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  • #61
    Still working on this thing, it has been a bear to say the least. A "spark test" with the grinder shows that it is probably a medium-carbon steel, but it is too hard to file. I am going to try another approach to this shortly and report back. I am trying to chuck it in a 7x10 mini-lathe, and it looks ridiculous there -- takes up the entire working area. There is plenty of room if you remove the top slide altogether. Chucking it from the ID, because I don't have any OD jaws for this POS LSO. I have found that I can true it to .0005 like this, however.
    25 miles north of Buffalo NY, USA

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Franz© View Post
      4 barrel Rochesters also stunk. There is a cavity between castings that accumulates gas and delivers nasty surprises. Gene Tibble found the problem and had rubber fillers made to solve it.
      My Ames No. 3 came out of that plant and I often wonder which products it had been used for over the years. I also bought my Cataract from a fellow who worked in R&D there, had some good stories about changes through the years.
      Cayuga, Ontario, Canada

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      • #63
        Rochester was the home of both Products and a division of Delco. Delco origial plant was 5 floors covering 10 acres with a 4 track RR dock. The new plant was about 75 acres under roof on a single floor. Products had more acerage under roof and had to buy part of the old City dump to expand in the 70s. Dug out down to bedrock before they set piling and put up 20 more acres under roof. GM also had a fuel systems research lab here.
        The long history of Delco ended when GM sold the plant & product lines to Valeo because of Union crap.
        Valeo ran it a while and laid down the law, either Valeo's way to Valeo's standards or the plant closes. A few thousand Union members found out Valeo wasn't kidding. Some got close to $50k to retrain for their next employment. Program was similar to the murder of Kodak with Union added.

        Getting hired into either plant pretty much required motion pic film of parental procreation on GM property after all things like SubPay had to be kept in the family. Skilled trades could be hired in only with Union permission and had to be accompanied man for man by a Union thug at all times. Yes, they did come into the lavatory with you and stand at the stall door. I could stand by a machine and instruct a Union man which bolt to tighten but I couldn't touch a wrench, not even hold one.

        Last time I drove past Products there were less than 100 cars in the parking lot, most foreign product. Things are so bad the Rdman Club across the street that once brought cash in on paydays by armored car to cash checks closed up along with several other bars. UAW retirees get a new car allowance as part of their package. Doesn't have to be a UAW built car, just a new car to keep the industry rolling. My last wife was a GM girl from her first Corvair in 64 till 97. After listening to a few GM retirees talking about their retirements she bought her first Hyundai in 06. She would never again even look at a UAW product.

        Got no idea what's done inside Products now but they still haul in trailer loads of liquid Argon, Nitrogen and Oxygen and the vaporizers outside the building are frost covered every time I go by.

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        • #64
          Is it still Delco- Remy ? I remember AC- Delco. I think there was a merger somewhere along the lines there. I'm not much of a historian with all these companies.
          I lost track of them years ago when I quit playing with cars.

          JL...............

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          • #65
            Originally posted by JoeLee View Post
            Is it still Delco- Remy ? I remember AC- Delco. I think there was a merger somewhere along the lines there. I'm not much of a historian with all these companies.
            I lost track of them years ago when I quit playing with cars.

            JL...............
            DELCO = Detroit Electric COmpany, origin seems to have been in electric starting systems and generators. From there Delco moved into gasoline driven home gensets primarily in the 32 volt DC market, expanded to farm equipment, electric well pumps, electric fans, vacuum cleaners and refrigerators and freezers. Expansion appears to have been thru buying other manufacturers. World War 2 provided for huge expansion of volume & Delco was ready. The old plant in Rochester expanded as fast as bricks could be found and became landlocked which got worse after the war when cars rather than public transport brought people to and from work. Delco decided to move to the edge of the city where rail and the new truck transport would be available as well as access th the Barge Canal, and bought about 250 acres of what was then farmland. The new building took advantage of forklifts as they came into being as well as towmotor trains to overcome wasted time spent on elevators, and was all steel & concrete to eliminate the fire potential of wood. Parking for employees covered more and more acreage and Delco continued to grow and transition leaving behind appliances and concentrating on its core product electric motors and components.

            Delco also supported a large testing lab in Rochester for electric components, many claimed to better develop a predictable failure point beyond Warranty. If you knew somebody the lab insured you never paid for an electrical component, especially fan or window motor because Delco preferred real use failures for diagnosis over lab created failures. The lab was good enough to predict use life to dead by region the vehicle operated in and downengineer fan & wiper motors to increase need for replacements.

            Rochester was always DELCO, not Delco Remy. That was another division in another city. GM had been clever in plant siting to maximize GM labor access without becoming captive to the labor availability in any town. Delco Rochester had vast punchpress and stamping capacity, so GM used that to support Harrison Radiator in Lockport rather than duplicate capacity in Lockport. Eventually in the 80s that evolved into JIT delivery to Harrison serviced by half a dozen Toyota van Taxicabs. It was a good money job for the cabs with paid miles both ways.

