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OT: Plug in hybrid review.

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  • #76
    It seems you have some sort of agenda against EVs and other clean, green technology, so you offer the absolute worst case examples to devalue such options. My example may be a little too optimistic, but I think it is reasonably close to what would be expected under average environmental and driving conditions. Here in MD, and in most nearby and more southern states, normal daytime temperatures are closer to 25-40F for the winter season, and -5F would be seen only a few days of the year and mostly at night, when most people are not driving. Here are some articles about heating and cooling of EVs:

    http://www.electric-vehiclenews.com/...-electric.html (3.5-5 kW heating/cooling, 750 watt for direct heating)

    https://www.greencarreports.com/news...-heating-video (using combustible fuels for heating)

    https://insideevs.com/news/342782/ho...extreme-temps/

    On average, an ambient temperature of 20°F resulted in a 12 percent decrease of combined driving range and a 9 percent decrease of combined equivalent fuel economy (when compared to testing conducted at 75°F).

    On average, an ambient temperature of 95°F resulted in a 4 percent decrease of combined driving range and a 5 percent decrease of combined equivalent fuel economy (when compared to testing conducted at 75°F).

    On average, HVAC use at 20°F resulted in a 41 percent decrease of combined driving range and a 39 percent decrease of combined equivalent fuel economy (when compared to testing conducted at 75°F).

    On average, an ambient temperature of 95°F resulted in a 17 percent decrease of combined driving range and an 18 percent decrease of combined equivalent fuel economy (when compared to testing conducted at 75°F).
    There are, unquestionably, downsides to "green" technology such as EVs and solar/wind power, but the benefits are enormous, and the problems should be looked at as challenges to engineering for the future, and not as a reason to regress to the wasteful paradigms of the past.
    Last edited by PStechPaul; 11-07-2019, 12:05 AM.
    http://pauleschoen.com/pix/PM08_P76_P54.png
    Paul , P S Technology, Inc. and MrTibbs
    USA Maryland 21030

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    • #77
      and then there's the cold hard facts of physics and common sense...

      Good point. Unfortunately you have not actually provided any hard facts (AKA Data) to apply the common sense to. The interior's cubic feet, the insulation levels, R value of the glass and many other things would have to be analyzed before you could draw any common sense conclusions.

      According to Wiki, an average small car A/C uses about 4 HP (3kW) . That's not a huge drain on a hybrid.

      Historical note; My first Prius used the heat from the engine and only ran the A/C when the engine was running. That occasionally made the climate control aspects a bit hit and miss, especially on a 110 degree day when you are stopped for 2 minutes at a traffic signal. When they implemented the electrically powered A/C and heat it was almost enough to convince some of us to upgrade to the newer model.

      Dan
      At the end of the project, there is a profound difference between spare parts and extra parts.

      Comment


      • #78
        Any energy used for non-propulsion tasks in an EV will either reduce the range, or else must be supplied by another source.

        Battery and motor waste heat is one source, but is probably less than what needed in most EVs and climates, especially while being conservatively driven. Battery losses are largest during charging, which involves more current than driving, in general.

        The advantage of battery loss as a source of heat is that it exists anyway, and you may as well use it. Heat can be used for cooling (as in a gas refrigerator), so the A/C need not drain the battery so fast as it apparently does.

        Originally posted by PStechPaul View Post
        It seems you have some sort of agenda against EVs and other clean, green technology, ....

        There are, unquestionably, downsides to "green" technology such as EVs and solar/wind power, but the benefits are enormous, .....
        "ARE enormous" should be replaced with "COULD BE enormous".

        A considerable number of EV's which are ostensibly clean and "green", actually run on coal, many others run on other earthbound fossil fuels potentially at a significant loss penalty vs direct internal combustion. Any advantage in efficiency in the power plant over the IC engine is diluted by transmission losses, and battery charging losses. Those losses are the worst for the short-time charge systems that are touted as making the EV more practical.

        The benefits right now should be looked at differently. The EV moves the pollution source, out of the ground-level inner city, and into the countryside, which removes the pollution from the dense area.The power plant does the dirty work, and the EV itself is clean.

        It is often said that "The solution to pollution is NOT dilution", but to a significant degree it is a solution, if you can get pollution out of densely populated areas where it does the most direct harm. Dilution does not remove any greenhouse gases, however.

        At the moment, that is the main advantage of an EV, unless you have a sufficiently large solar or wind array to charge your own car in a reasonable time. Overall, the total amount of electricity used is increased, and that is, in most places, still supplied by burning fossil fuels. The amount of available solar and wind power presently generated is not enough to charge all the EVs that do-gooders think should exist.

        EVs DO move the fossil fuel and it's burning to a location far away, so they can be more easily ignored. That allows people to feel much "greener" than is truly justified by the current state of the EV and its ultimate energy source.

