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  • Rifling Buttons

    While looking looking at eBay over Christmas i came across some vendors selling rifling buttons , i had not seen these before, i was aware of the process but not from a home work shop perspective, out of interest has any one here made a rifle barrel this way? was it a accurate barrel or for that matter made buttons on a home workshop

  • #2
    Surprisingly, yes-- i have made a rifling button. Some people versed in the black magic art of barrel making say it can't be done, but i did it anyway. It turned out rather well and showed some promise.
    Really, the harder part is devising the apparatus to smoothly draw the button through the barrel blank. This is a whole 'nother project in itself.
    And in a world where a whole bunch of varieties of rifled barrel blanks and barrel liners can be ordered online, i'm not sure why anyone would want to.

    .

    Comment


    • #3
      I have seen possibly the same rifling buttons on ebay. Few bucks from china. Some sellers also have ”interesting” rifling tool that is basically hydraulic bottle jack and some push pins.
      I really wonder how usable barrels you can make with those tools but maybe these are in demand in countries where its harder to buy legal or illegal guns..
      Location: Helsinki, Finland, Europe

      Comment


      • #4
        Douglas barrels are button rifled. Finish is very smooth and consistent, much favored by cast bullet shooters. Have owned several & have 4 now now on two switch barrel CPA single shot rifles. 32/40 38/55 & 2 .22RF. Years ago I visited the Douglas shop in Charleston West Virginia. Can’t tell you exactly how the rifling machine was set up but remember it as being large.

        I have rifled a barrel from a smooth drilled blank using old time frontier gunsmiths methods. Rectangular box with a cylinder & strap iron spiraled around to give the twist. Other end barrel mounted, rod & cutter pulled through, shims increasing the depth of cut each pass, interesting project don’t want to do it again. Home shop button rifle sounds difficult to me.

        Did the job in High School Metal Shop 50 plus years ago, imagine building a gun in High School shop today.

        Boats

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        • #5
          Look up this guy on You Tube. He is a bit (a lot actually) off the deep end some/most of the time but he does show how he makes buttons and rifles barrels.

          https://www.youtube.com/user/TheIdahoanShow
          The shortest distance between two points is a circle of infinite diameter.

          Bluewater Model Engineering Society at https://sites.google.com/site/bluewatermes/

          Southwestern Ontario. Canada

          Comment


          • #6
            Here’s some info from the home gunsmith forum.
            http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/...ing+and+button

            http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/...ing+and+button

            http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/...ing+and+button
            When I get Time... I'll...

            Comment


            • #7
              "Barrels and Actions" by Harold Hoffman contains a section on making a button rifling machine and also buttons as I recall.. The book is out of print but can be found on the used book sites I would think. The problem is not pulling or pushing the button thru the blank, it is getting a smooth, straight hole in the blank to start with. A button will not iron out reamer marks unless they are vanishingly shallow. Of course, this is a requirement for any kind of barrel rifling method except maybe hammer forging. It is a couple of orders of magnitude cheaper to buy a commercial barrel.

              RWO

              Comment


              • #8
                There are two types of buttoning: push and pull

                Push buttoning means you have to either figure some way to support the pushrod so it doesn't buckle, or keep stopping and swapping pushrods.

                Pull buttoning means you have to solder the button onto the end of the pullrod so it doesn't come off. If it does come off, you lose both the button and the barrel unless you have the equipment to treat it as a push button to get it through.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by twopintsplease View Post
                  out of interest has any one here made a rifle barrel this way? was it a accurate barrel or for that matter made buttons on a home workshop
                  If you are going to attempt to do it right, you need a deep hole drilling set up for your lathe, super slow feed rate (probably 1/10 of what your lathe's slowest feed is), high pressure oil system to flush out the chips, recycling and filtering the oil, reamers to ream the bore to size and finish, a long stroke hydraulic PULL press to pull the button through the blank w/o stopping. No bottle jack pump, pump, pump because static friction is much higher than kinetic friction,,,,all to make a barrel that is going to be inferior to a low cost Green Mountain barrel.

                  Home shop barrel making makes less than zero economic sense.



                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I've button rifled several pistol barrels, all so far in .380.

                    But I've purchased .45 ACP, ,22 and .25 ACP buttons and chamber
                    reamers. The barrels must have either a surrounding containment
                    tube or oversized diameter or else they will simply expand, and
                    not form the riflings. At least that's what I've been told by
                    the sellers and as a long time machinist that makes perfect
                    sense.
                    A perfect analogy is form threaded holes, the threads are
                    formed because the metal being formed has no where else to go.

                    The hole size and surface finish, plus the lubricant used, all
                    are very important.
                    I use a hydralic powered H press using a steel collar that
                    attaches to the ram's end, and inside that upward facing cup
                    there are two hardened roller washers with a needle thrust
                    bearing between, to minimize anti rotation forces of the push
                    rod, which is solidly attached to the bottom of said cup.

                    The rod itself is Tungsten carbide I purchased from Israel,
                    which I found on ebay. It's very stiff and slightly smaller than
                    the minimum pre rifled bores.
                    The rifling action is done in one continuous push, but I've
                    come to the conlusion that it doesn't need to be. It's possible
                    that adding consecutively longer pushrods every few inches may
                    show staging matks in the riflings.