            Rochester was long a city of immigrants from Europe who brought a spectrum of skills from sewing to machine tool operator, and between the wars a flood of new hands arrived. Even in the Depression GM saw this, and sought to enhance market position when the Depression ended by having facility and hands in place.
            GM think early on had sited Rochester Products in farmland a mile North of Delco at the end of the subway.
            This location becomes funny 10 years later when GM & Firestone teamed to kill street rail transport with busses on rubber tires.

            GM was also well aware after WW-2 that they had to compete with Kodak, Bausch & Lomb and a few hundred independent shops for hands and minds. All the companies had supply lines of hands reaching back into Europe as well as a reach out to second generation employees. Rochester employers expanded benefit and retirement programs to lock in employees. Employers in Rochester in the 50s also gave birth to United Way, then called Community Chest to minimize beggars on plant floors and at entrances as US manufacturing ignored Deming's solid advice. Delco wouldn't completely leave the old plant till the mid 60s, and used probably a third of it into the 70s as inventory storage for parts waiting to replace failed parts in the field.

            GM and Kodak jobs were cherished by Rochester workers. Both offered maximal benefits from cradle to grave for their workers, be they assembly line hands or management, Kodak being a little easier to get hired. Kodak was also NOT a union shop run by Mormons from the day George Eastman retired to the day some smart bustard at U of R brought in a Corporate Killer to liquidate Kodak for maximized quick money to investors. Delco died from Union demands that raised the cost of a forklift driver to $90,000 a year including benefits at the time of sale to Valeo. Kodak had even tried sending a complete product line to Mexico for affordable hands and lost that bet fast. GM sourced from the Pacific rim and terminated making simple constructs in house. Auctions of assets of both were very interesting.

            The final fire consuming old Delco took a week of extinguishing by city and surrounding departments concentrating mainly on protecting surrounding property. Still knocking the brick walls down would take a couple years to accomplish once somebody figured out who would pay to do the demolition. Lost to the fire were a large museum of printing, at least 10 machine shops, and thousands of tons of machines. Perhaps the greatest loss was the residence of a large wino/doper residence that had been in use for years. On the good side, I still have the searchlight I removed from the wartime gun tower protecting the Lyell Ave employee entrance.

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            • #66
              Franz, lots of history there. Do you research all this stuff before posting or remember it from past experiences.

              My old Simplicity lawn tractor has a Delco starter generator on it. That's 1964 vintage. I think the voltage regulator is also Delco, would have to check. There is a name stamped on the cover.

              Just dawned on me....... were getting side tracked here. The OP was about cylindrical squares.

              JL..................
              Last edited by JoeLee; 02-09-2020, 03:54 PM.

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              • #67
                I can imagine lots of searchlights and gun positions in Rochester, Kent, but whatever did Rochester NY need them for in WW2? Expecting a canuck invasion?

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                • #68
                  Mostly memory, bit of confirming of what I remember. Sad world of convenient revised & made up history annoys me, so I do my best to piss off the fat woman who writes her dreamed up crap. In 26 my old man built a new house with a cellar under the porch nobody noticed and a carp pond in the yard. Neighbors never figured out why his carp didn't freeze in winter. The pond provided condenser water for his still under the porch and very happy carp chewed spent mash for fish food. I really pissed off 120 people who sat thru a presentation rom a 30 year old 'Professor' on the subject of Rum Running in Prohibition. He clearly stated 1 Runner used a surplus WW-1 German Sub to shoot torpedoes full of alcy ashore on the S side of Sewer Ontario.
                  I asked how the gang got the sub into the sewer past the locks at Montreal since the only documented U Boat arrived in Rochester in 19 secured to the port side of Navy Tug Iroquois because nobody was brave enough to dive the boat since it was built for salt water displacement. I also pointed out German torpedos of the era were compressed air powered leaving room for maybe 2 gallons of Alcy. Nice lady in the audience called him down and it took me an hour to set the people on the right path.

                  Second question re ROC war involvement- Flip up your Edward Bernays filter and hold on tight.. US involvement in WW-2 began in 37. I can easily document with Rochester papers schools stopping teaching German even though there was a German newspaper. Late 37, statements by industrial managers and school officials about getting ready for the coming war. It wasn't just ROC, Boeing put the B-29 on the drawing board in 37, for sale to anybody who wanted one and had money.

                  Partial list of ROC War Contractors, Kodak, Bausch & Lomb, Pfaudler, General Railway Signal, Ritter Dental, American Laundry Machine, at least 5 clothing manufacturers from Hickey Freeman to Bond, along with Hickock Leather, Beachnut Packing, Wonder Bread, Gerber Baby food several tobacco processors, and my beloved American Excelsior. AND Odenbach Ship Building the MIRACLE according to politicians. Remember, the corrugated paper box only came into use around 45 so everything was in wood crates packed with paper and excelsior. Corrugated was a revolution in packing, first used for pipe insulation and converting Mason Jars to coffee holders for workers.

