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  • #76
    Originally posted by J Tiers View Post
    The clear implication, even though you deny it, is pretty clear when the question is asked in that heavily loaded way: "If you are not an expert, your comments can be discounted and trivialized, you have no right to comment, and can be considered ignorant".
    Why do you make up fake quotes to claim that you are being silenced and persecuted?

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    • #77
      Originally posted by J Tiers View Post
      Oh, if there is any "tone" to it, it's totally about you and your direct and confrontational question...
      Get a grip, dude. Seriously.

      Comment


      • #78
        You know, with the new software, if you block someone like Jerry you never even know that he's posted something off the wall? Well, not until he posts adamantly about something that he has no experience in, and then gets caught blathering and starts blaming everyone for attacking him. The only flaw is that if someone quotes the inanities of a blocked user you will see that quoted part. No system is perfect for everyone.

        On Topic.... Many years ago there was a macintosh emulator that ran on Atari computers. It ran with 100% compatibility (used a real Apple ROM for the OS) and was faster on the Atari hardware than it was on the apple hardware. Virtual machines can be faster just because of how it services interrupts.

        Dan
        At the end of the project, there is a profound difference between spare parts and extra parts.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Glug View Post

          Why do you make up fake quotes to claim that you are being silenced and persecuted?
          LOL.... since when has some joker been able to "silence" me? If you do not understand that usage of unattributed "quotes", then you may need help with your reading skills.


          Until, and unless, you can show how to run a Win 10 program DIRECTLY in Linux, the assertions of my "knowing nothing about it" are just BS, smoke and mirrors.


          I do not pretend to (nor need to) understand the details about it beyond the evident fact that the programs I want to use run under Windows, not Linux, and updates will soon be no longer backward compatible with Win 7 etc, as the old toolkits are withdrawn and replaced. So they (or similar ones that others may want to use) will require a Win 10 system one way or another, virtual or actual.

          Ther are apparently some "almost windows" virtual environments available, and they seem to kinda work for some programs. I have been told directly that they do NOT work for the programs I use, so they are of no interest..

          Anyone using Windows programs may indeed be "stuck with Windows 10" and may as well get used to it. Which is all I said that got you all up on your horses.

          The only way out is to accept a different, substitute Linux program in place of the Windows one you have. You may no longer have access to past data using the new program if, as is often true, the files are in a proprietary format, unless there is a file converter for that format in the new program. (No, STEP files, for instance, are NOT a good data transfer means, they strip away virtually all of the CAD data). It's a lot to give up, you need a good reason.

          What part of that is not true?

          Tell us, or stop making claims.
          Last edited by J Tiers; 01-04-2020, 12:30 AM.
          1601

          Keep eye on ball.
          Hashim Khan

          Comment


          • #80
            Many years ago I had a "Baby Blue" card for my PC compatible computer, that allowed it to run CP/M and a native Z80 macro compiler (M80) and linker (L80). Eventually I got a cross-compiler and linker that ran directly on the PC under MSDOS. I used a ZAX Z80 emulator for debugging - I still have it but it hasn't been used for probably close to 30 years.
            http://pauleschoen.com/pix/PM08_P76_P54.png
            Paul , P S Technology, Inc. and MrTibbs
            USA Maryland 21030

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            • #81
              Originally posted by PStechPaul View Post
              Many years ago I had a "Baby Blue" card for my PC compatible computer, that allowed it to run CP/M and a native Z80 macro compiler (M80) and linker (L80). Eventually I got a cross-compiler and linker that ran directly on the PC under MSDOS. I used a ZAX Z80 emulator for debugging - I still have it but it hasn't been used for probably close to 30 years.
              That probably had the required hardware on it, with a communication means through to the PC. There have been several such over the years. They would just run the CPM (or other) programs directly, development tools or applications. Eventually most folks lost interest, as you seem to have done, for reasons such as new cross compilers, and lack of need to run applications from the old system..

              I have a number of older computers around, back to the SWTPC 6800 system, for which I still have an upgrade 6809 multi-thread processor card.

              Like old Windows OS' and systems, they all dropped out of use due to advances. Who wants to run the original MS-DOS anymore, unless for a special purpose?
              Last edited by J Tiers; 01-04-2020, 12:41 AM.
              1601

              Keep eye on ball.
              Hashim Khan

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by J Tiers View Post
                However, although I have Win 10, Win 8, Win 7, Vista, XP, Win 95, and Linux computers, most of them are around purely to run legacy programs...
                This is actually one of the really good reasons to use VMs. You could virtualize these physical machines and run them all one one (or more) computer(s). This may be more convenient, less of a hassle if a machine dies (VMs normally move from one computer to another seamlessly), and will free you of the space taken up by the old computers. You may get away with a P2V (physical to virtual) conversion so that you don't need to reinstall the old o/s and software. If you use Unity (that's a VMWare term, but I am sure other products have a similar feature), then your old and new programs can coexist on the same desktop. Normally with a VM, you see a window to the VM's desktop, but with Unity, you see a window to the application. The desktop it runs on remains hidden. It's very nice.

