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  • #46
    Originally posted by rickyb View Post

    This is what I tried to express in my first response to you. You are going in the right direction now. Couple of things still need to be addressed. Are you measuring and documenting the squareness of each measurement. Have you located the zero plane which should repeat at 180 degrees? (Or at least within your taper dimension.). Now measure again and again to see if you have repeatability. Next write the squareness on top of the pin for reference. Measure and log 0-90-180-270 on top of the pin. At this point you are ready to lap, not before. Your squareness checker still sounds iffy. The Suburban video does not show the base of the squareness gage. It will have a horizontal radiused blade that contacts the cylinder. I don't see working in 1/10s without one.
    Yes, it is all marked and measured every few times. Been at it since last night. Not close enough to document anything yet, wait till I get under a thou. It repeats OK but lapping is taking forever to remove anything significant. Setup is just fine, see pics. The cylinder rides against the sides of the vee with the indicator tip touching near the top. Turn it 180 and see how far out. Click image for larger version

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    25 miles north of Buffalo NY, USA

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    • #47
      I'm surprised at how square that is. I used to make wrist pins for Chevy V8's by the ton and the machine that cut the ends, a pointer is what we called them, had a couple of spinning heads with carbide cutters that fed in from both ends and cut them square and to length. This was done pre heat treat so I would expect some movement from heat treat. They didn't get machined after heat treat as far as I know.

      Brian
      OPEN EYES, OPEN EARS, OPEN MIND

      THINK HARDER

      BETTER TO HAVE TOOLS YOU DON'T NEED THAN TO NEED TOOLS YOU DON'T HAVE

      MY NAME IS BRIAN AND I AM A TOOLOHOLIC

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      • #48
        Originally posted by bborr01 View Post
        I'm surprised at how square that is. I used to make wrist pins for Chevy V8's by the ton and the machine that cut the ends, a pointer is what we called them, had a couple of spinning heads with carbide cutters that fed in from both ends and cut them square and to length. This was done pre heat treat so I would expect some movement from heat treat. They didn't get machined after heat treat as far as I know.

        Brian
        I worship the ground you walk on because I used to be a chevy freak. Had the performance parts manual with all the blueprints etc. 350's and 396 -- best engine ever made IMHO. I live about 20 miles from the Tonawanda Engine.

        This pin has the marks of lathe turning on the ends, but the OD is like glass. A file won't touch it anywhere, I wish I could add feet to it by cutting notches. But the only power tools I have now is a drill and a grinder. So I'm rebuilding civilization by hand, because I have plenty of time lately.
        25 miles north of Buffalo NY, USA

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        • #49
          Some time ago I've got an original new Cummins engine pin, hoping to make it into cylinder square. My pin is 2.5" in diameter by 4.5" long. Well, the ends were not ground and not square, but the OD had a nice surface finish and was within .0001" end to end. I decided to put it on a lathe the best I could and slightly face it on one side and create a relief. What's left of the face is .150" wide ring at the pin OD. Due to the extreme hardness of the pin I have used a CBN tool I had for ages.

          When I check it for squareness on the surface plate, I get about .0008" off. I hope I should be able to lap it square and my relief will help to speed up the process.
          I have attached a few pictures of my measuring setup. It is done with a Noga indicator stand and a 3/8" dowel pin. This way the engine pin is getting a point contact with 3/8" pin and measurement is very consistent. You can see a .0005" indicator on the pictures - that's all I need for now. This is the first time I am posting pictures on the new web site, let's hope for the best.

          I like the measuring setup in the attached video a couple of days ago, but I don't have it and cannot make it. I think my setup is pretty good. The mag base is lapped flat on the bottom and the magnet is on to hold the 3/8" pin in the same position.

          Maybe I should get a Faibanks Morse pin as well. It is longer that mine and I will have 2 squares this way... Click image for larger version

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          • #50
            This guy goes through lapping in a wrist pin:

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ofhek3Lbxkc

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            • #51
              The time needed to do the lapping is why I was suggesting that the bottom side be relieved much like what mikey describes above. And if you're fresh out of CBN inserts then even setting it up in the lathe and doing the relieving with a Dremel or similar with a grinding wheel will reduce the inner portion by a few thou and put the load on the outer part of the face.

              Not only would this make it faster to lap the narrower edge into trueness but it would also reduce the risk of a piece of dust "jacking" the face of the square off the plate. With a narrower edge we'd have a better chance of rolling such dust out from between the surfaces when we use that usual rub into position.
              Chilliwack BC, Canada

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              • #52
                Some of the guys that I worked with made their own cylinder squares but turning a piece of tool steel to a shape similar to the wrist pin only they didn't make them hollow all the way through. They would recess both ends and put centers in the recess. Then after heat treat they would OD grind them and check for taper with an electrolimit gauge. When the taper was gone they would side wheel the ends of the cylinder square. I used them for checking things like my 1,2,3 blocks and angle plates. It's amazing how little it takes to get a few tenths of taper in a 5 inch piece.