        Nuclear power would be another thing entirely, especially if the stupid laws against re-processing are removed, so that more than 2% of the energy in nuclear fuel could be accessed. Nuclear does put heat directly into the environment, but does not itself trap heat from the sun.
        Last edited by J Tiers; 11-07-2019, 03:05 AM.
        1601

        Keep eye on ball.
        Hashim Khan

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        • #79
          Paul (and Dan) I can assure you i do not have some sort of agenda against EV's, in fact in some circumstances I like what they can do and same goes for the hybrids in fact to me more so - they make good sense in certain circumstances,

          it's a number crunching game whether they are right or not for any particular individual, the end goal is of course to "make sense" in the form of lower user cost AND environmental impact.... both which usually go hand in hand BUT not all the time...

          anyways, back to the original question --- yes it indeed matters where you live and with a vehicle with such a short electric range (but it's pretty amazing it even has one, most hybrids don't and can't rely on a plug in and using nothing but electric for 25 miles) it could be a game changer if you lived in a northern state (or canada or alaska or even where im at but high up in the mountains) and were bean counting if the car with this feature was going to be worth it or not,,,

          Danlb's done his homework with electrical cost... but if your electrical cost was high AND you lived in a northern state the feature may actually cost you money to "use" as in charging up and trying to drive with it for five of six months out of the year it may actually be sucking your wallet dry, it's a bite in the shorts when something is supposed to save you money and ends up costing you more, it's like safety features that get you killed, being counterproductive while spending more on the resources it took to make the GD thing is not good for anybody, that's all im saying is crunch the numbers first and see if it would just make more sense to get a conventional hybrid for where you live, it's designer car days - one size does not fit all...

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          • #80
            There's little fear that your electric rates will be as high as mine. My area has punative rates where the price for heavy residential users are raised to 4 times the normal price. According to https://www.chooseenergy.com/electri...ates-by-state/, there are only a handful of states where the average cost of electricity exceeds 20 cents per kWh. Alaska is one of them (second highest) and it's only 23 cents.

            California has a special rate plan for EV and PHEV owners where the prices from late evening to mid afternoon are very low. I'll probably switch to that at some point.
            At the end of the project, there is a profound difference between spare parts and extra parts.

            Comment


            • #81
              Just a chuckle and a data point.... Parallel parking and validating battery range.

              My neighbor and took a field trip to Harbor Freight in a neighboring town. He wanted some throwaway twist drills and I wanted a small "Clamp on the bench" two axis swivel vise. According to Google maps the route is 25.6 miles long. I have to climb the Altamont pass ( 770 feet ) and the foothills that it passes through to get to Tracy in the Central Valley.

              The car's display said we had 25.2 miles of range as we pulled out of the driveway. We chatted as we wound through the city streets on the way to the freeway. Only after we were on the freeway doing 68 MPH in the third lane did I point out that the car had been running on battery the whole time. He was quite surprised that it "drives just like a real car". I chuckled at that. Of course we discussed all the features as we drove and compared my car against the one he bought last year. He was fascinated by the way that the battery percent full display went up and down as we climbed the hills and went down the other sides.

              As we neared the offramp, it was my turn to be delighted. We had 0.6 miles of range left on the meter and we were two blocks from the store. As we parked it was still showing .2 miles range left. It's nice to see the real word accurately matching the car's predictions.

              The other chuckle came about as I pulled up in front of the house. I pushed the IPA button and followed the directions as I pulled up alongside a car parked at the curb. I folded my arms across my chest after putting it in reverse. Stan was busy looking out the window to see if I was going to hit the curb. When he looked back at me his jaw dropped. I was sitting there so casually as the wheel spun and the car slipped into the spot just like I would have parked it. I got a chuckle out of that too.


              At the end of the project, there is a profound difference between spare parts and extra parts.

              Comment


              • #82
                Quick update;

                There is a lot of mystery about charging PHEVs and EVs from home. For many cars the charger is simply a smart interface between a special plug (J1772 standard) on the car and the home wiring. The standard calls for an AC feed to the car where it is rectified and fed to the battery. The Prius uses this technique. Most public charging stations support it too.

                If you google "HOME EV CHARGER" you find yourself looking at "charging stations" that are permanently wired to the house and run upwards of $500. While that's a good idea if you are fully recharging after a 300 mile daily commute, many people only need to do a partial charge each day and don't need an 80 amp charger.

                The portable level 1 charger that came with my car is a practical choice. It's small enough to fit in the trunk compartment that is designed for it. It charges off of a normal 20 amp 120V circuit and can completely recharge the battery in a touch over 5 hours. In a pinch, you can use a 15 amp circuit but that may lead to tripping the breaker. On the car side it uses the same standard J1772 plug that the VOLT, LEAF and many other EVs use.

                It seemed like a nice idea to have a portable level 2 charger simply because it can draw twice the power and give me a full charge in less than 1/2 of the time. 2 hours in this case. I found one (Zencar) with a very good rating on Amazon for less than $200. It uses a 20 amp 220V circuit. The brand appears similar to many others. Amazon delivered it in less than 24 hours. I got it running with no problems.

                It was nice to see the energy used during a 10 minute drive replenished in only 20 minutes.
                At the end of the project, there is a profound difference between spare parts and extra parts.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Hey, could you drain the oil out of your Prius, except for 3/4's of a qt? I am curious as to how it handles it.