                You are right, virtualization will have a negative performance impact. You're running two (or more) operating systems, and that's always going to cost something in performance. But as others have also noted, your old applications may run faster if you run them on newer hardware. Not as fast as if they were running on the host o/s, but faster than your old Win95 machine. The performance impact on modern-ish hardware is minimal if you have enough memory. Not noticeable in typical applications that spend most of their time waiting for the user to do something.

                I've got 25 VMs on my machine. One runs nearly all the time, the others when needed. I'll sometimes have 10 or more VMs running at the same time. It beats the old days when I had old computers and removable hard disks for testing different operating systems. Even with that setup, you couldn't really do quick snapshots like you can with VMs.

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by J Tiers View Post
                  Tell us, or stop making claims.
                  Do you have a mouse in your pocket?

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by J Tiers View Post

                    The clear implication, even though you deny it, is pretty clear when the question is asked in that heavily loaded way: "If you are not an expert, your comments can be discounted and trivialized, you have no right to comment, and can be considered ignorant ON THE SUBJECT MATTER".
                    Jerry, your assumptions about VMs are incorrect. There is nothing wrong with being ignorant on the subject matter, except when one refuses to acknowledge it.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      I appreciate the many helpful suggestions/remedies offered here, but hate the can of worms that my original post has created. Especially since I don't know what the hell most of what some of you are talking about. While most of my win 10 newbie issues have been resolved, I have a particularly annoying one remaining. Each time I launch Chrome, the user account window pops up and asks if I want to allow this program to make changes to my computer. In order to proceed I have to click "Yes" and Chrome launches. The only means to stop seeing this pop up that I have found is to lower the user account control slider to the never notify setting which I don't think would be a good idea. I've tried all slider positions and none makes any difference. this is not a major problem, just an annoyance that I could do without.
                      “I know lots of people who are educated far beyond their intelligence”

                      Lewis Grizzard

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by cadwiz View Post

                        Jerry, your assumptions about VMs are incorrect. There is nothing wrong with being ignorant on the subject matter, except when one refuses to acknowledge it.
                        But I have acknowledged it!

                        I do not know anything about them past that they do not seem to do what I want. I have not made any particular assumptions past that they do not allow a program that needs Win 10, to operate without it, and that as there is more S/W involved, the possibility for slowdowns is increased.

                        I said all I know is that if I ran win 10 in a VM, it seems that I am still running win 10, so how does that escape using windows? I have not, do not, and WILL not claim I know any damn thing about it other than it does not appear to me to have an advantage I care about, and all I see in it is using more "stuff" but not avoiding Windows.

                        If someone wants to show just how a virtual machine can solve the issue of running a Windows program without using Windows, then, fine. If not, then it seems to be a lot of words that don't have much to do with avoiding the "hated" Win 10. The OP "hates" win 10. I mostly just don't like being forced to update and discard older programs.

                        I don't "hate" win 10, to ME it is an annoyance, not a matter for a fuss. I know that I have to use it, or not run the programs, so I'm stuck. I also know I cannot run a host of older programs on Win 10, so I keep older machines. I expect there are many others in a similar position.

                        If the intent is to use a "windows lookalike" (I have been told they exist), then the software makers say that several of the most important programs almost certainly will not run right in those, because the ones they have looked at do not include all the "hooks" that are used.

                        Two programs involved are Alibre and Keyshot. The two are set up to work together, so if Keyshot (which I did not ask about) has a Linux version, I do not know about it. But it does not matter, BOTH need to use Linux to be of any use.

                        As far as newer machines, I just got a Dell G3-15-3590, with 6 cores, 16 gB, the latest NVIDIA, etc, etc. It's a good CAD machine, and cost half of what the nearest step-up does. It's a lot faster. I doubt it would run better if virtualized

                        The advantage I see to having a VM, as I understand them, is to be able to run older programs under an older OS on the same machine.

                        But if I have to run EVERYTHING in a VM to get that advantage, that is a hit I am not anxious to take.. The modeling and rendering is MUCH faster on this machine, but still not "instant" for large models. If I have to run Win 10, I want to run it directly.

                        If I could run XP under win 10, presumably in a VM, then that might be fine. However, the "compatibility" modes for past MS operating systems have not been able to run even accounting software decently, let alone more complex stuff. It would have to be a real XP running as if it were the only thing on the machine.


                        Last edited by J Tiers; 01-05-2020, 03:29 PM.
                        1601

                        Keep eye on ball.
                        Hashim Khan

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by J Tiers View Post


                          I said all I know is that if I ran win 10 in a VM, it seems that I am still running win 10, so how does that escape using windows? I have not, do not, and WILL not claim I know any damn thing about it other than it does not appear to me to have an advantage I care about, and all I see in it is using more "stuff" but not avoiding Windows.

