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ISO & the jobber shop

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  • ISO & the jobber shop

    WOndering if any of you out there have had any experiences working with or implementing an ISO program in your shop.. We're starting the process in our shop, seems like a lot of work and money to implement a paper trail.

  • #2
    Yeah. We had to do the ISO routine at the last place I worked, a computer hardware/software development company. In that environmnet it was (IMHO) ludicrous, as every project was new, required new methods and procedures, and we spent far more time documenting what we were doing than we could ever get back in benefits later on, because later on we'd be doing it differently, anyway. Besides, as best I can tell, ISO is absolutely no guarantee that your product will be any good. You can precisely document how to build a lousy product just as well as you can document how to build a good product.

    Enough rant. One suggestion: keep the documentation as general as you can get away with, so you don't have to update it every time you make a minor change to procedure.
    ----------
    Try to make a living, not a killing. -- Utah Phillips
    Don't believe everything you know. -- Bumper sticker
    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects. -- Will Rogers
    There are lots of people who mistake their imagination for their memory. - Josh Billings
    Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
    Don't own anything you have to feed or paint. - Hood River Blackie

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    • #3
      <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by SGW:
      Yeah. We had to do the ISO routine at the last place I worked, a computer hardware/software development company. In that environmnet it was (IMHO) ludicrous, as every project was new, required new methods and procedures, and we spent far more time documenting what we were doing than we could ever get back in benefits later on, because later on we'd be doing it differently, anyway. Besides, as best I can tell, ISO is absolutely no guarantee that your product will be any good. You can precisely document how to build a lousy product just as well as you can document how to build a good product.

      Enough rant. One suggestion: keep the documentation as general as you can get away with, so you don't have to update it every time you make a minor change to procedure.
      </font>
      What SGW said.A monumental waste of time.

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      • #4
        We are going thru it at work now. Trying to obtain ISO 9002 status. After serving in submarine navy and having to follow their quality standards it really makes ISO standards a joke. Can anyone tell me if GM certifies your company, what says Ford has to recognize that certification.

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        • #5
          My company (not "mine", just where I work) went through that "madness" a few years ago. Our former CEO was one of those "idea of the month" subscribers (Like when we went to a paperless documentation system. All electronic, except were necessary. Now we use more paper than before. Go figure??...but that's another story), so he figured we hadn't done anything "new" lately, and.....GUESS WHAT??? We did the whole ISO route. Now we just have to have "audits" and "re-certifications" on a periodic basis.

          ISO does have some inherent advantages (it forces everyone to utilize consistent processes to produce components), but for many things it is a real PITA. If you have "any" input into the process (as others said), try to keep it simple/general (if the implementation team will allow you to). That may keep the nightmare to something reasonable, but I doubt it. (My company went to "too" much detail on the processes. Our guys can't open a paint can without a process.)

          In the long run, ISO certification is probably worthwhile if your company does alot of "subcontract" work or provides equipment for large companies. Many of the larger companies request that their subcontractors have ISO credentials of some sort, so it can put you at the top end of their "supplier" list sometimes. As more and more companies become certified, that advantage becomes less prelavent.

          Anyway, my 4 cents worth (took twice as much space as it was worth).

          Regards......Rodger
          RPease

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          • #6
            I have been that route in my last job - primary reason for doing it was to get on the US Military Supplier list.

            It is a royal PITA and when the company you work for are too stupid to get their **** together on paper in the first place it is a waste of time. All companies should be doing everything consistantly and always follow their own rules (carved in Diamond so you can't screw with it) so their customers know what to expect each and every time. A concept lost on most apparently.

            I was nearly fired when they said we were going for ISO 9001 certification when I blurted out "We are never going to get 9001 when we can't even get (my supervisor) to lie consistantly to all the managers". I was told to shut up. They made my life a living hell after that - tried everything to get me to quit. I made the bastards fire me so I could sue them - but they settled out of court.

            Some one had to do it...

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            • #7
              The secret to ISO 900X is to have all your ducks in a row before you have a need for it. In the shop that means a documented tool calibration program of some kind, access to shop measuring standards, a designated inspector having real qualifications (not just the shop sycophant), on-going material cert program where stock remnents are imppecibly identified and so on.

              Most shops already have the ingredients. The question is whether to invest in the horsefeathers it take to gain certification. If you sub for a 900X shop you can work under their umbrella if you farm out your inspections.

              The point is 900X certification is merely a program that documents resources, plant equipment, training, processes, and records of manufacture of good having a certian level of confidence. It's a classic example of how to apply an rule pased administrative fix to a practical problem.

              Case in point. On "60 Minutes" years ago, Morely Safer compare the accidental fire record of Philadelphia to that of Geneva Switzerland. Both cities of about the same size having the same industial and commercial base. Philidelphia had ten time the fire loss of Geneva. Philidelphia also had ten time as complex and comprehensive fire regulations as Geneva.

              Rules are no better than the people willing to disregard them.