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by RB211 View Post
                    Hey, could you drain the oil out of your Prius, except for 3/4's of a qt? I am curious as to how it handles it.

                    Could I? Sure. No problem. If I keep it under 83 MPH and charge it daily I can probably run for weeks without any damage at all!

                    WOULD I? Hell no. Now if you will excuse me I need to go check the oil on my car. And on my hybrid generators. They were used for a total of 80 hours when PG&E did their 3 and a half day "safety blackout" and my wife did not know how to check the oil. Not her fault, since the dipstick is hidden under a cover and I managed to misplace the owner's manual before going out of town for a couple weeks.

                    Dan
                    At the end of the project, there is a profound difference between spare parts and extra parts.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by danlb View Post

                      It seemed like a nice idea to have a portable level 2 charger simply because it can draw twice the power and give me a full charge in less than 1/2 of the time. 2 hours in this case. I found one (Zencar) with a very good rating on Amazon for less than $200. It uses a 20 amp 220V circuit. The brand appears similar to many others. Amazon delivered it in less than 24 hours. I got it running with no problems.

                      It was nice to see the energy used during a 10 minute drive replenished in only 20 minutes.
                      That's one mild power consuming drive no? something's not adding up - cars fully charged range is 25 miles right? so you would think about 12.5 miles would take an hour to charge (60mph cruise) to half level,,, why 20 minutes for 10 minute drive? real slow drive im guessing and did not use anywhere near half range?

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                      • #86
                        Sorry Boomer, I was not doing a scientific test. I was getting a new toy to work. When I first tried to use the charger it did not go into charging mode. It took me a few minutes to realize the battery was already at 100%. So I took a drive to Lowes to pick up a 6-20R to match the plug on the charger.

                        According to google maps, the route I took should have taken 14 minutes and covered 4.6 miles. Some freeway, some city and some crawling through a crowded new shopping center to see what was there.

                        That's about 1/5th of the battery capacity, or . At 3500 watts, the charger (in level 2 mode) should have taken about 1/2 hour to charge. BUT....

                        After my drive I plugged in the charger in level 1 mode (120V input) for a while to make sure that it worked. I'm not sure how long that charged before changing to the 220V input.

                        Oh.. I should have started this post with "Of course it does not add up. It was a casual statement."




                        At the end of the project, there is a profound difference between spare parts and extra parts.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          A totally subjective note: We just completed a 1000 mile round trip to within a mile of the Mexico boarder and and back to the SF bay area. Mileage was great. The wife and I were quite comfortable.

                          I drove a bit more aggressively than normal last night. I guess I was anxious to get home. I found myself wanting to pass a guy who was driving erratically. He was not just driving poorly, he was weaving now and then. On top of that he would speed up till he was next to another car or truck and then slow way down so passing was a challenge. There was finally a clear spot but as expected he hit the gas as I overtook him in the right lane.

                          This was on a long, straight and level section of I-5 in the central valley of California where you can see forever and there is no cross traffic. The road had been recently paved and was nice and smooth, even in the truck lane. I had about several hundred feet between my car and the 65 MPH truck ahead of me so the passing zone was limited.

                          All that is a lead up to the fact that the Prius was doing 95 MPH when I completed the pass. According to Car and Driver magazine it has a 101 MPH top speed limited by an electronic governor. It felt no different than doing 75. No buffeting from the truck ahead. No shimmy, no feeling of instability in any way. The other car did as always, speeding up with me then slowing down to match the truck. I left them both behind and settled back down to a few MPH over the speed limit.

                          Now I have to check the tires to see what speed they are rated for. It's a bad idea to spend hours at a time exceeding the tire ratings.
                          At the end of the project, there is a profound difference between spare parts and extra parts.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Using my EV calculator: http://enginuitysystems.com/EVCalculator.htm

                            Vehicle weight: 3300 lb
                            Average speed: 37 MPH
                            Average acceleration: 0.1 m/s/s (1% slope)
                            Average power: 8.3 kW (11 HP)
                            Average energy: 222 Wh/m
                            Total distance: 5 miles
                            Total energy: 1100 Wh
                            Charge rate: 3500 W
                            Charge time: 19 minutes

                            http://pauleschoen.com/pix/PM08_P76_P54.png
                            Paul , P S Technology, Inc. and MrTibbs
                            USA Maryland 21030

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                            • #89
                              I will have to say this about my gen2 Prius, it is the most reliable car I have ever owned.

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by danlb View Post

                                Could I? Sure. No problem. If I keep it under 83 MPH and charge it daily I can probably run for weeks without any damage at all!

                                WOULD I? Hell no. Now if you will excuse me I need to go check the oil on my car. And on my hybrid generators. They were used for a total of 80 hours when PG&E did their 3 and a half day "safety blackout" and my wife did not know how to check the oil. Not her fault, since the dipstick is hidden under a cover and I managed to misplace the owner's manual before going out of town for a couple weeks.

                                Dan
                                I'm fascinated to know more about a hybrid generator, the concept seems a bit unlikely.

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