                          If someone wants to show just how a virtual machine can solve the issue of running a Windows program without using Windows, then, fine. If not, then it seems to be a lot of words that don't have much to do with avoiding the "hated" Win 10. The OP "hates" win 10. I mostly just don't like being forced to update and discard older programs.
                          The advantages of running Windows within a VM can be significant. You can do all kinds of really cool things like setup a VM which has your application running in it and snapshot it. When you open that VM up, your application is instantly running within Windows. It's no different than clicking on a desktop icon for the application except that when you open it, it's already running in a window under windows. It's like pressing the suspend and resume button but even better and faster in a VM. You can save snapshots as separate VMs so you can basically have as many instances of VMs as you want. It can also solve many problems with devices/drivers. The OP had a problem with the mouse/touchpad and if he was running Windows in a VM, then windows would see the mouse device that the VM presents which is going to be a generic device which might actually provide better results than whatever driver he's currently using.

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                          • #88
                            It appears, then, that one is not avoiding running Win 10, but one may be able to run it in a way somewhat less annoying. That might be good. but of course is still running Windows, of whichever vintage is needed.

                            So if my goal is to sidestep using Windows, the long and short of the matter is still my original postulate: The only way to avoid Windows is to abandon one's existing programs and switch over to using substitute programs that do not require Windows. Not sure why that provoked a s***storm, as it still seems to be true, and pretty much is expected.

                            So, direct questions about VMs:

                            Is it possible to run a VM under Win 10 that has a legitimate copy of, say, XP, or even 3.1, running on it, and in that old OS, run old programs that require that particular old OS?

                            If one does that, will there be any difference in files, file retrieval/storage, etc, from running the same stuff directly?

                            1601

                            Keep eye on ball.
                            Hashim Khan

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              [QUOTE=Dave C;n1847068 ... Each time I launch Chrome, the user account window pops up and asks if I want to allow this program to make changes to my computer. In order to proceed I have to click "Yes" and Chrome launches. The only means to stop seeing this pop up that I have found is to lower the user account control slider to the never notify setting which I don't think would be a good idea. I've tried all slider positions and none makes any difference. this is not a major problem, just an annoyance that I could do without.[/QUOTE]

                              UAC is a safety feature that ensures you know when you have granted applications expanded privileges which might allow them to take over your computer. As such it is deliberately awkward to grant expanded privileges automatically. One approach to doing so is described here: https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/...dows-10-a.html

                              Not sure that will do what you want but it may be worth considering.
                              Location: Newtown, CT USA

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by J Tiers View Post
                                The advantage I see to having a VM, as I understand them, is to be able to run older programs under an older OS on the same machine.
                                That's one of the many benefits, and maybe the most important in your case.


                                Originally posted by J Tiers View Post
                                But if I have to run EVERYTHING in a VM to get that advantage, that is a hit I am not anxious to take.. The modeling and rendering is MUCH faster on this machine, but still not "instant" for large models. If I have to run Win 10, I want to run it directly.
                                You don't have to run everything in a VM. Your Windows 10 programs can run natively on your existing copy of Windows 10. Your older programs run in the VM. The only performance hit for your Windows 10 programs is the fact that the VM will be taking up some memory and CPU. You won't notice any difference while the programs in the VM are idling if you allocate a sensible amount of memory to the VM. If you shut down the VM (which takes only seconds with snapshots), then the VM won't use any memory or CPU. The VM software you would use (there are exceptions to this) is a program running on your existing OS. It's not a replacement of your OS.


                                Originally posted by J Tiers View Post
                                If I could run XP under win 10, presumably in a VM, then that might be fine. However, the "compatibility" modes for past MS operating systems have not been able to run even accounting software decently, let alone more complex stuff. It would have to be a real XP running as if it were the only thing on the machine.
                                Compatibility is almost a non-issue. The software in the VM runs under the full operating system is was designed for. The only times I have seen compatibility issues is with software that actively detects the VM and refuses to run under it. This was done in the past to stop people from abusing software licenses and trials. It's almost unheard of these days and was never very common.


                                Originally posted by J Tiers View Post
                                Is it possible to run a VM under Win 10 that has a legitimate copy of, say, XP, or even 3.1, running on it, and in that old OS, run old programs that require that particular old OS?
                                Yes. And as I mentioned in my earlier reply, you can even have the old program run on your Windows 10 desktop just like they were running on Windows 10 (instead of in a Window that looks like an XP desktop). There is a GUI performance hit for this, so I wouldn't use it for CAD software, but it works fine for most applications. This is not something you have to commit to upfront. You can turn it on, try it and turn it off if you don't like it. It's also done on a per-VM basis, so you can have one VM in Unity mode and one not (at the same time).

                                VMs will change the way you work if your needs are sufficiently complex.

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