                  Rochester was an unreachable target for German bombs, but facts never bother politicians so ROC went nuts with FDR's programs to collect scrap, hang blackout curtains and of course give civilians on the homefront a sense of participation beyond eating short, minimizing oil consumption, reporting tire hoarders and Black Marketing, so Civilian Defense was formed and promoted. (I'll leave out the part about politicians making family richer) Thousands of fine American women put on surplus steel helmets from WW-1, secured their arm bands, checked their whistles and wore the heals off their shoes circling the block looking for light leaks between curtains in the dark. No street lights, not even the red light atop the corner fire alarm box, these brave ladies marched into the darkened world to protect vital Rochester from a Kraut bomber homing in on that crack of light, and when they found light they braced back to lampost or tree and blew that whistle till their malnourished body sank to its kenne as some 4F hump pedaled his bicycle toward the sound. That bicycle mounted Block Warden had a key to the Police box and full authority to kick in the offender's door to extinguish the light. There may be question as to the length of 4F's survival after kicking Sally's door but that's another story.

                  Not once did anyone question that them Kraut bomber drivers couldn't see searchlights or listen to any of 4 radio stations to find Rochester, or that they'd need to refuel at Quebec, Canada couldn't be trusted to not sell gas.
                  It was also inappropriate to note rubber collections were becoming mountains of wore out tires and rubber boots topped by unneeded douche bags nobody had found a use for, that rubber needed to be collected and piled. A few piles that didn't burn rotted into the middle 50s and some got covered with dirt for playgrounds.

                  The interval between WW-2 and Korea was highly profitable for some. In 48 & 49 every store that could line up a supplier was selling TV sets in and around Rochester. Sales slowed considerably in 50 when people who owned TVs learned the first Rochester station wouldn't be broadcasting till late 52. The Korean thing was taking vital components and Stromberg Carlson was back on war production to fill voids caused by dumping needed war material into the ocean from ships in mid Pacific.

                  I'll admit sitting on top of crated Norden Bomb Sights finalized and inspected by B&L and Kodak, and sadly admit not helping myself to one.

                  You may now flip your Bernays shield back down and once again believe Japan attacked first at Pearl Harbor.
                  Society needs you to believe that story.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Franz© View Post
                    It wasn't just ROC, Boeing put the B-29 on the drawing board in 37, for sale to anybody who wanted one and had money.
                    I'm curious where you heard that because indications are that the B-29 was designed to meet a spec issued by the Air Corps in Dec 1939. In 1937, they would have been pushing sales of what would become the B-17B.

                    Originally posted by Franz© View Post
                    You may now flip your Bernays shield back down and once again believe Japan attacked first at Pearl Harbor.
                    Society needs you to believe that story.
                    A controversial statement. What do you consider the "first shot"? The sinking of the Japanese midget sub? The US oil embargo?
                    Last edited by Galaxie; 02-09-2020, 10:49 PM.
                    Location: Northern WI

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Galaxie View Post
                      I'm curious where you heard that because indications are that the B-29 was designed to meet a spec issued by the Air Corps in Dec 1939. In 1937, they would have been pushing sales of what would become the B-17B.

                      Firrst understand 37 was an interesting year in the Great Depression, initially predicted to be the last year of the Depression leading to a bigger crash than 29. Boeing had large facilities to maintain and considerable desire to build something/anything that could be sold at that time.
                      The apparent future market was war planes, and Boeing built big planes, not fighters.

                      B-29 was totally initiated and funded by Boeing in 37 as a company project when Boeing became aware of the Horton Ho 18 America bomber making progress in Germany. In 38 Boeing began testing of subassemblies for durability on the proposed flights.
                      In 39 Charles Lindburg sat with Hap Arnold and convinced Hap why Army Air needed a long range bomber since it was Lindberg's presumption the US and Canada would be fighting Germany alone after England fell. Arnold agreed and cut the contract with Boeing since they were 2 years into the project and possibly the only US builder who could do the job.
                      First one flew officially in September 42 and initial delivery to Army Air started in 43.
                      Boeing History.


                      A controversial statement. What do you consider the "first shot"? The sinking of the Japanese midget sub? The US oil embargo?
                      Completely disregarding the German sinkings of US Navy ships, first US boots on the ground were into French Indochina then Japanese Indochina in 39 when US boots arrived to teach Uncle Ho's people gurilla warfare employing tunnels and the proper use of those nice General Electric cannons we'd later dig out of hills around Contien. Those boots were very good teachers. Japan was the new landlord of the Indochina peninsula signed over to them by France in 39. Of course that politely ignores the actions of General Lejune touring the Pacific as Commandant of VMI. There had been growing displeasure between Japan and the US and Britain over the 5-5-3 treaty and it wasn't getting better. Still Japan had cash on deposit in the US, and was buying oil and metal at US prices.

