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  • BCRider
    replied
    An window unit might be a nice idea depending on how cold it gets in winter. I understand that heat pumps can get pretty expensive to run if there's is a big temperature difference between outside and inside.

    And using a heat pump that does cost to run it puts that much more emphasis on starting with a really good insulation job.

    Leave a comment:


  • ulav8r
    replied
    I have read of heat pump window units and split units being available.

    Leave a comment:


  • darryl
    replied
    How hot does the shop get in summer? Maybe you need to consider a combined heat/cool system. I wonder if you could run a heat pump and minimize the energy use to do the actual heating. A costly start-up but economical use- maybe never get your money back- does there exist an affordable heat pump that would be suitable?

    One thing is true- you would always appreciate a shop that is warm enough at any time.

    Leave a comment:


  • I make chips
    replied
    I have a 30x30 foot garage that is well insulated, drywalled, ten foot ceiling etc. When it's as low as 5f degrees the furnace I use which is only 30,000 btu output will take a couple hours to get the room up to around 70f. Then it just coasts and doesn't switch on but maybe once per hour. *If I was doing it again, I'd get 50,000 or 60,000 btu just to heat the place faster. I picked it up NOS off of craigslist for 300 bucks so I jumped on it.

    It's a pretty slick nat gas fired counterflow furnace. Heated air is pushed out the lower screen for a better chance at keeping the warm down low. It's wall mounted and I located it over one of the windows so venting it didn't require anything cut in the walls etc. I removed the window and made a two panel plywood form to match the frame. This is about 3 inches thick with styrofoam forming that sandwich. The vent and combustion air intake go through it and outdoors. If I ever want to take it out all I do is pop the window back in. As it basically is an apartment furnace it's virtually silent.

    It's a Williams furnace. Here's the link. https://www.williamscomfortprod.com/...w-detail-page/
    Attached Files
    Last edited by I make chips; 02-09-2020, 10:03 PM.

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  • BigMike782
    replied
    32’x32’ pole building well insulated.
    45,000 btu hot dawg heater to keep it at 55 degrees of off a 500 gallon tank.
    32,000 btu reverberay radiant heater used on 100, 40 or whatever I can get when I am working to take the chill off.
    no issues with moisture or co.
    Last edited by BigMike782; 02-09-2020, 06:37 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • QSIMDO
    replied
    Haven't read the whole thread but one thing I learned about sizing a heater; don't do it based on square/cubic feet alone!
    My garage is well insulated, 8400 cubic feet and is only my welding shop as the machines are in the basement but, with the wife's car in there and
    saws, grinders, etc. it's a LOT of metal to heat up.
    I have a 30k btu Hot Dawg and, while it does the job, could have easily gone larger. 45k-50k btu at least.

    Leave a comment:


  • BCRider
    replied
    ….Lets not forget that big hunk of concrete....
    Yep, there's no doubt that the floor becomes an actual heat source when the outside temperature is below freezing. My previous shop was insulated and only heated for an hour or two before I went out for the day and while I was in the shop. But at no time did the water by the grinder ever freeze. The ground warmth combined with half way decent wall and ceiling insulation did the trick. It was also nice in the summer when the coolness of the floor made the shop a little cooler than the outside.

    All of the last few posts from us all are pointing to the same thing. Namely that your best bang for the buck is to start with insulation. You mentioned that is what you'd start with a few posts back. And you won't regret doing that.

    While you are at it look at how you will use the shop. In my case I only turn on the heat an hour before I start working. But my metal shop is an attached garage. So between the insulation and ground warmth and the little heat that leaks out through the common wall it's sort of half way warm to start with. And the electric 4800W blue cube of a thing is more than enough to get things nice and cozy in my 570 sq ft shop. Even on the coldest of days I've figured out roughly that the cost for power is right around a buck and a half or at worst a couple of bucks to heat the shop for the day. And I don't leave it on overnight. Although if I was going to do a consistent two or three day effort I might turn it down to something minimal overnight in such a case.

    A buddy with a detached shop has the slightly higher output 6000W version. He does leave it running on minimal power and uses a ceiling fan in the tall ceiling shop to keep the condensation issue at bay. His shop power use is something like $50 to $60 a month over the house bill for the low standby temperature plus turning things up when he's in his shop.

