we in merry Olde Englande manage with an unwritten constitution! (but, I'm not saying we're perfect...)

    As for the way things in this part of the Old World work (or at least used to!!) I 'served' a 5 year apprenticeship within the Machine Tool industry (Alfred Herberts, Coventry), I did one day a week college release and a further 2-3 nights a week evening courses for the time of my apprenticeship. I was paid about 1/6th the average skilled rate during my first year rising to about 2/3rds rate by the end of my 'time'. On completion of my 5 years I was 'fired' at 12 noon ~ a ceremony requiring you to walk down the shop with streamers and bunting attached, and carrying your toolchest!

    The tradition then required the reporting for work the next morning, where on you then became a 'journeyman'. This meant that pay was now at about 90% of skilled rate for the following year.

    Being apprenticed in a City with a strong professional Guilds tradition meant that on becoming a 'tradesman' I was invited to apply for my 'Freedom of the City', an ancient title which allowed me to, among other things, trade without let or hinderance within the City, and to graze my sheep upon the common lands of the City. A beautiful illuminated scroll (19 shillings and 6 pence extra) records this honour and is displayed prominently in my hallway at home.

    Unfortunately, about 20 years ago, they built 4 lane ring road over the common land of the City, highly dangerous for grazing sheep!!!!



    • #17
      Well, RR...

      Our government in the United States is also unconstrained by a written constitution. Don’t like the fact that the written constitution contains a prohibition preventing the federal government from infringing the right of its citizens to keep and bear arms? Pretend the words don’t say what they say. Want to engage in social engineering through constitutional mandate? Discover a federally protected “rightâ€‌ to kill your own children before they’re born. What? It doesn’t exist in the written constitution? Just look for a “penumbraâ€‌ of intended protections which, although not written, somehow “emanateâ€‌ from what is written. Want to use taxpayer money to buy more votes for your senatorial or congressional seat? Ignore constitutional restrictions on federal authority and force the individual states to impose your bribery (welfare) plan under threat of bankruptcy from withheld federal funds (which BTW, never should have been taken from the citizens of the states in the first place). I could go on for hours and fill pages.

      See, we’re not so different after all!


      • #18
        Tony, I think you have, as folks in these here parts used to say, 'hit the nail smack on the head'!
        Lynn (Huntsville, AL)


        • #19

          With the unwritten constitution we can do anything, so long as there is not a law forbidding it. Unfortunately, given some 1000 years of the Government system there are laws dating back into the mists of time that everyone has forgotten about ...until you do 'it' and the Government doesn't like 'it', and 'find' the relevent legislation outlawing 'it'.

          As you rightly said (or implied) there exists little constraint on a Government, whatever the constitution. The people are in the end the only constraining factor and the Government gets 5 years (UK), and 4 years (US) to do as it likes before the peoples day of reckoning.

          Like a mate of mine said many years ago "...if a builders labourer can't push a wheel barrow over a plank, he gets found out in 5 minutes. If a Government can't govern , they get found out in 5 years, if the CEO of a multi-national can't CE he gets 10 years before he's found out..."

          Bet you can't graze your sheep in Downtown LA though!!


          [This message has been edited by Ragarsed Raglan (edited 11-14-2002).]


          • #20
            This thread has caused me more loss of sleep than most.

            The original constitution envisioned a central govenrment with no power excepting to deal with matters concerening the federal government, defense of the states, and peaceful relations between the states. The states were to decide how to conduct their internal affairs and only voluntarily would they become alike in the laws. The better system would prevail. A "Grand Experiement". By the way, we havehad two constitutions, the present and the articles of confederation which is older than the present "constitution". Before the states would accept the present constitution, they insisted on 10 amendments- the last stateing that the states had all rights excepting those reserved to Fed Gov (which were not many). Some where along the line the bureaucrats seized power and their power is ever increasing.

            I am beginning to think maybe "licensing" is at the core of the path we are on. Licensing and certification lead to abuse and incompetance with out bounds. Requiring a diploma to get a job leads to getting a diploma to get a job and then stagnating as much as possible.

            Comments? STEVE


            • #21
              Its is called the WTC, Free trade, Big business, Bill Gates, The Roman Catholic Financial Empire, ISO certification, Koyoto Accord. Or just selling us down the river for a dollar. We are no longer men, no longer serfs, not even slaves. We are bought and sold on the open market as a commodity. We have no rights, and they do not want us to have guns, because the day will come when the rug will be yanked out from under our feet and we will not be able to give our despots their comeupance.


              • #22
                [) that U.S.Contitution,section 9, sates: "Clause 8: No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: ....." is still interpeted to include issueing titles as Doctors, Lawyers, Teachers, Engineers, electriaincs etc as bing titles of Nobility.

                What about my FCC technician license?
                Federal-Title-License, no?

                Ron aka veeguy


                • #23
                  Thrud: People seem to love rules and laws. We just had a Florida constitutional amendment to be sure pregnant pigs get exercise. Passed by about 80% in favor. How in world can people vote for men and wind up evenly divided yet agree 8 to 2 that pigs need protection, that class rooms are better at 20 studnets per room as opposed to 21?

                  I think every one wants more rules to control theother guy, regardless of the subject matter. then wake up oneday and discover none of us have any rights.

                  VeeGuy- my first phone license did not make me a first phone it licensed me to do certain things that would not belegal for a non certified person to do. Ability means nothing in the world of certificates. Get certified and you automaticlly assume you are competant. But the real test is "can you do the job?". Not to worry, I am sure some titles have slipped through. Examples mean nothing in law- it seems to be history and prior rulings. Those who have certificates lovethe certification process. Gives them job protection, reduces competition, most important- it freezes technology so the holderdoesn't become obselete.


                  • #24
                    I too am becoming annoyed with all the BS rules. What ever happened to common sense? All my cat cares about is her two meals (per vet instructions) per day, getting petted per her schedule, sleeping, and using the litter. Life should not be more complicated than that or we have lost something in the translation. Maybe I am just getting too idealistic in my old age.


                    • #25
                      I remember working with one of the certified papered Journeyman machinists once. Had to rework most of the parts he made.

                      Those papers are valuable, he got paid more for a while, till he got canned because of all the scrap he made that I had to rework.


                      • #26
                        How about a new magazine? The Home Shop Anarchist. Or maybe a new col. in HSM. Anarchy in the Shop. Is anyone else jealous of the truly stupid people? I bet they never think of this stuff. They live thier lives like Thrud's cat (no offense to the cat).
                        The sad thing is that if you are just fed up, that is, you do not think the gov. should be regulating how many squares you wipe with, you are commonly regarded as a radical. Mike


                        • #27
                          If I am in a government building I will use the entire roll and ask for seconds and thirds from adjacent stalls. It is better that I throw it down the ****ter than they piss it out the window...

                          All I have to say is that I love Government auctions - I can buy last years state of the art computer network gear for 1/300 of what I pay wholesale for one. It is the only place I can afford to shop anymore!