                      Moving into 41 there was pressure for the US to get into "europe's war" from politicians and great resistance to do so from the Congress, citizens and manufacturers selling to all with cash. In November 41 FDR instructed his staff that there could be no Embargo of either oil or metal going to Japan because it would provoke war. Japan's plan was to invade and take the Queen's oil in Dutch East India. FR ordered the cable between Hawayi and Jakarta severed in November upon learning the Dutch Admiral in Jakarta was providing intel to Kimmel & Short at Pearl. That left RCA Radiogram as the only communication between Admirals & Generals of both nations expecting attack from Japan.

                      Also in November Team FDR hatched a brainstorm to lock down all Japanese assets and money on deposit in the US, effectively ending shipments of oil and metal to Japan.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Franz© View Post
                        B-29 was totally initiated and funded by Boeing in 37 as a company project when Boeing became aware of the Horton Ho 18 America bomber making progress in Germany. In 38 Boeing began testing of subassemblies for durability on the proposed flights.
                        I think you're conflating three different projects. In March 1938, Boeing started a design study called the Model 334 for a pressurized variant of the B-17. In Dec 1939, following the previously mentioned Air Corps request, they began work on Model 341, but the specs were amended and work was shifted to Model 345 in March 1940. The Model 345 was what eventually became the XB-29. I don't think it's accurate to say the B-29 dates back to 1937.

                        The Horten Ho18 (or H.XVIII) was never built so I'm skeptical Boeing would have had any knowledge of it until 1945. The "Ural bomber" program (Dornier Do19, Junkers Ju89, Heinkel He177) is a more likely candidate for Boeing to have heard of as the more well-known "Amerikabomber" program didn't really get going until 1942.


                        Originally posted by Franz© View Post
                        Completely disregarding the German sinkings of US Navy ships, first US boots on the ground were into French Indochina then Japanese Indochina in 39 when US boots arrived to teach Uncle Ho's people gurilla warfare employing tunnels and the proper use of those nice General Electric cannons we'd later dig out of hills around Contien. Those boots were very good teachers. Japan was the new landlord of the Indochina peninsula signed over to them by France in 39. Of course that politely ignores the actions of General Lejune touring the Pacific as Commandant of VMI. There had been growing displeasure between Japan and the US and Britain over the 5-5-3 treaty and it wasn't getting better. Still Japan had cash on deposit in the US, and was buying oil and metal at US prices.

                        Moving into 41 there was pressure for the US to get into "europe's war" from politicians and great resistance to do so from the Congress, citizens and manufacturers selling to all with cash. In November 41 FDR instructed his staff that there could be no Embargo of either oil or metal going to Japan because it would provoke war. Japan's plan was to invade and take the Queen's oil in Dutch East India. FR ordered the cable between Hawayi and Jakarta severed in November upon learning the Dutch Admiral in Jakarta was providing intel to Kimmel & Short at Pearl. That left RCA Radiogram as the only communication between Admirals & Generals of both nations expecting attack from Japan.

                        Also in November Team FDR hatched a brainstorm to lock down all Japanese assets and money on deposit in the US, effectively ending shipments of oil and metal to Japan.
                        Earlier, you implied that the Japanese did not attack first at Pearl Harbor. However, putting advisors in Fr. Indochina, stopping exports, or freezing assets in response to aggression by Japan does not rise to the level of a "first attack" by the US. Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you were trying to say?

                        Location: Northern WI

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                        • #72
                          This is getting political..... and needs closed

                          The statementa by Franz seem to be saying in essence that FDR was trying to get into the war, trying to get an attack that would provoke it. And I think it is relatively clear from history that the theory is actually true.
                          2730

                          Keep eye on ball.
                          Hashim Khan


                          It's just a box of rain, I don't know who put it there.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by J Tiers View Post
                            This is getting political..... and needs closed
                            Ya. Thanks loads, guys. The ONE thread that I started, gets derailed and shut down. By all means let's shut this one down, that was 80 yrs ago.
                            25 miles north of Buffalo NY, USA

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                            • #74
                              This isn't politics; it's history. By the way, most historians still disagree with that long running "FDR provoked it" theory (I have heard it referred to the "back door to war" theory.)
                              Location: Northern WI

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Galaxie View Post
                                This isn't politics; it's history. By the way, most historians still disagree with that long running "FDR provoked it" theory (I have heard it referred to the "back door to war" theory.)
                                Does this website look like a history website? Does this thread look like a history thread? No? I consider this to be an abandoned thread.
                                25 miles north of Buffalo NY, USA

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