    Leave a comment:


  • Franz©
    replied
    I always enjoy these threads. I'll just toss in Propane is a wonderfuel that produces heat, Co2 and water as product of combustion. No need to discuss the het part. Co2 + water does combine to become Carbonic Acid though, and that should be a consideration. Remember how yummy the breathing air was in a contained area with propane forklifts running around and minimal air exchanges? What do you think Carbonic Acid does to iron???

    I think I'll also mention the 10 ton elephant in the equation. All that iron either remains happy at a constant temperature or changes dimensions as it heats & cools. Lets not forget that big hunk of concrete that could with minor modification become a positive in the situation as a thermal battery rather than the huge heatsink it currently is.

    Electric heat is still an option, IF you can afford it, and it remains available in your area. This area has already reached the point of shortage that requires Sewer Ontario to be maintained above 1950 flood level so it can run water thru turbines to supply welfare AC machines. Windmills ain't cutting the mustard and Solar voltaic fields are being planted fast as they can be. Good thing we got very few industrial electron consumers.

    Leave a comment:


  • kendall
    replied
    I agree insulate. I always use fiberglass rolls, except for blown in cellulose it's the cheapest for the R value. Cover with OSB halfway up then drywall. Use plywood/OSB instead of drywall where you want shelves or cabinets.

    For a few years I used a propane RV furnace (small forced air w/thermostat) I took out of a wrecked camper trailer in a 12x16 shop. It would keep the shop comfortably warm for a month using 3 20lb tanks. (turned down at night and off when I wasn't planning to go in for a while) The shop was well insulated. I've always lived in the boonies, so natural gas was never an option.
    You can often find low cost used furnaces at heating/ac shops from people who want to upgrade or built additions and needed a larger furnace.

    I'd stay away from any non vented heaters, they toss out too much moisture.

    One trick I've used a lot is to mount heat lamps over my work areas, it keeps the hands and tools warm when assembling things. Another is when you feel chilled in the shop, take a 10 minute walk outside, when you come back in it will feel toasty.

    Leave a comment:


  • BCRider
    replied
    Originally posted by cijuanni View Post

    An old Fisher.
    Softwood, that is all that is around here and makes lots of light and powdery ash. Anytime you open the door the heat transferring out carries along a puff of ash. Even very carefully shoveling it out makes a mess.
    The walls aren't black or anything, just everything gets a fine layer of 'dust'.

    If the wood isn't seasoned well it puts a light coating of creosote on the inside of the stove, pipe, flue, door, etc. When you open the door that hot creosote smokes and burns off the door with the fresh air.

    Probably doesn't help that I live in a canyon with odd thermal currents and inversion.
    Typically the smoke comes out at 14ft flue then drops down to 4 to 10 ft above grade and slowly wafts down the canyon at that elevation.

    Plus because the wood is beetle killed, under the bark is riddled with beetle paths and beetle poop which falls everywhere when you handle it.

    Cracking the door, waiting a few minutes, opening slowly helps, but still it is messy compared to dialing a thermostat.
    My sister and BiL heat their place which is out in the country exclusively with wood burned in an airtight. And what they do sounds just like your procedure. And ya, while it can be minimized there's no doubt it is dusty. It's inside their house (double wide mobile) so they take the extra care as you're saying but it's still messy during the occasional ashing out days. And because it's in the house it tends to get cleaned and vacuumed more than a shop would get. That's likely the difference between you "spring cleaning" your shop periodically and them seeming to have a clean place all the time in spite of the stove burning all winter.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tundra Twin Track
    replied
    Originally posted by Ohio Mike View Post

    If its an open ceiling start there. When I had the new shop built (post building) I had them do a ceiling kit. Its white steel siding with 1" of foil backed foam under it. Eventually it will get insulation blown in on top of that. Right now I have 1" in the ceiling and 1.5 inch of foam in the walls which will eventually be 4.5 inches of foam. Should be nice a toasty when complete.
    My shop is post building also and spent extra on insulation and real pleased with it,it can get real cold at times so helps on gas bill plus nice and cool in summer.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ohio Mike
    replied
    Originally posted by Dunc View Post
    Thanks for all the help. Looks like the first order of business is insulation.
    If its an open ceiling start there. When I had the new shop built (post building) I had them do a ceiling kit. Its white steel siding with 1" of foil backed foam under it. Eventually it will get insulation blown in on top of that. Right now I have 1" in the ceiling and 1.5 inch of foam in the walls which will eventually be 4.5 inches of foam. Should be nice a toasty when complete.