                    I brought my experiments into the PracticalMachinist forum,
                    gunsmith section, and got a lot of guffaws from an old time home
                    shop gunsmith from Texas, I never figured out why he got offended,
                    and he seemed to get madder when I posted photos of beautifully
                    rifled bores using a strong light behind the barrel. ???
                    The answer to the "Why" question is simply the feeling of
                    empowerment that comes from suddenly finding oneself able to do
                    what was always beyond reach.
                    OK, one member of the PM forum private messaged me about rifle
                    barrels, I said that I'd read of someone pushing a button using
                    wafers along the length of the pushrod inside a tube.

                    Shortly after that he sent me a URL to a youtube video he made
                    of his answer to my description! He made a bunch of aluminum
                    collars with compression coil spring seats at each side, the bores
                    drilled (CNC lathe all) to the pusher diameter pus a few
                    thousandths. The collars, each separated by a short compression
                    spring were made to fit inside a steel tube, and the whole setup
                    pushed by a hydraulic rod mounted to an I beam with the rifle
                    barrel mounted at the other end.
                    You can look it up as I don't know what the rules here say about
                    posting a URL.

                    Anyway, his barrels are 304 stainless thin wall tube for air
                    rifles surrounded with a bored steel heavy walled barstock piece
                    to oppose the internal forces so the riflings are formed, and it
                    worked!
                    I don't remember what lube he used, but I've used a special
                    microfine molybdenum sulfate powder ("Moly Z") mixed by hand with
                    zinc based never seize, to excellent effect.
                    HSS rifling buttons will form many barrels riflings according to
                    what I've read, I have both HSS and carbide buttons.
                    My interest is strictly hobby home gunmaking for my own use.

                    I won't discuss what my interest would be if laws are made against
                    the second amendment contrary to the Constitution, please assume
                    I'd destroy all my guns and equipment.
                    partsproduction

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I am looking for information about how to make a
                      9mm Barrel using a 6 flutes Rifling Button.
                      Finished length would be about 4.5 inches [114.3mm] long.
                      I have Bar-Stock (material) that is .625 OD by .312 ID [16mm OD. and 8mm ID].

                      I would like to know what dimensions are needed to prepare for the process.
                      Like what is the proper ID size (hole dimension) it should be
                      before pressing a 6 flutes Rifling Button through the barrel.
                      Any information will be helpful.
                      I believe I would need to get something like 9x19 Luger 6/6 groove Rifling Button.

                      The
                      9mm finished Barrel Bore ID size: 0.3472" to 0.3484" [8.82mm to 8.85mm]
                      What is the bore size before using a 9mm Rifling Button ?


                      Any information will be appreciated.
                      Thank you
                      You may only view thumbnails in this gallery. This gallery has 2 photos.
                      Last edited by Bob Rifling Button; 01-08-2021, 06:53 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by cijuanni View Post
                        Home shop barrel making makes less than zero economic sense.
                        I'm in no rush to do a barrel, but, that said, I HAVE done a lot of other things that made no "economic sense", simply because I wanted to do whatever it was so that I would know how, in a better way than just reading about it.
                        3751 6193 2700 3517

                        Keep eye on ball.
                        Hashim Khan

                        If you look closely at a digital signal, you find out it is really analog......

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by J Tiers View Post

                          I'm in no rush to do a barrel, but, that said, I HAVE done a lot of other things that made no "economic sense", simply because I wanted to do whatever it was so that I would know how, in a better way than just reading about it.
                          Well you know the saying, time is money.

                          If you have the hours to spend making something vastly inferior to what could be purchased for little money, go ahead.
                          I don't.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by cijuanni View Post

                            Well you know the saying, time is money.

                            If you have the hours to spend making something vastly inferior to what could be purchased for little money, go ahead.
                            I don't.
                            Well, then YOU have a commercial shop, and so you must consider the income. You should go over to PM, because we here are in the main, not people who derive their mortgage payment from shop work.

                            People here may do something for the same reason I mentioned. Or just because they want to, and do not care a handful of swarf what you think or do not think.

                            Not discussing barrels in my case, because I am unlikely to rifle one, but I don't suppose that just because one if "us" does something that it has to be "vastly inferior". That's a bit of an insult to most here, including folks who do work that is very good indeed, superior to "commercial" work in many cases.

                            Would a button rifled barrel be "vastly inferior" if done by one of the better craftsmen here? Well, that's certainly your expressed opinion, but you could be quite wrong. The buttons are made by people, and there is no particular reason why they have to be "vastly inferior" if different people make them. Same for other stages of the process.

                            Hey, your head, your hangups, your opinions. Our shop, our rules, our time, and our work.
                            3751 6193 2700 3517

                            Keep eye on ball.
                            Hashim Khan

                            If you look closely at a digital signal, you find out it is really analog......

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by twopintsplease View Post
                              While looking looking at eBay over Christmas i came across some vendors selling rifling buttons , i had not seen these before, i was aware of the process but not from a home work shop perspective, out of interest has any one here made a rifle barrel this way? was it a accurate barrel or for that matter made buttons on a home workshop
                              This a a whole science on its own that reaches far beyond just being able to make a suitable button. Makes for a nice learning curve and a deep leap into improving one's understanding of materials science, but there are many obstacles and dangers before anything remotely "useful" comes out of it.
                              Legal implications aside, the universe shall present a novice rifling master with a multitude of serious challenges that involve many hours of precision work, experimentation and the grief of bitter failures. If one's interest is mainly focused towards mastering the process and understanding the many factors behind the different failure modes, then it makes for a great journey of exploration. But expect not to have stumbled upon a simple cheap and quick way of producing a dangerous key component of the firearms realm.

                              Comment

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