                Brian
                OPEN EYES, OPEN EARS, OPEN MIND

                THINK HARDER

                BETTER TO HAVE TOOLS YOU DON'T NEED THAN TO NEED TOOLS YOU DON'T HAVE

                MY NAME IS BRIAN AND I AM A TOOLOHOLIC

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                • #53
                  When I ran production making wrist pins I had a few lines of gang centerless grinders. Usually four grinders in a row with conveyors moving the parts between machines. We had very crude sizing gauges on each machine that would automatically adjust size of the OD. Probably not much taper in them after they went through the centerless grinders. I'm guessing that most all wrist pins are ground on centerless grinders.
                  OPEN EYES, OPEN EARS, OPEN MIND

                  THINK HARDER

                  BETTER TO HAVE TOOLS YOU DON'T NEED THAN TO NEED TOOLS YOU DON'T HAVE

                  MY NAME IS BRIAN AND I AM A TOOLOHOLIC

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by BCRider View Post
                    The time needed to do the lapping is why I was suggesting that the bottom side be relieved much like what mikey describes above. And if you're fresh out of CBN inserts then even setting it up in the lathe and doing the relieving with a Dremel or similar with a grinding wheel will reduce the inner portion by a few thou and put the load on the outer part of the face.

                    Not only would this make it faster to lap the narrower edge into trueness but it would also reduce the risk of a piece of dust "jacking" the face of the square off the plate. With a narrower edge we'd have a better chance of rolling such dust out from between the surfaces when we use that usual rub into position.
                    Yes, much as I would love to, but i have *no* power tools except for a bench grinder and a handheld drill. Hand tools only (bench stones, etc) Its just gonna take a while. With everything else, It'll probably be next week before I get this into an acceptable condition.
                    25 miles north of Buffalo NY, USA

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                    • #55
                      Doing it by hand takes time and patience, creeping up on the squareness and not having to go back is not easy. When its done, you will then have to get machinery to make things to test with your new square.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by nickel-city-fab View Post

                        I worship the ground you walk on because I used to be a chevy freak. Had the performance parts manual with all the blueprints etc. 350's and 396 -- best engine ever made IMHO. I live about 20 miles from the Tonawanda Engine.
                        WRONG
                        283 bowties ruled and rolled forever. 350 clunkomatics stunk from day 1


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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Franz© View Post

                          WRONG
                          283 bowties ruled and rolled forever. 350 clunkomatics stunk from day 1

                          283 was great, but I've never seen one on the road. I'll take a big-block 396 any day. Pure Torque. Was able to hit 140 going uphill with my Impala all I did was an HEI kit, trans kit, and tuned the q-jet.
                          25 miles north of Buffalo NY, USA

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by old mart View Post
                            Doing it by hand takes time and patience, creeping up on the squareness and not having to go back is not easy. When its done, you will then have to get machinery to make things to test with your new square.
                            Thanks! yep that's the plan. I had a few projects in mind that will need something like this. Right now the best "regular" square I have is only 50 x 75 MM (2x3 inches). I think I'll be needing something a bit bigger, so I'm trying to do this shop-made cylinder.
                            25 miles north of Buffalo NY, USA

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by nickel-city-fab View Post

                              283 was great, but I've never seen one on the road. I'll take a big-block 396 any day. Pure Torque. Was able to hit 140 going uphill with my Impala all I did was an HEI kit, trans kit, and tuned the q-jet.
                              283 was the biggest GM would put in my 4x4 in 66 when I had it built. They were honest enough to say a 348 or 409 would destroy the driveline. 409 had a terrible habit of blowing up in trucks. The revision to 350 left a lot on the factory floor, including torque and engine life.
                              4 barrel Rochesters also stunk. There is a cavity between castings that accumulates gas and delivers nasty surprises. Gene Tibble found the problem and had rubber fillers made to solve it.

                              HEI fits nicely into a 283 as long as you install a sufficient primary wire and a relay. Eliminates most of the nasty resistance to starting too. 66 4x4 is still in the yard with HEI & 2 barrel and still runs sweet.

                              MoPar went to hell in 72 when they reengineered the 318 for government desires. My 72 Duster came from the factory with a 6 cyl rear end so they could make the wheels turn. The 68 Fury 3 with 318 would run away from the Duster hauling about an extra 1000 pounds stop a lot shorter too. The 68 would also start on a rainy day.
                              Device called Delta Mark 10 B transistorized coil switch solved the problem on the 72.
                              US auto engineering took a fat crap around 70 to meet government standards.

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                              • #60
                                Well, I was gobsmacked by nickel-city-fab's generosity, he will be sending me a piston pin for us to have at the museum, many thanks, it will be cherished in our restoration workshop.

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