    Leave a comment:


  • cijuanni
    replied
    Originally posted by BCRider View Post

    Cijuanni, what sort of stove do you have?
    An old Fisher.
    Softwood, that is all that is around here and makes lots of light and powdery ash. Anytime you open the door the heat transferring out carries along a puff of ash. Even very carefully shoveling it out makes a mess.
    The walls aren't black or anything, just everything gets a fine layer of 'dust'.

    If the wood isn't seasoned well it puts a light coating of creosote on the inside of the stove, pipe, flue, door, etc. When you open the door that hot creosote smokes and burns off the door with the fresh air.

    Probably doesn't help that I live in a canyon with odd thermal currents and inversion.
    Typically the smoke comes out at 14ft flue then drops down to 4 to 10 ft above grade and slowly wafts down the canyon at that elevation.

    Plus because the wood is beetle killed, under the bark is riddled with beetle paths and beetle poop which falls everywhere when you handle it.

    Cracking the door, waiting a few minutes, opening slowly helps, but still it is messy compared to dialing a thermostat.
    Last edited by cijuanni; 02-08-2020, 10:56 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Paul Alciatore
    replied
    First, I would never trust that propane heater in an enclosed space. It may be good if you have to work outdoors and need a blast of heat, but beyond that you are asking for CO2 problems and possibly even death. Don't do it.

    Check list: 1. This is the HOME Shop Machinist board. So no penny-pinching boss/owner who sits in a heated office is involved. OK.

    In the past two decades I have had two home shops. One was in a trailer in Iowa and the present one is in my garage in south Texas. Both had heat in the winter and AC in the summer. That was both for my comfort and because I wanted a fairly constant temperature for both my machining equipment and my electronic stuff. Iowa shop was heated with a propane furnace that WAS VENTED to the outside. My present shop has electric heat in the AC unit.

    Insulation: Both of my shops were insulated and I did my best to seal air leaks. When I retired and started setting up my garage shop one of the first things I did was to tear the wall boards off the exterior walls and add fiberglass insulation. The cost was minimal and it took me only a few partial days of work. Every dollar you spend on insulation will come back ten fold in later savings. DO IT!

    Full time vs. intermittent? I am going to assume that you are still working and you use your home shop nights and weekends. Probably only for a couple of hours at a stretch, perhaps somewhat longer on Saturday. If you walk into a freezing cold shop and turn the heat on, it will be an hour or more before the air in the room comes up. Your heater will be running full tilt for all or most of that time. There goes half your weeknight work time. And all the machines will still be real cold. So your hands will still be gripping ice cubes. Seems to me that it is just not worth it. I run my shop heat all the time. I turn the thermostat down when I am not there and turn it up an hour or so before I plan to work. My temperatures are 68F when it is not occupied and 70 to 72F when I am working. The machines stay at a suitable temperature year round. But, that's me. You can suit yourself. In the summer I just reverse those numbers.

    In your case I would consider one or two of those oil filled, radiator style, electric heaters that places like WalMart sell. They do work and they have a thermostat control so you can regulate the heat. And they are totally SAFE: no radiant heating element that could start a fire and no CO2. I used them as back-up heat in my Iowa trailers and still have two of them that I have used in my present shop when the AC's heater was out. More than once they kept my Iowa trailers from freezing in the Iowa winters when the propane heaters broke.

    https://www.walmart.com/ip/Mainstays...hite/681622973

    Leave a comment:


  • Franz©
    replied
    Only had 2 problems with wood burning here, first was only 1 dummy in the house knew how to load the stove & haul out the ash, and the second was I was that dummy.

    Leave a comment:

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