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              • #8
                This ISO garbage is scam, brought to you by the same morons who tout Demming and Six Sigma, People can't hold a real job making useless work for those that do. Standards,QA,
                training,productivity. We used to have all these things ISO says it will provide only back in the old we called it, common sense and pride in doing a good job.
                starrett's CMM division was ISO ceritifed, where are they there at today.
                Sorry for the rant boys, but I'm tried of everyone telling me how to do my. Next they come around, ask one of them to show you how to sharpen a drill bit, they'll soon head for the office calling you a non-team player.
                I work with today's new millinuem big bucks action techincans, they can't read amike unless it is an electronic digital and god forbid if the paint markings have worn off a piece of stock, Too stupid to take a file, acid or a grinder to it to figure what it is,toss 18-8 stainless in the dumpster because they could read the markings. I asked the fool " I said what happens if the guy marking the steel at the mill is a moron like you and paints the wrong number on it" The question overloaded his ISO certified brain.
                Non, je ne regrette rien.

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                • #9
                  Chief

                  Very well said!!! ISO is a joke!!!I'm in the chemical industry and when we get a batch of say, ethylene glycol, a cert must accompany it. Everything on the cert says it is in spec,so we are permitted to use it. We don't check any of the properties, we just use it, because the cert says it's good. After getting "burned" a couple times I always check to see what the real water content is because you cannot rely on the bogus numbers on the cert.

                  Chris

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                  • #10
                    We went through this ISO 900X sh*t about 10 years ago. IMHO it's all about management wrestling back control from the shop floor, they need to get control back because the new breed of managers are p*ss poor. They have gone to university to come out with a piece of paper that says they are an engineer; when they hit the first big problem they haven't got a clue ~ reason ~ they've never had to do it themselves, they don't understand the intricate way in which the shop floor environment works. Good managers know how it works because they have been there and done it, used the system to get what they wanted done in the shortest time with the best outcome for all.

                    Many years ago we had a poster in our shop with a goofy looking, acne faced kid with a 'diploma' tucked under his arm, the title read " 6 Munces ago I couln't spil injinur ~ now I are one"......many a true word is said in jest!!!

                    The best description I've ever seen concerning ISO 900X was on this board (sorry I can't remember who posted it).... it said ....."ISO 9001 allows you to manufacture crap, so long as you say what you are going to make crap, and record that you did it"..... Absolutely True!!!!

                    My advice to anyone confronted with this bureaucratic nightmare is to ensure the 'system' is as wide open as possible. Say that your process is to define the process best suited to the job in hand on an empirical basis. That the methods used will be those that best match the speediest, and easiest work profile given resources available. We have done this in my current job position and got away with it, no 2 jobs of ours are the same, we reserved the right to change our working system on the basis of the above.

                    Only don't look now but ISO 900X is dead in Europe ~ they just dreamed up ISO 16949!!

                    RR

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                    • #11
                      We went through ISO also and the only thing I can see that it has accomplished is, it gives someone outside of you company the power to tell you how to run it.IMHO useless.

                      ------------------
                      Paul G.
                      Paul G.

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                      • #12
                        We're ISO-9001. An utter waste of time and money. Either you have a quality system in place and use it or you don't. With ISO, you say what you do and you produce paper which SAYS that you did it. All the BS procedures in the world are not going to substitute for SKILL. With ISO, if you produce crap, say so and document it, all is well ! We spend more time producing useless documents which fill file folders.

                        If you haven't noticed, many others, from your car dealer to your doctor's office, are applying similar techniques now. Usually get a call a few weeks after a trip to the dealer for service. I think that feedback my end up in the same file folder I mentioned earlier.

                        Sorry but for me, ISO-900x = rant_mode_on !

                        Oh, almost forgot, we were driven to ISO by RFQs which demanded it but it now seems to have fallen by the wayside.

                        Den

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                        • #13
                          ISO certification like just about anything else is not appropriate for all situations. Also, if it is implemented as a mandate from on-high without workers seeing any benefit from it all you will get is garbage.

                          It is useful to document procedures to insure that everbody knows how to do things, and that things are made the same each time. This can truly improve quality (In many but not all situations). Also, you don't have situations where you can no longer make something if "Joe" quits or gets sick.

                          Some "Joes" are threatened, thinking that this eliminates their job security. This is a poor source of "job security".

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                          • #14
                            I've worked for three companies that went through the ISO process, actually the last company was so messed up, they didn't get certified.

                            There are two quotes that accurately define the ISO process, one is that ISO is meant to hamstring US companies so they will be as inneficient as EU companies (no insult intended towards our European brothers, but I see alot of truth in that statement). The other statement was already quoated, ISO doesn't have anthing to do with quality, it just means you'll produce the crap you always have, but it will be well documented crap. Not to mention you'll have to hire some folks to run the document control department, and a percentage of workers time will be spent on documentation.

                            The sad thing is, I think often times the ISO process will cause quality to drop, as folks are spending their energy on documenting what they do, instead of doing what they do well.

                            Now, if you have to be ISO to get work from your customers, then it is a necessary evil. The best advise I have is hire a good ISO certification company that knows your industry, and take their exspensive advice on how to implement it. If you have your management and engineers try to make sense of ISO and implement it, you'll waste even more time and money.

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                            • #15
                              RR: You say""......many a true word is said in jest!!!". Very true, because many timnes time truth is so bitter, it takes a spoon full of sugar to makethe medicine go down and stay. When we find a way to make things into an acceptable joke, the end of the troubles may be in sight---- When the butt of the joke laughs too.
                              Steve

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